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[MCU] Death/Wiccan revision

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LMalone22

LMalone22

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credits to @FentyBeauty for their sandbox and most parts of the CRT written by them

FentyBeauty/sandboxaaa​


Downgrade
Rio scales to wall level (1136121.74 Joules) via her destroying agatha’s door which i used the violent fragmentation values for destroying a door provided in the references for common feats, however in the clip where rio destroys a door, the remnants of the door look big rather than pebble-sized, so the values she scales to should be changed to the regular fragmentation values for destroying a door which is 516644.24 Joules or 516.644 KiloJoules
Abstract Existence Type 1
she has AE type 2 via embodying decay and being death itself (from reducing life as eternity and infinity expand it, killing and decomposing agatha when agatha absorbed her powers), but i think she should have AE type 1 based on the fact that she uses an avatar (as stated in the art of the GOTG that she usually takes the form of a woman and also shown in agatha all along as rio vidal and physically interacting with agatha & the other witches. she mainly appears in her cosmic fit/true form whenever she’s in the afterlife/astral plane taking peoples’ souls there, which is also why she has incorporeality too).

according to the gotg artbook, she also had came into existence at the same time as eternity, infinity, and entropy, with eternity having AE type 1 from embodying space and time of the universe so maybe death could be the same. this would also prevent weird issues circulating around her having abstract existence since agatha and wiccan are able to interact with her with their magic
likely at least 5-A with Magic -> At least 8-C, likely at least 5-C with Magic
i propose at least Building level+, likely at least Moon level with Magic, with the at least 8-C coming from just her being more powerful than Agatha Harkness who was restored to her ‘full glory’ which was when she was also able to fight with the Scarlet Witch and also knocking wanda down twice with her blasts, which Wanda has building level+ physical durability at that moment. also agatha should’ve been at least at that similar level in terms of durability since she took attacks from a non-bloodlusted wanda without absorbing them, which wanda’s blasts could at least knock out proxima midnight and corvus glaive who r 8-C, so death would have at least Building level+ with her magic since she was also able to effortlessly injure agatha with one hit and got her spitting blood out her mouth

and the 5-C/moon level comes from this downgrade thread here: https://vsbattles.com/threads/mcu-5-a-characters-revision.175843/

Other Stuff for Rio
Speed: Nigh-Omnipresent for Rio
Will manifest when someone is bound to die and also in the afterlife when one dies She appeared after Alice dies and her soul is taken to the hereafter
She appears during the death of Agatha son during childbirth
and reappears to take Nicolas soul to the hereafter

Attack Potency: Universe level+
While Eternity and Infinity represent necessity, Death represents vengeance
being stated to be in constant competition with both Eternity and Infinity It is said that all souls must come to see her. She takes souls to Hereafter, After exchanging the souls that had to be sacrificed for souls stones, it seemed impossible to redeem them and revive them, even by the power of the Infinity Stone. seems to resist the power of the Infinity Stone Even The Watcher himself could not sense the afterlife. Even though he said he knew and saw everything, he could not perceive the afterlife

Durability: Universe level+
As a cosmic entity, she should be comparable to Eternity in True Form

Wiccan
remove this justification:
Wields chaos magic, which is stated by Wong to be unfathomable, making him likely more powerful than the magic of the Sling Rings
Click to expand...
because wong was just talking abt wanda being an being of unfathomable magic so that statement only applies to her, and just bc he has chaos magic doesn’t mean he’s automatically more powerful than anything wong is knowledgable of or has access to (like sling rings in this case) when even wanda during age of ultron is only 6-B despite having chaos magic

Agree: Hixkaryana with everything, BunBun, Suigetsuhyugs with (AE type 1, Attack Potency and Durability, Other Stuff for Rio, Wiccan), DivineCreator389, Yoazkk6188, FinePoint, Theglassman12 Agree with the rest except speed, Qawsedf234 with the rest except AP and Durability Still waiting for his opinion again after the correction,

Neutral: Suigetsuhyugs with Speed, FinePoint with AE type 1 and speed, Qawsedf234 with AE type 1,

Disagree: Suigetsuhyugs with Remove Universal with Death Manipulation, RoTt35 with Durability, Theglassman12 with speed nigh-omnipresent, Qawsedf234 with speed nigh-omnipresent,
 
Last edited:
Agree
Yokoahh5743 said:
credits to @FentyBeauty for their sandbox and most parts of the CRT written by them

FentyBeauty/sandboxaaa​


Downgrade
Rio scales to wall level (1136121.74 Joules) via her destroying agatha’s door which i used the violent fragmentation values for destroying a door provided in the references for common feats, however in the clip where rio destroys a door, the remnants of the door look big rather than pebble-sized, so the values she scales to should be changed to the regular fragmentation values for destroying a door which is 516644.24 Joules or 516.644 KiloJoules
Abstract Existence Type 1
she has AE type 2 via embodying decay and being death itself (from reducing life as eternity and infinity expand it, killing and decomposing agatha when agatha absorbed her powers), but i think she should have AE type 1 based on the fact that she uses an avatar (as stated in the art of the GOTG that she usually takes the form of a woman and also shown in agatha all along as rio vidal and physically interacting with agatha & the other witches. she mainly appears in her cosmic fit/true form whenever she’s in the afterlife/astral plane taking peoples’ souls there, which is also why she has incorporeality too).

according to the gotg artbook, she also had came into existence at the same time as eternity, infinity, and entropy, with eternity having AE type 1 from embodying space and time of the universe so maybe death could be the same. this would also prevent weird issues circulating around her having abstract existence since agatha and wiccan are able to interact with her with their magic
likely at least 5-A with Magic -> At least 8-C, likely at least 5-C with Magic
i propose at least Building level+, likely at least Moon level with Magic, with the at least 8-C coming from just her being more powerful than Agatha Harkness who was restored to her ‘full glory’ which was when she was also able to fight with the Scarlet Witch and also knocking wanda down twice with her blasts, which Wanda has building level+ physical durability at that moment. also agatha should’ve been at least at that similar level in terms of durability since she took attacks from a non-bloodlusted wanda without absorbing them, which wanda’s blasts could at least knock out proxima midnight and corvus glaive who r 8-C, so death would have at least Building level+ with her magic since she was also able to effortlessly injure agatha with one hit and got her spitting blood out her mouth

and the 5-C/moon level comes from this downgrade thread here: https://vsbattles.com/threads/mcu-5-a-characters-revision.175843/

Other Stuff for Rio
Speed: Nigh-Omnipresent for Rio
Will manifest when someone is bound to die and also in the afterlife when one dies

Attack Potency: Possibly Universe level+
As a cosmic entity, she should be comparable to Eternity
While Eternity and Infinity represent necessity, Death represents vengeance
being stated to be in constant competition with both Eternity and Infinity She is one of the four creators, of the Infinity Stones, which has been identified as a singularity since the beginning of the universe

Durability: Possibly Universe level+
As a cosmic entity, she should be comparable to Eternity in True Form

Wiccan
remove this justification:

because wong was just talking abt wanda being an being of unfathomable magic so that statement only applies to her, and just bc he has chaos magic doesn’t mean he’s automatically more powerful than anything wong is knowledgable of or has access to (like sling rings in this case) when even wanda during age of ultron is only 6-B despite having chaos magic

Agree: Hixkaryana with everything

Neutral:

Disagree:
Click to expand...
Nice i Agree
 
Yokoahh5743 said:
credits to @FentyBeauty for their sandbox and most parts of the CRT written by them

FentyBeauty/sandboxaaa​


Downgrade
Rio scales to wall level (1136121.74 Joules) via her destroying agatha’s door which i used the violent fragmentation values for destroying a door provided in the references for common feats, however in the clip where rio destroys a door, the remnants of the door look big rather than pebble-sized, so the values she scales to should be changed to the regular fragmentation values for destroying a door which is 516644.24 Joules or 516.644 KiloJoules
Click to expand...
I watched that scene multiple times jsut now and I don't really see any big pieces of the door, but I might be blind.
Yokoahh5743 said:
Abstract Existence Type 1
she has AE type 2 via embodying decay and being death itself (from reducing life as eternity and infinity expand it, killing and decomposing agatha when agatha absorbed her powers), but i think she should have AE type 1 based on the fact that she uses an avatar (as stated in the art of the GOTG that she usually takes the form of a woman and also shown in agatha all along as rio vidal and physically interacting with agatha & the other witches. she mainly appears in her cosmic fit/true form whenever she’s in the afterlife/astral plane taking peoples’ souls there, which is also why she has incorporeality too).

according to the gotg artbook, she also had came into existence at the same time as eternity, infinity, and entropy, with eternity having AE type 1 from embodying space and time of the universe so maybe death could be the same. this would also prevent weird issues circulating around her having abstract existence since agatha and wiccan are able to interact with her with their magic
Click to expand...
I'm not well versed on AE so... for what I know this seems fine.
Yokoahh5743 said:
likely at least 5-A with Magic -> At least 8-C, likely at least 5-C with Magic
i propose at least Building level+, likely at least Moon level with Magic, with the at least 8-C coming from just her being more powerful than Agatha Harkness who was restored to her ‘full glory’ which was when she was also able to fight with the Scarlet Witch and also knocking wanda down twice with her blasts, which Wanda has building level+ physical durability at that moment.
Click to expand...
Sure
Yokoahh5743 said:
also agatha should’ve been at least at that similar level in terms of durability since she took attacks from a non-bloodlusted wanda without absorbing them, which wanda’s blasts could at least knock out proxima midnight and corvus glaive who r 8-C, so death would have at least Building level+ with her magic since she was also able to effortlessly injure agatha with one hit and got her spitting blood out her mouth
Click to expand...
Death scaling that low is weird. Considering that she has avatar creation she should likely be divided into keys for her true power and her avatars.
Yokoahh5743 said:
Other Stuff for Rio
  • Remove Universal with Death Manipulation (Reduces life in the universe with her abilities) because reducing life is just her thing and she hasnt shown that in that kind of level/range on-screen
Click to expand...
You just proposed her being night omnipresent that proves range and being comparable to eternity would likely support her level too.
Yokoahh5743 said:
Click to expand...
Sure
Yokoahh5743 said:
  • Removed the ‘at least’ from her ap since she just physically scales to a depowered agatha rather than upscaling from her
Click to expand...
If not at least then there should be an higher with magic like most others.
Yokoahh5743 said:
Click to expand...
The evidence is not really strong but sure.
Yokoahh5743 said:
Speed: Nigh-Omnipresent for Rio
Will manifest when someone is bound to die and also in the afterlife when one dies
Click to expand...
No scans, I'm not sure about this, I don't remember there being a strong case for this.
Yokoahh5743 said:
Attack Potency: Possibly Universe level+
As a cosmic entity, she should be comparable to Eternity
While Eternity and Infinity represent necessity, Death represents vengeance
being stated to be in constant competition with both Eternity and Infinity She is one of the four creators, of the Infinity Stones, which has been identified as a singularity since the beginning of the universe

Durability: Possibly Universe level+
As a cosmic entity, she should be comparable to Eternity in True Form
Click to expand...
I don't even think the "possibly" is needed, there is very little about death and her real power so it's not like a contradiction.
Yokoahh5743 said:
Wiccan
remove this justification:

because wong was just talking abt wanda being an being of unfathomable magic so that statement only applies to her, and just bc he has chaos magic doesn’t mean he’s automatically more powerful than anything wong is knowledgable of or has access to (like sling rings in this case) when even wanda during age of ultron is only 6-B despite having chaos magic
Click to expand...
Sure makes sense.
 
Suigetsuhyugs said:
I watched that scene multiple times jsut now and I don't really see any big pieces of the door, but I might be blind.
Click to expand...
I'll wait to for other people's opinions, since you're not sure
Suigetsuhyugs said:
I'm not well versed on AE so... for what I know this seems fine.
Click to expand...
Thank you
Suigetsuhyugs said:
Sure
Click to expand...
Thank you
Suigetsuhyugs said:
Death scaling that low is weird. Considering that she has avatar creation she should likely be divided into keys for her true power and her avatars.
Click to expand...
sure
Suigetsuhyugs said:
You just proposed her being night omnipresent that proves range and being comparable to eternity would likely support her level too.
Click to expand...
sure
Suigetsuhyugs said:
Sure
Click to expand...
thank
Suigetsuhyugs said:
If not at least then there should be an higher with magic like most others.
Click to expand...
maybe
Suigetsuhyugs said:
The evidence is not really strong but sure.
Click to expand...
Thank
Suigetsuhyugs said:
No scans, I'm not sure about this, I don't remember there being a strong case for this.
Click to expand...
Should I include the scene where she Take Alice soul to the limbo
Suigetsuhyugs said:
I don't even think the "possibly" is needed, there is very little about death and her real power so it's not like a contradiction.
Click to expand...
What you mean sorry
Suigetsuhyugs said:
Sure makes sense.
Click to expand...
Thank you
 
I will remove possibly from AP and Durability because someone suggested removing it
 
um idk abt her having nigh-omnipresence and possibly scaling to eternity but i do agree with the other stuff (since i wrote everything else ig)

if outright low 2-c does actually work for her then its best if she has separate keys to avoid scaling agatha and wiccan to her

this is what i had in my draft before i deleted it and gave the rest to yoko:

Tier: 9-B physically, at least 8-C, likely at least 5-C with Magic | Possibly Low 2-C

Key: Avatar | Cosmic Death

Attack Potency: Wall level physically (Can harm Agatha, who can take wind attacks from her, which could blow up Agatha’s door into pieces, with Agatha also withstanding getting a car thrown at her into a house and the impact on her wooden cabinet), at least Building level+, likely at least Moon level with Magic (Dueled with Agatha Harkness, who became empowered by Billy Maximoff’s chaos magic, and eventually overpowered her and Billy, with Agatha stating that they can’t fight her because it was futile, despite having contended with the Scarlet Witch and harming her with her magic before) | Possibly Universe level+ (As a cosmic entity, she should be comparable to the likes of her brother Eternity, with her being stated to be in constant competition with both Eternity and Infinity)

Speed: Subsonic travel speed with Relativistic+ combat speed and reactions (Comparable to Agatha Harkness) | Unknown

Lifting Strength: Unknown physically and with Magic (Climbed out of Sharon Davis’ grave after being summoned into the Witches’ Road. Ripped out Agatha’s kitchen sink with her magic and sent it through the walls of her house) | Unknown

Striking Strength: Wall level (Sent Agatha flying across the kitchen with a kick. Hurt Agatha with a headbutt, who could withstand her wind attacks that destroyed her door) | Unknown

Durability: Wall level (Can take hits fromAgatha. Got up after being thrown at a door) | Unknown

Stamina: Superhuman (Her physical avatar could continue fighting Wiccan and Agathaafter being attacked twice) | Infinite (Comparable to Eternity)
 
Yokoahh5743 said:
I'll wait to for other people's opinions, since you're not sure
Click to expand...
when rio enters agatha’s house u can see large broken pieces of the door lying on the ground which don’t look pebble-sized which i’m pretty sure for that it would be regular fragmentation instead of violent fragmentation since like thats for when the debris from the destruction is rlly small
 
FentyBeauty said:
when rio enters agatha’s house u can see large broken pieces of the door lying on the ground which don’t look pebble-sized which i’m pretty sure for that it would be regular fragmentation instead of violent fragmentation since like thats for when the debris from the destruction is rlly small
Click to expand...
Yeah I see it
 
I see no reason why Death would physically scale from Eternity, who is only Low 2-C because he is the living embodiment of the universe and time, that would imply that somehow Death also embodies that as she has no direct scale other than being abstract entities
 
RoTt35 said:
I see no reason why Death would physically scale from Eternity, who is only Low 2-C because he is the living embodiment of the universe and time, that would imply that somehow Death also embodies that as she has no direct scale other than being abstract entities
Click to expand...
But being stated to be in constant competition with both Eternity and Infinity doesn't that mean she should scale with eternity?
 
Yokoahh5743 said:
But being stated to be in constant competition with both Eternity and Infinity doesn't that mean she should scale with eternity?
Click to expand...
The competition is about Eternity expanding life while Death reduces it to maintain the balance of life and death in the universe, it doesn't mean that Death is physically wrestling with the living embodiment of the universe and time
 
RoTt35 said:
The competition is about Eternity expanding life while Death reduces it to maintain the balance of life and death in the universe, it doesn't mean that Death is physically wrestling with the living embodiment of the universe and time
Click to expand...
That mean she shouldn't have durability low2-c? or what
 
RoTt makes sense

in that case i disagree with her scaling to eternity then, and also tbh i was thinking we could remove the justification of “as a cosmic entity, she should be comparable to eternity” from her ap section since it makes it look a little weird
 
RoTt35 said:
The competition is about Eternity expanding life while Death reduces it to maintain the balance of life and death in the universe, it doesn't mean that Death is physically wrestling with the living embodiment of the universe and time
Click to expand...
That doesn't really change anything, they are both represented as coequals and it wouldnt make much sense to affirm that Death would be weaker than Eternity physically or not. All of Death's relatives were created at the same time as her and we often see parallelism structures when she's mentioned alongside them. I get that it's unclear but she should at least get a Likely denotation to assess that fact.
 
Hixkaryana said:
That doesn't really change anything, they are both represented as coequals and it wouldnt make much sense to affirm that Death would be weaker than Eternity physically or not. All of Death's relatives were created at the same time as her and we often see parallelism structures when she's mentioned alongside them. I get that it's unclear but she should at least get a Likely denotation to assess that fact.
Click to expand...
They are represented as coequals because both are abstract entities that maintain the balance of life and death in the universe, not because they are physically comparable. Plus Eternity is Low 2-C due to his Large Size, upgrading Death to his tier would imply that she is also universal sized
 
RoTt35 said:
They are represented as coequals because both are abstract entities that maintain the balance of life and death in the universe, not because they are physically comparable. Plus Eternity is Low 2-C due to his Large Size, upgrading Death to his tier would imply that she is also universal sized
Click to expand...
Tell me one reason why their state of equality/stalemate would randomly cap at their physicality. And we haven’t even seen Death’s full form yet, she only appeared through avatars.
 
Hixkaryana said:
Tell me one reason why their state of equality/stalemate would randomly cap at their physicality. And we haven’t even seen Death’s full form yet, she only appeared through avatars.
Click to expand...
Because there's no reason? Again, their competition is not a physical fight between them, Eternity expands life while Death reduces it and nothing more, they don't have to be physically comparable for that unless somehow Death is also a living universe
Hixkaryana said:
And we haven’t even seen Death’s full form yet, she only appeared through avatars.
Click to expand...
And? That would just grant her true form an Unknown tier since she doesn't have any feat
 
I’ll see what other people think, I think it’s a little simplistic to view it as such knowing she’s a fondamental force of the Universe.
 
Yokoahh5743 said:
Downgrade
the values she scales to should be changed to the regular fragmentation values for destroying a door which is 516644.24 Joules or 516.644 KiloJoules
Click to expand...
This is probably better for the calc group to evaluate.
Yokoahh5743 said:
Abstract Existence Type 1
she has AE type 2 via embodying decay and being death itself (from reducing life as eternity and infinity expand it, killing and decomposing agatha when agatha absorbed her powers), but i think she should have AE type 1 based on the fact that she uses an avatar (as stated in the art of the GOTG that she usually takes the form of a woman and also shown in agatha all along as rio vidal and physically interacting with agatha & the other witches. she mainly appears in her cosmic fit/true form whenever she’s in the afterlife/astral plane taking peoples’ souls there, which is also why she has incorporeality too).
Click to expand...

Using an avatar isn't proof alone you have no true physical form, it could be a projection of a portion of that physical form.
For Type 1, you'd need proof that she and the concept are functionally the same thing, not just that she represents or "embodies" it.
Yokoahh5743 said:
likely at least 5-A with Magic -> At least 8-C, likely at least 5-C with Magic
i propose at least Building level+, likely at least Moon level with Magic, with the at least 8-C coming from just her being more powerful than Agatha Harkness who was restored to her ‘full glory’ which was when she was also able to fight with the Scarlet Witch and also knocking wanda down twice with her blasts, which Wanda has building level+ physical durability at that moment. also agatha should’ve been at least at that similar level in terms of durability since she took attacks from a non-bloodlusted wanda without absorbing them, which wanda’s blasts could at least knock out proxima midnight and corvus glaive who r 8-C, so death would have at least Building level+ with her magic since she was also able to effortlessly injure agatha with one hit and got her spitting blood out her mouth

and the 5-C/moon level comes from this downgrade thread here: https://vsbattles.com/threads/mcu-5-a-characters-revision.175843/
Click to expand...
Makes sense to me.
Yokoahh5743 said:
Other Stuff for Rio
  • Remove Universal with Death Manipulation (Reduces life in the universe with her abilities) because reducing life is just her thing and she hasnt shown that in that kind of level/range on-screen
Click to expand...
What would you have the range be instead?
Yokoahh5743 said:
Click to expand...
Sure.
Yokoahh5743 said:
Speed: Nigh-Omnipresent for Rio
Will manifest when someone is bound to die and also in the afterlife when one dies She appeared after Alice dies and her soul is taken to the hereafter
Click to expand...
Are we sure this is a speed feat and not teleportation?
Yokoahh5743 said:
Attack Potency: Universe level+
While Eternity and Infinity represent necessity, Death represents vengeance
being stated to be in constant competition with both Eternity and Infinity She is one of the four creators, of the Infinity Stones, which has been identified as a singularity since the beginning of the universe

Durability: Universe level+
As a cosmic entity, she should be comparable to Eternity in True Form
Click to expand...
Makes sense to me.
Yokoahh5743 said:
Wiccan
remove this justification:

because wong was just talking abt wanda being an being of unfathomable magic so that statement only applies to her, and just bc he has chaos magic doesn’t mean he’s automatically more powerful than anything wong is knowledgable of or has access to (like sling rings in this case) when even wanda during age of ultron is only 6-B despite having chaos magic
Click to expand...
Agreed.
Yokoahh5743 said:
Agree: Hixkaryana with everything, BunBun, Suigetsuhyugs with (AE type 1, Attack Potency and Durability, Other Stuff for Rio, Wiccan)

Neutral: Suigetsuhyugs with Speed

Disagree: Suigetsuhyugs with Remove Universal with Death Manipulation, RoTt35 with Durability
Click to expand...
 
FinePoint said:
Are we sure this is a speed feat and not teleportation?
Click to expand...
I don't think that's the Teleport, since she must appear wherever there is death, then if it is Teleportation She also needed to be everywhere to appear
 
Yokoahh5743 said:
I don't think that's the Teleport, since she must appear wherever there is death, then if it is Teleportation She also needed to be everywhere to appear
Click to expand...
It could also be creating multiple avatars.
 
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