Bondin' Jimmy (2-A Mario Bonds UES CRT)

[JPTheGamer]

Can anyone explain what's been concluded and the arguments for and against? All I know about this verse is the basic outline, so please try to put it in a way that can be understood.

What are the current points of contention of this thread's topic?

My apologies for not keeping up, I haven't been too on-site last few days. Probably won't be for a while.

I guess "Creation" would be better than ED, but either way I disagree with it scaling to physicals. My reason is I don't think the UES is valid, and also I still don't think he's directly creating the universes as I've outlined in previous debates.

Disagreement. With the note that I'm fine with empowerment based on emotions for the verse and a non-physicals rating for Reclusa based on his ability to indirectly create dream worlds.

I'm leaning more with armor here personally and would say the low 2-C is fine

Okay so I found what means "everything" すべて and turns out "all things" is actually 万物 which definitely not what is said however 万物 means all things of the universe while すべて seems to mean everything together as part of a set I used a combination of Google Translate and wiktionary to figure this out so nuance is probably lost on me and it could be wrong but it supports the localization. Also even in Japanese it is implied the world would still exist.

Alright, I'm gonna reiterate my replies since I feel like a lot's being slept on...

Within one of Dr. Vulko's notes, it's strongly implied that Connectar, which is the primary energy source of Concordia holds "limitless power", and later states the Bonds of family, friendship and love produce Connectar along with the Uni-Tree. Per the Tiering System FAQ, infinite power of one thing is generally described to be High 3-A. The Bonds are also stated to transcend the world, and everything exists precisely because everything in the world is born from the energy of the Bonds due to one's 'connections' with someone. The entire Super Mario Cosmology is currently 2-A, and affecting one to infinite 4-dimensional spacetime continuums is well within the Tier 2 range. By this logic, it should mean:

• The Uni-Tree and the Bonds are at the very least High Universe level seeing as how they're producing Concordia with limitless power
• The Bonds transcending the world and everything in the world existing because of the Bonds places them at Universe level+ to Multiverse level+

The OP is right on Bonds meeting criteria from the Universal Energy Systems...

Does it qualify?

As we've established, it follows the rules of a UES. I will be quoting the page directly:

"a character or the system they are using must have explanations or showings that indicate that the powers which should scale to each other draw from the same source of power [1]

Bonds are a Multiversal constant, making up existence itself. They can be used to amplify the power of physical attacks, as well as magic attacks through methods like Bros Bomb or Battle Plugs, which can improve potency of either, lining up with this quality.

Glohm can be similarly used, notably on Bosses to improve the power of all of their attacks to an equal degree, boost any chosen stat, or a durability amp using shields that protect against all attacks equally. Glohm is also a Multiversal constant, coming from Reclusa.


"... Alternatively, it would also suffice to show that the user can invest similar amounts of power into any given technique, should they want to." [2] ...

Bonds and Glohm can be converted between each other, and the amount of power used scales equally to the power of the attack being used e.g. Battle Plug recharge time and charge amount scaling in accordance to how powerful the plug was.

A good example is Reclusa's death converting all things related to and made from Glohm into Bond Energy.


Additionally, they have to demonstrate or have reliable statements that all their supernatural or otherwise non-physical powers scale to each other in Attack Potency. Hence an increase in power / energy should correspond to a proportional increase in the potency of their powers and abilities [3]"

As mentioned above, Bonds and Glohm can empower both physical and non-physical attacks proportionally, and all of them scale to each other in accordance to the amount utilized.

Everyone can use Bonds, but incredibly skilled characters or artifacts are required for Bonds to be used in combat.

As for Glohm, Reclusa can use it to an unlimited extent, and give its power to anyone he desires, like Zokket.

The two forces are able to exchange blows, both physical and non-physical, in combat. As established, Bonds and Glohm are interchangeable, equal forces, exemplified by the existence of Spite Bulbs, Sprite Bulbs (Bond Fairies) disconnected from Bond Energy, which have their power replaced by Glohm thanks to Reclusa, and Reclusa turning into Bond Energy upon his death.

...and it fits even more criteria which was posted later on in this thread. To correctly reiterate the third qualification in this part the OP listed, as I stated before in my previous post here, the UES page says:

In order to qualify for a Universal Energy System and do scaling according to it, a character or the system they are using needs to fulfill all criteria for a Non-physical Energy System. Additionally, they have to demonstrate that they can channel their power through their own bodies in a way that quantifiably enhances them or otherwise allows scaling of their supernatural powers through their physicals. Hence there should be evidence that an increase in power / energy should correspond to a proportional increase in the potency of their physical statistics. In the rare case that it is relevant for scaling the reverse should also be demonstrated: That a feat of non-empowered physical strength applies to the amount of supernatural power. Visual evidence of amplification is not considered necessary.

This section of the page clearly tells us visual evidence of amplification isn't considered necessary; just that they have to demonstrate that they can channel their power through their own bodies in a way that quantifiably enhances them or otherwise allows scaling of their supernatural powers through their physicals, and there should be evidence that an increase in power / energy should correspond to a proportional increase in the potency of their physical statistics. The blog and the OP listed a few instances of the Bonds being used to enhance others and allow users to channel that power through their bodies:

• Bowser and his minions are stated to gain strength from Bonds in Brothership.
• We are also shown that they have the ability to amplify the power of both physical and non-physical/magical attacks. For instance, Mario and Luigi are able to infuse their hammers with Bonds to deal damage in the thousands on Reclusa's ~52560 HP (1086+1740+2404+4066+6659+8892+9137+8601+9975). If you don't attack with bond power, you'll only do around 80 damage per hit.
• Earlier in the game, after Mario and Luigi battle Gorumbla, Wilma, his Aunt, gives him a "Tough Love Punch" after infusing herself with Bond energy. Snoutlet notes her to be even stronger than Mario and Luigi when they aren't amplified at that point of the game, Wilma is also able to build warp pipes that work due to Connectar, a form of Bonds, further establishing Chakron's statement.
• In terms of magic, Mario and Luigi can use a Bros Bomb attack, which combines Bonds with both Fire and Ice to deal significant damage, along with Battle Plugs.

All these instances meet that part of the UES standards of the page; furthermore, DDM stated another rule from the page in this reply:

If the power source or universal energy system should be removed from a user by some means that should result in a notable loss in physical strength or alternatively even in physical harm or death. That doesn't necessarily mean that they should be reduced to the level of regular humans, though. Note that removal of energy sources can also have detrimental effects if they are not universal and as such negative effects of removal do not necessarily imply universalness.

This is proven when the Mario Bros beat Glohm Bowser and Glohm Gorumbla because when the Glohm leaves them upon their defeat, they revert back into their base forms and statistics while unconscious; not to mention the Bros are battling them with and WITHOUT the Bonds. With all these indicators combined, this must prove THE BONDS ACT AS A UES; even if it doesn't, the evidence of them acting as a stat amp is so blatant it's hard to ignore and not place on the profiles.

The "eradicating all Bonds from the multiverse" part is lacking context; the full statement from Shun is actually this:

Everyone carries some Glohm with them. Dark feelings... Loneliness... Disconnectedness... Reclusa's a monster that turns lonely feelings into energy. And he's been around since long before any of us were born. He hatches from an egg and fills the world with loneliness... When his power is up, he recharges in his egg. If we don't stop him... he'll keep doing that, again, and again.

But this DOESN'T mean Reclusa DOESN'T scale to the Bonds or his dream manipulation; in fact, Reclusa implied he previously broke everyone's connections in many other worlds and all that awaited them was a slow demise. The Glohm is the exact same substance Reclusa used to make the dreams, and it's also the same substance that was used to empower characters like Bowser and Gorumbla, whom Mario and Luigi defeated. The Soli-Tree is basically a warped, evil, dark version of the Uni-Tree; it was formed by Reclusa after he hatched from his egg when he first encountered the Mario Bros, and mind you, this is the exact same egg he recharges in.

Before anybody states Creation Feats need proof that they scale to physicals, I heavily implore you to watch the fights between Glohm Bowser and Glohm Gorumbla; they're shown to use techniques like Glohm-infused punches and shell attacks. Are they displaying explicit Tier 2 feats like universe/multiversal destruction or creation during these fights? Of course not, but this is generally how a lot of pages on this wiki operate:

• Sonic and Son Goku haven't displayed Low Multiverse destruction on a constant everyday regular basis, yet there's at least one or a few instances of them scaling to characters on these tiers or have displayed one or a few instances of things like shaking the Macrocosm.
• As someone who's worked on both the Hellboy and Spawn franchises/verses, while characters like Liz Sherman or Satan haven't constantly displayed Low 1-C or 7-B feats, they still sit on those tiers because they've performed the feat at least once.

None of these instances I listed are treated as outliers by the wiki, and we shouldn't be doing the same thing to characters like Mario, Luigi, and Reclusa in this thread. (And honestly, Idc if this is whataboutism because that's not the point).

 

[Galactidot]

Alright, I'm gonna reiterate my replies since I feel like a lot's being slept on...

Within one of Dr. Vulko's notes, it's strongly implied that Connectar, which is the primary energy source of Concordia holds "limitless power", and later states the Bonds of family, friendship and love produce Connectar along with the Uni-Tree. Per the Tiering System FAQ, infinite power of one thing is generally described to be High 3-A. The Bonds are also stated to transcend the world, and everything exists precisely because everything in the world is born from the energy of the Bonds due to one's 'connections' with someone. The entire Super Mario Cosmology is currently 2-A, and affecting one to infinite 4-dimensional spacetime continuums is well within the Tier 2 range. By this logic, it should mean:

• The Uni-Tree and the Bonds are at the very least High Universe level seeing as how they're producing Concordia with limitless power
• The Bonds transcending the world and everything in the world existing because of the Bonds places them at Universe level+ to Multiverse level+

The OP is right on Bonds meeting criteria from the Universal Energy Systems...

...and it fits even more criteria which was posted later on in this thread. To correctly reiterate the third qualification in this part the OP listed, as I stated before in my previous post here, the UES page says:

This section of the page clearly tells us visual evidence of amplification isn't considered necessary; just that they have to demonstrate that they can channel their power through their own bodies in a way that quantifiably enhances them or otherwise allows scaling of their supernatural powers through their physicals, and there should be evidence that an increase in power / energy should correspond to a proportional increase in the potency of their physical statistics. The blog and the OP listed a few instances of the Bonds being used to enhance others and allow users to channel that power through their bodies:

• Bowser and his minions are stated to gain strength from Bonds in Brothership.
• We are also shown that they have the ability to amplify the power of both physical and non-physical/magical attacks. For instance, Mario and Luigi are able to infuse their hammers with Bonds to deal damage in the thousands on Reclusa's ~52560 HP (1086+1740+2404+4066+6659+8892+9137+8601+9975). If you don't attack with bond power, you'll only do around 80 damage per hit.
• Earlier in the game, after Mario and Luigi battle Gorumbla, Wilma, his Aunt, gives him a "Tough Love Punch" after infusing herself with Bond energy. Snoutlet notes her to be even stronger than Mario and Luigi when they aren't amplified at that point of the game, Wilma is also able to build warp pipes that work due to Connectar, a form of Bonds, further establishing Chakron's statement.
• In terms of magic, Mario and Luigi can use a Bros Bomb attack, which combines Bonds with both Fire and Ice to deal significant damage, along with Battle Plugs.

All these instances meet that part of the UES standards of the page; furthermore, DDM stated another rule from the page in this reply:

This is proven when the Mario Bros beat Glohm Bowser and Glohm Gorumbla because when the Glohm leaves them upon their defeat, they revert back into their base forms and statistics while unconscious; not to mention the Bros are battling them with and WITHOUT the Bonds. With all these indicators combined, this must prove THE BONDS ACT AS A UES; even if it doesn't, the evidence of them acting as a stat amp is so blatant it's hard to ignore and not place on the profiles.

The "eradicating all Bonds from the multiverse" part is lacking context; the full statement from Shun is actually this:

Everyone carries some Glohm with them. Dark feelings... Loneliness... Disconnectedness... Reclusa's a monster that turns lonely feelings into energy. And he's been around since long before any of us were born. He hatches from an egg and fills the world with loneliness... When his power is up, he recharges in his egg. If we don't stop him... he'll keep doing that, again, and again.

But this DOESN'T mean Reclusa DOESN'T scale to the Bonds or his dream manipulation; in fact, Reclusa implied he previously broke everyone's connections in many other worlds and all that awaited them was a slow demise. The Glohm is the exact same substance Reclusa used to make the dreams, and it's also the same substance that was used to empower characters like Bowser and Gorumbla, whom Mario and Luigi defeated. The Soli-Tree is basically a warped, evil, dark version of the Uni-Tree; it was formed by Reclusa after he hatched from his egg when he first encountered the Mario Bros, and mind you, this is the exact same egg he recharges in.

Before anybody states Creation Feats need proof that they scale to physicals, I heavily implore you to watch the fights between Glohm Bowser and Glohm Gorumbla; they're shown to use techniques like Glohm-infused punches and shell attacks. Are they displaying explicit Tier 2 feats like universe/multiversal destruction or creation during these fights? Of course not, but this is generally how a lot of pages on this wiki operate:

• Sonic and Son Goku haven't displayed Low Multiverse destruction on a constant everyday regular basis, yet there's at least one or a few instances of them scaling to characters on these tiers or have displayed one or a few instances of things like shaking the Macrocosm.
• As someone who's worked on both the Hellboy and Spawn franchises/verses, while characters like Liz Sherman or Satan haven't constantly displayed Low 1-C or 7-B feats, they still sit on those tiers because they've performed the feat at least once.

None of these instances I listed are treated as outliers by the wiki, and we shouldn't be doing the same thing to characters like Mario, Luigi, and Reclusa in this thread. (And honestly, Idc if this is whataboutism because that's not the point).

This is a good summary

 

[SuperMarioGamers3]

Alright, I'm gonna reiterate my replies since I feel like a lot's being slept on...

Within one of Dr. Vulko's notes, it's strongly implied that Connectar, which is the primary energy source of Concordia holds "limitless power", and later states the Bonds of family, friendship and love produce Connectar along with the Uni-Tree. Per the Tiering System FAQ, infinite power of one thing is generally described to be High 3-A. The Bonds are also stated to transcend the world, and everything exists precisely because everything in the world is born from the energy of the Bonds due to one's 'connections' with someone. The entire Super Mario Cosmology is currently 2-A, and affecting one to infinite 4-dimensional spacetime continuums is well within the Tier 2 range. By this logic, it should mean:

• The Uni-Tree and the Bonds are at the very least High Universe level seeing as how they're producing Concordia with limitless power
• The Bonds transcending the world and everything in the world existing because of the Bonds places them at Universe level+ to Multiverse level+

The OP is right on Bonds meeting criteria from the Universal Energy Systems...

...and it fits even more criteria which was posted later on in this thread. To correctly reiterate the third qualification in this part the OP listed, as I stated before in my previous post here, the UES page says:

This section of the page clearly tells us visual evidence of amplification isn't considered necessary; just that they have to demonstrate that they can channel their power through their own bodies in a way that quantifiably enhances them or otherwise allows scaling of their supernatural powers through their physicals, and there should be evidence that an increase in power / energy should correspond to a proportional increase in the potency of their physical statistics. The blog and the OP listed a few instances of the Bonds being used to enhance others and allow users to channel that power through their bodies:

• Bowser and his minions are stated to gain strength from Bonds in Brothership.
• We are also shown that they have the ability to amplify the power of both physical and non-physical/magical attacks. For instance, Mario and Luigi are able to infuse their hammers with Bonds to deal damage in the thousands on Reclusa's ~52560 HP (1086+1740+2404+4066+6659+8892+9137+8601+9975). If you don't attack with bond power, you'll only do around 80 damage per hit.
• Earlier in the game, after Mario and Luigi battle Gorumbla, Wilma, his Aunt, gives him a "Tough Love Punch" after infusing herself with Bond energy. Snoutlet notes her to be even stronger than Mario and Luigi when they aren't amplified at that point of the game, Wilma is also able to build warp pipes that work due to Connectar, a form of Bonds, further establishing Chakron's statement.
• In terms of magic, Mario and Luigi can use a Bros Bomb attack, which combines Bonds with both Fire and Ice to deal significant damage, along with Battle Plugs.

All these instances meet that part of the UES standards of the page; furthermore, DDM stated another rule from the page in this reply:

This is proven when the Mario Bros beat Glohm Bowser and Glohm Gorumbla because when the Glohm leaves them upon their defeat, they revert back into their base forms and statistics while unconscious; not to mention the Bros are battling them with and WITHOUT the Bonds. With all these indicators combined, this must prove THE BONDS ACT AS A UES; even if it doesn't, the evidence of them actithisng as a stat amp is so blatant it's hard to ignore and not place on the profiles.

The "eradicating all Bonds from the multiverse" part is lacking context; the full statement from Shun is actually this:

Everyone carries some Glohm with them. Dark feelings... Loneliness... Disconnectedness... Reclusa's a monster that turns lonely feelings into energy. And he's been around since long before any of us were born. He hatches from an egg and fills the world with loneliness... When his power is up, he recharges in his egg. If we don't stop him... he'll keep doing that, again, and again.

But this DOESN'T mean Reclusa DOESN'T scale to the Bonds or his dream manipulation; in fact, Reclusa implied he previously broke everyone's connections in many other worlds and all that awaited them was a slow demise. The Glohm is the exact same substance Reclusa used to make the dreams, and it's also the same substance that was used to empower characters like Bowser and Gorumbla, whom Mario and Luigi defeated. The Soli-Tree is basically a warped, evil, dark version of the Uni-Tree; it was formed by Reclusa after he hatched from his egg when he first encountered the Mario Bros, and mind you, this is the exact same egg he recharges in.

Before anybody states Creation Feats need proof that they scale to physicals, I heavily implore you to watch the fights between Glohm Bowser and Glohm Gorumbla; they're shown to use techniques like Glohm-infused punches and shell attacks. Are they displaying explicit Tier 2 feats like universe/multiversal destruction or creation during these fights? Of course not, but this is generally how a lot of pages on this wiki operate:

• Sonic and Son Goku haven't displayed Low Multiverse destruction on a constant everyday regular basis, yet there's at least one or a few instances of them scaling to characters on these tiers or have displayed one or a few instances of things like shaking the Macrocosm.
• As someone who's worked on both the Hellboy and Spawn franchises/verses, while characters like Liz Sherman or Satan haven't constantly displayed Low 1-C or 7-B feats, they still sit on those tiers because they've performed the feat at least once.

None of these instances I listed are treated as outliers by the wiki, and we shouldn't be doing the same thing to characters like Mario, Luigi, and Reclusa in this thread. (And honestly, Idc if this is whataboutism because that's not the point).

This is dead horse-beating at its finest.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Can't believe I forgot, to mention this before the thread's creation but. Was there ever bring up of our stabilization feats page?

 

[SuperMarioGamers3]

Was there ever bring up of our stabilization feats page?

I don't think so- and, unrelated, wouldn't this upscale the Grand Stat to 3-A for stabilizing the Galaxy Reactor, which, unstablized, was gonna destroy the whole Universe?

 

[Lou_change]

Within one of Dr. Vulko's notes, it's strongly implied that Connectar, which is the primary energy source of Concordia holds "limitless power", and later states the Bonds of family, friendship and love produce Connectar along with the Uni-Tree.

It sounds like the energy supply is endless which I mean it is produced pretty effortlessly just people having and maintaining bonds.

The Bonds are also stated to transcend the world, and everything exists precisely because everything in the world is born from the energy of the Bonds due to one's 'connections' with someone.

I already questioned the creation one I think I found the English version of the second scene used but would it kill you to provide links to the full scenes yourselves. Are we sure the transcend stuff it isn't just them making bonds with people from another world? I can't tell what dialogue corresponds to the other line so again video would be appreciated.

But this DOESN'T mean Reclusa DOESN'T scale to the Bonds or his dream manipulation; in fact, Reclusa implied he previously broke everyone's connections in many other worlds and all that awaited them was a slow demise. The Glohm is the exact same substance Reclusa used to make the dreams, and it's also the same substance that was used to empower characters like Bowser and Gorumbla, whom Mario and Luigi defeated. The Soli-Tree is basically a warped, evil, dark version of the Uni-Tree; it was formed by Reclusa after he hatched from his egg when he first encountered the Mario Bros, and mind you, this is the exact same egg he recharges in.

I also questioned the dream thing a while ago no one ever really responded to that though.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I don't think so- and, unrelated, wouldn't this upscale the Grand Star to 3-A for stabilizing the Galaxy Reactor, which, unstablized, was gonna destroy the whole Universe?

Uh no, and not really an example related to this thread. I was pointing out there are rules regarding stabilization feats and there needs to be evidence on other things. It's relevant to the part on "Power of Bonds holding the multiverse together" stuff brought up in the OP. Stabilization Feats another thing basically similar to our creations feats and environmental destruction policies. Stabilization cosmic structures doesn't scale to physical stats by default; although it is to be noted UES scaling to be an exception.

 

[SuperMarioGamers3]

It's relevant to the part on "Power of Bonds holding the multiverse together" stuff brought up in the OP. Stabilization Feats another thing basically similar to our creations feats and environmental destruction policies. Stabilization cosmic structures doesn't scale to physical stats by default; although it is to be noted UES scaling to be an exception.

Aaaah. That makes more sense. Thanks. Since UES might be an exeption, I suppose you think that Bonds are a part of that?

 

[Galactidot]

It sounds like the energy supply is endless which I mean it is produced pretty effortlessly just people having and maintaining bonds.

I already questioned the creation one I think I found the English version of the second scene used but would it kill you to provide links to the full scenes yourselves. Are we sure the transcend stuff it isn't just them making bonds with people from another world? I can't tell what dialogue corresponds to the other line so again video would be appreciated.

I also questioned the dream thing a while ago no one ever really responded to that though.

By now it just looks like you're grasping at the English localization for straws, despite me already telling you of issues with it. Please stop.

Regardless of what it says, the Japanese version would take precedence. Do you believe the translation team is in a room with the writers of the game? They just rewrite it.

"would it kill you to provide links to the full scenes yourselves."

This is just rude, and asking us for something only you are interested (which isn't even relevant) in for disingenuous reasons. Please cease.

 

[JPTheGamer]

Are we sure the transcend stuff it isn't just them making bonds with people from another world?

...I'm sorry, where did you even come up with this conclusion? Where did any of the characters in that scenario state they were from another world?

 

[Lou_change]

By now it just looks like you're grasping at the English localization for straws, despite me already telling you of issues with it. Please stop.

You linked a reddit thread mentioning one mistranslation I don't think that should invalidate the whole translation.

Regardless of what it says, the Japanese version would take precedence. Do you believe the translation team is in a room with the writers of the game? They just rewrite it.

I don't even know how you translated it, I can't find anything where you explained who or what did it. How do I know you didn't do worst?

This is just rude, and asking us for something only you are interested (which isn't even relevant) in for disingenuous reasons. Please cease.

Gee, how many times have you already insulted me personally this thread. Anyway, I feel they might be relevant, you want to know why? Because the meaning of words can change depending on the context they are used in and the scene probably provides that context. I already explained why I don't think even the grandpa turnip's Japanese dialogue says what you claim it does. Can we get a translation helper or whatever it is called over here.

...I'm sorry, where did you even come up with this conclusion? Where did any of the characters in that scenario state they were from another world?

Did you look at the English version of the scene that would have explained it. If not well how about the fact see is literally talking to people who are from another world that made a bunch of bonds with people from her world.

 

[Galactidot]

I don't even know how you translated it, I can't find anything where you explained who or what did it. How do I know you didn't do worst?

Gee, how many times have you already insulted me personally this thread. Anyway, I feel they might be relevant, you want to know why? Because the meaning of words can change depending on the context they are used in and the scene probably provides that context. I already explained why I don't think even the grandpa turnip's Japanese dialogue says what you claim it does. Can we get a translation helper or whatever it is called over here.

Translation helper? Funny. That's where all of this is from.

Did you look at the English version of the scene that would have explained it. If not well how about the fact see is literally talking to people who are from another world that made a bunch of bonds with people from her world.

I have notably 100%'d the game. I am not in any way simply watching a video, I played the game.

 

[JPTheGamer]

I already questioned the creation one I think I found the English version of the second scene used but would it kill you to provide links to the full scenes yourselves. Are we sure the transcend stuff it isn't just them making bonds with people from another world? I can't tell what dialogue corresponds to the other line so again video would be appreciated.

Did you look at the English version of the scene that would have explained it. If not well how about the fact see is literally talking to people who are from another world that made a bunch of bonds with people from her world.

Okay? So what if it they're from another world? That just further establishes there are indeed multiple universes in the Super Mario Cosmology, and the Bonds have a multiversal influence.

I also questioned the dream thing a while ago no one ever really responded to that though.

How else did he create them?

 

[Lou_change]

Translation helper? Funny. That's where all of this is from.

Why do you not mention this stuff and I thought @SuperMarioGamers3 was responsible

I have notably 100%'d the game. I am not in any way simply watching a video, I played the game.

That wasn't even directed to you

Okay? So, what if it they're from another world? Doesn't it just further establish there are multiple universes in the Super Mario Cosmology and the Bonds have a multiversal influence?

I mean it might more accurately mean beyond. Again using google translate I think it is this, 超える, is the part that means transcend. Wiktionary says it can also mean to cross. So it could just mean that they made bonds with people from another world.

How else did he create them?

To be clear I argued they aren't even dreams in the sleep sense but rather in the wishful thinking and daydreaming sense as they are only call dreams once while being called called fantasy worlds at least twice, the people in them are never said to be sleeping (to my knowledge), and they don't act like other dreams in Mario which don't need to be sustained.

 

[SuperMarioGamers3]

Why do you not mention this stuff and I thought @SuperMarioGamers3 was responsible

I was, I used Japanese Translator (Romanji Desu) + Jisho dictionary + Claude. If you'd like, I can send the thing to the Translation Team or have a translator who knows Japanese far more than I do to verify.

So it could just mean that they made bonds with people from another world.

The story was quite clear on noting how exactly bonds work. Cozette says that the power of bonds bonds are beyond/transcend the world, and the context from the English version are still blatant in this respect- since it's talking about how the Power of Bonds can extend even beyond dimensions (universes).

 

[JPTheGamer]

It sounds like the energy supply is endless which I mean it is produced pretty effortlessly just people having and maintaining bonds.

Uh, endless energy is another way of saying High 3-A

I mean it might more accurately mean beyond. Again using google translate I think it is this, 超える, is the part that means transcend. Wiktionary says it can also mean to cross. So it could just mean that they made bonds with people from another world.

So? Transcend is just another way of saying to go beyond, and even still, that just proves there's multiple universes.

To be clear I argued they aren't even dreams in the sleep sense but rather in the wishful thinking and daydreaming sense as they are only call dreams once while being called called fantasy worlds at least twice, the people in them are never said to be sleeping (to my knowledge), and they don't act like other dreams in Mario which don't need to be sustained.

Dreams are fantasy-based; Snoutlet even says everyone's going off into their own fantasy land. Reclusa also calls them their own little worlds.

 

[Galactidot]

Why do you not mention this stuff and I thought @SuperMarioGamers3 was responsible

Because I didn't expect someone to react like this, do you truly not understand why I'm responding in such a manner?

That wasn't even directed to you

Alright then.

I mean it might more accurately mean beyond. Again using google translate I think it is this, 超える, is the part that means transcend. Wiktionary says it can also mean to cross. So it could just mean that they made bonds with people from another world.

Google Translate? Alright. I'm literally in contact with people who KNOW Japanese, I don't think there's anything for you to pursue here. The statement is blatant.

To be clear I argued they aren't even dreams in the sleep sense but rather in the wishful thinking and daydreaming sense as they are only call dreams once while being called called fantasy worlds at least twice, the people in them are never said to be sleeping (to my knowledge), and they don't act like other dreams in Mario which don't need to be sustained.

One of the quests in the game is literally:

"Mushroom Dreams43Wait―is this actually the Mushroom Kingdom? Something seems really off. Could it be one of Reclusa's tricks?Use the camera to figure out the weird spots. Find the hidden Reclusa.
Wake from This Nightmare!43This Mushroom Kingdom turned out to be an illusory realm. Reclusa is clearly doing everything he can to trap Mario and Luigi forever!Don't give up! Try to escape! Chase after Reclusa, and do your best to catch up!"
https://www.mariowiki.com/List_of_M...summaries#:~:text=Mushroom Dreams,to catch up!

 

[Lou_change]

I was, I used Japanese Translator (Romanji Desu) + Jisho dictionary + Claude. If you'd like, I can send the thing to the Translation Team or have a translator who knows Japanese far more than I do to verify.

You are fine, I just wish to make sure I understand you used two dictionary and a machine to translate.

The story was quite clear on noting how exactly bonds work. Cozette says that the power of bonds bonds are beyond/transcend the world, and the context from the English version are still blatant in this respect- since it's talking about how the Power of Bonds can extend even beyond dimensions (universes).

And here I was thinking it was about the fact bonds have been made with people from another world the camera even pans over to the brothers and talks about the making of new connections. Also bond energy was what was used to bring them over but the act of bringing them over is not a universal feat.

Uh, endless energy is another way of saying High 3-A

There are plenty of batteries in fiction that will never run out of energy that doesn't mean they have infinite energy.

Because I didn't expect someone to react like this, do you truly not understand why I'm responding in such a manner?

What requesting context?

Google Translate? Alright. I'm literally in contact with people who KNOW Japanese, I don't think there's anything for you to pursue here. The statement is blatant.

Also Wiktionary and can these people who know Japanese make their presence known. I feel like requesting a more indepth look is reasonable I even found the Japanese version of the quest ta da. Also they use a different word for everything than the one that means universe both times.

One of the quests in the game is literally:

"Mushroom Dreams43Wait―is this actually the Mushroom Kingdom? Something seems really off. Could it be one of Reclusa's tricks?Use the camera to figure out the weird spots. Find the hidden Reclusa.
Wake from This Nightmare!43This Mushroom Kingdom turned out to be an illusory realm. Reclusa is clearly doing everything he can to trap Mario and Luigi forever!Don't give up! Try to escape! Chase after Reclusa, and do your best to catch up!"
https://www.mariowiki.com/List_of_M...summaries#:~:text=Mushroom Dreams,to catch up!

Oh hey words from the translation you tried to imply I am not allow to use. Pointing out hypocrisy aside, I guess I am wrong my apologies.

 

[JPTheGamer]

There are plenty of batteries in fiction that will never run out of energy that doesn't mean they have infinite energy.

If they "never run out of energy", then they basically have infinite energy; "infinite" means "never-ending".

 

[SuperMarioGamers3]

You are fine, I just wish to make sure I understand you used two dictionary and a machine to translate.

Alrighty.

And here I was thinking it was about the fact bonds have been made with people from another world the camera even pans over to the brothers and talks about the making of new connections. Also bond energy was what was used to bring them over but the act of bringing them over is not a universal feat.

...that... was never the argument. At all. The argument is that Cozette notes that Bonds are beyond the world (demonstrated by the fact Mario & Luigi can travel to Concordia), on top of Grampy Turnip saying outright saying that everything's exists because of Bonds. And since Mario & Luigi are the only two characters with a Powerful enough bond that can face Reclusa, a characters who scales above at least the Zeekeeper & Rosalina, entails an at-bare-minimum 2-B for Mario/Luigi & Reclusa.

No one said the the traveling between world that Mario & Luigi do is a Universal feat, I have no idea why you think anyone here is even remotely implying that.

To be clear I argued they aren't even dreams in the sleep sense but rather in the wishful thinking and daydreaming sense as they are only call dreams once while being called called fantasy worlds at least twice, the people in them are never said to be sleeping (to my knowledge), and they don't act like other dreams in Mario which don't need to be sustained.

I want to cover this a bit, but I think I have a good way of explaining this one (since, I understand why this is confusing you a bit, wording like this might get a little tricky); try to think about it like Breath of the Wild's Trial of the Sword. We know that this place is a real location, since Link literally teleports from location to location. However, it's stated in that game that the place is an illusory realm (since the monsters aren't real ones, because they don't actually drop any parts and in that place specifically). Even within Mario, Dreambert notes the Dreams Worlds as "Dream ones" and the standard Mario world as the "Real World". I hope that clears it up for you!

 

[SuperMarioGamers3]

I do also want also want to apologize to @Lou_change for my slightly aggressive behavior across various CRTs; I don't think me doing that was conducive to proper discussion, and it's clear that you are more than willing to act in good faith- you just need more stuff explained since you're not as familiar with the source material (Brothership), skepticism was bound to appear. If you do have any other concerns, obviously feel free to ask.

 

[Lou_change]

If they "never run out of energy", then they basically have infinite energy; "infinite" means "never-ending".

I meant they don't always exert an infinite amount of energy at any individual instant.

top of Grampy Turnip saying outright saying that everything's exists because of Bonds.

I already explained why I disagree with that interpretation.

Okay so I found what means "everything" すべて and turns out "all things" is actually 万物 which definitely not what is said however 万物 means all things of the universe while すべて seems to mean everything together as part of a set I used a combination of Google Translate and wiktionary to figure this out so nuance is probably lost on me and it could be wrong but it supports the localization. Also even in Japanese it is implied the world would still exist.

I do also want also want to apologize to @Lou_change for my slightly aggressive behavior across various CRTs; I don't think me doing that was conducive to proper discussion, and it's clear that you are more than willing to act in good faith- you just need more stuff explained since you're not as familiar with the source material (Brothership), skepticism was bound to appear. If you do have any other concerns, obviously feel free to ask.

I played the game a year ago, the problem is I am mostly going of memory and I have a bad memory.

 

[SuperMarioGamers3]

I already explained why I disagree with that interpretation.

Let's see that Wikitionary again;

[adverb] entirely, completely; all
[adverb] in general, approximately
[adverb] (chiefly in the negative) at all, completely
[noun] everything, all

This is how it's shown in Jisho;
1. everything; all; the whole
2. entirely; completely; wholly; all

And going back to what Grampy Turnip said;

"すべて 誰かとの「つながり」が あればこそ 存在するものなのだ."
"All things exist precisely because of their 'connections' with someone."

On top of what Cozette said (that is goes beyond universes), we can then look at this statement saying that "all things exist" would mean the Marioverse. These two words are very similar, so it's best to use the context to the situation to determine what "all things", mean. The interpretation comes from the broader context.

 

[JPTheGamer]

I meant they don't always exert an infinite amount of energy at any individual instant.

My guy... Everyone who possesses infinite power or is tiered at High 3-A doesn't exert infinite energy on a consistent everyday regular basis. That is NOT how powerscaling works.

 

[Lou_change]

Let's see that Wikitionary again;

[adverb] entirely, completely; all
[adverb] in general, approximately
[adverb] (chiefly in the negative) at all, completely
[noun] everything, all

This is how it's shown in Jisho;
1. everything; all; the whole
2. entirely; completely; wholly; all

And going back to what Grampy Turnip said;

"すべて 誰かとの「つながり」が あればこそ 存在するものなのだ."
"All things exist precisely because of their 'connections' with someone."

On top of what Cozette said (that is goes beyond universes), we can then look at this statement saying that "all things exist" would mean the Marioverse. These two words are very similar, so it's best to use the context to the situation to determine what "all things", mean. The interpretation comes from the broader context.

I feel him listing a bunch of things related the bonds between people before hand as well as the English version instead using all after listing stuff off and him mentioning the world existing afterwards just in a horrible state indicates to me he is just taking about him destroying all aspects of relationships. I admit your interpretation is probably possible it's just my interpretation makes more sense to me.

My guy... Everyone who possesses infinite power or is tiered at High 3-A doesn't exert infinite energy on a consistent everyday regular basis. That is NOT how powerscaling works.

Okay, so you know how characters can have infinite stamina without being 3-A? My argument is basically it could be like that due to ambiguity.

 

[JPTheGamer]

Okay, so you know how characters can have infinite stamina without being 3-A? My argument is basically it could be like that due to ambiguity.

Except it didn't say "infinite stamina"; it said "infinite power".

 

[SuperMarioGamers3]

Okay, so you know how characters can have infinite stamina without being 3-A? My argument is basically it could be like that due to ambiguity.

To break it down to JP, he's talking about things in respect to various statements like Kirby being stated to have Infinite Power in various games- but it's not as if Kirby can exert that as boom-boom punch-punch all the time from that statement alone.

But to explain it to you, Lou, the reason he's using this "infinite power" statement (and why it matters) is that it adds context to the scope of the power of Bonds.

1. Stated by Dr. Vulko to contain "limitless power (infinite)". How do we understand what that could mean?
2. Cozette states that it goes beyond/transcend the world, which means that Bonds encompass not just one dimension, but at least Concordia and Mario's world. So, how do we know it extends across the Marioverse?
3. When Grampy Turnip states that "all things exist because of their connections with someone". We know that Grampy Turnip (his group of Turnips) has awareness of other Dimensions (as displayed here);

おぬしら この世界のモンじゃないな。なんつーか 雰囲気で分かる.
"You lot aren't from this world, are you. I can tell somehow, just from the vibe." (Yep; he uses "世界").

All of this entails that Bonds encompass everything in the Marioverse. Considering that the Great Conductor (someone who would know about the Reefs from characters on different dimensions, liken the Zeekeeper and Broque Monsiuer) states that only Mario and Luigi are strong enough to defeat Reclusa, which, scaling-wise, makes him scale to the strongest characters in the Mario World- above at least the 2-B Zeekeeper.

 

[SuperMarioGamers3]

Except it didn't say "infinite stamina"; it said "infinite power".

The Androids from Dragonball have the "endless/infinite Ki" statement- and no one scales them to 3-A during the Andriod/Cell Saga lol.

 

[Lou_change]

To break it down to JP, he's talking about things in respect to various statements like Kirby being stated to have Infinite Power in various games- but it's not as if Kirby can exert that as boom-boom punch-punch all the time from that statement alone.

But to explain it to you, Lou, the reason he's using this "infinite power" statement (and why it matters) is that it adds context to the scope of the power of Bonds.

1. Stated by Dr. Vulko to contain "limitless power (infinite)". How do we understand what that could mean?
2. Cozette states that it goes beyond/transcend the world, which means that Bonds encompass not just one dimension, but at least Concordia and Mario's world. So, how do we know it extends across the Marioverse?
3. When Grampy Turnip states that "all things exist because of their connections with someone". We know that Grampy Turnip (his group of Turnips) has awareness of other Dimensions (as displayed here);

おぬしら この世界のモンじゃないな。なんつーか 雰囲気で分かる.
"You lot aren't from this world, are you. I can tell somehow, just from the vibe." (Yep; he uses "世界").

All of this entails that Bonds encompass everything in the Marioverse. Considering that the Great Conductor (someone who would know about the Reefs from characters on different dimensions, liken the Zeekeeper and Broque Monsiuer) states that only Mario and Luigi are strong enough to defeat Reclusa, which, scaling-wise, makes him scale to the strongest characters in the Mario World- above at least the 2-B Zeekeeper.

I mean it seems the biggest source of disagreement is a difference of interpretation. Zeekeeper scaling doesn't seem unreasonable although he would probably be more vulnerable to Glohm hax and is also not the most cooperative and could probably leave given he can travel across dreams and from dreams to the real world and I think the Great Conductor only had the power to try one time.

 

[Galactidot]

Also Wiktionary and can these people who know Japanese make their presence known. I feel like requesting a more indepth look is reasonable I even found the Japanese version of the quest ta da. Also they use a different word for everything than the one that means universe both times.

The people I am referring to don't use VSBW, but I can assure you they exist. Also that's kinda a different scene but okay

Oh hey words from the translation you tried to imply I am not allow to use. Pointing out hypocrisy aside, I guess I am wrong my apologies.

Oh, it's even more explicit in Japanese. Just too lazy to grab it to be frank

Also, don't twist my words. I never said you're not allowed to use it, just don't use it to try to override the direct translation.

 

[Lou_change]

Also that's kinda a different scene but okay

It is the beginning of the quest that ends at the scene okay.

 

[OrangeFR]

The Androids from Dragonball have the "endless/infinite Ki" statement- and no one scales them to 3-A during the Andriod/Cell Saga lol.

Was genuinely boutta bring this up.

 

[SuperMarioGamers3]

Zeekeeper scaling doesn't seem unreasonable although he would probably be more vulnerable to Glohm hax and is also not the most cooperative and could probably leave given he can travel across dreams and from dreams to the real world and I think the Great Conductor only had the power to try one time.

Not nessesarily. Remember that The Zeekeeper is one of the strongest Dreamy characters, since he resides in Dreams (he's the guardian thereof), can blast a hole in a defense wall made by the Nightmare Stone, and can take on Dreamy Luigi, who could take on Dreamy Bowser. He has plenty of real bonds, like his friendship with Dreambert, his care for his world, and his desire to protect the Dreams. This is more of an attestment to the power of Reclusa than anything.

 

[JPTheGamer]

To break it down to JP, he's talking about things in respect to various statements like Kirby being stated to have Infinite Power in various games- but it's not as if Kirby can exert that as boom-boom punch-punch all the time from that statement alone.

But to explain it to you, Lou, the reason he's using this "infinite power" statement (and why it matters) is that it adds context to the scope of the power of Bonds.

1. Stated by Dr. Vulko to contain "limitless power (infinite)". How do we understand what that could mean?
2. Cozette states that it goes beyond/transcend the world, which means that Bonds encompass not just one dimension, but at least Concordia and Mario's world. So, how do we know it extends across the Marioverse?
3. When Grampy Turnip states that "all things exist because of their connections with someone". We know that Grampy Turnip (his group of Turnips) has awareness of other Dimensions (as displayed here);

おぬしら この世界のモンじゃないな。なんつーか 雰囲気で分かる.
"You lot aren't from this world, are you. I can tell somehow, just from the vibe." (Yep; he uses "世界").

All of this entails that Bonds encompass everything in the Marioverse. Considering that the Great Conductor (someone who would know about the Reefs from characters on different dimensions, liken the Zeekeeper and Broque Monsiuer) states that only Mario and Luigi are strong enough to defeat Reclusa, which, scaling-wise, makes him scale to the strongest characters in the Mario World- above at least the 2-B Zeekeeper.

Exactly what I meant... I think

 

[Lou_change]

Not nessesarily. Remember that The Zeekeeper is one of the strongest Dreamy characters, since he resides in Dreams (he's the guardian thereof), can blast a hole in a defense wall made by the Nightmare Stone, and can take on Dreamy Luigi, who could take on Dreamy Bowser. He has plenty of real bonds, like his friendship with Dreambert, his care for his world, and his desire to protect the Dreams. This is more of an attestment to the power of Reclusa than anything.

I mean yes he is strong but its not implied to be due to bond energy and the Brother's bond is likely stronger. The choice was also influenced by the goal of reconnecting the islands. While he does claim the their bond is unbeatable he talks about what they accomplished in his world and says he is now certain of that fact which could suggest he wasn't certain before summoning them. He also says "Only the Mario Bros. can save Concordia from a fate most dire." however I am pretty sure he only could create the one portal to summon people to help so that could mean the Mario Bros. are the only beings present with the ability to do it. Furthermore it is implied he doesn't know much about Reclusa, Zokket would be a serious challenge, before questioning if their bond is strong enough to win against Zokket also he does an act to appear wiser so I am iffy on taking everything he says at face value.

 

[Galactidot]

I mean yes he is strong but its not implied to be due to bond energy and the Brother's bond is likely stronger. The choice was also influenced by the goal of reconnecting the islands. While he does claim the their bond is unbeatable he talks about what they accomplished in his world and says he is now certain of that fact which could suggest he wasn't certain before summoning them. He also says "Only the Mario Bros. can save Concordia from a fate most dire." however I am pretty sure he only could create the one portal to summon people to help so that could mean the Mario Bros. are the only beings present with the ability to do it. Furthermore it is implied he doesn't know much about Reclusa, Zokket would be a serious challenge, before questioning if their bond is strong enough to win against Zokket also he does an act to appear wiser so I am iffy on taking everything he says at face value.

To be fair, Zokket was also a threat, and I believe only Mario and Luigi could've stopped him, too. But Reclusa created Zokket and is capable of neg-diffing him.

He's capable of creating multiple portals though (which I will call Bond portals as they work by opening the Bond-space connection in between worlds)

WAIT HOLD ON, I JUST FOUND SOMETHING CRAZY, RELATING DIRECTLY TO THE THREAD (Can't believe I didn't think of this sooner, it was in the last place I thought to look, the opening cutscene!)

When Luigi goes through the portal, he is TURNED INTO BOND ENERGY, and so is Mario!
All things really are born and made from Bonds, huh?

 

[SuperMarioGamers3]

I mean yes he is strong but its not implied to be due to bond energy and the Brother's bond is likely stronger.

Note that Grampy Turnip simply states outright that everything exists because of ones connection to each other. This would apply to the energy and power of Dreams.

While he does claim the their bond is unbeatable he talks about what they accomplished in his world and says he is now certain of that fact which could suggest he wasn't certain before summoning them. He also says "Only the Mario Bros. can save Concordia from a fate most dire." however I am pretty sure he only could create the one portal to summon people to help so that could mean the Mario Bros. are the only beings present with the ability to do it.

You're very close to understanding this. Note that the Great Conductor would be aware of the all of reefs, which not only has the Zeekeper, but Brouque Monsieur and the being form outer space, the Shroobs.

Furthermore it is implied he doesn't know much about Reclusa, Zokket would be a serious challenge, before questioning if their bond is strong enough to win against Zokket also he does an act to appear wiser so I am iffy on taking everything he says at face value.

It's not simply taking what he says at face value per-se. Considering that most characters and even Reculsa will destroy all bonds- it's clear that the Great Conductor is on the money with his statement here.

 

[Lou_change]

He's capable of creating multiple

We only ever see the one in the part after Peach seems to be taken from near her castle if a second one was responsible for that we should have seen it. It seems the brothers bond it involved as the process starts after they grab each other's hand and the Great Conductor later claims he can only create a portal to send them back with help from the external energy provided from the restoration of Concordia which indicates creating portals is something he can't just do willy nilly.

When Luigi goes through the portal, he is TURNED INTO BOND ENERGY, and so is Mario!

We only see it with Luigi and we don't know why it happen. I mean Luigi is confirmed to have energy that resonates with the energy of the land of Concordia which we know is bond energy.

Note that Grampy Turnip simply states outright that everything exists because of ones connection to each other. This would apply to the energy and power of Dreams.

I already explained why I think all parts of your interpretation that bond energy creates everything is wrong like that fact that multiple lines about Reclusa winning confirm the world would still exist just everyone will be dead or alone even Reclusa talks about creating an Ideal world. They even acknowledge that it is okay to be alone. Your two primary sources are optional dialogue from a side quest and Grampy Turnip. If it was meant to be an important part of the story that bonds literally create reality and that Reclusa would destroy the universe I would think that would be part of the main story not optional content that is said in what seems to an easy to misinterpret way, that isn't shown in the localization.

Then there are the implications on the story if worlds can't exist without bonds then does that mean every time that Reclusa tries to create his ideal world it is doomed to be destroyed forcing Reclusa to go on to destroy more worlds so he can live somewhere he is happy. That seems to go against his portrayal a purely evil villain who is ruining lives just for fun by adding a tragic element to his character in that his goal is fundamental impossible and it is impossible for him to find lasting happiness outside of endless cycle where he chases short term happiness forever. It also makes me question why they needed to find bonds to collect bond energy if everything was made of bond energy why couldn't they use anything else are they stupid.

There is also the implications for the cosmology, bonds are clearly defined as the emotional connections between people. So, how can the existence of the peoples who connections are the source of bonds originate from bonds if there aren't people to create bonds to begin with. That sounds like a paradox. The claim that the cosmology is the strongest bond user was made but I am unaware of anything that would indicate that the cosmology itself is aware or alive so I don't see the logic of it.

You're very close to understanding this. Note that the Great Conductor would be aware of the all of reefs, which not only has the Zeekeper, but Brouque Monsieur and the being form outer space, the Shroobs.

Why would he be aware of all the reefs I thought they were never part of the land of Concordia why would he care about a bunch of random reefs also we don't even know how he found Mario and Luigi what if he just couldn't find the Zeekeeper.


Anyway I am going to take a break from arguing so staff can catch up.

 

[Galactidot]

We only ever see the one in the part after Peach seems to be taken from near her castle if a second one was responsible for that we should have seen it. It seems the brothers bond it involved as the process starts after they grab each other's hand and the Great Conductor later claims he can only create a portal to send them back with help from the external energy provided from the restoration of Concordia which indicates creating portals is something he can't just do willy nilly.

Oh alright.

We only see it with Luigi and we don't know why it happen. I mean Luigi is confirmed to have energy that resonates with the energy of the land of Concordia which we know is bond energy.

Why is it always Luigi, anyways? Chaos Heart, Dreams, this?

But for real though, Mario is starting to turn into Bond Energy before the screen cuts, I suppose in Luigi's POC, he blacked out.

I already explained why I think all parts of your interpretation that bond energy creates everything is wrong like that fact that multiple lines about Reclusa winning confirm the world would still exist just everyone will be dead or alone even Reclusa talks about creating an Ideal world. They even acknowledge that it is okay to be alone. Your two primary sources are optional dialogue from a side quest and Grampy Turnip. If it was meant to be an important part of the story that bonds literally create reality and that Reclusa would destroy the universe I would think that would be part of the main story not optional content that is said in what seems to an easy to misinterpret way, that isn't shown in the localization.

If he can create a world as literally as you're saying, then why don't we just scale Reclusa THAT way?

Regardless, this "optional side quest" is one you're literally encouraged to do, and it's the same side quest with lots of other SUPER IMPORTANT story information, so you can't write it off because of that.

Lines about Reclusa winning? Are they in the room with us, and how do they confirm the world will still exist? He mentions breaking the world itself, and he leaves for the next one anyways.

I'm an absolute Glohmed state, people appear to detest reality itself. One literally fantasizes about jumping off a cliff.

It's okay to be alone, but in the same cutscenes they mention that absolute solitude, which is literally Glohm, will never work. They even use being "tied to someTHING" as an example of a Bond.

Then there are the implications on the story if worlds can't exist without bonds then does that mean every time that Reclusa tries to create his ideal world it is doomed to be destroyed forcing Reclusa to go on to destroy more worlds so he can live somewhere he is happy. That seems to go against his portrayal a purely evil villain who is ruining lives just for fun by adding a tragic element to his character in that his goal is fundamental impossible and it is impossible for him to find lasting happiness outside of endless cycle where he chases short term happiness forever. It also makes me question why they needed to find bonds to collect bond energy if everything was made of bond energy why couldn't they use anything else are they stupid.

He doesn't really want to create a world, you bought any of that? He wants to destroy. Also, everything is Bond Energy, they just needed a concentration of it.

There is also the implications for the cosmology, bonds are clearly defined as the emotional connections between people. So, how can the existence of the peoples who connections are the source of bonds originate from bonds if there aren't people to create bonds to begin with. That sounds like a paradox. The claim that the cosmology is the strongest bond user was made but I am unaware of anything that would indicate that the cosmology itself is aware or alive so I don't see the logic of it.

Mentioned above that being connected to objects counts towards Bonds, and there are other stuff in the game showing the same concept. I get you're unfamiliar and have never played the game, but at least act as if you are asking for info rather than... Whatever this is...

Why would he be aware of all the reefs I thought they were never part of the land of Concordia why would he care about a bunch of random reefs also we don't even know how he found Mario and Luigi what if he just couldn't find the Zeekeeper.

He literally states that he searched the Multiverse for them.

Anyway I am going to take a break from arguing so staff can catch up.

Okay.

That's all that needs to be said here, don't see why you're even arguing against this, the statement is blatant and denial is disingenuous, and there's a while blog full of information why it's true.

 

[Lou_change]

If he can create a world as literally as you're saying, then why don't we just scale Reclusa THAT way?

Look at the video for once. When he says create ideal world he obviously means turn this world into one he likes more do you know what media literacy is.

That's all that needs to be said here, don't see why you're even arguing against this, the statement is blatant

yeah and somehow three people misinterpreted it.