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Garou vs Cooler (0-0-0)

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RedReaper616 said:
Cooler yells at him for invading his personal space and then tries to have an intense therapy session
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its-been-a-year-and-a-half-now-i-still-wonder-how-this-v0-16gdqx78omfc1.jpeg
 
RedReaper616 said:
That's not because of the Dimension, that's because of IT itself.

The Afterlife and Living Worlds are "separated," by "space-time," with the Afterlife being a place that "only the dead and those in Heaven can enter," as well as "transcends dimensions." From there the Kaioshin Realm is a "different dimension" from those two. The Dimensions of the Macrocosm are separated by the Overarching Subspace, that lacks Space and Time. Additionally, we know that Ki can affect the Dimensions of the Macrocosm, as you just distort space, and this "Dimension Hole" can be used not just on HTC (which is one of the Subspaces within Overarching Subspace), but affects Dimensions in general and treats them as comparable, as seen with Buuhan.
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Nothing here remotely mentions what i said.

Also the dimensional wall being warped to create a portal is irrelevant to this. I never claimed the travel between dimensions is impossible to begin with.
RedReaper616 said:
It's not that the realms specifically let IT in and work differently. It's because they're literally different dimensions and IT is the only thing that exists that travel dimensions (outside of the Angels' Warp and what was recently revealed in Daima with the giant interdimensional portal fish
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Still not the point. The problem isn't IT but the person using it.
RedReaper616 said:
(Also, the fact HTC cuts people off from the rest of the Macrocosm is something brought up in the Granolah Arc, where the Wish for the Strongest didn't apply to Frieza due to not existing "In the Universe."
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You're basically proving my point, or was the another dimension of time suppose to be in the universe? It's an another dimension.
RedReaper616 said:
Mind you, Eternal Dragons also can use their power across Dimensions, like when Porunga revived Vegeta and Earth {and brought their Souls from Otherworld back}. The HTC is unique in that it as a Dimension severes ties, and it's never indicative to be due to it's Space-Time. It's just something the HTC has.)
Click to expand...
Still fully irrelevant. The problem isn't something like "IT is weak and can't reach other dimensions." The person using it can't.

I'm not talking about every character inverse is incapabe of it or anything.
 
Jaynic1 said:
For the supernova to oneshot garou he would need to be weaker or equal to cooler
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The supernova is a massive amp compared to a x10 like manga canon strongest kamehameha or even more powerfull for toei shenanigans
MrTayman616 said:
Also is supernova that strong? The profile doesn't clarify it as that much
Click to expand...

One of the DB supporters can clarify this better, but for reference, SSJ goku stomped Cooler and supernova almost won him the fight


If garou hits cooler and regenerates (or the other metal cooler got stronger thanks to the experience of the destroyed clone), he is now stronger than garou in that moment, IT+ supernova= one shot in that time Garou when Garou is weaker, and thanks to IT pseudo time stop, Garou has no time to copy nor grow

And multiple supernovas stacking each other also solve the "But Cooler would be weaker", and Garou's regen is not even comparable to Cell and Ki attacks can atomize bodies

Electricity Manipulation, Forcefield Creation & Heat Manipulation (By releasing their Ki auras, they can create a kind of Electromagnetic Field around themselves that burns and repels anything that tries to touch them<a href="https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Ki_Manipulation_(Dragon_Ball)#cite_note-DBAnime143-67"><span>[</span>64<span>]</span></a>)


Radiation getting repelled? Serious question
 
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MrTayman616 said:
Nothing here remotely mentions what i said.

Also the dimensional wall being warped to create a portal is irrelevant to this. I never claimed the travel between dimensions is impossible to begin with.

Still not the point. The problem isn't IT but the person using it.
Click to expand...
That’s not at all what you claimed.

What you actually said was:
Afterlife and Living universe is connected in a special way. Instant Transmission can't go to the room of spirit and time as they can't sense the ki from there, which the reason is it has a "different dimension of time"
Click to expand...
And
Those locations have the statements of being capable to be traveled to via instant transmission.
Click to expand...
(Implying this makes it uniquely vulnerable somehow and not demonstrating its capacity).
It's clearly stated that they can't sense others because they were fighting in a "different dimension of time". That's the reason, which the statement iself is quite clear.

It's not about what you call space-time, but the limitation the verse puts here. Saying "But it's a space-time" is irrelevant. It's a limit in the settings. The exceptions are the locations like Otherworld, not the opposite.
Click to expand...
The implication is Instant Transmission itself cannot travel to other dimensions because of a connection between Dimensions. Additionally, the implication is that the reason the HTC is a limit is because it’s a different Space Time. But there is no connection, (they are described as such), and the Afterlife and Kai World have their own space-time. Your argument literally doesn’t apply.
MrTayman616 said:
You're basically proving my point, or was the another dimension of time suppose to be in the universe? It's an another dimension.
Click to expand...
Considering other dimensions of Time do get teleported to, yes? Plus, the Subspaces are described as part of the Macrocosm. Like, the HTC is the actual minority/exception. When compared to everything IT and Kai Kai (a related technique) go to, it’s very much worked without any known dimensional limit or “connection.”
MrTayman616 said:
Still fully irrelevant. The problem isn't something like "IT is weak and can't reach other dimensions." The person using it can't.
Click to expand...
Again, read above—Not what you claimed, but two, that’s why I also pointed out how Kai Kai literally has none of these restrictions you’re claiming and how IT and Kai Kai are only demonstrated to be different in that one has sensory needs and one doesn’t. Meaning so long as Cooler can sense Garou, he should be fine. The impetus is on you to prove Garou’s Hyperspace literally cuts off interdimensional Ki Sensing.
 
Kazuma_kuwabara said:
The supernova is a massive amp compared to a x10 like manga canon strongest kamehameha or even more powerfull for toei shenanigans


One of the DB supporters can clarify this better, but for reference, SSJ goku stomped Cooler and supernova almost won him the fight


If garou hits cooler and regenerates (or the other metal cooler got stronger thanks to the experience of the destroyed clone), he is now stronger than garou in that moment, IT+ supernova= one shot in that time Garou when Garou is weaker, and thanks to IT pseudo time stop, Garou has no time to copy nor grow

And multiple supernovas stacking each other also solve the "But Cooler would be weaker", and Garou's regen is not even comparable to Cell and Ki attacks can atomize bodies

Electricity Manipulation, Forcefield Creation & Heat Manipulation (By releasing their Ki auras, they can create a kind of Electromagnetic Field around themselves that burns and repels anything that tries to touch them<a href="https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Ki_Manipulation_(Dragon_Ball)#cite_note-DBAnime143-67"><span>[</span>64<span>]</span></a>)


Radiation getting repelled? Serious question
Click to expand...
Reasonable but if garou had already copied IT then cooler wont be able to use it to gurantee a hit as we see goku intercept cooler in the zero time dimension, garou could similarily go inside to avoid cooler.

The link only shows it burning a leaf, if thats all this encompasses then i dont think it will repel radiation but maybe someone more knowledgable can fill me in.
 
Jaynic1 said:
Reasonable but if garou had already copied IT then cooler wont be able to use it to gurantee a hit as we see goku intercept cooler in the zero time dimension, garou could similarily go inside to avoid cooler.
Click to expand...
He can't really copy anything without understanding what he is trying copy innit? It is not a passive thing.
 
Greatsage13th said:
He can't really copy anything without understanding what he is trying copy innit? It is not a passive thing.
Click to expand...
Sure but why wouldnt he be able to understand it? Its a form of dimensional travel which hes already capble.
Teleportation, Dimensional Travel & BFR (Possesses Instant Transmission and used it against Goku and Vegeta in combat<a href="https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Cooler#cite_note-The_Return_of_Cooler-1"><span>[</span>1<span>]</span></a>)


 
Kazuma_kuwabara said:
The supernova is a massive amp compared to a x10 like manga canon strongest kamehameha or even more powerfull for toei shenanigans
Click to expand...
The one time Cooler used it, it didn't completely overpower SSJ Goku, who’s not even twice as strong as him (Cooler stomped Kaioken x20 Goku).
 
Jaynic1 said:
Sure but why wouldnt he be able to understand it? Its a form of dimensional travel which hes already capble.
Teleportation, Dimensional Travel & BFR (Possesses Instant Transmission and used it against Goku and Vegeta in combat<a href="https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Cooler#cite_note-The_Return_of_Cooler-1"><span>[</span>1<span>]</span></a>)


Click to expand...
Hmm. It depends.

Can anyone tell me what medium does Instant Transmission uses to get to a desired location?
 
RedReaper616 said:
That’s not at all what you claimed.

What you actually said was:
Click to expand...
I based it on from ki sensing. The whole (different dimension of time) talks about ki sensing limits as well.

Though sry as i could explain it way better😭
RedReaper616 said:
The implication is Instant Transmission itself cannot travel to other dimensions because of a connection between Dimensions. Additionally, the implication is that the reason the HTC is a limit is because it’s a different Space Time. But there is no connection, (they are described as such), and the Afterlife and Kai World have their own space-time. Your argument literally doesn’t apply
Click to expand...
...that basically supports my argument.

You literally said "HCT is a limit becuase it's a different space-time" and "The implication is Instant Transmission itself cannot travel to other dimensions because of a connection between Dimensions. "

Ki sensing limitation applies to other dimensions, Kai world and Afterlife are the exceptions, not otherwise if it's not proven to begin with.

Though if you have a specific statement of it being cuz of HCT, not because it's a different dimension of time, it'd be fine.
RedReaper616 said:
Considering other dimensions of Time do get teleported to, yes? Plus, the Subspaces are described as part of the Macrocosm. Like, the HTC is the actual minority/exception. When compared to everything IT and Kai Kai (a related technique) go to, it’s very much worked without any known dimensional limit or “connection.”
Click to expand...
That doesn't suit the reasoning given at all.


RedReaper616 said:
Again, read above—Not what you claimed, but two, that’s why I also pointed out how Kai Kai literally has none of these restrictions you’re claiming and how IT and Kai Kai are only demonstrated to be different in that one has sensory needs and one doesn’t. Meaning so long as Cooler can sense Garou, he should be fine. The impetus is on you to prove Garou’s Hyperspace literally cuts off interdimensional Ki Sensing.
Click to expand...
Literally what i claimed the whole time.

The limitation of IT is the user. Characters like Goku isn't capable of sensing people in HCT with the whole reason being "it has a different dimension of time".

Garou just sends him to gap in space time where time flow is different.
Greatsage13th said:
That's Subspace. If that's the medium used, Garou can't copy let alone sense the energies of someone mid-Instant Transmission.
Click to expand...
He copies the start, when they start to use the technique. He doesn't need to know where they ended up or anything.

He sees and understands how it is.
 
MrTayman616 said:
He copies the start, when they start to use the technique. He doesn't need to know where they ended up or anything.

He sees and understands how it is.
Click to expand...
I'd just like to point out, if he does manage to copy it. It'd be Instant Transmission, but a heavily watered down version of it. Because, whatever he got out of that copy would lack the capabilities to use a medium that lacks medium, on top of lacking time and history which does not exist and is beyond them all together.
 
Greatsage13th said:
I'd just like to point out, if he does manage to copy it. It'd be Instant Transmission, but a heavily watered down version of it. Because, whatever he got out of that copy would lack the capabilities to use a medium that lacks medium, on top of lacking time and history which does not exist and is beyond them all together.
Click to expand...
Minor correction because I don't want to get involved. Time and history is not beyond the dimension. It's explicitly stated the dimension transcends time. They exist below it, not beyond it.
 
Greatsage13th said:
I'd just like to point out, if he does manage to copy it. It'd be Instant Transmission, but a heavily watered down version of it. Because, whatever he got out of that copy would lack the capabilities to use a medium that lacks medium, on top of lacking time and history which does not exist and is beyond them all together.
Click to expand...
It's use is via dimensional travel. The rest is because of how the subspace works, no? It wouldn't be different. Imagine how Goku learned it. Or that would mean no one can learn this technique unless they specifically go to that space and analyze it with great detail, no?
 
MrTayman616 said:
It's use is via dimensional travel. The rest is because of how the subspace works, no? It wouldn't be different. Imagine how Goku learned it. Or that would mean no one can learn this technique unless they specifically go to that space and analyze it with great detail, no?
Click to expand...
Point is, Garou has no way of using the Subspace medium for instant transmission and has to settle for something less potent and far more cumbersome compared to the original.
 
MrTayman616 said:
I based it on from ki sensing. The whole (different dimension of time) talks about ki sensing limits as well.
Click to expand...
The HTC just innately separates you from the rest of everything, even to things that affect other dimensions, and blocks Ki Sensing.
MrTayman616 said:
Though sry as i could explain it way better😭

...that basically supports my argument.
Click to expand...
…Because I was explaining your argument. I quoted you and explained the implication of your words. They don’t match what you later claim (mostly because of how you phrased it).
MrTayman616 said:
You literally said "HCT is a limit becuase it's a different space-time" and "The implication is Instant Transmission itself cannot travel to other dimensions because of a connection between Dimensions. "
Click to expand...
Quoting you.
MrTayman616 said:
Ki sensing limitation applies to other dimensions, Kai world and Afterlife are the exceptions, not otherwise if it's not proven to begin with.
Click to expand...
No, it’s legit the other way around. The HTC is the only Dimension this has ever happened with, all other Dimensions of Time/Space-Times we’ve seen are capable of being traveled to by IT.
MrTayman616 said:
Though if you have a specific statement of it being cuz of HCT, not because it's a different dimension of time, it'd be fine.
Click to expand...
It’s never been implied it’s due to being a different dimension of time. All that is said is that it cuts you off from the world (entirely). This even applies to the Eternal Dragons, which explicitly affect other dimensions (as well as their time).
MrTayman616 said:
The limitation of IT is the user. Characters like Goku isn't capable of sensing people in HCT with the whole reason being "it has a different dimension of time".
Click to expand...
Not the case.
MrTayman616 said:
Garou just sends him to gap in space time where time flow is different.
Click to expand...
But what evidence is there that the Hyperspace cuts off Ki Sensing? Again, your explanation isn’t actually supported by the text.
 
Kazuma_kuwabara said:
And multiple supernovas stacking each other also solve the "But Cooler would be weaker", and Garou's regen is not even comparable to Cell and Ki attacks can atomize bodies

Electricity Manipulation, Forcefield Creation & Heat Manipulation (By releasing their Ki auras, they can create a kind of Electromagnetic Field around themselves that burns and repels anything that tries to touch them<a href="https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Ki_Manipulation_(Dragon_Ball)#cite_note-DBAnime143-67"><span>[</span>64<span>]</span></a>)


Radiation getting repelled? Serious question
Click to expand...
The issue is that Garous copying is sight based. Not as in seeing the move, but seeing the user. The battle begins and he already gets IT. As in, the moment one disappears and slugs him, he’s going to know what they are doing and obviously know why it’s useful to also do it. Once they are both in the it realm, the battle is now essentially just a matter of ap and speed again. and again. Also, if all these coolers are coming out of the Big Gete star, Garou is going to just destroy it.

As for the radiation, I would assume no. Have they ever blocked light? Or even implied they could? And I mean sunlight or anything similar. And even if they did, something egregiously more penetrative and energetic is what we’re dealing with
 
StekFence said:
The issue is that Garous copying is sight based. Not as in seeing the move, but seeing the user. The battle begins and he already gets IT. As in, the moment one disappears and slugs him, he’s going to know what they are doing and obviously know why it’s useful to also do it. Once they are both in the it realm, the battle is now essentially just a matter of ap and speed again. and again. Also, if all these coolers are coming out of the Big Gete star, Garou is going to just destroy it.

As for the radiation, I would assume no. Have they ever blocked light? Or even implied they could? And I mean sunlight or anything similar. And even if they did, something egregiously more penetrative and energetic is what we’re dealing with
Click to expand...
I know how potent Garou's mimicry is. But it's not potent enough to copy nonexistence traversing Instant Transmission.
 
I feel like Garou could totally copy IT. It’s literally just Dimensional Travel into a Subspace (and back, even across Dimensions). He can already do that part with his Portals and Hyperspace. It’d just be a matter of understanding how Cooler sends himself there by thought rather than by Portal, and figuring out where the Subspace is, Interdimensionally, to use it himself. Not to mention he was on his way to learning Time Travel, so he’s got experience with not just the interdimensional part, but the temporal (although not quite the same), so he definitely has a decent shot at genuinely understanding it once he’s been hit.

EDIT: Honestly, Cooler likes to play with his food a lot, which means even though Cooler can spam to game end, he likely won’t and will instead spam to toy with Garou. He does this to Base Goku outright. That gives Garou plenty of time to see, learn, adapt, understand it, etc.
 
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Phoenks said:
Idk if this is a real argument or just banter 😭

Radiation would cause em to malfunction/get destroyed. Especially GRB
Click to expand...
That is true. But then again, the Cooler in the flesh managed to remain unfaze getting smashed against the largest nuclear reaction in the solar system for over half a minute and died to an explosion before the radiation did. So I'd say his metal body is gonna upscale what his flesh could do.
 
Actually, was the weird Solar Flare thing the Sun did in the first Cooler film ever calc'd? In general? The GRB is gonna be better anyway, but I've never seen numbers for the Cooler feat.
 
Looking around, should be something like trillions upon trillions of a difference. Something like 30 zeros.
 
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