Hashirama and Otsutsuki's Mind Manipulation Resistance

Apollonir.Scale · May 18, 2024

Madara's intention is to take Hashirama's cells from him, and for this he needs to bite him and draw blood from him. If Madara's genjutsu had worked on Hashirama, he could have done it much more easily without fighting him. Therefore, Hashirama's mind manipulation resistance must be at least as layered as EMS Madara's genjutsu is.

Even Sasuke, who has the highest layered Genjutsu in the series, does not use genjutsu against any Otsutsuki. Layered mind manipulation resistance should be written on the Otsutsuki physiology page. Examples of this include the statement in Moviebook that it would not have been possible to defeat Momoshiki without Boruto, Sasuke not even trying to use genjutsu against Kinshiki, Urashiki and Kaguya, and Baryon Mode being the only way to defeat Isshiki.

It has been accepted that genjutsu is a layered form of mind manipulation, but I myself do not know how many layers it is listed as. If you write how many layers EMS Madara's genjutsu and Adult Sasuke's Genjutsu have, I will arrange the CRT accordingly.

I agree with Hashirama's resistance: Patates, Spectra, DavidTPPM
I disagree with Hashirama's resistance: Damage, KingogKings

I agree with Otsutsuki's resistance: Patates, Spectra, Deceived, Excellence, Pein, Nierre, Aurora, KaydeeX, karo_senpai
I disagree with Otsutsuki's resistance: KingogKings

DavidTPPM · May 18, 2024

This is a pretty interesting topic.
If a technique would normally grant the character basically an instant win but we don't see them use it, can we assume they possess resistance to it?

Damage3245 · May 18, 2024

Apollonir.Scale said:
If Madara's genjutsu had worked on Hashirama, he could have done it much more easily without fighting him. Therefore, Hashirama's mind manipulation resistance must be at least as layered as EMS Madara's genjutsu is.

So you don't actually have any feats of Resistance? You're just presuming that since Madara didn't use Genjutsu on him, that Hashirama could have resisted it?

That seems speculative.

DavidTPPM said:
This is a pretty interesting topic.
If a technique would normally grant the character basically an instant win but we don't see them use it, can we assume they possess resistance to it?

I wouldn't say so. Characters forget to use their powers all the time.

Spectra_Schiffer · May 18, 2024

following

DavidTPPM · May 18, 2024

Damage3245 said:
So you don't actually have any feats of Resistance? You're just presuming that since Madara didn't use Genjutsu on him, that Hashirama could have resisted it?

That seems speculative.

Maybe, but it's the only logical explanation on why the ability wasn't used so shouldn't such cases at least grant a "possibly" resistance?

DavidTPPM · May 18, 2024

Damage3245 said:
I wouldn't say so. Characters forget to use their powers all the time.

Well it's rarely because they just forgor

. If a character can straight up blink away their opponent, and does so in character, wouldn't them not doing so imply at least an extremely high likelihood of resistance?

Apollonir.Scale · May 18, 2024

Damage3245 said:
So you don't actually have any feats of Resistance? You're just presuming that since Madara didn't use Genjutsu on him, that Hashirama could have resisted it?

That seems speculative.

Frankly, I think it would be ridiculous for Madara not to use Genjutsu when he can use it for an arbitrary reason. Yes, it's a speculative comment, but the character has a lot of struggles with Hashirama, and the fact that he never uses genjutsu as a win-con makes me think that it won't work on Hashirama, or even if it does, Hashirama will get rid of it with power nullification at worst. So Hashirama may also have genjutsu resistance, or even if it is not resistance, he is saved by chakra control, so he may also have power null with chakra control. I think both are possible.

Damage3245 · May 18, 2024

DavidTPPM said:
Maybe, but it's the only logical explanation on why the ability wasn't used so shouldn't such cases at least grant a "possibly" resistance?

No. If you avoid looking in your opponent's eyes, then their eye-based Genjutsu won't get you.

PatatesR · May 18, 2024

Note: Each ">" is used to denote a layer of superiority.

Dojutsu Genjutsu Hierarchy:

The Last Sasuke's Genjutsu > Infinite Tsukuyomi > Kotoamatsukami > EMS Sasuke's Genjutsu/Tsukuyomi > Regular Mangekyō Sharingan Genjutsu > 3T Sharingan Genjutsu > Regular Genjutsu

If Hashirama's resistance is accepted, he should get a 3-layer Mind MP resistance. I am undecided on this issue. The explanation is a little bit up to interpretation.

As for the otsutsuki resistance, if it is accepted, it gets 7-layer mind mp resistance, I definitely agree with this.

DavidTPPM · May 18, 2024

Damage3245 said:
No. If you avoid looking in your opponent's eyes, then their eye-based Genjutsu won't get you.

I'm more so speaking in general. If for example there's a character that can turn you into mush with bio manip by just looking at you but doesn't do so against certain characters he actively tries to murder, wouldn't that imply the characters have some sort of resistance to it?

DavidTPPM · May 18, 2024

Btw for Hashirama specifically, there are clear panels of him having eye contact with Madara

Screenshot-2024-05-18-16-13-45-398-eu-kanade-tachiyomi-edit.jpg

Damage3245 · May 18, 2024

DavidTPPM said:
I'm more so speaking in general. If for example there's a character that can turn you into mush with bio manip by just looking at you but doesn't do so against certain characters he actively tries to murder, wouldn't that imply the characters have some sort of resistance to it?

Not necessarily.

Madara uses Genjutsu only once during his battle with the Five Kage against Ay. But he doesn't use it against the other four. Should the other four Kage be assumed to be too resistant to Madara's Genjutsu because he doesn't bother to use it against them? No.

DavidTPPM · May 18, 2024

Damage3245 said:
Not necessarily.

Madara uses Genjutsu only once during his battle with the Five Kage against Ay. But he doesn't use it against the other four. Should the other four Kage be assumed to be too resistant to Madara's Genjutsu because he doesn't bother to use it against them? No.

Different contexts. Madara was toying with the gokage. He also only used his perfect Susanoo once even tho he spammed it with Hashirama. Like, he offscreen one shotted them the moment he got bored.

Meanwhile Hashirama was his strongest opponent by far and fought him for hours at full power. Of course you're not going one shot your toys but an actual threat to your life? Why not?

Damage3245 · May 18, 2024

DavidTPPM said:
Different contexts. Madara was toying with the gokage. He also only used his perfect Susanoo once even tho he spammed it with Hashirama. Like, he offscreen one shotted them the moment he got bored.

Meanwhile Hashirama was his strongest opponent by far and fought him for hours at full power. Of course you're not going one shot your toys but an actual threat to your life? Why not?

Madara planned to lose that battle anyway; he had a time-delayed Izanagi to revive him.

DavidTPPM · May 18, 2024

And like I said, I'm also asking in general since you're an admin.

If a character could easily one shot someone else with an ability but never uses it, can that be used as basis for resistance? If not how else would we explain it? Calling it PIS would be a baseless assumption as long as there's no evidence the hax WOULD work in case it was used.

DavidTPPM · May 18, 2024

Damage3245 said:
Madara planned to lose that battle anyway; he had a time-delayed Izanagi to revive him.

He didn't plan to lose the battle, he just had a plan on what to do when he loses. There's literally no advantage to him losing. All it does is take out his eye and prolong his plan by literal dozens of decades

Damage3245 · May 18, 2024

DavidTPPM said:
And like I said, I'm also asking in general since you're an admin.

If a character could easily one shot someone else with an ability but never uses it, can that be used as basis for resistance? If not how else would we explain it? Calling it PIS would be a baseless assumption as long as there's no evidence the hax WOULD work in case it was used.

Granting a resistance would be an even more baseless assumption than calling it PIS.

Remember, characters often aren't flawless killing machines; they can do sub-optimal moves, choose not to use certain powers or forget about them. A character choosing not to use a certain ability against an opponent shouldn't just be put down as "They didn't use it because they knew it wouldn't work."

DavidTPPM said:
He didn't plan to lose the battle, he just had a plan on what to do when he loses. There's literally no advantage to him losing. All it does is take out his eye and prolong his plan by literal dozens of decades

Technically that isn't what prolonged his plan. It took several decades for his Rinnegan to awaken anyway which would be the case whether he won or lost.

DavidTPPM · May 18, 2024

Damage3245 said:
Granting a resistance would be an even more baseless assumption than calling it PIS.

Why?
They're both about equally baseless but the assumption that an extremely intelligent character didn't use an ability because they were aware it wouldn't work is far more logical than to say the it's PIS. Especially for characters who fight as much as Hashirama and Madara and who's fights are as essential to the plot as Hashirama vs Madara.

In other words, to dismiss it as PIS you wouldn't need some logical explanation for why it's more likely to be PIS.

Damage3245 said:
Remember, characters often aren't flawless killing machines; they can do sub-optimal moves, choose not to use certain powers or forget about them. A character choosing not to use a certain ability against an opponent shouldn't just be put down as "They didn't use it because they knew it wouldn't work."

That may work with characters that are actual idiots or abilities that a character only "technically" has but has never been seen using in character.
But characters like Madara are outright geniuses with insane analytical abilities. It's much more logical to say that a genius realizes that an ability wouldn't work rather than to say it's a PIS.

Damage3245 said:
Technically that isn't what prolonged his plan.

It really is. If he was not hiding he could have captured the bijuu before even getting a rinnegan and wouldn't need the whole nagato akatsuki shenanigans. He could literally enslave Hashirama and Tobirama (or just kill them in the genjutsu), rule the leaf, and collect bijuu while waiting for the rinnegan to pop up.

Deceived3596 · May 18, 2024

In regards to Hashirama, I think the situation with that is Madara probably didn't use Genjutsu against Hashirama given how much reverence he has for him as his rival, always wanting to fight him as he was the only one who could on equal grounding. It wouldn't make sense in-character for Madara to use that level of underhanded tactics against someone who is the only person who could truly "dance" with him. Madara only used Genjutsu against complete fodder who couldn't give him that fight Hashirama could, which to me implies he really only uses Genjutsu against those who he has zero respect towards and considers as weak. We don't truly know if this is the case or not as we're working upon pure speculation, but this is my opinion of it.

As for the Otsutsuki, I'm personally fine with a possible rating at least since we have much more evidence pointing to the idea that Otsutsuki are immune or highly resistant towards Genjutsu compared to the Hashirama stuff. I'm receptive to a higher rating given more evidence, but with the scans and statements I remember, I'm fine with a possible rating.

Spectra_Schiffer · May 18, 2024

Damage3245 said:
Not necessarily.

Madara uses Genjutsu only once during his battle with the Five Kage against Ay. But he doesn't use it against the other four. Should the other four Kage be assumed to be too resistant to Madara's Genjutsu because he doesn't bother to use it against them?

Damage3245 said:
Madara planned to lose that battle anyway; he had a time-delayed Izanagi to revive him.

No, Madara was just playing with kages. Madara fought and lost against Hashirama while he was in MS, right after gaining EMS, and in his Edo state. The contexts here are definitely different, meanwhile 'Madara already planned to lose' is a baseless claim, he just had a plan if he was going to be defeated. Madara is nothing short of Izuna, if he had the chance he would try to apply Genjutsu to him like Izuna did to Tobirama.

@Apollonir.Scale btw, you can sign me up as agreeing with OP

Excellence616 · May 18, 2024

I agree with Deceived

LordGriffin1000 · May 18, 2024

Can't ninja nullify genjutsu too? So another interpretation is Madara could use it, Hashirama (being the skilled ninja that he is) can then break it, effectively making it useless. We don't give resistances for stuff like a character not using an ability on another, countless characters would be getting resistances for this reasoning with nothing supporting it other than the character just didn't use it.

Deceived3596 said:
In regards to Hashirama, I think the situation with that is Madara probably didn't use Genjutsu against Hashirama given how much reverence he has for him as his rival, always wanting to fight him as he was the only one who could on equal grounding. It wouldn't make sense in-character for Madara to use that level of underhanded tactics against someone who is the only person who could truly "dance" with him. Madara only used Genjutsu against complete fodder who couldn't give him that fight Hashirama could, which to me implies he really only uses Genjutsu against those who he has zero respect towards and considers as weak. We don't truly know if this is the case or not as we're working upon pure speculation, but this is my opinion of it.

As for the Otsutsuki, I'm personally fine with a possible rating at least since we have much more evidence pointing to the idea that Otsutsuki are immune or highly resistant towards Genjutsu compared to the Hashirama stuff. I'm receptive to a higher rating given more evidence, but with the scans and statements I remember, I'm fine with a possible rating.

This is also a valid interpretation.

Testarossa002 · May 18, 2024

Damage3245 said:
Not necessarily.

Madara uses Genjutsu only once during his battle with the Five Kage against Ay. But he doesn't use it against the other four. Should the other four Kage be assumed to be too resistant to Madara's Genjutsu because he doesn't bother to use it against them? No.

Eh....
It's kinda useless to use sharingan genjutsu against opponents with teammates
They'll just null the affected one as seen in your example
And he only did it when he separated Ay from the rest with wood clones
A 1v1 is a different scenario

Apollonir.Scale · May 18, 2024

LordGriffin1000 said:
Can't ninja nullify genjutsu too? So another interpretation is Madara could use it, Hashirama (being the skilled ninja that he is) can then break it, effectively making it useless. We don't give resistances for stuff like a character not using an ability on another, countless characters would be getting resistances for this reasoning with nothing supporting it other than the character just didn't use it.

I agree with this thought. Even if Hashirama does not have any resistance to genjutsu, he can at least perform Power Nullfication with chakra control and get out of the effect of Genjutsu. There are already characters in the series who can escape genjutsu with chakra control. I think there should be power nullification even if there is no resistance for Hashirama.

PrinceofPein · May 18, 2024

I agree with the Deceiver

Nierre · May 18, 2024

deceived males sense to me

DarlingAurora · May 18, 2024

Agreed with deceived tho

Apollonir.Scale · May 18, 2024

In the meantime, let me write while I remember. Before Hashirama and Madara became friends, that is, when they were enemies, Madara did not use genjutsu. So even if you think EMS cannot resist Madara's genjutsu, it can resist MS Madara's genjutsu.

Damage3245 · May 18, 2024

Apollonir.Scale said:
In the meantime, let me write while I remember. Before Hashirama and Madara became friends, that is, when they were enemies, Madara did not use genjutsu. So even if you think EMS cannot resist Madara's genjutsu, it can resist MS Madara's genjutsu.

As I mentioned, Hashirama could have just not looked Madara in his eyes.

Apollonir.Scale · May 18, 2024

Damage3245 said:
As I mentioned, Hashirama could have just not looked Madara in his eyes.

Hashirama doesn't stay with his eyes closed throughout the battle. For example, in this scene, Hashirama can use Genjutsu while he has stopped fighting. Even when Hashirama's eyes are open, he doesn't try to genjutsu him.

In this scene, he could have started with genjutsu instead of Susanoo, but he did not do this against Hashirama.

Here he could try to genjutsu Hashirama so he wouldn't stab him. After all, taking genjutsu is something that will happen faster than holding the knife with his hand.

In a situation where Hashirama is off guard, he can try genjutsu again. There is no such thing as beating Hashirama fairly. Hashirama is off guard and can try genjutsu with his eyes open.

KingogKings777 · May 18, 2024

Disagree on both, just cause a character doesn't use their abilities on the x doesn't mean they get resistance cause of character y not using said ability.

Also do we even accept the moviebook as canon for scaling purposes? If so can you provide the scan for the statement you made in the OP please?

KingogKings777 · May 18, 2024

Deceived3596 said:
In regards to Hashirama, I think the situation with that is Madara probably didn't use Genjutsu against Hashirama given how much reverence he has for him as his rival, always wanting to fight him as he was the only one who could on equal grounding. It wouldn't make sense in-character for Madara to use that level of underhanded tactics against someone who is the only person who could truly "dance" with him. Madara only used Genjutsu against complete fodder who couldn't give him that fight Hashirama could, which to me implies he really only uses Genjutsu against those who he has zero respect towards and considers as weak. We don't truly know if this is the case or not as we're working upon pure speculation, but this is my opinion of it.

As for the Otsutsuki, I'm personally fine with a possible rating at least since we have much more evidence pointing to the idea that Otsutsuki are immune or highly resistant towards Genjutsu compared to the Hashirama stuff. I'm receptive to a higher rating given more evidence, but with the scans and statements I remember, I'm fine with a possible rating.

Also this makes sense too.

Apollonir.Scale · May 18, 2024

KingogKings777 said:
Also do we even accept the moviebook as canon for scaling purposes? If so can you provide the scan for the statement you made in the OP please?

It was used to say that Naruto and Sasuke were equal to each other. So I'm assuming it's Canon. I don't have the scan about Momoshiki at the moment. I'll post it when I find it.

KingogKings777 said:
Disagree on both, just cause a character doesn't use their abilities on the x doesn't mean they get resistance cause of character y not using said ability.

But the important thing here is that in both cases there are characters who very much want to win/achieve their goal. Let's call these characters X. Let the ones opposite them be Y. Why would X choose the difficult one, namely fighting, when he could defeat Y by genjutsuing him in the easy way? There is no big difference in speed between characters X and Y. It is not that the characters in X necessarily want to beat those in Y in a fair fight. The ability that the characters in X use most throughout the series is Genjutsu, and they cannot have forgotten it. Madara is not a forgetful character like Gai, even Gai does not forget his jutsu, he forgets the people he fights with.

karo_senpaii · May 18, 2024

Apollonir.Scale said:
Madara's intention is to take Hashirama's cells from him, and for this he needs to bite him and draw blood from him. If Madara's genjutsu had worked on Hashirama, he could have done it much more easily without fighting him. Therefore, Hashirama's mind manipulation resistance must be at least as layered as EMS Madara's genjutsu is.

Even Sasuke, who has the highest layered Genjutsu in the series, does not use genjutsu against any Otsutsuki. Layered mind manipulation resistance should be written on the Otsutsuki physiology page. Examples of this include the statement in Moviebook that it would not have been possible to defeat Momoshiki without Boruto, Sasuke not even trying to use genjutsu against Kinshiki, Urashiki and Kaguya, and Baryon Mode being the only way to defeat Isshiki.

It has been accepted that genjutsu is a layered form of mind manipulation, but I myself do not know how many layers it is listed as. If you write how many layers EMS Madara's genjutsu and Adult Sasuke's Genjutsu have, I will arrange the CRT accordingly.

I agree with Hashirama's resistance: Patates, Spectra, DavidTPPM
I disagree with Hashirama's resistance: Damage

I agree with Otsutsuki's resistance: Patates, Spectra, Deceived, Excellence, Pein, Nierre, Aurora
I disagree with Otsutsuki's resistance:

I agree with the otsusuki resistance. For hashirama couldn't he actually just avoid contact with madara eyes? Same way the kages did?

karo_senpaii · May 18, 2024

LordGriffin1000 said:
Can't ninja nullify genjutsu too? So another interpretation is Madara could use it, Hashirama (being the skilled ninja that he is) can then break it, effectively making it useless. We don't give resistances for stuff like a character not using an ability on another, countless characters would be getting resistances for this reasoning with nothing supporting it other than the character just didn't use it.

This is also a valid interpretation.

What do you think on the otsusuki?

KingogKings777 · May 18, 2024

Apollonir.Scale said:
It was used to say that Naruto and Sasuke were equal to each other. So I'm assuming it's Canon. I don't have the scan about Momoshiki at the moment. I'll post it when I find it.

Iirc that was promotional material for the last or the novel for the last. Not the Boruto movie/novel/manga/anime which has as you can see 4 different versions.

Apollonir.Scale said:
But the important thing here is that in both cases there are characters who very much want to win/achieve their goal. Let's call these characters X. Let the ones opposite them be Y. Why would X choose the difficult one, namely fighting, when he could defeat Y by genjutsuing him in the easy way? There is no big difference in speed between characters X and Y. It is not that the characters in X necessarily want to beat those in Y in a fair fight. The ability that the characters in X use most throughout the series is Genjutsu, and they cannot have forgotten it. Madara is not a forgetful character like Gai, even Gai does not forget his jutsu, he forgets the people he fights with.

Why didn't Madara use genjutsu against Guy out of curiosity? Why didn't Sasuke use Human Path, Deva Path, Animal Path, Asura path on the aliens or Shin? Are they now able to resist said abilities cause of them not being used on them?

Damage3245 · May 18, 2024

KingogKings777 said:
Why didn't Madara use genjutsu against Guy out of curiosity? Why didn't Sasuke use Human Path, Deva Path, Animal Path, Asura path on the aliens or Shin? Are they now able to resist said abilities cause of them not being used on them?

Yeah. Both Sasuke and Madara don't use like 80% of the Rinnegan's abilities typically.

KaydeeX · May 18, 2024

Deceived FRA
I disagree with Hashirama’s resistance. Madara in-character is the type of guy that takes pleasure from battle and being able to look down on his opponent, it’s very reasonable that Madara just wanted a simple battle of strength against Hashirama for rivalry sake, which is very much understandable than the lore of “he could have”

Apollonir.Scale · May 19, 2024

KingogKings777 said:
Why didn't Madara use genjutsu against Guy out of curiosity? Why didn't Sasuke use Human Path, Deva Path, Animal Path, Asura path on the aliens or Shin? Are they now able to resist said abilities cause of them not being used on them?

Madara already wanted to fight Gai. If his form there was the 3-Eyed Juubidara who could perform Mugen Tsukiyomi, then he could have resorted to genjutsu instead of fighting. Sasuke almost doesn't fight Shin. Sakura fought with them mostly. Since they don't know what Shin's abilities are, they are wary of him. There is also a panel where Naruto says we must be careful for the child Shin. The reason why he does not use Chibaku Tensei is that Chibaku Tensei is a technique that consumes a lot of chakra and is not a technique that can be used in all terrains. Sasuke lost a lot of chakra from traveling through Kaguya's dimensions. They fought with Shin in Shin's cave, that place is not suitable for Chibaku Tensei and if he had used it, Child Shin's would also have withdrawn. They don't want to harm children. Since he doesn't use other rinnegan techniques, I won't talk about them. There is nothing to resist in Amenotejikara ability anyway.

Apollonir.Scale · May 19, 2024

karo_senpaii said:
I agree with the otsusuki resistance. For hashirama couldn't he actually just avoid contact with madara eyes? Same way the kages did?

As I mentioned in the comment above, Madara can catch him off guard and use genjutsu. Hashirama does not stay with his eyes closed throughout the fight. There's no reason why he shouldn't perform genjutsu when he realizes he's going to lose. Even though EMS Madara would not choose to use genjutsu in the worst case scenario, MS Madara did. Because MS Madara wants to take revenge on Tobirama and Hashirama because his brother was killed. There is nothing to suggest that he would want to take his revenge without using genjutsu.

Hashirama and Otsutsuki's Mind Manipulation Resistance

Awakened after 1000 years

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