Bleach - Kisuke Changes

[MillenniumSunny]

Premise​

Kisuke is currently listed as Multi Solar System due to scaling to Aizen. While I do think it's reasonable to have him at that level, I think the page currently heavily overrates him and implies he is capable of outputting that level of AP in base, which I disagree with.

The reasoning for him scaling to Base and Second Fusion Aizen currently on the page are below.

Flawed Current Reasoning​

Jugeki Byakurai​

Here, Kisuke pierces a hole in Aizen with a Jugeki Byakurai from his staff. There is one glaring flaw in this feat. Aizen is clearly off guard. He had no idea Kisuke was there until he's shot, he's mid-transformation at the time, Isshin and Ichigo are arguing, and Gin is present too. The rest of the arguments will further the idea that Kisuke isn't a match for Aizen with regular attacks.

Hiasobi Benihime - Juzu Tsunagi​

With Juzu Tsunagi, Kisuke creates a large explosion that burns Second Fusion Aizen's shell. I don't think this feat is very impressive at all, and it may not even be a feat. Not only does Aizen mock how weak the attack was on the same page, he's barely injured. First of all, this point isn't very important, but the colored version seems to slightly overstate the damage he took compared to the original black and white. While I understand that the colored version is official and Kubo checks them, he doesn't check every part, only the parts he's asked to look at. Not only that, Kubo himself only hastily checks colors between his work schedule, leading him to not even remember what colors he made things. For this reason, I would use the black and white version instead. Obviously, he still appears to be burnt in the original, so this part wasn't necessary, just something I wanted to point out.

In the very next page after the explosion, the burn marks are gone. While this could obviously just be Kubo not wanting to draw them again, I have my doubts with that too. He still draws all the cracks in his shell from Yoruichi’s attacks, which would be way more tedious to draw than a few burn marks, and Aizen is literally there for two more pages the whole chapter. It wouldn’t be a ton of work. This isn’t just regeneration either, as Aizen’s shell regenerates slowly, which we know from the damage it sustains against Yoruichi and Isshin. Either the “burn marks” were just soot from the explosion, or they really were just so minimal that Kubo didn’t bother to draw them again. The move was entirely a diversion for Isshin’s Getsuga Tensho, which did the real damage. In either case, I wouldn’t scale Kisuke to Aizen for it. (Also, I wouldn’t even say the shell is as durable or heat resistant as Aizen without further evidence considering how Aizen is unharmed by attacks that shatter the shell easily.) It’s unclear whether or not Aizen was even damaged at all, and if he was, it was so little that Kubo didn’t consider it important enough to keep drawing after one page. I would call it a HUGE stretch to even downscale him from Aizen with this.

Gin’s Statement​

Gin implies to Ichigo that he has no chance of defeating an opponent that Isshin, Yoruichi, and Urahara couldn’t. This doesn’t make much sense to me because Gin is obviously talking about the 3v1. This is also a fatigued Ichigo. I don’t see why it would put Urahara alone over Ichigo, especially considering further context, which I’ll talk about later.

Senju Koten Taiho​

The most blatant feat here, and the only one I believe. But not for the reasons on profile. It’s currently said that Urahara’s Senju Koten Taiho would have killed a pre-Hōgyoku Aizen, which is totally out of context. Looking at the page before, Aizen actually says the battle would have been over due to Urahara’s plan of blocking his spirit vents, with the Senju Koten Taiho being only a distraction. However, I would still believe this attack being able to harm a pre-Hōgyoku Aizen. Not only does it somehow insert Kisuke’s seal into Hōgyoku Aizen, Aizen is visibly scared by Urahara’s incantation when he realizes what the attack is, and even attempts to stop him. But after taking the attack, Aizen realizes how much stronger he’s gotten, now claiming even a Kido in the 90s isn’t worth dodging, despite his attempts earlier. Due to Aizen being scared of it and the fact that being unscathed by the Hado made him realize he had no need for caution, Urahara’s AP with a full incantation high level Kido should scale to a base Aizen.

Aizen’s Statement​

Aizen says that Urahara’s powers were once his equal, pre-Hōgyoku. This statement on its own doesn’t mean very much. It absolutely could just be referring to Urahara’s max output, or even “equal” just in the sense that he’s now a transcendent being and therefore fundamentally different. And again, with further context in the next section, this statement doesn’t make any sense if you interpret it as them being actual equals.

Further Context​

Earlier in the same arc, Urahara gets an attack with Benihime slapped aside and destroyed by base Ulquiorra. Not only that, Benihime’s constructs are shown to have higher durability than Urahara himself. Base Ulquiorra is obviously way weaker than base Aizen. While Urahara does survive a few attacks from Aizen, he only takes an attack from his bare hand which slashes through him easily and only seems to not do more because of the distance and it being a relatively shallow cut. Also, Bleach characters are accepted as having Type 2 Immortality and a character like Urahara can easily keep functioning after being slashed across the chest. For these reasons, Urahara’s durability and regular AP shouldn’t scale to MSS. He should only reach that point through full incantation Kido. To support this, Urahara consistently fights and doesn’t instantly stomp Espada like Luppi and Yammy (the whole portable Gigai and analysis thing would be pointless otherwise), and also gets pressed by base Wonderweiss, which wouldn’t make any sense if he was an equal to Aizen, who is easily beyond all the Espada.

There’s also Urahara saying Ichigo’s first Getsuga would have ripped his arm off if not for Benihime’s shield, but we could just take that as Zangetsu not limiting his power at that moment like he normally does, because it wouldn’t make sense for pre-Soul Society Ichigo to be that strong otherwise. This obviously wouldn’t scale to a True Shikai Getsuga considering it’s not named yet and he doesn’t have an Asauchi.

And no, this isn’t Urahara just randomly getting massively stronger over the course of the arc without explanation. As said by Kubo, those who have been Captains for long periods of time don’t show much growth because they already have lots of combat experience and have pretty much reached their potential. While Urahara doesn’t technically hold the position of Captain anymore, he’s been Captain level for over a hundred years, and all the same logic should apply to him. For these reasons, we should also just combine all his keys into one.

Rammifications​

Quilge should keep his Multi-Solar scaling considering Urahara couldn’t hurt him while he has Blut active, even with Ichigo distracting him, which should include a full incantation Senju Koten Taiho, which can harm pre-Hōgyoku Aizen. Also, scaling to FB Bankai Ichigo. I don’t believe there’s anyone else that needs Urahara to scale to Aizen, considering Isshin and Yoruichi have their own feats, and Ichigo scales via alternative methods. Even Bankai Ginjo has CFYOW stuff and has Ichigo’s powers so could theoretically scale via a rage amp the same way Ichigo can. Therefore, this shouldn’t lower anyone from the Gremmy scaling chain besides Urahara.


TLDR: Urahara AP downgrade to only being MSS with full incantation Kido and not scaling otherwise, combine all his keys into one

I think we could apply the logic of combining keys into one to several other characters, but that’s probably a topic for another day

Agree: Damage3245, DarkDragonMedeus
Disagree:
Neutral:

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

TLDR: Urahara AP downgrade to only being MSS with full incantation Kido and not scaling otherwise, combine all his keys into one

I don't know if you believe it or not, but I was just thinking of opening the CRT of this proposition.

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

I read the CRT and I agree with it 100%.

And no, this isn’t Urahara just randomly getting massively stronger over the course of the arc without explanation. As said by Kubo, those who have been Captains for long periods of time don’t show much growth because they already have lots of combat experience and have pretty much reached their potential. While Urahara doesn’t technically hold the position of Captain anymore, he’s been Captain level for over a hundred years, and all the same logic should apply to him. For these reasons, we should also just combine all his keys into one.

As further evidence, I'd like to add this manga panel: Ukitake thinks four months is a very insufficient time to get stronger. Aizen and his Espada attacked before four months. There's only about a month and two to three days between the Ulquiorra vs. Urahara fight and the Aizen vs. Urahara fight. Even four months is enough to get stronger. Urahara couldn't have gone from a level below Holding Back Base Ulquiorra to Aizen in one month. Even a young prodigy like Toshiro only became strong enough to defeat Cang Du with just nine days of training. Soi Fon, while weaker than BG9, could only defeat him with Omeada's help and Bankai after nine days of training. I'm using Toshiro and Soi Fon as examples because they are younger characters than Urahara, and both became captains after him.

Furthermore, CFYOW states that Urahara is Aizen's equal in Kido and Hakuda. I think his profile should be separated into physical AP and Kido AP, like Kukaku's.

It's a nice CRT.

 

[Damage3245]

OP looks reasonable to me.

 

[MillenniumSunny]

I read the CRT and I agree with it 100%.

As further evidence, I'd like to add this manga panel: Ukitake thinks four months is a very insufficient time to get stronger. Aizen and his Espada attacked before four months. There's only about a month and two to three days between the Ulquiorra vs. Urahara fight and the Aizen vs. Urahara fight. Even four months is enough to get stronger. Urahara couldn't have gone from a level below Holding Back Base Ulquiorra to Aizen in one month. Even a young prodigy like Toshiro only became strong enough to defeat Cang Du with just nine days of training. Soi Fon, while weaker than BG9, could only defeat him with Omeada's help and Bankai after nine days of training. I'm using Toshiro and Soi Fon as examples because they are younger characters than Urahara, and both became captains after him.

Furthermore, CFYOW states that Urahara is Aizen's equal in Kido and Hakuda. I think his profile should be separated into physical AP and Kido AP, like Kukaku's.

It's a nice CRT.

Thanks. To be honest, even the examples with Tōshirō and Soi Fon would be a bit of a stretch, considering Soi Fon’s boost was perfecting Shunko, which she had been working on for way more than the nine days, she just happened to finish it in that time. And even Toshiro didn’t have much of a boost, he just came up with new strategies to fight using less ice.

New to the wiki, at what point can the page be changed? And what’s the process for changing it?

 

[MillenniumSunny]

that was weird lol, post got approved and suddenly said it was waiting for approval again. It’s back now.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Looks reasonable

 

[Guacamolefletcher]

Will respond today, but this is inaccurate. Do not pass this yet

 

[MillenniumSunny]

Will respond today, but this is inaccurate. Do not pass this yet

alright, by the way, do you mind responding to this one before that other Transcendence CRT since this one is simpler and I think we can resolve it quickly?

also, even if you don't have scans, just summing up your arguments without scans would be helpful for me so I can gather scans in advance and save time

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Doesn’t Aizen straight up say Kisuke was his equal?siggesting he was his match prior to evolutions. I’m not sure about this kido scaling only, it doesn’t really make sense considering how the energy system for Bleach works unless I’m forgetting something.

 

[MillenniumSunny]

Doesn’t Aizen straight up say Kisuke was his equal?siggesting he was his match prior to evolutions. I’m not sure about this kido scaling only, it doesn’t really make sense considering how the energy system for Bleach works unless I’m forgetting something.

I mentioned that on the original post. Contextually, Kisuke consistently struggles against Espada, who Aizen wipes effortlessly. It makes no sense for them to be equals. I also provided proof he didn't get any stronger over time. I also mentioned possible alternate interpretations for Aizen's equals statement. Please read the original post.

 

[Damage3245]

Narratively Aizen also experienced great loneliness because he couldn't find anyone to be his equal. Wouldn't make a lot of sense of Kisuke to equal him in raw power.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

I mentioned that on the original post. Contextually, Kisuke consistently struggles against Espada, who Aizen wipes effortlessly. It makes no sense for them to be equals. I also provided proof he didn't get any stronger over time. I also mentioned possible alternate interpretations for Aizen's equals statement. Please read the original post.

I’m inclined to trust Aizen’s own words. There is no other way to interpret Aizen’s statement of Kisuke being his equal on intelligence and even power before he evolved.

I see you mentioned a CFYOW statement that apparently clarifies this statement, which book is it in? If it states what you claim it states I’d be inclined to agree.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Narratively Aizen also experienced great loneliness because he couldn't find anyone to be his equal. Wouldn't make a lot of sense of Kisuke to equal him in raw power.

The scan the OP posted has Aizen saying he is. Unless “power” means something else.

 

[MillenniumSunny]

T

I’m inclined to trust Aizen’s own words. There is no other way to interpret Aizen’s statement of Kisuke being his equal on intelligence and even power before he evolved.

I see you mentioned a CFYOW statement that apparently clarifies this statement, which book is it in? If it states what you claim it states I’d be inclined to agree.

That wasn’t me that mentioned that, ask @Apolinir.Scale if he has it. But still, Aizen’s one off statement just makes no sense with the rest of the manga, and again, it DOES NOT HAVE TO MEAN THEY WERE EQUALS IN POWER.

It’s just as likely that it’s referring to how Aizen had evolved past the playing field of a normal Soul Reaper by becoming a transcendent being.

We’d have to upgrade base Ulquiorra above Aizen for this to make sense lmfao.

Aizen even calls his old powers “unequaled” ONE CHAPTER AGO.

 

[MillenniumSunny]

The scan the OP posted has Aizen saying he is. Unless “power” means something else.

most likely, it's just in reference to Aizen no longer being a soul reaper, as I've said. again, I showed multiple scans establishing Urahara consistently getting pressed by characters base Aizen is shown to effortlessly obliterate.

 

[Guacamolefletcher]

alright, by the way, do you mind responding to this one before that other Transcendence CRT since this one is simpler and I think we can resolve it quickly?

also, even if you don't have scans, just summing up your arguments without scans would be helpful for me so I can gather scans in advance and save time

Yes, will do

 

[Guacamolefletcher]

Jugeki Byakurai​

Here, Kisuke pierces a hole in Aizen with a Jugeki Byakurai from his staff. There is one glaring flaw in this feat. Aizen is clearly off guard

I think this criticism is founded upon a misunderstanding of how arc did the justifications. Arc doesn’t have “being stronger than the espada” as reasoning for Aizen being 4-A (example), it’s to strengthen certain inverse scaling decisions. Now, here’s the thing, Aizen’s off guard durability matters.

We see time and time again throughout the series that characters have a specific durability while off guard. They guard specific areas when they know they’re going to take damage, but passive reiatsu guards them to a certain extent.

Now, who does Aizen’s off guard durability scale to? We know Shinji can knick it and a post-resurrection Bankai + Striped Masked Ichigo’s Getsuga does damage him while off guard, even if it doesn’t fully do him in.

Though this doesn’t justify full Base Aizen level scaling for Urahara, it is crucial to note that this is scaling for his AP with a simple, chant-less mid-tier kido being able to pierce something over 2x as strong as resurrección Yammy’s cero (because Striped Mask Ichigo damaged Yammy at HALF POWER, stated by Unohana)

This makes Kisuke already be about as strong as high-tier sternritter characters (elite-tier Schutstaffel sternritters at that)

Hiasobi Benihime - Juzu Tsunagi​

With Juzu Tsunagi, Kisuke creates a large explosion that burns Second Fusion Aizen's shell. I don't think this feat is very impressive at all, and it may not even be a feat. Not only does Aizen mock how weak the attack was on the same page, he's barely injured

Well, actually, he isn’t injured at all, making this partly a straw-man argument. We are not arguing that his shell is his own body, because it’s not. In fact, we think all of them dealt exactly 0 damage to Aizen himself, it’s just it slightly burned the shell.

Aizen himself is mocking it because his power is so strong, it does 0 damage. How ever, this is an Aizen that is already so strong he cannot be sensed, making him stronger than squad 0, so it’s not exactly an anti-feat here.

First of all, this point isn't very important, but the colored version seems to slightly overstate the damage he took compared to the original black and white. While I understand that the colored version is official and Kubo checks them, he doesn't check every part, only the parts he's asked to look at. Not only that, Kubo himself only hastily checks colors between his work schedule, leading him to not even remember what colors he made things. For this reason, I would use the black and white version instead. Obviously, he still appears to be burnt in the original, so this part wasn't necessary, just something I wanted to point out

This point is very iffy. Some things go through, but overall he does check the colored version and it’s the canon depiction of the manga’s colors.

It is the only thing we have which depicts this, hence it should supersede the b&w version lacking colors. Furthermore, you are forced to concede it still does burn the shell.

Finally, Kubo often forgets to draw damage later on. This does not retcon the previous panel’s depiction of damage, it shows he just didn’t want to draw it or forgot.

When judging the damage to Aizen’s shell, we should look at the panel which shows the actual aftermath and damage, not the panels which forgo these details, even if they’re minor, to minimize Kubo’s difficulty.

Either the “burn marks” were just soot from the explosion, or they really were just so minimal that Kubo didn’t bother to draw them again

We’ve never seen explosion damage appear as soot in this way, and it would not make sense. Soot is residue from the chemical reactants and products from combustion. Here, we’re dealing with spiritual pressure, so there shouldn’t be any products like these.

Aizen’s Statement​

Aizen says that Urahara’s powers were once his equal, pre-Hōgyoku. This statement on its own doesn’t mean very much. It absolutely could just be referring to Urahara’s max output, or even “equal” just in the sense that he’s now a transcendent being and therefore fundamentally different. And again, with further context in the next section, this statement doesn’t make any sense if you interpret it as them being actual equals.

Aizen wouldn’t tell f*cking lieutenants that their powers were equal prior to the transformation. In fact, he denigrates all of the espada.

Why would he take Urahara’s power as unequal to himself based on this statement if it’s only a reference to meager shinigami powers? Especially considering your later downplay scaling.

Further Context​

Earlier in the same arc, Urahara gets an attack with Benihime slapped aside and destroyed by base Ulquiorra. Not only that, Benihime’s constructs are shown to have higher durability than Urahara himself. Base Ulquiorra is obviously way weaker than base Aizen. While Urahara does survive a few attacks from Aizen, he only takes an attack from his bare hand which slashes through him easily and only seems to not do more because of the distance and it being a relatively shallow cut. Also, Bleach characters are accepted as having Type 2 Immortality and a character like Urahara can easily keep functioning after being slashed across the chest. For these reasons, Urahara’s durability and regular AP shouldn’t scale to MSS. He should only reach that point through full incantation Kido. To support this, Urahara consistently fights and doesn’t instantly stomp Espada like Luppi and Yammy (the whole portable Gigai and analysis thing would be pointless otherwise), and also gets pressed by base Wonderweiss, which wouldn’t make any sense if he was an equal to Aizen, who is easily beyond all the Espada.

I’m going to try and limit my commentary here, but this is a dishonest argument, which is inconsistent within itself.

Urahara explicitly trains and prepares for this battle, and Yammy is known to be significantly weaker than Luppi. The only logical conclusion here is that Urahara gets stronger through training.

There’s also Urahara saying Ichigo’s first Getsuga would have ripped his arm off if not for Benihime’s shield, but we could just take that as Zangetsu not limiting his power at that moment like he normally does, because it wouldn’t make sense for pre-Soul Society Ichigo to be that strong otherwise. This obviously wouldn’t scale to a True Shikai Getsuga considering it’s not named yet and he doesn’t have an Asauchi.

This point complete destroys your own argument. NON-Lieutenant level ICHIGO can harm him.

Your interpretation that zangetsu made this random unnamed Getsuga stronger than any ichigo made through the entire soul society arc for no reason contradicts the entire narrative of ichigo getting stronger over time.

He gets increases up to the final Getsuga tensho, and him losing his powers.

And no, this isn’t Urahara just randomly getting massively stronger over the course of the arc without explanation. As said by Kubo, those who have been Captains for long periods of time don’t show much growth because they already have lots of combat experience and have pretty much reached their potential. While Urahara doesn’t technically hold the position of Captain anymore, he’s been Captain level for over a hundred years, and all the same logic should apply to him. For these reasons, we should also just combine all his keys into one.

This is completely dishonest because Urahara wasn’t even born when the captains that actually applies to (Shunsui, Ukitake, Unohana, Yamamoto)

He is Yoruichi’s age, and she wasn’t alive during SAFWY.

Furthermore, if we steel man this position, we have to think Urahara is Yammy level in CFYOW, where Tokinada concedes Urahara can one-shot him.

Same Tokinada that’s Royal Guard Byakuya level. So base Yammy can fight that? F*CK NO.

CFYOW Urahara fights and clashes with Aura Michibane, who’s power is compared to base Aizen’s kido power (making this Urahara scaling more consistent).

Same Urahara that’s so strong, Askin thinks he’s a monster, and that he needs to use special abilities on him because of his monster reiatsu, and is stronger than Yoruichi.

There is nothing random about Urahara getting stronger through a training arc.

Yes, the scaling of the series is somewhat grounded, but most people can train and get stronger. This final point completely discredits the thread, because its implications would break scaling for the entire verse, and consistently established ideas within the series.

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

Doesn’t Aizen straight up say Kisuke was his equal?

This statement is being misinterpreted. The reason he says "our powers are not equal" is that Aizen has now surpassed shinigami thanks to the Hogyoku. Urahara, however, is still a shinigami with limited power. Furthermore, in the Bleach series, "Power" doesn't always refer to AP. Furthermore, the statement that Aizen has been superior to everyone since childhood and therefore alone, the statement about Yamamoto possessing the strongest fire-type zanpaktou, the fact that Holding Back Base Ulquiorra > Shikai Urahara, Base Wonderweiss nearly blitzing Urahara, etc., all prove that Urahara is no match for Aizen in Raw AP.

The statement about Yamamoto's zanpaktou translates to Shikai Yamamoto > Shikai Isshin ~ Shikai Urahara. Aizen without the Hogyoku is powerful enough to damage Yamamoto.

I see you mentioned a CFYOW statement that apparently clarifies this statement, which book is it in? If it states what you claim it states I’d be inclined to agree.

The CFYOW statement I mentioned indicates that Urahara and Aizen are only equal in Kido and Hakuda. This wiki includes characters like Kukaku and Rukia whose Kido Ap is higher than their Zanpaktou Ap. This may be the case for Urahara as well. Since we don't know Aizen's level with Hakuda, we can't comment on whether his being a match for Urahara is good or bad. Either Tokinada or Aura stated that they were equal in Kido and Hakuda. It's possible Tokinada would have known this from watching the FKT battles.

 

[Arcker123]

Narratively Aizen also experienced great loneliness because he couldn't find anyone to be his equal. Wouldn't make a lot of sense of Kisuke to equal him in raw power.

This is a misreading of his narrative. Aizen admits physical inferiority to others on occasion (Yama) and intellectual inferiority (Kisuke himself). Aizen had a view on the world no one else shared. That's all.

 

[Guacamolefletcher]

Narratively Aizen also experienced great loneliness because he couldn't find anyone to be his equal. Wouldn't make a lot of sense of Kisuke to equal him in raw power.

Kisuke literally only became that strong in the deicide arc. Before that, he's espada level.

He explictly concedes to Yamamoto, and is relative to Unohana, only capable of beating her in an extended fight using KS.

You're going off-of an incorrect narrative, this ain't Clorox.

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

Urahara gets stronger through training.

According to Ukitake, 4 months is not enough time to get stronger. There is less than 4 months between Ulquiorra vs Urahara and Aizen vs Urahara. Urahara is not shown to have trained to get stronger during that time.

Same Tokinada that’s Royal Guard Byakuya level. So base Yammy can fight that? F*CK NO.

I think you're equating Tokinada with Byakuya based on his Reiatsu, but there are many things that contradict Reiatsu = power.

Besides that, I don't think it's right to scale Byakuya to Yammy. We discussed it before. I've come up with a few more arguments since then. I might need to create a detailed CRT for Byakuya in the future.

 

[Guacamolefletcher]

please don't shotgun, as it is a dishonest form of argumentation.

This statement is being misinterpreted. The reason he says "our powers are not equal" is that Aizen has now surpassed shinigami thanks to the Hogyoku.

This is not a binding interpretation, and I already explained how it makes no sense.

Aizen's powers aren't equal to some random fodder shinigami, and he wouldn't say that to a shinigami he's not in equal footing with.

The statement about Yamamoto's zanpaktou translates to Shikai Yamamoto > Shikai Isshin ~ Shikai Urahara. Aizen without the Hogyoku is powerful enough to damage Yamamoto.

This is a bad argument. You realize you can be >~ someone? Also, Aizen is also waeker than Ryujin Jakka, he concedes inferiority to it. Ryujin Jakka is stronger than both Isshin and Yamamoto. Aizen is only ~< Yamamoto.

The CFYOW statement I mentioned indicates that Urahara and Aizen are only equal in Kido and Hakuda. This wiki includes characters like Kukaku and Rukia whose Kido Ap is higher than their Zanpaktou Ap. This may be the case for Urahara as well. Since we don't know Aizen's level with Hakuda, we can't comment on whether his being a match for Urahara is good or bad. Either Tokinada or Aura stated that they were equal in Kido and Hakuda. It's possible Tokinada would have known this from watching the FKT battles.

We see with Urahara that his kido isn't drastically stronger than his normal attack potency, given the fight with Aizen. His benihime abilities are still relative to his kido to a significant extent.

Aizen's level with Hakuda is literally Aizen level, what the f*ck? It's his ability to use spiritual pressure fighting. This is a terrible argument. Equal to Aizen's level with kido is already a concession about him being Aizen level though.

According to Ukitake, 4 months is not enough time to get stronger. There is less than 4 months between Ulquiorra vs Urahara and Aizen vs Urahara. Urahara is not shown to have trained to get stronger during that time.

I think you're equating Tokinada with Byakuya based on his Reiatsu, but there are many things that contradict Reiatsu = power.

Besides that, I don't think it's right to scale Byakuya to Yammy. We discussed it before. I've come up with a few more arguments since then. I might need to create a detailed CRT for Byakuya in the future.

They somehow still do. Ukitake might be talking about himself, yet people like Byakuya go from being below all the espada to f*cking above all the espada.

There is nothing that contradicts Reiatsu = power, it is literally how the series f*cking works. This is like back to basics, type of stuff. It's reinforced always. We've never seen someone with reiatsu > someone be weaker than that person. It's just not how it works, not how its explained in the Kenpachi fight, and heavily contradicted. You can't bring positions that would overhaul established verse mechanics to defend a crt.

You don't think it's right? It's explicitly what we see. This is a topic which we have already defended in downgrade CRTs before. Byakuya is objectively equal to Yammy.

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

We see with Urahara that his kido isn't drastically stronger than his normal attack potency, given the fight with Aizen. His benihime abilities are still relative to his kido to a significant extent.

How does his normal power>Kido power? He generally used Kido against Aizen anyway.

According to Ukitake, 4 months is not enough time to get stronger. There is less than 4 months between Ulquiorra vs Urahara and Aizen vs Urahara. Urahara is not shown to have trained to get stronger during that time.

So what do you think about this?

 

[Guacamolefletcher]

So what do you think about this?

This statement is a knowledge claim based on his experience, and it is clearly contradicted by feats.

Pre Training Orihime is below a 4th seath shinigami.

Post-Training Orihime can react to the f*cking 4th espada.

Pre-Training Byakuya Kuchiki is relative to Soul Society Arc Shikai Ichigo.

Post-Training Byakuya Kuchiki is stronger than any espada but Yammy.

Pre-training Yoruichi would've died to a cero from base Yammy, notably weaker than any espada.

Post-training Yoruichi is equal to someone stronger than any espada, and can fight Askin Nakk Le Varr, who has immeasurable power.

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

This statement is a knowledge claim based on his experience, and it is clearly contradicted by feats.

Pre Training Orihime is below a 4th seath shinigami.

Post-Training Orihime can react to the f*cking 4th espada.

Pre-Training Byakuya Kuchiki is relative to Soul Society Arc Shikai Ichigo.

Post-Training Byakuya Kuchiki is stronger than any espada but Yammy.

Pre-training Yoruichi would've died to a cero from base Yammy, notably weaker than any espada.

Post-training Yoruichi is equal to someone stronger than any espada, and can fight Askin Nakk Le Varr, who has immeasurable power.

I will talk about these tomorrow.

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

I'm on the oppositions side here.

 

[MillenniumSunny]

I think this criticism is founded upon a misunderstanding of how arc did the justifications. Arc doesn’t have “being stronger than the espada” as reasoning for Aizen being 4-A (example), it’s to strengthen certain inverse scaling decisions. Now, here’s the thing, Aizen’s off guard durability matters.

We see time and time again throughout the series that characters have a specific durability while off guard. They guard specific areas when they know they’re going to take damage, but passive reiatsu guards them to a certain extent.

Now, who does Aizen’s off guard durability scale to? We know Shinji can knick it and a post-resurrection Bankai + Striped Masked Ichigo’s Getsuga does damage him while off guard, even if it doesn’t fully do him in.

Though this doesn’t justify full Base Aizen level scaling for Urahara, it is crucial to note that this is scaling for his AP with a simple, chant-less mid-tier kido being able to pierce something over 2x as strong as resurrección Yammy’s cero (because Striped Mask Ichigo damaged Yammy at HALF POWER, stated by Unohana)

This makes Kisuke already be about as strong as high-tier sternritter characters (elite-tier Schutstaffel sternritters at that

I wouldn't equate these at all. When Shinji cuts him, Aizen is at least aware that he's being attacked, just not from where. He would have his guard up in the middle of a fight. We know that during battle, characters hone their spiritual pressure to it's limit, and they can't be called vulnerable from any or open from any direction, based on True Shikai Ichigo's reiatsu against Yhwach and other characters having their reiatsu spike when they enter a fight. Aizen would have had his reiatsu prepared. It's not the same as reiatsu subconsciously leaking from someone. That was only the case for Kenpachi because he let Ichigo have a free hit. As for Ichigo's case, Aizen did see him and could slightly react before the attack. While he does admit it was a vulnerable moment, I still wouldn't equate that to subconscious leaking Reiatsu, especially considering this Aizen JUST got hit with Itto Kaso a moment ago.

Compare that to Kisuke, he attacks Aizen when he's mid-transformation, believes he's already won, and his opponents are arguing off to the side.

We’ve never seen explosion damage appear as soot in this way, and it would not make sense. Soot is residue from the chemical reactants and products from combustion. Here, we’re dealing with spiritual pressure, so there shouldn’t be any products like these.

Ash from the explosion, then. Either way, you said it didn't damage Aizen himself at all, and I still stand by the shell being way weaker than Aizen is, so this shouldn't get him anywhere.

Aizen wouldn’t tell f*cking lieutenants that their powers were equal prior to the transformation. In fact, he denigrates all of the espada.

Why would he take Urahara’s power as unequal to himself based on this statement if it’s only a reference to meager shinigami powers? Especially considering your later downplay scaling.

This argument presupposes that he’s talking about strength. Again, it could just as easily be him saying Soul Reaper powers are no longer equal to him. You’re using the idea that the statement refers to strength to prove that the statement refers to strength.

I’m going to try and limit my commentary here, but this is a dishonest argument, which is inconsistent within itself.

Urahara explicitly trains and prepares for this battle, and Yammy is known to be significantly weaker than Luppi. The only logical conclusion here is that Urahara gets stronger through training.

Unless your name is Ichigo Kurosaki, a month of training isn’t doing anything really. Kisuke was already way stronger than Yammy from the start. My argument is that the gap isn’t nearly as big as the gap between Aizen and Yammy, seeing how he obliterated Harribel. There are other perfectly logical reasons for Kisuke’s perceived “growth”, which I’ve given already.

This point complete destroys your own argument. NON-Lieutenant level ICHIGO can harm him.

Your interpretation that zangetsu made this random unnamed Getsuga stronger than any ichigo made through the entire soul society arc for no reason contradicts the entire narrative of ichigo getting stronger over time.

He gets increases up to the final Getsuga tensho, and him losing his powers.

So…former Captain Urahara was gonna get his arm taken off by a normal Getsuga? Right…the explanation with Zangetsu is just me trying to explain this scene, and frankly, it’s the only way it makes any sense.

This is completely dishonest because Urahara wasn’t even born when the captains that actually applies to (Shunsui, Ukitake, Unohana, Yamamoto)

He is Yoruichi’s age, and she wasn’t alive during SAFWY.

Shunsui refers to those that have been Captains for over a hundred years as having relatively long services. Urahara has been a Captain since before Turn Back the Pendulum, a hundred years ago.

Furthermore, if we steel man this position, we have to think Urahara is Yammy level in CFYOW, where Tokinada concedes Urahara can one-shot him.

Sure, as I’ve said, Kisuke can reach base Aizen level with his strongest attacks. Also, I’d like to see this scan.

CFYOW Urahara fights and clashes with Aura Michibane, whose power is compared to base Aizen’s kido power (making this Urahara scaling more consistent).

I’d like a scan for this too. And again, Urahara does this using a Hado #99. I’m perfectly fine with his strongest attacks scaling to base Aizen.

Same Urahara that’s so strong, Askin thinks he’s a monster, and that he needs to use special abilities on him because of his monster reiatsu, and is stronger than Yoruichi.

Pretty sure Askin never mentions Urahara’s Reiatsu as a problem. He could poison True Shikai Ichigo and have him on the floor without issues. He even says he has no idea how Yoruichi isn’t dead yet when he poisons her. It doesn’t seem to be a matter of Reiatsu, or Ichigo would have obliterated him instantly.

There is nothing random about Urahara getting stronger through a training arc.

Yes, the scaling of the series is somewhat grounded, but most people can train and get stronger. This final point completely discredits the thread, because its implications would break scaling for the entire verse, and consistently established ideas within the series.

…by training for one month, he goes from below base Ulquiorra to Aizen level. Ichigo didn’t even have that level of progress. And Ichigo had Hollowfication. You think Urahara’s growth rate is just that much higher than Ichigo’s? Urahara even directly says that Ichigo’s gifts are greater than his, in reference to Yoruichi wondering if he could attain Bankai in time, so this couldn’t be true.

The literal only possible explanations are the ones I provided.

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

This statement is a knowledge claim based on his experience, and it is clearly contradicted by feats.

Pre Training Orihime is below a 4th seath shinigami.

Post-Training Orihime can react to the f*cking 4th espada.

Pre-Training Byakuya Kuchiki is relative to Soul Society Arc Shikai Ichigo.

Post-Training Byakuya Kuchiki is stronger than any espada but Yammy.

Pre-training Yoruichi would've died to a cero from base Yammy, notably weaker than any espada.

Post-training Yoruichi is equal to someone stronger than any espada, and can fight Askin Nakk Le Varr, who has immeasurable power.

Let's get started.

Could you post the panel where Orihime reacts to the 4th Espada? This is probably an outlier. If not, Orihime is a Fullbring. Ukitake's statement might not apply to Fullbrings.

I've always been against Byakuya's scale to Yammy. Let me explain the reasons in detail. In the panel where Byakuya first hits Yammy, he was off guard and talking to Ichigo. In the panel where he hits Yammy twice, he and Zaraki hit him in the face. Even if they win in the off-screen fight, we don't know how the fight will unfold. It's possible that Zaraki increased his power level and defeated him.

Even Byakuya's forms, which are stronger than his Arrancar saga form, have anti-feats that indicate he's below Yammy's level. For example, he struggles against Tsukishima. We can say that Tsukishima is stronger than Tsukishima in the Fullbring arc. CFYOW Base Grimmjow was able to fight Tsukishima and Base Ginjo simultaneously. Base Grimmjow>Final form Yammy can't be because Grimmjow is still stated to be weaker than Baraggan. When Grimmjow said, "I'm stronger than Nnoitra," Zaraki said he didn't see any difference. CFYOW Base Grimmjow~~Even if it were to be Resurrection Nnoitra, it's still not even close to Yammy. Now, you might be saying Tsukishima has Reactive Evolution hax. Okay, he might have evolved to Byakuya's level, but according to his profile, he would have had to have slaughtered him once before to do so. So, the Byakuya form 17 months after fighting Yammy is weaker than Baraggan and can only be slaughtered by someone as strong as Res Nnoitra at most.

TYBW Byakuya felt compelled to back down against Candice. He felt compelled to use Bankai against Robert. Robert is clearly weaker than Volstandig Meninas and Base Liltotto. Even if Base Liltotto gets nerfed in CFYOW, I don't think he'll be able to compete with CFYOW Base Grimmjow in his unnerved form. Even if he could surpass Base Grimmjow, there's still the issue of Ressurection, which increases his Bankai level. In TYBW, Grimmjow even has the AP feat over Post Aushwalen Askin. Liltotto considers even Pre Aushwalen Elite Sternrriter to be an immeasurable/invincible force.

As for Yoruichi, she wasn't using Shunko when fighting Base Yammy. She used the Anti-Hiero Armor Urahara gave her during the fight with Aizen. Askin isn't a very strong character anyway, physically. But if you want to believe that, there's at least a 2-year time difference between Base Yammy vs Yoruichi and Askin vs Yoruichi. Ukitake's promise was for 4 months.

 

[Hxskyy2005]

i agree with this

 

[Jo-Smooth]

Disagree. Damaging off guard Aizen still implies relativity as with Ichigo vs Zaraki, you have to be strong enough to get passed someone’s subconscious spiritual energy barrier, and then as noted, Urahara made Aizen worry about taking damage from his Kido. The fact that Urahara resorted to using his Shikai after his Kido didn’t work implies his Shikai is stronger on average.

2nd Fusion Aizen’s shell should be more durable than Base Aizen’s durability either way, so him damaging that with his Shikai even if only slightly doesn’t mean he shouldn’t scale

Aizen calling Urahara his equal in power before the 2nd Fusion also lines up with Isshin pushing Shinigami Aizen to his limit and forcing the Hogyoku to evolve him, and Yoruichi’s showings. It’s clear all 3 are supposed to be on the same level

As for Urahara getting stronger within less than 4 months, 3 points

1.) It was mentioned earlier in the story that Yoruichi was rusty, and Soi Fon mentioned that a century of no training or combat should’ve affected her negatively. The same thing should apply to Urahara

2.) The quote you mentioned from Kubo about Captains not getting much stronger due to nearly peaking only applies to senior captains. Urahara isn’t a senior captain, he became a Captain a little over a century ago and then was exiled and no longer in the field or training for a century after that, like Yoruichi

And then we have examples of the Visoreds who include captains who had the rank for much longer than Urahara going from struggling handling a mutated Hollow Ichigo to fighting Espada 3-1 and doing better against them than Bankai Masked Ichigo (who’s stronger than the mutated hollow forms) did against R1 Ulq.

3.) Urahara is the same guy who achieved Bankai in 3 days, it’s not crazy for someone like him to be able to get massively stronger in a short time compared to others. Even if you don’t buy that, it’s less of Urahara getting massive amps and more of him returning back to where he was at

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

2nd Fusion Aizen’s shell should be more durable than Base Aizen’s durability either way, so him damaging that with his Shikai even if only slightly doesn’t mean he shouldn’t scale

Urahara uses kido against Aura when his Shikai fails. Just because a character stops using something that doesn't work against an opponent and uses something else doesn't make it relative to the other. Against someone whose weapon bullets don't work, you're forced to use another weapon or your fists. Similar logic applies.

Yoruichi can also damage the shell, but Yoruichi loses to Askin, and Grimmjow can even damage Askin's Hashein form. While stronger than TYBW Grimmjow, CFYOW Grimmjow is weaker than Baraggan, and Baraggan is weaker than Aizen without the Hogyoku.

1.) It was mentioned earlier in the story that Yoruichi was rusty, and Soi Fon mentioned that a century of no training or combat should’ve affected her negatively. The same thing should apply to Urahara

Yoruichi was a cat for 100 years. It's normal for her to rust. The character goes through a bulking phase to get stronger. We don't see Urahara bulking or training. Urahara didn't turn into an animal, nor did he bulk up. Furthermore, when Isshin's powers come back, Isshin has the same Shinigami powers as he did 20 years ago. At the same level as the Isshin who fought against White.

And then we have examples of the Visoreds who include captains who had the rank for much longer than Urahara going from struggling handling a mutated Hollow Ichigo to fighting Espada 3-1 and doing better against them than Bankai Masked Ichigo (who’s stronger than the mutated hollow forms) did against R1 Ulq.

There's a problem with ranking the Espada by number, but even if you rank them by number, it still shows that Vaizard Training Hollow Ichigo is at least Halibel level. That's if you scale Lisa to Halibel, and Shinji>Halibel.

3.) Urahara is the same guy who achieved Bankai in 3 days, it’s not crazy for someone like him to be able to get massively stronger in a short time compared to others. Even if you don’t buy that, it’s less of Urahara getting massive amps and more of him returning back to where he was at

Urahara achieves Bankai in three days, but he can only do so with a special dimension he discovered with his own technologia. Yoruichi says Ichigo has an incredible growth rate for a shinigami, and compares him to Urahara, stating that Ichigo is better.

 

[Jo-Smooth]

Urahara uses kido against Aura when his Shikai fails. Just because a character stops using something that doesn't work against an opponent and uses something else doesn't make it relative to the other. Against someone whose weapon bullets don't work, you're forced to use another weapon or your fists. Similar logic applies.

There’s a huge difference. Aura had intangibility and other unconventional defenses. With Aizen, it was a straight up AP vs Durability thing, no hax or special defenses involved

Yoruichi can also damage the shell, but Yoruichi loses to Askin, and Grimmjow can even damage Askin's Hashein form. While stronger than TYBW Grimmjow, CFYOW Grimmjow is weaker than Baraggan, and Baraggan is weaker than Aizen without the Hogyoku.

I have Askin as stronger than Shinigami Aizen anyways. And Grimmjow damaged an off guard Askin. We can’t even use the same ‘passive spiritual energy’ logic with Grimmjow and Askin as it was specifically noted that Res Arrancar have full on Hollow reiatsu which is direct poison to Quincy

Yoruichi was a cat for 100 years. It's normal for her to rust. The character goes through a bulking phase to get stronger. We don't see Urahara bulking or training. Urahara didn't turn into an animal, nor did he bulk up. Furthermore, when Isshin's powers come back, Isshin has the same Shinigami powers as he did 20 years ago. At the same level as the Isshin who fought against White.

Isshin had only lost his power for about 20 years or so compared to Urahara and Yoruichi who haven’t been active for over a century. And we know Urahara got weaker as he stated an Ichigo who was weaker than 3rd/4th seat level (as he only reached that level after his training concluded) broke his Shikai’s shield and would’ve cut off his arm with a nerfed version of Getsuga. That’s clearly far below Captain level. And then Urahara a few months later is strong enough to fight Yammy and cut of Res Luppi’s tentacle arms. And then some time later he’s strong enough to fight Aizen.

There's a problem with ranking the Espada by number, but even if you rank them by number, it still shows that Vaizard Training Hollow Ichigo is at least Halibel level. That's if you scale Lisa to Halibel, and Shinji>Halibel.

There’s no problem with ranking Espada numbers, they’re ranked in order of spiritual energy, lethality, and combat ability. And Visored training Ichigo isn’t Halibel level, what? A stronger version of this Ichigo with limited control of his Mask couldn’t put down a nerfed, one armed base Grimmjow while spamming his strongest technique, Hollow Black Getsugas, and an even stronger Bankai Masked Ichigo was relative to Res Grimmjow until he got a resolve/mental amp near the end of it. He was nowhere near Halibel.

The Visoreds simply got stronger and eclipsed Ichigo to match the top Espada excluding Yammy while an even stronger Ichigo than the one in the Grimmjow trilogy fight was fodder to R1 Ulq who’s weaker than 3-1

Urahara achieves Bankai in three days, but he can only do so with a special dimension he discovered with his own technologia. Yoruichi says Ichigo has an incredible growth rate for a shinigami, and compares him to Urahara, stating that Ichigo is better.

Ichigo has more talent and a faster growth rate yes, but up until after his fight with Ulq, Ichigo never reached the level of power Urahara’s peak was at. Ichigo only reached near that Base Aizen level with his Striped Hollow Mask when he was fully resolved and not wavering/fearing his hollow power. Urahara was on that level at one point and reached it again in FKT

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

There’s a huge difference. Aura had intangibility and other unconventional defenses. With Aizen, it was a straight up AP vs Durability thing, no hax or special defenses involved

My main point here is that the character uses whatever is useful at the time. Using a shikai against an opponent who uses Kido doesn't make him a shikai~~Kido. Because his shikai isn't sufficient against Askin, he doesn't switch to Bankai. He uses Bankai to purify himself of the poison and restore his eyesight.

I have Askin as stronger than Shinigami Aizen anyways. And Grimmjow damaged an off guard Askin. We can’t even use the same ‘passive spiritual energy’ logic with Grimmjow and Askin as it was specifically noted that Res Arrancar have full on Hollow reiatsu which is direct poison to Quincy

Askin is definitely not at the level of Pre-Hogyoku Aizen. Even Grimmjow could react to Askin's attacks in post-Aushwalen. Even a partial ressurection Grimmjow can interrupt Post-Aushwalen Askin's Giftballs.

Pre-Hogyoku Aizen>Baraggan>CFYOW Grimmjow>Ichigo Fight Grimmjow~~>TYBW Grimmjow.

It has been stated that Aizen can defeat Unohana.

Pre-Hogyoku Aizen>Unohana<~~Muken Training Zaraki>Gremmy fight Eye Patch Shikai Zaraki>Gremmy=4-A>>>>>>>>>Askin

The scene where Grimmjow stabs Askin's heart isn't off-guard. Why would Askin lower his guard against Urahara? He already knew Urahara was one of the five battle threats. He was being crushed by Urahara's Bankai state. He was forced into close combat. Grimmjow's ability to hit Askin is merely an AP feat for Grimmjow. I don't interpret this as speed.

Also, just because Hollows are poisonous, you can't say that every Hollow-powered person surpassed a Quincy's durability because they were Hollow. In CFYOW, Liltotto ate Menoly and Lolly's swords, which contained hollow reiatsu, and only noted that it tasted like poison. The Hollow poison didn't negatively affect her. Even a low-born sternritter like Liltotto is only slightly affected by hollow reiatsu, so it's absurd to point out that the sole reason an elite quincy like Askin was eaten was because of his hollow reiatsu. By that logic, we shouldn't call Ayon's victory over Quilge a hit with hollow reiatsu and scale it based on Quilge's durability.

And we know Urahara got weaker as he stated an Ichigo who was weaker than 3rd/4th seat level (as he only reached that level after his training concluded) broke his Shikai’s shield and would’ve cut off his arm with a nerfed version of Getsuga. That’s clearly far below Captain level. And then Urahara a few months later is strong enough to fight Yammy and cut of Res Luppi’s tentacle arms. And then some time later he’s strong enough to fight Aizen.

Ichigo isn't stronger than he was in previous battles in every scene. Just because his Getsuga Tenshou against Urahara is his first doesn't mean he'll be the weakest. Consider his first battle with Ulquiorra and Yammy. When discussing Ichigo's strength, Ulquiorra says his strength surpasses even mine. He's at Base Ulquiorra's level for a moment, but later in the scene, he's distracted by the hollow inside him, and because his focus is lost, he takes a beating from the One-Armed Base Yammy. When assessing Ichigo's strength, whether he's mentally nerfed, focused, restrained, injured, how much power Old Man Zangetsu has given him, etc., are all important criteria for evaluating his strength. Urahara is commenting on his overall strength level. There's no reason for his first Getsuga Tenshou to be included in this.

Urahara hadn't even focused on the fight anyway, because it was just training. In the Bleach series, any scene where you're not focused on the fight lowers your durability. Being surprised also lowers your durability. Let me give you an example from the Nnoitra and Zaraki fight. Base Nnoitra can overcome Surprised Zaraki's durability with a straight shot. Zaraki's surprise was caused by the gap where Nnoitra's right eye was, so he couldn't cut him. Before the fight, Base Nnoitra used Cero, but he couldn't even scratch Zaraki. Cero > Normal attack. You already know why.

spiritual energy, lethality, and combat ability

Is Reiatsu=Power in this wiki? This is very wrong. If it is, I'll have to make a CRT about it. There are at least 6 situations in the series that contradict this. Killing ability isn't just about AP. The reason Halibel is the number 3 Espada is because she represents sacrifice. If Grimmjow represented sacrifice and not destruction, he would be the number 3 Espada, not Halibel. Dordoni, the former Espada who represents sacrifice, is stronger than Zommari, but why isn't he number 7? Because he doesn't represent the symbol of the number 7. You either get the number you represent, or you will always be a Privarion Espada or a Fraction Espada. I have solid evidence about these Espada numbers, and I plan to talk about it in a future CRT. I'm trying to stay as focused on Urahara as possible right now.

 

[Guacamolefletcher]

…by training for one month, he goes from below base Ulquiorra to Aizen level. Ichigo didn’t even have that level of progress. And Ichigo had Hollowfication. You think Urahara’s growth rate is just that much higher than Ichigo’s? Urahara even directly says that Ichigo’s gifts are greater than his, in reference to Yoruichi wondering if he could attain Bankai in time, so this couldn’t be true.

The literal only possible explanations are the ones I provided.

Mayuri, who is a lesser genius than Urahara, can amp someone's reiatsu to an insane extent in CFYOW. Regardless, he had better progress since he got to a level where he's stronger than Hollowified Ichigo, and he isn't being limited by OMZ

Orihime trained with f*cking Rukia, who is below espada level, and got to the level of the 4th espada. Urahara can get stronger. Ichigo's insane amps being better than anyone else's is only a fan theory, he is never explicitly said to get stronger than anyone else does in the same time frame every time. Stop arguing this.

Pretty sure Askin never mentions Urahara’s Reiatsu as a problem. He could poison True Shikai Ichigo and have him on the floor without issues. He even says he has no idea how Yoruichi isn’t dead yet when he poisons her. It doesn’t seem to be a matter of Reiatsu, or Ichigo would have obliterated him instantly.

He literally says Urahara is "ridiculously strong." You have to be ratting if you're saying it means something else. Just before, he praises his ability to still move as fast as him, even after being hit with his Vollstandig's poison effects...

You have to be ratting here.

I’d like a scan for this too. And again, Urahara does this using a Hado #99. I’m perfectly fine with his strongest attacks scaling to base Aizen.

OK but like, you realize the comparison is to Aizen's kido here. We mostly see Aizen use high level kido, so it would mean Urahara's strongest kido is slightly stronger than Aizen's high-level kido.

The comparison doesn't specify "low-level kido profficiency," you would have to concede it's his kido and hakuda power in general.

Also, this would literally also be a concession, because Urahara can still fight against her without using his highest-level kido, it's just her final and strongest attacks that he needs to counter with a hado 99. The fight isn't just this.

You literally have Urahara counter her ability using his regular zanpakuto, dodging, and reacting to it.

She is also objectively stated to be stronger than Tokinada, so you have to have this scaling chain:

Start of Arrancar Arc Urahara < Base Ulquiorra <<< Res. Yammy ~ Arrancar-Arc Bankai Byakuya < CFYOW base Byakuya ~ Tokinada < Aura ~ Urahara

Objectively, given uncontroversial, obvious statements and feats, Urahara gets an insane amp by the end of CFYOW where he is insanely stronger than he was before, at least superior to Tokinada by a vast amount.

Shunsui refers to those that have been Captains for over a hundred years as having relatively long services. Urahara has been a Captain since before Turn Back the Pendulum, a hundred years ago.

And he didn't train for like 100 years, making him weaker than f*cking lieutenant level Ichigo's no-name getsuga.

So…former Captain Urahara was gonna get his arm taken off by a normal Getsuga? Right…the explanation with Zangetsu is just me trying to explain this scene, and frankly, it’s the only way it makes any sense.

Former captain that probably didn't train for shit for 100 years? It's not the only way, and this is a false dilemma fallacy.

Unless your name is Ichigo Kurosaki, a month of training isn’t doing anything really. Kisuke was already way stronger than Yammy from the start. My argument is that the gap isn’t nearly as big as the gap between Aizen and Yammy, seeing how he obliterated Harribel. There are other perfectly logical reasons for Kisuke’s perceived “growth”, which I’ve given already.

This is literally just disbelief. Your argument here is basically "no way, that's too crazy!!!!" and it's not valid.

This argument presupposes that he’s talking about strength. Again, it could just as easily be him saying Soul Reaper powers are no longer equal to him. You’re using the idea that the statement refers to strength to prove that the statement refers to strength.

No, it's looking at the consistency with other statements.

He's roughly equal to Isshin too, and Aizen says distance only matters between two opponents of equal strength, but it's smart for Isshin to put distance between them. This is a blatant concession that he's equal to Isshin.

Ash from the explosion, then. Either way, you said it didn't damage Aizen himself at all, and I still stand by the shell being way weaker than Aizen is, so this shouldn't get him anywhere.

We are using the shell to scale him to Isshin's physicals, which also scale to Aizen through statements and feats

I wouldn't equate these at all. When Shinji cuts him, Aizen is at least aware that he's being attacked, just not from where. He would have his guard up in the middle of a fight. We know that during battle, characters hone their spiritual pressure to it's limit, and they can't be called vulnerable from any or open from any direction, based on True Shikai Ichigo's reiatsu against Yhwach and other characters having their reiatsu spike when they enter a fight. Aizen would have had his reiatsu prepared. It's not the same as reiatsu subconsciously leaking from someone. That was only the case for Kenpachi because he let Ichigo have a free hit. As for Ichigo's case, Aizen did see him and could slightly react before the attack. While he does admit it was a vulnerable moment, I still wouldn't equate that to subconscious leaking Reiatsu, especially considering this Aizen JUST got hit with Itto Kaso a moment ago.

Compare that to Kisuke, he attacks Aizen when he's mid-transformation, believes he's already won, and his opponents are arguing off to the side.

This doesn't prove Aizen is on-guard vs Ichigo more than he is passively there. It's still extremely relevant.


BTW I just got back home, and I realized your argument that the colored manga version is increasing the damage severely is completely insane. It barely mkaes the burning marks more visible. Clear dishonesty here.

​

 

[Guacamolefletcher]

Sum of evidence for Kisuke​

• He deals more damage to Aizen's shell using Kido than Isshin's physicals, and is generally portrayed as equal to Isshin
• Isshin is stated to be equal to Aizen... by Aizen
• He is stated to have "equal power" to Aizen, before Aizen got stronger (consistent with the Isshin statement)
• Aura is stated to have power equal to Aizen's kido and hakuda (so she is just straight-up Aizen level
• Kisuke can react to and combat Aura, surpassing her with his strongest kido
• An elite sternritter calls his power monstrous, considering him too strong to use his regular abilities on him.

Sum of evidence against Kisuke​

• He was weaker before he is stated to train
• Someone makes a knowledge claim that people can't get stronger, which is contradicted by objective scaling evidence and direct statements about people getting stronger. Even if we steelman Kisuke isn't that strong, he would still be insanely powerful by the end, and he would have an insane amp, being at least comparable to Yammy.
• Clear disbelief.

If we are looking at this objectively, the evidence for Kisuke is nearly insurmountable. You have to rely on weak disbelief to argue this position.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Mayuri, who is a lesser genius than Urahara, can amp someone's reiatsu to an insane extent in CFYOW. Regardless, he had better progress since he got to a level where he's stronger than Hollowified Ichigo, and he isn't being limited by OMZ

Orihime trained with f*cking Rukia, who is below espada level, and got to the level of the 4th espada. Urahara can get stronger. Ichigo's insane amps being better than anyone else's is only a fan theory, he is never explicitly said to get stronger than anyone else does in the same time frame every time. Stop arguing this.


He literally says Urahara is "ridiculously strong." You have to be ratting if you're saying it means something else. Just before, he praises his ability to still move as fast as him, even after being hit with his Vollstandig's poison effects...

You have to be ratting here.


OK but like, you realize the comparison is to Aizen's kido here. We mostly see Aizen use high level kido, so it would mean Urahara's strongest kido is slightly stronger than Aizen's high-level kido.

The comparison doesn't specify "low-level kido profficiency," you would have to concede it's his kido and hakuda power in general.

Also, this would literally also be a concession, because Urahara can still fight against her without using his highest-level kido, it's just her final and strongest attacks that he needs to counter with a hado 99. The fight isn't just this.

You literally have Urahara counter her ability using his regular zanpakuto, dodging, and reacting to it.

She is also objectively stated to be stronger than Tokinada, so you have to have this scaling chain:

Start of Arrancar Arc Urahara < Base Ulquiorra <<< Res. Yammy ~ Arrancar-Arc Bankai Byakuya < CFYOW base Byakuya ~ Tokinada < Aura ~ Urahara

Objectively, given uncontroversial, obvious statements and feats, Urahara gets an insane amp by the end of CFYOW where he is insanely stronger than he was before, at least superior to Tokinada by a vast amount.

And he didn't train for like 100 years, making him weaker than f*cking lieutenant level Ichigo's no-name getsuga.


Former captain that probably didn't train for shit for 100 years? It's not the only way, and this is a false dilemma fallacy.


This is literally just disbelief. Your argument here is basically "no way, that's too crazy!!!!" and it's not valid.


No, it's looking at the consistency with other statements.

He's roughly equal to Isshin too, and Aizen says distance only matters between two opponents of equal strength, but it's smart for Isshin to put distance between them. This is a blatant concession that he's equal to Isshin.


We are using the shell to scale him to Isshin's physicals, which also scale to Aizen through statements and feats



This doesn't prove Aizen is on-guard vs Ichigo more than he is passively there. It's still extremely relevant.


BTW I just got back home, and I realized your argument that the colored manga version is increasing the damage severely is completely insane. It barely mkaes the burning marks more visible. Clear dishonesty here.

​

I agree with you, but maybe start toning it down. Thanks.

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

Orihime trained with f*cking Rukia, who is below espada level, and got to the level of the 4th espada.

If the panel you used to measure Orihime's level 4 Espada is the one where she stops Base Ulquiorra's attack:

Orihime is a character who grows stronger when she wants to protect Ichigo. Even during the final battle with Yhwach, when entering the palace room where Yhwach is, she says things like, "I'm much closer than I was before." Normally, after losing against Base Gerard, Orihime can generate shields with the Mental Amp that can react and withstand Yhwach's attacks. Being able to react to Ulquiorra's attack once doesn't make her level 4 Espada. This has nothing to do with her training with Rukia. Ukitake already noted that four months of training with Rukia and Orihime was insufficient to strengthen her.

Start of Arrancar Arc Urahara < Base Ulquiorra <<< Res. Yammy ~ Arrancar-Arc Bankai Byakuya < CFYOW base Byakuya ~ Tokinada < Aura ~ Urahara

You probably didn't read what I wrote above. Byakuya is equal to Tokinada in terms of reiatsu alone. It's a huge mistake to interpret reiatsu as power.

Beyond the reiatsu aspect, Byakuya's feats against Yammy are also outliers. Final Form Yammy>Nnoitra~~CFYOW Base Grimmjow>CFYOW Tsukishima>Fullbring arc Tsukishima>Fullbring arc Byakuya>Arrancar arc Byakuya

And he didn't train for like 100 years, making him weaker than f*cking lieutenant level Ichigo's no-name getsuga.

I explained this above. It could be said that the character experiences a dura drop because they're surprised. There's no reason to be fully focused during training anyway.

Likewise, there is no reason why Ichigo's first Getsuga Tenshou should be weaker than the other Getsuga Tenshou.

He's roughly equal to Isshin too, and Aizen says distance only matters between two opponents of equal strength, but it's smart for Isshin to put distance between them. This is a blatant concession that he's equal to Isshin.

He also states that he was exhausted fighting Isshin. He is stronger fighting Yamamoto and Ichigo than he was fighting Isshin in any way.

 

[Specterxxxx]

Leaning towards disagree

 

[Guacamolefletcher]

I agree with you, but maybe start toning it down. Thanks.

My bad, I apologize to OP for my behavior.