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JSHK simple downgrade

SouMeaningless

SouMeaningless

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I'll keep this short(maybe), I've seen a post indicating that Shijima's fictional world has a universe rating and deserves L2C Then the problem is, is it really a universe, or just a pocket dimension? I will discuss it here. As we can see here, Shijima is the one responsible for creating this fictional world, but this cannot be considered a universe, because this is only a "fake world" on her drawing paper, or in this sense it is just another, lower dimension created by Shijima. Unlike the universe in general, the Shijima world is just a pocket dimension with a large size
 
I don't really know anything about the verse, obviously. That said, it being a painting is not necessarily evidence in favor of it not being Low 2-C, that may just be the mechanics of the ability. I can try to look through the older thread at some point when I have time, maybe the context provided there will allow me to weigh in on this better.
 
Mr. Bambu said:
I don't really know anything about the verse, obviously. That said, it being a painting is not necessarily evidence in favor of it not being Low 2-C, that may just be the mechanics of the ability. I can try to look through the older thread at some point when I have time, maybe the context provided there will allow me to weigh in on this better.
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thank you very much, your help will be needed here, I want to end this L2C nonsense soon...
 
A pocket dimension being viewed as a painting by it's creator doesn't downgrade it automatically. Especially if real people were brought into that painting.
 
I don't recall contributing to that original thread, but I did, and I can understand my own positions better than those of others, hah.

Looking through it again, I would agree with Past-Me, that this is a very, very light instance of Low 2-C. I think the evidence sucks pretty bad at establishing a space-time continuum (indeed, I take the interpretation that it explicitly didn't create time, so time doesn't pass within these realms), nor infinite space; it is, after all, a drawing. A drawing can depict stars, but it cannot depict infinity. Nothing in the thread provides strong justification to Low 2-C.

All of that said. It was accepted at the time, and I reckon those "this is fines" would remain the same. Because this is a formal downgrade, and enough time has passed to have a formal downgrade, I will say that I agree that the thread before is wrong, and a downgrade is correct. That said, what specific proposal do you have? What tier were they before?
 
I've decided to step in to clarify.

Mr. Bambu said:
I think the evidence sucks pretty bad at establishing a space-time continuum (indeed, I take the interpretation that it explicitly didn't create time, so time doesn't pass within these realms)
Click to expand...

The claim that time doesn't pass within the world is false. Time does, in fact, pass in Shijima's worlds. Shijima even mentions that if Nene and Kou stay too long in her world, they'll forget their memories of the real world. Mitsuba straight up says he hoped Kou would waste time so he would forget.

As for my main arguments as to why they're universes, I've already explained in my original CRT. Both arguments are, according to the first section of the Universe page, completely valid qualifications.

In Shijima's world, Nene can live past her predetermined lifespan (which I've explained that it's in relation to fate, therefore time in the original CRT) and even grow up (Something that would be impossible to achieve in the real world, as she's fated to die before she reaches the age of 16), implying it works on a different space-time continuum. Hanako supports this by straight up stating that Shijima's world is completely cut off from reality.

The stars in the sky mirror the stars in real life, and the world is consistently mirrored and compared to "The Real World".

Mr. Bambu said:
nor infinite space; it is, after all, a drawing. A drawing can depict stars, but it cannot depict infinity.
Click to expand...
This isn't a must-have proof.

According to the Universe page, the world really only needs to have significant size for supportive evidence, which I have proven. Nene looks at the Red Giant Antares star from the Scorpio constellation through Amane's Telescope.

All of the evidence is gathered with the Universe page in mind, and everything I've put out respected its guidelines.

I should add that OP's argument for the downgrade doesn't actually address any reasonings that got my CRT accepted in the first place.
 
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Yeolban said:
I've decided to step in to clarify.



The claim that time doesn't pass within the world is false. Time does, in fact, pass in Shijima's worlds. Shijima even mentions that if Nene and Kou stay too long in her world, they'll forget their memories of the real world. Mitsuba straight up says he hoped Kou would waste time so he would forget.

As for my main arguments as to why they're universes, I've already explained in my original CRT. Both arguments are, according to the first section of the Universe page, completely valid qualifications.

In Shijima's world, Nene can live past her predetermined lifespan (which I've explained that it's in relation to fate, therefore time in the original CRT) and even grow up (Something that would be impossible to achieve in the real world, as she's fated to die before she reaches the age of 16), implying it works on a different space-time continuum. Hanako supports this by straight up stating that Shijima's world is completely cut off from reality.

The stars in the sky mirror the stars in real life, and the world is consistently mirrored and compared to "The Real World".


This isn't a must-have proof.

According to the Universe page, the world really only needs to have significant size for supportive evidence, which I have proven. Nene looks at the Red Giant Antares star from the Scorpio constellation through Amane's Telescope.

All of the evidence is gathered with the Universe page in mind, and everything I've put out respected its guidelines.

I should add that OP's argument for the downgrade doesn't actually address any reasonings that got my CRT accepted in the first place.
Click to expand...
I don't know why you keep bringing up arguments about lifespan or whatever.
Pocket reality manipulation basically works on a different space-time continuum, so I'm quite surprised why you keep denying it.
then regarding the size issue, a case/evidence can be said to be a "universe" if the size is sufficient.
but in Shijima's case it was difficult.
It is true that the size inside is exactly the same as the structure of the original world, but when seen from the outside, it is even smaller than the original universe, which is according to the evidence you brought, that the Shijima world is only the size of drawing paper.
 
Mr. Bambu said:
I don't recall contributing to that original thread, but I did, and I can understand my own positions better than those of others, hah.

Looking through it again, I would agree with Past-Me, that this is a very, very light instance of Low 2-C. I think the evidence sucks pretty bad at establishing a space-time continuum (indeed, I take the interpretation that it explicitly didn't create time, so time doesn't pass within these realms), nor infinite space; it is, after all, a drawing. A drawing can depict stars, but it cannot depict infinity. Nothing in the thread provides strong justification to Low 2-C.

All of that said. It was accepted at the time, and I reckon those "this is fines" would remain the same. Because this is a formal downgrade, and enough time has passed to have a formal downgrade, I will say that I agree that the thread before is wrong, and a downgrade is correct. That said, what specific proposal do you have? What tier were they before?
Click to expand...
I'll probably put it in "unknown" for now
then if I remember, there was someone who made a thread about boundaries in this fiction which would get a 4-A rating with the same concept and arguments as this thread
So I think I'll ignore that.
And also with the characters scaling with this L2-C thread is quite a lot, I think I'll return them to their original stats after this thread is approved.
 
I don't approve of an unknown. What statistic were they prior to being put at Low 2-C?
 
On what basis? A rating must have justification.

If it was Unknown before, then I'd be fine with Unknown, rather than some arbitrary filler.
 
Mr. Bambu said:
On what basis? A rating must have justification.

If it was Unknown before, then I'd be fine with Unknown, rather than some arbitrary filler.
Click to expand...
well, they're literally nothing more than mere human when it comes to statistics, so I'm going to demote Shijima to 10-A
the exception is Hanako and Tsukasa who already had 9-B statistics before
Apart from them, I will return all characters who scaled to L2-C to their initial stats, namely 10-A
 
SouMeaningless said:
well, they're literally nothing more than mere human when it comes to statistics, so I'm going to demote Shijima to 10-A
the exception is Hanako and Tsukasa who already had 9-B statistics before
Apart from them, I will return all characters who scaled to L2-C to their initial stats, namely 10-A
Click to expand...
I thought they were Unknown before?
 
SouMeaningless said:
Shijima's statistics are unknown before becoming L2-C
So I'll just put it at 10-A, if you agree
Click to expand...
That's not even close to being true. According to a different accepted CRT in which an UES was proved, every School Mystery is baseline 4-A.

SouMeaningless said:
So I think I'll ignore that.
Click to expand...
You can't ignore an accepted CRT.


SouMeaningless said:
Pocket reality manipulation basically works on a different space-time continuum, so I'm quite surprised why you keep denying it.
Click to expand...
That's not even remotely true? For a pocket reality to be a thing you don't need a separate time axis. It's universes that need it. Please do your research before saying stuff like this.


SouMeaningless said:
t is true that the size inside is exactly the same as the structure of the original world
Click to expand...
So you DO agree it's universe sized.
 
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This thread makes no sense, why is anyone even entertaining the idea of accepting it?

The OP in no way addresses the justifications and arguments for the current ratings. Instead it simply asserts a false belief that the universes appearing as pictures somehow debunks them actually being universes. Not only that but they're openly ignoring other previously accepted threads without even addressing anything said in them either, which is somehow even worse.

Even if you agree with the conclusion (in other words disagree with the current justifications), that does not justify accepting this specific thread. The claim made in the OP is pretty much objectively wrong, and if you want a downgrade for different reasons you should close this and make a different CRT that actually lists those reasons. Not completely ignore what the thread actually tries to claim and pretend it says something else.
 
Yeolban said:
That's not even remotely true? For a pocket reality to be a thing you don't need a separate time axis. It's universes that need it. Please do your research before saying stuff like this.
Click to expand...
Do you know what pocket reality really is? Why do you think it doesn't require a different time axis? even though from the name alone, it is a pocket dimension, which will be different from the original world? And also,in all cases of existing pocket dimensions, they always have a different time axis.
and I think you are the one who should read and understand the meaning clearly first.
 
SouMeaningless said:
Do you know what pocket reality really is? Why do you think it doesn't require a different time axis? even though from the name alone, it is a pocket dimension, which will be different from the original world? And also,in all cases of existing pocket dimensions, they always have a different time axis.
and I think you are the one who should read and understand the meaning clearly first.
Click to expand...

Quoting from the Pocket Reality Manipulation page:
Pocket realities, in this case, refers to realms that are spatially separate from other realms.
Click to expand...
Pocket realities only need to be spatially separate.

I'm proving Shijima's world is an universe by proving it also works on a different time axis, along with other supportive evidence.
 
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SouMeaningless said:
even though it is the size of a universe on the inside, but from the outside it is only the size of drawing paper.
Click to expand...
Because that's how the ability works…? What matters isn't how it appears to people outside but what's actually inside of the world. The universe might as well appear as a single speck of dust from the outside and it wouldn't debunk it being Low 2-C.
 
DavidTPPM said:
Because that's how the ability works…? What matters isn't how it appears to people outside but what's actually inside of the world. The universe might as well appear as a single speck of dust from the outside and it wouldn't debunk it being Low 2-C.
Click to expand...
but did you know that the speck of dust you said has infinite size? while Shijima's drawing paper? does it have infinite size?
"Pocket realities, in this case, refers to realms that are spatially separate from other realms (including universes) and either are of less than universal size on the inside or appear as less than universe sized objects when observed from the outside"
 
SouMeaningless said:
but did you know that the speck of dust you said has infinite size? while Shijima's drawing paper? does it have infinite size?
Click to expand...
On the inside sure but it doesn't matter how it appears from the outside. Things appearing small on the outside but being massive from the inside is an extremely common thing in fiction…
SouMeaningless said:
"Pocket realities, in this case, refers to realms that are spatially separate from other realms (including universes) and either are of less than universal size on the inside OR appear as less than universe sized objects when observed from the outside"
Click to expand...
The same quote you mentioned says Pocket Realities can be universe sized and appear smaller when observed from the outside. You're quite literally proving yourself wrong here.
 
DavidTPPM said:
On the inside sure but it doesn't matter how it appears from the outside. Things appearing small on the outside but being massive from the inside is an extremely common thing in fiction…

The same quote you mentioned says Pocket Realities can be universe sized and appear smaller when observed from the outside. You're quite literally proving yourself wrong here.
Click to expand...
Check about pocket dimensions on vsb if you're still denying it
and I think you're repeating the same thing like Yeolban did.
If you give your argument which I have responded to many times, I will completely ignore it and wait for the opinion of the staff, because I realize there will be no end to this if this continues.
 
SouMeaningless said:
Check about pocket dimensions on vsb if you're still denying it
Click to expand...
I did. You literally quoted the pocket reality manipulation page stating pocket realities can be the size of a universe despite appearing smaller from the inside. You proved that yourself and yet you are denying it.
SouMeaningless said:
If you give your argument which I have responded to many times, I will completely ignore it and wait for the opinion of the staff, because I realize there will be no end to this if this continues.
Click to expand...
What? We don't have to give arguments, you are the one who's proposing a downgrade which you didn't actually support.
All you did was say it appears smaller from the outside so it's not a universe, which is a non sequitor as Spaceman already told you it can appear smaller from the outside while still being a universe, especially since it could contain humans.

Then you quoted the Pocket Reality Manipulation page specifically saying a pocket reality CAN appear smaller than a universe from the outside, essentially proving yourself wrong.

It's not that we're repeating the same thing you responded to, it's that your response was not only insufficient but actually proved us right. If you're going to ignore the arguments you're simply conceding the point and basically the entire proposal…
 
DavidTPPM said:
I did. You literally quoted the pocket reality manipulation page stating pocket realities can be the size of a universe despite appearing smaller from the inside. You proved that yourself and yet you are denying it.

What? We don't have to give arguments, you are the one who's proposing a downgrade which you didn't actually support.
All you did was say it appears smaller from the outside so it's not a universe, which is a non sequitor as Spaceman already told you it can appear smaller from the outside while still being a universe, especially since it could contain humans.

Then you quoted the Pocket Reality Manipulation page specifically saying a pocket reality CAN appear smaller than a universe from the outside, essentially proving yourself wrong.

It's not that we're repeating the same thing you responded to, it's that your response was not only insufficient but actually proved us right. If you're going to ignore the arguments you're simply conceding the point and basically the entire proposal…
Click to expand...
then? Can pocket reality still be considered to have a universe rating?
 
For the record, to be accepted as universal, it needs to be universe sized. Not smaller.
Aside that, isn't the creation of the universe done through hard?
 
SouMeaningless said:
then? Can pocket reality still be considered to have a universe rating?
Click to expand...
Yes…? Why couldn't a pocket reality be a universe? As long as it meets the necessary standards (which it was proven to in the thread where this rating was accepted) a pocket reality can be of any size
 
DavidTPPM said:
A pocket reality can be of any size
Click to expand...
It has to be at least universe sized to be considered a universe among other things of course, but it can be of any size, it just won't be considered a universe unless it is universe sized
 
PrinceofPein said:
It has to be at least universe sized to be considered a universe among other things of course, but it can be of any size, it just won't be considered a universe unless it is universe sized
Click to expand...
Yes that's what I'm saying. Whether it's universe sized or not was already addressed in the CRT where all of this was accepted, and this thread is purely trying to dismiss is under the false idea that pocket realities can't be universal in size
 
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