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Statement or showing. Because Low 2-C is gotten in most cases from a 3-A space repeated an uncountable infinite number of times. So you'd need to effect it all or once to get a Tier 2 rating.
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TYBW Anime Cour 3 [Oshō Edition]
- Thread starter Arc7Kuroi
- Start date
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- bleach ichibē hyōsube
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Maybe it should be High-3A given there are things that are infinite in size like Garganta in Bleach.
Ghostimuscrime
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Aren’t those statements rejected for being hyperbolic? Seemingly Endless darkness or something I don’t recall well
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That one is for muken
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That was Muken. Garganta is stated to be an infinite expanse by the narrator in CFYOW. Garganta is also the space that engulfs all dimensions in Bleach, and it is completely black as well.
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Give OP time to respond to all of the points already made
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Our universe and every other dimensions reside in the Garganta.
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3-A and High 3-A both give a Low 2-C rating. It's just that technically a High 3-A space is from my understanding slightly better than a 3-A space.
ReaperAndBlues
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They said it couldn't be done, they said it was impossible, they said it would never happen, but now they all can eat those words.
Agreed
Agreed
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Neither ichibei, nor any of squad zero member was able to affect garganta significantly in fact didn’t even affect at all. It's reserved for god tiers.
Significantly affecting garganta > significantly affecting 3 space time continuums and by a lot.
Guacamolefletcher
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Tip for people popping in to say things like these:
You aren't offering new arguments Arc hasn't considered. He's already aware of the Infinite Garganta arguments, and he disagrees with them.
It was deliberately excluded.
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How would you quantify it? Truthfully, I’m a bit out of my depth when it comes to my expertise in tier 2, so if you have time spare no effort in explaining stuff to me
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Because one would be spatially infinite in 4 dimensions while the other spatially infinite in three.
It's why like, destroying a universal Low 2-C space is worse than destroying a infinitely sized Low 2-C space. Or why destroying a Low 1-C multiverse is better than a Low 1-C universe.
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My apologies, I think you misunderstood my question (I'm not saying anything about infinite physical sizes as Eva clarified for me).
I guess my quandary is this:
And I'll start with guiding questions that I asked myself. Do you agree (at least in this case), that time is a part of existence? Time is a puzzle piece that helps comprise all of existence, boiled down to two puzzle pieces, it would be space and time.
I believe the answer in this context is yes. Thus, the capacity to affect all of existence would definitionally include all of time. Just like if a sandwich is bread and meat, eating the entire sandwich entails you ate all the bread and all the meat. Or mathematically, time would be a vector subspace of a complete vector space.
So, that's why I'm inclined to say Ichibe's range with Ichimonji is 2-C. The hesitancy of the non-full rating comes from it being an inductively reasoned rationalization, rather than being an outright stated fact; I instead arrived at the broader conclusion from segmented, more specific observations.
What're your thoughts?
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I think you're taking range and confusing it with potency. 2-C range just means you can target something within 4D spaces
Being Low 2-C or 2-C AP wise means you effect the entire structure (or the majority of it) at once with an ability.
Ichibe having Low Multiversal or Universal+ range is fine, I just disagree with the logic that hes 2-C in hax AP. Stealing time from one area isn't the same as reversing all time.
It's why a character selectively stopping time in an area wouldn’t be Tier 2.
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Correct me if am wrong but is your argument saying that the arguments the OP has would only apply for a 3A/high 3A or Low 2C? And not 2C directly? I am only trying to see your premise here as I don't quite get it.
Also does he have to affect an uncountable points or would the points here mean all phenomena and events according the op's analogy? Site says atleast two. Logically there is evidence to support he can affect three worlds at once since the power of black spans across three separate space time continuums.
But maybe I am getting you wrong.
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Right I understand all of that. I never claimed Ichibe did affect all of time, but rather that he can. Does that make sense?
Like if he could affect the entire timeline at once, that would warrant 2-C scaling?
My question is about the kind of preponderance of evidence we need to propose that. So like, for example, "Soul Society" is a name Ichibe gave 1 spacetime continuum, and the keyword statement claims he presides over and can exert his influence and control over all that he's named. Which would include the timeline, since he named it. His dominion is over the entire thing. My question is, can 2-C be granted by that logic, or granted in a likely/possibly manner, that is to say with a decent degree of likelihood, or do you not believe there is sufficient evidence of affecting the entire timeline vs it in piecemeal?
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I agree with the OP. Ichibe's power has shown to affect separate space time continuums like WotL and SS and even other dimensions within the garganta and has shown to manipulate time itself in a broad scope in SS. Plus the fact we know that ichibe according to the mid card in EP 27 has dominion over everything he named this should give him dominion and control atleast across three space time continuums and even other dimensions within the garganta. I am leaning to the OP's arguments until someone else can refute that logically
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No, the Tier 3-A stuff was just explaining how the rating works for Bleach. It's just an uncountable infinite number of 3-A snap shots. The feat is affecting time either way and I dont think it's going to be Universal range wise.
No, because you dont have enough evidence to say he can effect all time at once rather than effect time at certain points. To use an analogy just because I can lift a 15 pound dumbell doesnt mean I can lift the observable universe like Atlas. The scale is completely different.
Yes. To be Tier 2 you have to fully effect a universal or multiversal structure. Just touching a part of it isn't enough.
I believe the logic your going for is ultimately a NLF. For Tier 2 and higher rating you need more direct statements or feats for affecting those entire structures.
You've proven 2-C range, but the evidence given doesnt imply 2-C AP. For the same reason a Phane from D&D has 2-A range but doesnt have Tier 2 AP.
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Understood, I'm fine conceding to your expertise in the manner for the time being, as I don't believe my grasp on the tier is solid enough to provide a proper judgment in good faith. Are written standards, or Q&A threads around that you can point me to, so I can better familiarize myself with tier 2 AP?
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For just AP it would be the following:
Characters or objects whose power is uncountably infinitely greater than the prior tiers. That is to say, they can significantly affect, create and/or destroy higher-dimensional structures that exceed lesser objects by an uncountably infinite margin. An example of this is 4-dimensional spacetime continuums of universal size, but this can be generalized to any 4-dimensional structure of a similar scope.
Tier Low 2-C
vsbattles.fandom.com
"Significantly affect" is here used as an umbrella term for feats that don't involve direct creation or destruction but are comparable to them in power, such as warping and distorting the entirety of the structure in question, sustaining its existence with energy, merging the structure with another one, etc.
Tiering System
The following is a comprehensive overview of the hierarchical system the VS Battles Wiki utilizes to properly categorize and index fictional characters, entities, and objects based on the scale of their feats and the varying scopes that they can affect or create/destroy. Though Destructive...
Q: How do temporal dimensions impact tiering?
A: The relationship between the spatial dimensions of a universe and the additional temporal dimension(s) may be visualized as something akin to the frames of a movie placed side-by-side. Basically, the time-like direction may be thought of as a line comprised of uncountably infinitely many points, each of which is a static "snapshot" of the whole universe at any given moment, with the set of all such events comprising the totality of spacetime.
This structure can then be generalized to any number of dimensions, which is why destroying a spacetime continuum is a greater feat than destroying only the contents of the physical universe (Low 2-C, rather than 3-A or High 3-A).
Tiering System FAQ
A: Whether higher-dimensional entities qualify for such high tiers or not depends on several different factors, which may take root both in and out-of-verse. To explain this situation, we must first clarify what exactly being higher-dimensional entails. In a way, yes, though not how most would...
But for Tier 2 AP, you need to show Ichibei affecting the entire structure per our standards rather than a section of it.Q: When is the destruction or creation of a universe or timeline ranked as Low 2-C (Universe level+)?
A: As the Tiering System specifies, the affected area either has to be a large four dimensional space; most commonly, a spacetime continuum of universal size.
The latter means that all of the three-dimensional space of the universe has to be destroyed or created, at each moment in time. I.e. the entire timeline has to be destroyed.
Note that only direct destruction or creation qualifies. Just destroying the universe at the beginning of time and the rest vanishing due to the resulting causality paradox does not meet the requirements and would only be ranked as 3-A (Universe level).
For Tiering in regard to creating the Big Bang see here. Note that for creation feats additional considerations should be taken into account, as explained here.
Tiering System FAQ
A: Whether higher-dimensional entities qualify for such high tiers or not depends on several different factors, which may take root both in and out-of-verse. To explain this situation, we must first clarify what exactly being higher-dimensional entails. In a way, yes, though not how most would...
But his range is 100% correct in my mind. He's be able to hit anything any-when regarding black within the Bleachverse, I just don't think he has the scale (as currently presented) to get 2-C for his powers. If he stole 100 days from all three worlds for example, then the implication would be 2-C rather than localized space.
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It wasn't 100 days, it was 100 nights. And I believe he acquired those nights only in the Soul Society, not in other worlds.
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Just to be clear.
If someone destroys a universe which itself is a space time continum and the whole space time is gone, would that qualify for low 2C or you need extensive evidence about destruction of past and future as well?
As for ichibei he mentioned he stole nights from future century "future, century" are likely interpreted as a portion of timeline rather than influencing time of a localized area.
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If you can't prove that time was destroyed as well, then the feat is 3-A. If you prove time was destroyed (usually with a blank or white void visually), then it would be Tier 2. By the same notion if you warped time for the universe all at once it would be Tier 2, same with merging two universes together.
The terminology for the time of day he stole doesnt change the point of the comparison.
Yeah.... which was the point. I was presenting a scenario where the showing would be easier to argue as Tier 2, because it would be going through all three universes.
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But according to the MID card, ichibe has dominion over anything he has named and the influence of black spans across three space time continuums if not more and we know he is capable of affecting time in one of these universes due to the range of his powers and the statement that says he has dominion over the three worlds he named shouldn't this atleast justify a likely rating at least? I understand there is not sufficient evidence to give a blatant rating but the idea suggested from the nature, range of his powers and the mid card in 27 should give a likely or possibly rating at least
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I think you replied before I was done with editing.
I was saying, simply space time gone or getting significantly affected qualifies for 2C here. While in most cases having evidence of them being separated soace time continum seems enough.
For ichibei's case he stole nights from future century. While these words itself and the context also suggest it involves the timeline of soul society itself rather than a localized area like time stopping kido spells in bleach.
I think we shouldn't ignore the fact that he named and governs over phenomenon which is quite strong word and the very description of his fundamental ability. Has complete govern over everything black in bleach which would include black things such as nights from other worlds as well. Him not directly it using under same technique doesn’t really matter.
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Wdym by "better". Like larger?
Cus High 3-A is completely infinite in spatial directions, while 3-A is any finite size, even if absolutely unfathomable in distance/volume, etc.
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No, which is why I made the barbell comparison. The gap between Tier 2 and the lower tiers is an uncountable infinite. No amount of statistical power boosts would bridge this gap, so you need a feat or statement to get there. Ichibei's best showing is taking darkness from a localized area for 100 days, which is infinitely worse than affecting an entire space-time.
A character can have conceptual control over something without being Tier 2 or higher. Giving some a name and being able to control aspects of it doesnt give him the scope needed for a infinite rating.
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Specter, I believe what Qaws is getting at is, they don’t believe Ichibe’s feats provide enough support to accept the interpretation I originally provided for the keyword statement. Not that that statement can’t mean what I said it could mean, but that it doesn’t have the supportive evidence to accept it as such with strong likelihood.
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Yea, I'm leaning to 2-C range now.
Merely affecting a part of such overall structure isn't enough for 2-C AP, there must be evidence that he can significantly
affect the temporality that governs the overall totality of these worlds as well, or the whole space-time continuum of such, a "continuum" inherently already includes the past, present, future across the entire universe in question.
Merely affecting a part of such overall structure isn't enough for 2-C AP, there must be evidence that he can significantly
affect the temporality that governs the overall totality of these worlds as well, or the whole space-time continuum of such, a "continuum" inherently already includes the past, present, future across the entire universe in question.
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I believe a better comparison would be, having the power to lift the weight of anything in the universe and you have shown the ability of lifting the weight of a solar system. Regardless of the fact that you haven't lifted the heaviest things in the universe yet but there should be enough evidence to support you can from the statement being made that you could lift anything which is the primary evidence and the supporting evidence feat of lifting the weight of a solar system this should be enough to dispute you likely can lift higher things within the confines of the weight of things inside the universe hence validating the official statement. I understand this analogy might be confusing but it's the best I could come up with for now.
Can't a statement and supporting feat although inferior to the statement but can use to drive the argument further justify or must it be sorely feats.
I understand what he is getting at, that he needs a full 2c feat and the statement isn't enough but if you are agree with this then I see no need to drag this any further. I didn't know the rating was this strict.
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No need for this to be addressed, I have conceded the argument.
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I think you are missing my point. Since you are explaining that way let me mention this context:
Affecting finite number of point across infinite distance would still be low 2C.
Another interpretation is affecting finite points of an entire timeline would still be infinitely above any 3D scope.
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Right, so considering the evidence we have now, what tier would that fall under?
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Shouldn't you not remove it since Lordtracer agreed with tier 2 AP?That was very helpful, thank you Qaws
I’ve knocked the tier 2 AP from the proposals, kept the range tho. That is to say this thread got way simpler lol
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Kinda unquant. Or at least for the moment I’m sticking with him scaling to the 4-A value. Maybe that’ll change if and when I think more deeply about it
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