Bondin' Jimmy (2-A Mario Bonds UES CRT)

[Galactidot]

(I did puns with the first two threads, I'm not stopping here!)

This is the User Blog that will be utilized.

The intent of this CRT is to properly establish Bonds within the Mario Bros franchise as a Universal Energy System.

This CRT is a summary, the blog explains everything in-depth. If you've already read it, there'll be nothing you need to re-read here.

---

Bonds

First named in the 2024 release Mario & Luigi Brothership, Bonds are power derived from the very concept of togetherness. Bonds are heavily utilized in the setting of the game, Concordia. The existence of Bonds keeps the land together, and produces an infinite source of power, according to Dr. Vulko.

It can come in many forms, some of the named ones being Connectar and Lumenade. However, Bonds go far beyond the Land of Concordia, and can be seen long before Brothership. The reason for this is quite apparent due to multiple statements that reveal the true nature of Bonds.

According to Cozette and a Grampy Turnip, Bonds are the very source of existence. Bonds create everything, and spread beyond each universe, creating an infinite cycle of creation, lining up with Dr Vulko calling it "infinite energy". They act as a direct inverse to Glohm, which causes an endless cycle of destruction, creating everything and spreads by ascending beyond every universe it's present in.

Spoiler: What can Bonds do?

Some instances of it being used previously in the series include:

• Mario Galaxy games, it is said Mario's love for Peach was the reason not even a Grand Star amplification could turn the tables against Mario.
  • This also includes Peach enhancing the power of the Star Spirits to amplify amply and destroy power characters, even the Dream Stone.
  • In the Super Mario RPG remake, The Power of Bonds are how all the team attacks/meters.
  • In both SMRPG and Paper Mario series, FP is shared with entire party.
  • In Paper Mario TTYD, appeal generates star power, which is shared between the party. There is a badge in the Japanese version that buffs it called "Wishing with Friends". Said Star Power is created through the wishes of the people, which are regarded as Bonds.
  • Bro Points is the M&L series version of MP/Mana from pretty much every other RPG, Psynergy from Golden Sun, or PK from Earthbound/Mother series. It's not only Bonds by concept of being related to such, but Glohm also destroys it. BP can power magical, physical, and reality defying attacks.
  • In Mario and Luigi Brothership, Groovemaster Dyode explicitly counts Music's power under Bonds. He teaches the Bros a dance technique that can provide life to trees, and his dance also appears numerous times throughout the game in similar circumstances. This hearkens back to DDR Mario Mix, where music plays a similar role.
  • In Bowser's Inside Story, Chakron, a being who has reached the peak of consciousness, claims that everything is a connection of consciousness, and is able to teleport Bowser by moving him between the consciousness of the very land.
• Super Mario Galaxy 2 features the "Gentle Pull", or the "Desire", known as "The Desire To Be Reunited" that transcends both space and time, something not even the laws of the universe can stop.
• In Super Mario RPG, Culex, who claims to hold a power that rules over all creation, is defeated by Bonds.
• Everyone all throughout the various locations in TTYD where who amped Mario, his partners, and Crystal Stars to turn tables against Shadow Queen. This includes characters like Vivian and Flurrie, who solely use magic-based attacks.
• It's not limited to heroes, various enemies can also get amps based on Power of Bonds. In Bowser's Minions, a common them kind of showcases a "United we stand, divided we fall" tradition.
  • That also explains how Goomba and Troopa hoards can sometimes overwhelm Bowser or Fitness trio in large groups.
  • Bowser Jr's bond with Bowser has also demonstrated being an amplification in some games. As well as something he can use to amplify minions due to "Hurting Jr."
  • Bowser and his minions are stated to gain strength from Bonds in Brothership, the very game that solidified these as a tangible source of power.
  • Bowser Junior's Journey hinges on the Bond between Bowser Jr, the Koopalings, and Bowser's Army. SPIRIT is treated as a measure of the team's Bond. Kamek can increase it by coddling Bowser Junior, and Bowser Junior and Captain Goomba can increase it by rallying their teams.

The Pure Hearts and the Chaos Heart are both explicitly made of Bonds, the latter being made of false ones, being known as Love Power of Chaos in Japan. The Ancients knew how to use Bonds well, creating worlds and the Pure Hearts out of them.

We are also shown that they have the ability to amplify the power of both physical and non-physical/magical attacks. For instance, Mario and Luigi are able to infuse their hammers with Bonds to deal damage in the thousands on Reclusa's ~52560 HP (1086+1740+2404+4066+6659+8892+9137+8601+9975). If you don't attack with bond power, you'll only do around 80 damage per hit.

Earlier in the game, after Mario and Luigi battle Gorumbla, Wilma, his Aunt, gives him a "Tough Love Punch" after infusing herself with Bond energy. Snoutlet notes her to be even stronger than Mario and Luigi when they aren't amplified at that point of the game, Wilma is also able to build warp pipes that work due to Connectar, a form of Bonds, further establishing Chakron's statement.

In terms of magic, Mario and Luigi can use a Bros Bomb attack, which combines Bonds with both Fire and Ice to deal significant damage, along with Battle Plugs.

Bonds can be collected and stored through artifacts like the Bonding Can and the Pure Hearts.

---

Glohm

Glohm is sourced from Reclusa, the progenitor of Glohm, and absolute opposition to Bonds. You may recall that Reclusa is a being that turns loneliness into energy (Glohm), giving him his form and power. He is stated to be capable of eradicating all Bonds from the multiverse, furthering him scaling to all of Bonds beyond him being its equal.

Once he is done killing everybody, he manifests a new physical form in another dimension by gathering enough Glohm (concept he introduces) in the new dimension. This is done through his egg. Reclusa's egg is the source of his power, and is fueled by the very world's isolation. When Reclusa hatches, he creates the Soli-tree from his egg. the egg exploding immediately turns the sky of (at least) the planet red.

This also later creates a pillar of Glohm that shoots into the sky, displaying even MORE energy.

The egg is both the SEED of the Soli-tree and EGG of Reclusa, and gained all of it's energy from the same source, that being himself. The Soli-tree and Glohm are equal to Reclusa (with Reclusa's death destroying the Soli-tree, Glohm and everything related), made all of the dreams, and is where he siphons his power from. (See how it's completely in sync with his expressions, and how when he starts expending more energy, it does the same.)

Most notably, Reclusa uses Glohm to create dream worlds, which would make sense given Glohm scaling to the 2-A creation of Bonds. Reclusa's Glohm also provides Creation and Stabilization.

Spoiler: What can Glohm do?

Some other purposes beyond basic statistic empowerment include:

• Various enemies also become infected with Glohm, making them more powerful, while also possessing a darker red tint and glowing eyes (or in the case of Glohm Piranha Plants, glowing spots on their heads). Attacks from enemies are significantly faster. Some enemies have additional properties when affected with Glohm:
• Glohmed enemies are unable to perform cooperative attacks with each other, including non-Glohmed enemies. For example, Glohmed Zok Troopers do not team up for attacks unlike their regular counterparts.
• The only exceptions to this are enemies which produce clones of themselves.
• Glohmed enemies may skip a turn, which is indicated by a red speech bubble with ellipses above their heads. (ex. Glohm Curlup, Glohm Spike)
• Glohmed enemies may flee from battle. (ex. Glohm Icead, Glohm Sharkbone)
• Glohmed enemies may inflict the Glohm status on a bro. (ex. Glohm Jet Zok Trooper)
• Glohmed enemies can create a spiked shield which breaks after being hit with an attack, although the shield is often two layers. If the spikes are on top, the enemy is unsafe to jump on. (ex. Glohm Soreboar, Glohm Snaptor, Glohm Spikely, Big Glohm Spikely, Glohm Piranha Plant, Glohm Spike Zok Trooper, Glohm Ring Zok Trooper)
• Some will occasionally start having temporary stat boosts, especially POW-Ups. (ex. Glohm Krode, Glohm Shower Fish, Glohm Curlup, Glohm Palooka, Glohm Palooka R, Glohm Piranha Plant, Glohm Millton, Glohm Magikoopa, Glohm Hammer Bro, Glohm Zokkarang Trooper)
• Some may attempt to counter the attacking bro almost immediately by following up with another attack - this is signaled by the words "Counter" appearing alongside a referee whistle sound effect. (ex. Glohm Guardarm, Glohm Parashoot, Glohm Bumbleshoot, Big Glohm Soreboar, Glohm Drillby, Glohm Drillby R, Glohm Piranha Plant, Glohm Spike Zok Trooper)
• Singular enemies sometimes create clones of themselves and shuffle between the fakes. If the fakes are constantly hit, the real one appears to glow. The HP bar is hidden for all enemies. (ex. Glohm Shy Guy, Glohm Goomba, Glohm Koopa Paratroopa, Glohm Icead, Glohm Magmad, Glohm Helmet Zok Trooper)
• Defeated enemies may sometimes linger on the screen, then release a shockwave which must be jumped over. Timing of dodges depends on the location of the shockwave. This does not happen if the enemy is defeated by a counterattack. (ex. Glohm Boo, Glohm Seedle, Glohm Seedle R, Glohm Hydro Seedle, Glohm Invizilizard, Glohm Invizilizard R, Glohm Soreboar, Glohm Capnap, Glohm Capnap R, Glohm Piranha Plant, Glohm Foopfly, Glohm Foopfly R, during Reclusa's invasion)

Being the inverse to the 2-A power of Bonds, Reclusa acts as a source of endless destruction, erasing the very bonds that make up the multiverse. It also has variations and equivalents of all the abilities Bonds can provide.

---

Does it qualify?

As we've established, it follows the rules of a UES. I will be quoting the page directly:

"a character or the system they are using must have explanations or showings that indicate that the powers which should scale to each other draw from the same source of power [1]

Bonds are a Multiversal constant, making up existence itself. They can be used to amplify the power of physical attacks, as well as magic attacks through methods like Bros Bomb or Battle Plugs, which can improve potency of either, lining up with this quality.

Glohm can be similarly used, notably on Bosses to improve the power of all of their attacks to an equal degree, boost any chosen stat, or a durability amp using shields that protect against all attacks equally. Glohm is also a Multiversal constant, coming from Reclusa.


"... Alternatively, it would also suffice to show that the user can invest similar amounts of power into any given technique, should they want to." [2] ...

Bonds and Glohm can be converted between each other, and the amount of power used scales equally to the power of the attack being used e.g. Battle Plug recharge time and charge amount scaling in accordance to how powerful the plug was.

A good example is Reclusa's death converting all things related to and made from Glohm into Bond Energy.


Additionally, they have to demonstrate or have reliable statements that all their supernatural or otherwise non-physical powers scale to each other in Attack Potency. Hence an increase in power / energy should correspond to a proportional increase in the potency of their powers and abilities [3]"

As mentioned above, Bonds and Glohm can empower both physical and non-physical attacks proportionally, and all of them scale to each other in accordance to the amount utilized.

Everyone can use Bonds, but incredibly skilled characters or artifacts are required for Bonds to be used in combat.

As for Glohm, Reclusa can use it to an unlimited extent, and give its power to anyone he desires, like Zokket.

The two forces are able to exchange blows, both physical and non-physical, in combat. As established, Bonds and Glohm are interchangeable, equal forces, exemplified by the existence of Spite Bulbs, Sprite Bulbs (Bond Fairies) disconnected from Bond Energy, which have their power replaced by Glohm thanks to Reclusa, and Reclusa turning into Bond Energy upon his death.

And most of all, Bonds and Glohm fulfill all of the criteria for a UES.

---

Changes:

• Bonds are an official verse wide amp that could qualify as a UES, but at the very least justifies variable tiers and potential amps for many characters especially Mario & Luigi
• Mario and Luigi get base tiers updated to Varies based on Bonds, High 6-A normally, up to 2-B when united at their peaks
  • Furthermore, footnotes that they cannot reach the tier on their own and require being together to achieve it.
• Reclusa scales from 2-B based on the idea that Mario & Luigi are using bonds at peak that exceeded when they fought Dreamy Bowser
  • If this does not work, Low 2-C environmental destruction for Reclusa could still be valid

---

Votes:

Agree: DarkDragonMedeus (With Bonds being a UES, Mario Bros having variable tiers and united peak up to 2-B, Reclusa being 2-B), FinePoint (Same as DarkDragonMedeus), Imaginym (Same as DarkDragonMedeus), Somebodydata (Same as DarkDragonMedeus), Nierre (Same as DarkDragonMedeus), RaikiKurohane99 (With UES, but neutral on scaling)

Disagree: Armorchompy (With UES and 2-B Reclusa, but agreement for Low 2-C Creation/ED for Reclusa), Maverick (same as chompy), Dalesean (same as chompy)

Neutral:

 

[SuperMarioGamers3]

The only way this can be denied is with nothing but raw CHICANERY!

 

[JPTheGamer]

Agree.

Hoping and praying

 

[Lou_change]

both explicitly made of Bonds

I recommend changing where that image is held.

 

[Galactidot]

I recommend changing where that image is held.

Fixed! Thanks for the recommendation TBH, some of the popups on that site are bonkers

 

[Lou_change]

As for Glohm, Reclusa can use it to an unlimited extent, and give its power to anyone he desires, like Zokket.

Didn't he need to be recharged with external Glohm I would question him having limitless control over it just the greatest level of control we ever see.

 

[Galactidot]

Didn't he need to be recharged with external Glohm I would question him having limitless control over it just the greatest level of control we ever see.

Said "external Glohm" is merely part of him, as mentioned in the blog. Remember, he doesn't just control it. Once he dies, all of it disappears and ceases to exist.

Keep in mind everything being made out of Bonds is why he gets drained and needs to recharge in the first place, as they're conflicting forces.

 

[Ghengiroo115]

Following

Tbh I don’t really get UES’s or how they work or anything, so I’m not gonna say I agree with the main purpose of the thread. However, having examples of Bonds being in play throughout the series (and Glohm too I guess) should be helpful for something at least.

 

[Lou_change]

Reclusa embodying it doesn't make him equivalent to all of it admittedly this might just be translation, but couldn't be like elementals from dungeons and dragons where it is made of something but not in direct control of all of it and Reclusa being the only one of its kind. This doesn't outright tell us he is the source of all glohm.

 

[Galactidot]

Reclusa embodying it doesn't make him equivalent to all of it admittedly this might just be translation, but couldn't be like elementals from dungeons and dragons where it is made of something but not in direct control of all of it and Reclusa being the only one of its kind. This doesn't outright tell us he is the source of all glohm.

Wouldn't explain him being capable of eradicating all bonds and sustaining Glohm by merely existing. Also, he's not the only user, he chooses who can wield Glohm, as mentioned in the blog. All of this is mentioned in the blog, really.

If a character with fire powers dies, fire won't just be erased from the universe. Did you read this?

 

[Lou_change]

All the Glohm that disappeared was Glohm under his control that's not necessarily all the Glohm in the multiverse. Also yes there are other users but he could still be the only one that embodies it. It's more an embodiment of fire is using its control of fire to spread fires that die out with them.

 

[Galactidot]

All the Glohm that disappeared was Glohm under his control that's not necessarily all the Glohm in the multiverse. Also yes there are other users but he could still be the only one that embodies it. It's more an embodiment of fire is using its control of fire to spread fires that die out with them.

Ignoring the many issues with this, how about the statements of him being able to eradicate, and therefore scaling to, all Bonds?

(Also, of course all of it was under his control, he created all of it. Even the first traces in Concordia all came from his egg.)

And yes, you yourself admitted here that he certainly embodies it, as the game tells us.

 

[Lou_change]

Ignoring the many issues with this, how about the statements of him being able to eradicate, and therefore scaling to, all Bonds?

The quote you used to prove that
"If we don't stop him... he'll keep doing that, again and again."
That is an over time feat that he does by seperating people not literally overpowering the concept of bonds, it doesn't even say he would ever actually destroy all bonds.

Another quote on the same page also disproves him being the source of all Glohm.
"Everyone carries some Glohm with them. Dark feelings... Loneliness... Disconnectedness..."
Several characters express distress at the idea of being separated during the ending stuff and I am willing to bet those emotions still exist in later games.

 

[IDK3465]

While I do agree that bonds are a UES, we should probably wait until the staff thread is finished before continuing with this

 

[JPTheGamer]

Another quote on the same page also disproves him being the source of all Glohm.
"Everyone carries some Glohm with them. Dark feelings... Loneliness... Disconnectedness..."

That doesn't disprove him being the source of it all. That just means everyone has Glohm in them

 

[JPTheGamer]

While I do agree that bonds are a UES, we should probably wait until the staff thread is finished before continuing with this

What staff thread?

 

[IDK3465]

What staff thread?

Universal Energy System Standards

Good afternoon everybody. I'm splitting my evening in half to talk about how bad our UES page is and why it needs to be elaborated on, or at least have standards put in place for them, because there's a problem with our wiki's overindulgence in "making people scale to attacks they shouldn't...

vsbattles.com

 

[Galactidot]

Another quote on the same page also disproves him being the source of all Glohm.
"Everyone carries some Glohm with them. Dark feelings... Loneliness... Disconnectedness..."
Several characters express distress at the idea of being separated during the ending stuff and I am willing to bet those emotions still exist in later games.

He is the source of it, but Glohm no longer holds power after this. The emotions still exist, but they can't hurt anyone anymore.

The quote you used to prove that
"If we don't stop him... he'll keep doing that, again and again."
That is an over time feat that he does by seperating people not literally overpowering the concept of bonds, it doesn't even say he would ever actually destroy all bonds.

Mario and Luigi being the only ones in the verse capable of stopping him? Yes, he would destroy all bonds.
The Great Conductor also says he's stronger than all except for the Bros, remember?

Please thoroughly read the blog first, that would answer a lot of these questions...

 

[Lou_change]

That doesn't disprove him being the source of it all. That just means everyone has Glohm in them

It still existing after he died does

He is the source of it, but Glohm no longer holds power after this. The emotions still exist, but they can't hurt anyone anymore.

What proves he is the source opposed to anything else

Mario and Luigi being the only ones in the verse capable of stopping him? Yes, he would destroy all bonds

bonds not bond energy also my I see your source for that I don't see it on the blog

 

[JPTheGamer]

It still existing after he died does

A source of something can die or fade away, but that doesn't always mean the concept or thing it embodies will go along with it in fiction. Concepts like fear, justice, or love still continue to exist even after the first thinkers of it passed.

 

[Galactidot]

It still existing after he died does

I'm sorry, but I can't help you if you're not reading. It doesn't.

What proves he is the source opposed to anything else

He is the only one capable of creating it, is treated as such by the narrative and characters, is the source of it, all of it is destroyed when he dies.

You trying to claim otherwise is nothing but baseless conjecture and theory at this point. He is stated to be the one who makes all Glohm by entering worlds through his egg, and introducing it in turn. You're reaching for some counterexample that doesn't exist.

bonds not bond energy also my I see your source for that I don't see it on the blog

Bonds are directly comparable to Bond Energy, please read the blog. There is a section on it.

 

[Lou_change]

A source of something can die or fade away, but that doesn't always mean the concept or thing it embodies will go along with it in fiction. Concepts like fear, justice, or love still continue to exist even after the first thinkers of it passed.

Then you accept it wasn't all destroyed when he died?

He is the only one capable of creating it, is treated as such by the narrative and characters, is the source of it, all of it is destroyed when he dies.

the spite bulbs.

Bonds are directly comparable to Bond Energy, please read the blog. There is a section on it.

he destroys bonds by separating people with mind hax and murder he isn't directly attacking bonds or anything he is attacking the components.

 

[JPTheGamer]

Then you accept it wasn't all destroyed when he died?

Ideas & things outlive their creators; just because someone who is a source of something dies doesn't mean the thing they embodies dies as well. Reclusa can be the embodiment and/or creator of Glohm and still die, but Glohm remaining when he passes away doesn't mean he's NOT the source of it. In short, people who make things (like a story or product) die, but what they created still lives on.

"It is easy to kill individuals, but you cannot kill the ideas." – Bhagat Singh

 

[Galactidot]

Then you accept it wasn't all destroyed when he died?

He never said that. Talk to me, and know what you're talking about. You haven't asked anything that doesn't have an answer easily removable by simply reading the blog and looking at the scans or playing the game. For example:

the spite bulbs.

I addressed this in the blog. Glohm and Bonds are interchangeable forces, but special power is required to change them. Otherwise, for one, by definition of Glohm, we would have seen it's power far sooner in the series. Not even in a "because they thought of it for Brothership" kinda way. There is explanation for all of this. You're starting to annoy me, to be frank.

he destroys bonds by separating people with mind hax and murder he isn't directly attacking bonds or anything he is attacking the components.

Glohm specifically destroys Bonds when in contact, we can see it with that GLOHM RAY and various other story elements. You are literally the only one who is so much of an outside observer you contested this basic fact.

 

[JPTheGamer]

He never said that.

Yeah, it's true; I didn't say that.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I agree fully that Bonds meet criteria of a UES. And I also agree that it justifies a variable tier in the form of "More Bonds equals more power, and there is no set limit to how much stronger it could make one." But I am still a bit skeptical on upscaling from Pure Hearts and Chaos Heart. I fully support upscaling from Dreamy Bowser with Mario Bros being Tier 2 at their peaks though. Though, I'd avoid giving solid ratings and avoid downscaling various other characters for the time being.

 

[Lou_change]

Ideas & things outlive their creators; just because someone who is a source of something dies doesn't mean the thing they embodies dies as well. Reclusa can be the embodiment and/or creator of Glohm and still die, but Glohm remaining when he passes away doesn't mean he's NOT the source of it. In short, people who make things (like a story or product) die, but what they created still lives on.

"It is easy to kill individuals, but you cannot kill the ideas." – Bhagat Singh

This is about ideals, or theories its an entire category of emotion

I addressed this in the blog. Glohm and Bonds are interchangeable forces, but special power is required to change them

It was literally just because the landmass was shattered preventing the flow of Connectar
You have so little evidence he scales to the full power of all bonds of everyone in the multiverse also loses to the of the bonds of just 2 worlds and he destroys worlds one at a time. Directly using dreams is weird for scaling is weird because technically everyone can create dream worlds and technically I think it is the dream version of Recusa who reshapes the dreams. Tier 2 dream Reclusa

 

[Armorchompy]

First named in the 2024 release Mario & Luigi Brothership, Bonds are power derived from the very concept of togetherness. Bonds are heavily utilized in the setting of the game, Concordia. The existence of Bonds keeps the land together, and produces an infinite source of power, according to Dr. Vulko.

It can come in many forms, some of the named ones being Connectar and Lumenade. However, Bonds go far beyond the Land of Concordia, and can be seen long before Brothership. The reason for this is quite apparent due to multiple statements that reveal the true nature of Bonds.

According to Cozette and a Grampy Turnip, Bonds are the very source of existence. Bonds create everything, and spread beyond each universe, creating an infinite cycle of creation, lining up with Dr Vulko calling it "infinite energy". They act as a direct inverse to Glohm, which causes an endless cycle of destruction, creating everything and spreads by ascending beyond every universe it's present in.

I'd like a link to the context of the last two statements. Given the first scan you posted it could just as easily be intending a "if people didn't work together nothing would exist" statement about teamwork or whatever.

Some instances of it being used previously in the series include:

• Mario Galaxy games, it is said Mario's love for Peach was the reason not even a Grand Star amplification could turn the tables against Mario.
  • This also includes Peach enhancing the power of the Star Spirits to amplify amply and destroy power characters, even the Dream Stone.
  • In the Super Mario RPG remake, The Power of Bonds are how all the team attacks/meters.
  • In both SMRPG and Paper Mario series, FP is shared with entire party.
  • In Paper Mario TTYD, appeal generates star power, which is shared between the party. There is a badge in the Japanese version that buffs it called "Wishing with Friends". Said Star Power is created through the wishes of the people, which are regarded as Bonds.
  • Bro Points is the M&L series version of MP/Mana from pretty much every other RPG, Psynergy from Golden Sun, or PK from Earthbound/Mother series. It's not only Bonds by concept of being related to such, but Glohm also destroys it. BP can power magical, physical, and reality defying attacks.
  • In Mario and Luigi Brothership, Groovemaster Dyode explicitly counts Music's power under Bonds. He teaches the Bros a dance technique that can provide life to trees, and his dance also appears numerous times throughout the game in similar circumstances. This hearkens back to DDR Mario Mix, where music plays a similar role.
  • In Bowser's Inside Story, Chakron, a being who has reached the peak of consciousness, claims that everything is a connection of consciousness, and is able to teleport Bowser by moving him between the consciousness of the very land.
• Super Mario Galaxy 2 features the "Gentle Pull", or the "Desire", known as "The Desire To Be Reunited" that transcends both space and time, something not even the laws of the universe can stop.
• In Super Mario RPG, Culex, who claims to hold a power that rules over all creation, is defeated by Bonds.
• Everyone all throughout the various locations in TTYD where who amped Mario, his partners, and Crystal Stars to turn tables against Shadow Queen. This includes characters like Vivian and Flurrie, who solely use magic-based attacks.
• It's not limited to heroes, various enemies can also get amps based on Power of Bonds. In Bowser's Minions, a common them kind of showcases a "United we stand, divided we fall" tradition.
  • That also explains how Goomba and Troopa hoards can sometimes overwhelm Bowser or Fitness trio in large groups.
  • Bowser Jr's bond with Bowser has also demonstrated being an amplification in some games. As well as something he can use to amplify minions due to "Hurting Jr."
  • Bowser and his minions are stated to gain strength from Bonds in Brothership, the very game that solidified these as a tangible source of power.
  • Bowser Junior's Journey hinges on the Bond between Bowser Jr, the Koopalings, and Bowser's Army. SPIRIT is treated as a measure of the team's Bond. Kamek can increase it by coddling Bowser Junior, and Bowser Junior and Captain Goomba can increase it by rallying their teams.

I can easily agree to a generic emotion-based Empowerment ability for the whole verse, that much there's definitely proof for. There's a few baseless connections here though, like the shared MP likely just being a game mechanic and the BiS minions not really being shown to like... actually care for each other to such an extent, they just overpower Bowser together.

To put this all under the name of Bonds I would ask for more evidence. I don't necessarily even think it's wrong but you haven't actually posted scans to prove that Bonds = togetherness and whatnot... even though it's kind of obviously along those lines, the wording might matter.

The Pure Hearts and the Chaos Heart are both explicitly made of Bonds, the latter being made of false ones, being known as Love Power of Chaos in Japan. The Ancients knew how to use Bonds well, creating worlds and the Pure Hearts out of them.

Don't say "explicitly" if it's implicit.

Glohm is sourced from Reclusa, the progenitor of Glohm, and absolute opposition to Bonds.

The scan itself admits that the conceptual interpretation isn't the only one and tries to justify it with "the first one is more applicable" with no real reasoning.

He is stated to be capable of eradicating all Bonds from the multiverse, furthering him scaling to all of Bonds beyond him being its equal.

No he hasn't. They say he'll keep doing it again and again, not that he'll ever manage to destroy all of them in the whole multiverse. This isn't even implied, and even if it was you'd need way more than a possible interpretation of a single line.

The egg is both the SEED of the Soli-tree and EGG of Reclusa, and gained all of it's energy from the same source, that being himself. The Soli-tree and Glohm are equal to Reclusa (with Reclusa's death destroying the Soli-tree, Glohm and everything related), made all of the dreams, and is where he siphons his power from. (See how it's completely in sync with his expressions, and how when he starts expending more energy, it does the same.)

I find the proof of Reclusa being so directly inherently tied to Glohm lacking. It reacting to the state of the battle against him is poor evidence to say he's directly drawing power from it, and for the rest being the origin of something doesn't mean you scale to it. I can build a bomb or have a powerlifter son and that doesn't make me 9-B or 9-C.

Most notably, Reclusa uses Glohm to create dream worlds, which would make sense given Glohm scaling to the 2-A creation of Bonds. Reclusa's Glohm also provides Creation and Stabilization.

This has been gone over before - the dreams aren't made directly, they are not made in a way that scales to Reclusa's own Environmental Destruction, let alone anything else. Arguments to the opposite have been extremely strained.

As we've established, it follows the rules of a UES. I will be quoting the page directly:

"a character or the system they are using must have explanations or showings that indicate that the powers which should scale to each other draw from the same source of power [1]

Bonds are a Multiversal constant, making up existence itself. They can be used to amplify the power of physical attacks, as well as magic attacks through methods like Bros Bomb or Battle Plugs, which can improve potency of either, lining up with this quality.

Glohm can be similarly used, notably on Bosses to improve the power of all of their attacks to an equal degree, boost any chosen stat, or a durability amp using shields that protect against all attacks equally. Glohm is also a Multiversal constant, coming from Reclusa.

You missed an important part. "and use up a similar amount of power to each other." I assume this is what you're trying to prove in the post, and it isn't really done. It can amplify many different things and in specific aspects like statistics amplification it's probably comparable, that doesn't mean you can compare its RW to AP.

"... Alternatively, it would also suffice to show that the user can invest similar amounts of power into any given technique, should they want to." [2] ...

Bonds and Glohm can be converted between each other, and the amount of power used scales equally to the power of the attack being used e.g. Battle Plug recharge time and charge amount scaling in accordance to how powerful the plug was.

This doesn't serve to prove your point. Bonds are a form of energy and more energy can be input into a similar kind of technique, this is what you've proven. Battle Plugs serve to perform attacks, and that's the only thing they're applicable for - but you never needed proof to say "Mario & Luigi can attack harder or less hard if they want to". The important part is "any given technique", and this you have no proof for. You'd need actual evidence that Reclusa can put the same amount of energy he puts into his nonexistent RW feats into his attacks, not that he or the Bros can put more or less energy into an attack.

A good example is Reclusa's death converting all things related to and made from Glohm into Bond Energy.

"The energy can be transformed" is also not it, the way it gets used is what's important.

Additionally, they have to demonstrate or have reliable statements that all their supernatural or otherwise non-physical powers scale to each other in Attack Potency. Hence an increase in power / energy should correspond to a proportional increase in the potency of their powers and abilities [3]"

As mentioned above, Bonds and Glohm can empower both physical and non-physical attacks proportionally, and all of them scale to each other in accordance to the amount utilized.

Again you add information that isn't in the original scan. They do not "scale to each other in accordance", we're just shown that people can stat amp using Bonds. We know that more Bonds = more power, that doesn't mean the increase is 1-to-1 proportional. In particular as you yourself mention "Everyone can use Bonds, but incredibly skilled characters or artifacts are required for Bonds to be used in combat." The fact that one needs skill to even wield Bonds in any way combat-wise implies that it's not just an innate power boost, certainly not one that directly corresponds to the energy increase.

The two forces are able to exchange blows, both physical and non-physical, in combat. As established, Bonds and Glohm are interchangeable, equal forces, exemplified by the existence of Spite Bulbs, Sprite Bulbs (Bond Fairies) disconnected from Bond Energy, which have their power replaced by Glohm thanks to Reclusa, and Reclusa turning into Bond Energy upon his death.

There is no correlation between the two being opposite to one another and the two being UES.

 

[Armorchompy]

Also, just so we're clear ahead of time, I would prefer if massive new arguments tangentially related to the previous ones were not made in the middle of the thread's duration. It seems like proper research was done and obviously supporting previous arguments with new scans is fine, but that sort of behavior poisoned previous threads and I would warn against it now.

 

[JPTheGamer]

This is about ideals, or theories its an entire category of emotion

Ideals & theories can outlive their creators, too; they're metaphysical concepts made by the human mind that continue to endure, even if their progenitor dies.

 

[JPTheGamer]

No, he hasn't. They say he'll keep doing it again and again, not that he'll ever manage to destroy all of them in the whole multiverse. This isn't even implied, and even if it was, you'd need way more than a possible interpretation of a single line.

Doing something "again and again" could potentially mean other things; imo, the context here may imply that Reclusa would continue to do what he's doing several times over until he eventually manages to destroy all of them in a certain timeframe. I mean, that's one way to look at it.

I find the proof of Reclusa being so directly inherently tied to Glohm lacking. It reacting to the state of the battle against him is poor evidence to say he's directly drawing power from it, and for the rest being the origin of something doesn't mean you scale to it. I can build a bomb or have a powerlifter son and that doesn't make me 9-B or 9-C.

If your son or the bomb you made displays energy beyond the limits of humans (Tier 10-C to 10-A), wouldn't that make either of you Tier 9 by default?

You could be a normal human (Tier 10-B) without displaying physical feats over your capabilities, but when you design a bomb that would show Street to Wall level destruction (with or without calculations), you would be 9-C to 9-B via Preparation / Explosion Manipulation. You ARE the source of the bomb since you created it, after all.

Your powerlifter son could simply be depicted as one of the most athletic humans ever, but if he were to show one or a few instances of things like breaking a brick or surviving heights, that should mean he possesses 9-C or 9-B striking strength/durability.

Am I wrong?

It can amplify many different things and in specific aspects like statistics amplification it's probably comparable.

Again you add information that isn't in the original scan. They do not "scale to each other in accordance", we're just shown that people can stat amp using Bonds. We know that more Bonds = more power, that doesn't mean the increase is 1-to-1 proportional.

The UES part of the page states:

In order to qualify for a Universal Energy System and do scaling according to it, a character or the system they are using needs to fulfill all criteria for a Non-physical Energy System. Additionally, they have to demonstrate that they can channel their power through their own bodies in a way that quantifiably enhances them or otherwise allows scaling of their supernatural powers through their physicals. Hence there should be evidence that an increase in power / energy should correspond to a proportional increase in the potency of their physical statistics. In the rare case that it is relevant for scaling the reverse should also be demonstrated: That a feat of non-empowered physical strength applies to the amount of supernatural power. Visual evidence of amplification is not considered necessary.

So, if "people can stat amp using bonds", and "more Bonds=more power", doesn't that indicate you could be using a UES?

I can easily agree to a generic emotion-based Empowerment ability for the whole verse, that much there's definitely proof for. There's a few baseless connections here though, like the shared MP likely just being a game mechanic and the BiS minions not really being shown to like... actually care for each other to such an extent, they just overpower Bowser together.

This has been gone over before - the dreams aren't made directly, they are not made in a way that scales to Reclusa's own Environmental Destruction, let alone anything else. Arguments to the opposite have been extremely strained.

that doesn't mean you can compare its RW to AP.

It seems you're still not sold on Tier 2 base for the cast, but looking over these parts, perhaps you'd be fine with Reclusa in base being Tier 2 via Environmental Destruction, Reality Warping, and Empowerment?

 

[Galactidot]

It was literally just because the landmass was shattered preventing the flow of Connectar
You have so little evidence he scales to the full power of all bonds of everyone in the multiverse also loses to the of the bonds of just 2 worlds and he destroys worlds one at a time. Directly using dreams is weird for scaling is weird because technically everyone can create dream worlds and technically I think it is the dream version of Recusa who reshapes the dreams. Tier 2 dream Reclusa

I literally cannot help you at this point. What?

The Uni Tree holds the land together, not the other way around. How do you think Yggdrasil works?
Everyone can create Dream Worlds, but the flowers are Dream Points, as the Dreams exist before their victims even enter them.

Also, since these Dreams existed BEFORE "Dream Reclusa" even entered them, he created them from the outside, and you've got me messed up with that.

These "two worlds" bonds include Mario and Luigi's bond, and Peach and Bowser's bond, which can create the Chaos Heart, mind you.

Play the game, read the blog, It's up to you. But nothing you have said thus far is remotely true.

Also bro please stop with the "Glohm doesn't destroy Bonds" shtick it's the whole point of Glohm.
With your insistence on Reclusa exclusively working through flowers, I'm convinced you literally just watched one cutscene and bounced.

 

[Armorchompy]

Doing something "again and again" could potentially mean other things; imo, the context here may imply that Reclusa would continue to do what he's doing several times over until he eventually manages to destroy all of them in a certain timeframe. I mean, that's one way to look at it.

There's a million ways to look at it, just because you can put together an argument that something might be the case doesn't mean it's actually what's going on.

You could be a normal human (Tier 10-B) without displaying physical feats over your capabilities, but when you design a bomb that would show Street to Wall level destruction (with or without calculations), you would be 9-C to 9-B via Preparation / Explosion Manipulation. You ARE the source of the bomb since you created it, after all.

Your powerlifter son could simply be depicted as one of the most athletic humans ever, but if he were to show one or a few instances of things like breaking a brick or surviving heights, that should mean he possesses 9-C or 9-B striking strength/durability.

Am I wrong?

And why would either of these things scale back to me, the father of the powerlifter/bombmaker?

So, if "people can stat amp using bonds", and "more Bonds=more power", doesn't that indicate you could be using a UES?

Again with the "could". You need to prove something is true, not prove that it's possible.

It seems you're still not sold on Tier 2 base for the cast, but looking over these parts, perhaps you'd be fine with Reclusa in base being Tier 2 via Environmental Destruction, Reality Warping, and Empowerment?

No because I don't think the dream stuff scales to him, but if you want to rate him as Low 2-C with an kind of indirect ED at this point I don't really mind.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

To the OP. We already discussed Reclusa's methods to the Nightmare creations to death, so it's not worth arguing in circles. Mainly focus on Bonds being a UES as Glohms being 1 is 100% dependent on Bonds being one. But "More Bonds equaling more power" and it being something that interchangeably buffs physical and magical attacks is too face value to ignore. We also have evidence that removal of bonds weakens them, as explained on the page.

If the power source or universal energy system should be removed from a user by some means that should result in a notable loss in physical strength or alternatively even in physical harm or death. That doesn't necessarily mean that they should be reduced to the level of regular humans, though. Note that removal of energy sources can also have detrimental effects if they are not universal and as such negative effects of removal do not necessarily imply universalness.

While removal of bonds hasn't resulted in immediate death, it definitely weakens people or it's implied people will eventually die in isolation. But Mario & Luigi's bond being too strong to separate was the entire plot point for how they overcame Reclusa. And regardless of whether or not someone likes referring "Power of Bonds" as a UES, it is still am amp that justifies variable tiers, and demonstratively can amp characters to cosmic tiers. And at the very least, Mario Bros reaching the level of Dreamy Bowser at their peaks is something they are easily capable of. There are a lot of other things that could be effected as a result of Bonds for sure.

 

[JPTheGamer]

And why would either of these things scale back to me, the father of the powerlifter/bombmaker?

Because you are the one who made the bomb; your AP would be higher via Preparation or Explosion Manipulation, kinda like Black Widow with her bombs, for example, and a lot of iterations of Batman are in the building level AP range but can reach higher tiers via things like Preparation or technology. (Also, this isn't meant to be whataboutism, so I apologize if it sounds like it; it's mostly to reiterate the point)

Btw, you stated you were the father of the powerlifter in that instance, not the bombmaker.

No because I don't think the dream stuff scales to him, but if you want to rate him as Low 2-C with an kind of indirect ED at this point I don't really mind.

Then would you also be fine with Empowerment for the Mario Bros?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Also, the "Producing an off spring" or "Construction of a mechanical bomb" shouldn't be compared to something like "Producing a giant ball of your own Ki that can yield explosive results." Just a minor note.

 

[Galactidot]

I'd like a link to the context of the last two statements. Given the first scan you posted it could just as easily be intending a "if people didn't work together nothing would exist" statement about teamwork or whatever.

The first one is intended to back up the second one. In isolation (no pun intended), I could see what you mean. But Cozette, the Wattanist Bond Guardian, explicitly says ENERGY of Bonds.

I can easily agree to a generic emotion-based Empowerment ability for the whole verse, that much there's definitely proof for. There's a few baseless connections here though, like the shared MP likely just being a game mechanic and the BiS minions not really being shown to like... actually care for each other to such an extent, they just overpower Bowser together.

Shared MP, maybe, except for some scenarios
Bowser's minions, on the other hand? There's a whole game about it showing a HEAVY opposite. See this whole segment:

• It's not limited to heroes, various enemies can also get amps based on Power of Bonds. In Bowser's Minions, a common them kind of showcases a "United we stand, divided we fall" tradition.
  • That also explains how Goomba and Troopa hoards can sometimes overwhelm Bowser or Fitness trio in large groups.
  • Bowser Jr's bond with Bowser has also demonstrated being an amplification in some games. As well as something he can use to amplify minions due to "Hurting Jr."
  • Bowser and his minions are stated to gain strength from Bonds in Brothership, the very game that solidified these as a tangible source of power.
  • Bowser Junior's Journey hinges on the Bond between Bowser Jr, the Koopalings, and Bowser's Army. SPIRIT is treated as a measure of the team's Bond. Kamek can increase it by coddling Bowser Junior, and Bowser Junior and Captain Goomba can increase it by rallying their teams.

To put this all under the name of Bonds I would ask for more evidence. I don't necessarily even think it's wrong but you haven't actually posted scans to prove that Bonds = togetherness and whatnot... even though it's kind of obviously along those lines, the wording might matter.

This wouldn't be necessary for such a broad concept. The game even jokes about how broad it is in the case of Wilma and the Extension Corps! Simply holding hands can account for tangible energy.

Don't say "explicitly" if it's implicit.

I'm a bit confused here, that's not explicit?

The scan itself admits that the conceptual interpretation isn't the only one and tries to justify it with "the first one is more applicable" with no real reasoning.

That's because of later context provided by his death.

I saw Lou_Change earlier claim that Glohm existed before Reclusa, only to switch up when I mentioned his death destroying all of it. I think you guys need to pick your version or the games' version before anything else.

No he hasn't. They say he'll keep doing it again and again, not that he'll ever manage to destroy all of them in the whole multiverse. This isn't even implied, and even if it was you'd need way more than a possible interpretation of a single line.

The only way this would be possible is that after he hypothetically beat Mario and Luigi, the only ones capable of rallying Bonds to stop him, is that Bonds as a whole extend infinitely faster than Reclusa, despite Reclusa being capable of wiping out all Bonds in a dimension, and having done so before.

Also, considering Bonds make dimensions, I think it should now be a lot clearer HOW he destroys worlds, yeah?

I find the proof of Reclusa being so directly inherently tied to Glohm lacking. It reacting to the state of the battle against him is poor evidence to say he's directly drawing power from it, and for the rest being the origin of something doesn't mean you scale to it. I can build a bomb or have a powerlifter son and that doesn't make me 9-B or 9-C.

If your bomb is destroyed or you die, does the other cease to be? Please answer this first.

This has been gone over before - the dreams aren't made directly, they are not made in a way that scales to Reclusa's own Environmental Destruction, let alone anything else. Arguments to the opposite have been extremely strained.

I don't recall you giving me that scan proving he does so through the victim's minds. Give me that to counter mine of him making them before they even touch someone's head, and we can settle this one.

You missed an important part. "and use up a similar amount of power to each other." I assume this is what you're trying to prove in the post, and it isn't really done. It can amplify many different things and in specific aspects like statistics amplification it's probably comparable, that doesn't mean you can compare its RW to AP.

This doesn't serve to prove your point. Bonds are a form of energy and more energy can be input into a similar kind of technique, this is what you've proven. Battle Plugs serve to perform attacks, and that's the only thing they're applicable for - but you never needed proof to say "Mario & Luigi can attack harder or less hard if they want to". The important part is "any given technique", and this you have no proof for. You'd need actual evidence that Reclusa can put the same amount of energy he puts into his nonexistent RW feats into his attacks, not that he or the Bros can put more or less energy into an attack.

"The energy can be transformed" is also not it, the way it gets used is what's important.

I'll let DDM deal with this, unless I decide to later.

Again you add information that isn't in the original scan. They do not "scale to each other in accordance", we're just shown that people can stat amp using Bonds. We know that more Bonds = more power, that doesn't mean the increase is 1-to-1 proportional. In particular as you yourself mention "Everyone can use Bonds, but incredibly skilled characters or artifacts are required for Bonds to be used in combat." The fact that one needs skill to even wield Bonds in any way combat-wise implies that it's not just an innate power boost, certainly not one that directly corresponds to the energy increase.

The better your Bonds, the better you can use them. Yes, I agree with that. Artifacts are needed to wield the full power, except by certain people, like the Ancients.

There is no correlation between the two being opposite to one another and the two being UES.

I figured I'd mention it in the blog anyways, for clarification and to show that all points are checked between Bonds and Glohm.

 

[Lou_change]

The Uni Tree holds the land together, not the other way around. How do you think Yggdrasil works?

The result is the same they are not even using bond energy because they lost access

Also, since these Dreams existed BEFORE "Dream Reclusa" even entered them, he created them from the outside, and you've got me messed up with that.

I see no reason he should be able to directly scale to that it is not as if he could normally create universes he basically just hijacked control of someone elses dream.

These "two worlds" bonds include Mario and Luigi's bond, and Peach and Bowser's bond, which can create the Chaos Heart, mind you.

A Paper Bowser and mind controlled Paper Peach it also it is only said to be unleashed as it required a wedding suggesting it was more of a ritual.

 

[Galactidot]

The result is the same they are not even using bond energy because they lost access

I don't contest the result being the same, but the causation is starkly different, and that's what YOU bought into question.

I see no reason he should be able to directly scale to that it is not as if he could normally create universes he basically just hijacked control of someone elses dream.

Again...

Also, since these Dreams existed BEFORE "Dream Reclusa" even entered them, he created them from the outside, and you've got me messed up with that.
he makes them before they even touch someone's head.
Everyone can create Dream Worlds, but the flowers are Dream Points, as the Dreams exist before their victims even enter them.

Acknowledge this, or don't talk about it. This goes for everybody.

A Paper Bowser and mind controlled Paper Peach it also it is only said to be unleashed as it required a wedding suggesting it was more of a ritual.

This same thing was countered by the Pure Hearts empowered by the villains being sentimental and using their Bond (and Bonds alone) btw. You ain't slick.

 

[JPTheGamer]

I don't contest the result being the same, but the causation is starkly different, and that's what YOU bought into question.

Again...

Also, since these Dreams existed BEFORE "Dream Reclusa" even entered them, he created them from the outside, and you've got me messed up with that.
he makes them before they even touch someone's head.
Everyone can create Dream Worlds, but the flowers are Dream Points, as the Dreams exist before their victims even enter them.

Acknowledge this, or don't talk about it. This goes for everybody.

This same thing was countered by the Pure Hearts empowered by the villains being sentimental and using their Bond (and Bonds alone) btw. You ain't slick.

@Galactidot, I'd like to ask you to please be a little more patient and level-headed here, even if you don't mean otherwise. I get you're really passionate about these threads and are frustrated that they're not getting passed (trust me; I myself and a lot of others are, too), but we don't want what happened in the previous threads you made to also happen here. Okay? Thank you.