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Possible Jubileus's upgrade?

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So I just had a quick ask with Kamiya. Basically I asked him actual info about the size of the human realm, whether it's only limited to the Earth or it also includes the outside universe. He said it's the same size with the universe.

[1]

Later, I tried to ask him about the size of Paradiso and Inferno too and got this as an answer.

[2]

Unfortunately he got annoyed when I expressed concern to confirm for the actual destructive force of Jubileus with the Right Eye. So I guess someone else has to do it then for further confirmation ? But with these information in hands, where can we put Jubileus now ? Since her possessing both eyes means that she has the capability of destroying 3 dimension/realities which are as large as the known universe and then create a new one in manners that she sees fit. Does that mean it's not impossible to think that she is capable to at least bring destruction to the human realm/the realm that her Eye holds govern over with just one Eye? Would this mean that she's at least 3-A ?

What do you guys think ?
 
In a similar discussion, I believe it was agreed that since the Eyes of the World belong to Aesir and are are his powers originally, then the capabilities of the Eyes together should be attributed to him.

On another note, it would probably be best not to probe Kamiya too much. He doesn't seem to take kindly to seemingly irrelevant questions.
 
I mean it's written in the lore and a widely accepted fact in the world of Bayo that both Eyes being used together by a ruler of each realm would mean the end of realities of the verse itself. Besides, it makes sense for Aesir to actually want to rule the human universe instead of solely the Earth. I know vsbattle has been trying to not use WOG as a proof for character's tier so a possibily 3-A would be more understandable.
 
Hmm...this has potential, but then again this is Kamiya we're talking about. If people accept it though think this could maybe warrant a possibly 3-A
 
While I agree that Jubileus should be equal to Aesir, the power she would've used to reform the trinity of realities (the Eyes of the World) were not her own. They belonged to Aesir, the God of Chaos. The lore states that Aesir's eyes "saw through reality, and those vision became our world." From this we can infer that anyone possessing both eyes could mold reality. Even though the avatars of Jubileus and Shiva seem to have something that looks similar to the Eyes of the World, the eyes in the game are explicitly stated to be from Aesir. Since they are his eyes and his power it stands to reason that it should be attributed to him.
 
One thing though, since the Universe of Bayo is made up from 3 realities/dimensions that are equal in size, as in as huge as our universe, does that make Aesir a low multiversal being ? And Jubileus with the Right Eye can hypothetically destroy at least one Reality in the Trinity.

I really want to ask Kamiya about how balance the trio in Bayo's verse is. But I don't want to get blocked either. Such dilenmma.

Anw, I agree with this first and foremost should go to Aesir since he's the original owner of the Eyes.
 
@Spamac

No. Not it there isn't any spatial-temporal / 4D manipulation.

At best we'll get Right Eye Jubileus to 3-A.
 
You will need to get Azathoth's approval about this. Also, these constant Bayonetta upgrade threads are getting tiresome.
 
Hm...I'm not very sure what would be qualified as spatial-temporal manipulation in that sense. Aesir managed to create and drag both Bayo and Balder into an endless chaotic space. Balder got shot out of that space later in the battle and he couldn't come back. Aesir also slowed Bayo down with time control, although that's mostly a game mechanic but there's no reason to see why he could not, now that he had both Eyes. Loptr also was able to drag Balder from the past to the present, open the door to the spirit realm with just his mere soul, and all of those summoning weapons from the past to the future to fight Bayo. Not to mention both Eyes can be considered as the battery for that reset action in Bayo's verse. I'm just listing all possible space and time relating sequences happened in the game though.
 
Right Eye + Left Eye = Universe level

Right Eye OR Left Eye =/= Universe level

Aesir is Universe level because the Eyes are his power that he created. Nobody else in the verse managed to stand up to him when he had this power, and he was only defeated when Loki, who was originally a part of him, used his own power of nothingness to erase the Eyes, making Aesir weak.

Jubileus is not Universe level because she needed Aesir's power to perform a universal feat. One-Eyed Jubileus was brutally murdered by significantly less than universal power.

The only one who possibly scales to Aesir is Omne due to incredibly vague lore statements.

This has been covered multiple times.
 
Kinda saw this coming considering the failure of the last thread...You think we should close this thread? Unless we get decisive evidence it's no use beating a dead horse...
 
Well, I would prefer to see a new concise discussion rule explanation about why this topic is forbidden, along with links to debunk threads.
 
As much as I want Bayonetta to be returned to Universal, Azzy does have a point. At least we can say Bayonetta has a Universal character. Who knows? A Bayonetta 3 may one day come out and upgrade to Umbra Witch we all love. I think that until we get decisive evidence we should drop the subject. Unless Azzy will agree to "possibly Universal" (wink wink nudge nudge..) In which I highly doubt considering what has been argued in other threads.
 
I have added a discussion rule about not bringing up this topic again, which links to the previous discussions. Should I close this thread now?
 
Don't close it. I have new evidence regarding Jubileus, Sheba, Aesir, Young Balder, and Bayo. Please wait for it. I need to ask everyone to at least take a look at Bayonetta's anime final fight, and a closer look at the cutscenes of Bayo and Balder against Aesir. Also, Azzy made a mistake regarding the last confrontation in Bayonetta 2. Going to clear this up in some minutes.
 
So thanks to Kamiya, who somehow I managed to answer me a question, and some previous statements that he made in the past, we know that the Jubileus resurrected in the first game and Sheba are not tier 3. In both, the anime and the game, they can travel faster than light across the Solar System, and destroy big asteroids and even Jupiter with one punch, but that's it. Because both of them weren't properly resurrected in their respective Reality and didn't have both eyes, its impossible for them to be tier 3, or universal forces. Both of them separately cannot rewrite any reality at all, not even their own, with just one eye.

Sheba vs. Jubileus anime fight:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CAHstiNkz6k

Kamiya's response to my tweet:

https://twitter.com/PG_kamiya/status/751571099184275456

Another Kamiya statement regarding Jubileus:

"Kamiya clarifies that Jubileus was improperly revived during her resurrection in the climactic battle. This is because she only possessed the powers derived from the Right Eye. Kamiya also implied that she would have been much more powerful if she were resurrected properly in Paradiso rather than through Balder's meddling."


Also, unfortunately for the real or pre-First Armageddon Jubileus, the one that existed before Aesir created the Eyes of the World, we don't truly know how strong she is. The lore just mentions that she sat at the center of the Armageddon and was sealed because of that, and that the Eyes of the World (Aesir's powers created after the First Armageddon) are the only things that can fully resurrect her and restore her power. In other words, Balder is just using Aesir's power to resurrect a Jubileus capable of rewritting the 3 realities, not the original/real Jubileus's own power. They never clarify if she caused the Armageddon or if the forces of "the struggle" provoked it, making the real Jubileus just a possible victim of this cosmic phenomenon and not the one in control of it. Like Azzy pointed out, Balder and Temperantia speak that a Jubileus with both Eyes could rebuild the Trinity of Realities and create a new one, but we never see that on action, and even if that were to happen it would be because of Aesir's Eyes and the authority that each ruler (Aesir, Jubileus, and Sheba) have over their own reality. The original Jubileus's tier is a mystery.

About Omne, in-game description states that she can defeat any form of chaos, but that doesn't necessarily mean that she could defeat a fully-powered Aesir, just that she is a creator capable of controlling any form of chaos... like Aesir. In the end though, her power comes from the one Aesir created after the First-Armageddon, it's not her own power, but rather Aesir's that makes her a tier 3 being. As long as any being posseses or controls both Eyes of the World it instantly becomes a tier 3, a being capable of recreating at least the human universe. After all, remember that these 2 treasures are the power itself that created/shaped the human reality in the first place.

Omne's description:

"An omniscient being formed by a miraculous unison of the powers of Paradiso and Inferno. The past leaders of the Umbra and Lumen clans, though they were aware of Omne's existence, were unable to summon it to this realm. It took the combined power of light and darkness, united in the bond of father and daughter, to finally summon Omne successfully. Posessing the qualities of both darkness and light, it can defeat even the most dissonant of chaos."


Aesir's legend:

"Nobody knows where the world came from. A struggle caused the Trinity of Realities to be split into three realms: light, darkness, and chaos. Obviously, our world was the one born from chaos. The three worlds all needed rulers. Most of all, ours. And the one that ruled the chaos became known as Aesir. Aesir spent the first eternity quietly looking upon the Earth from his holy mountain. Where we only see reality and make it match our rules of the world, Aesir saw through reality, and those visions became our world. These observations became Aesir's power. Aesir's eyes were truly the eyes that created the world.

However, Aesir pitied the humans for their naivety and lack of free will, so the power he wielded was split into two equal halves and entrusted each to humanity's instincts: the Right Eye of Light, and the Left Eye of Darkness. By dividing the power of the eyes of Aesir, humans gained free will... They could now choose. With control of the Eyes of the World, the eyes that determine destiny, humans could choose their own paths. They awoke to their own identities. Man is but a reed, the most feeble thing in nature, but now we were thinking reeds, and we could our big first step towards grand prosperity.

The inheritors of the eyes of Aesir had been granted the power of creation."

So, we know that Aesir when he has both Eyes is tier 3, because they contain the necessary power to rewrite a Reality, and that carrying out the process for each Ruler of the Trinity to obtain both Eyes (or even one) is more effective when done in their respective realm/universe/reality (thing that Loptr perfectly did in Fimbulventr). We also know that Omne is tier 3, but because of Aesir's power sealed in the Eyes, not because of the real/original Jubileus's. And that it's impossible to be a tier 3 with just one eye, specially for a resurrected Jubileus or Sheba in the Chaos realm/reality. But what about Bayonetta and Balder at his prime? How strong are against Loptr with both eyes (Aesir) by themselves? Can they give a fair fight to the ruler of the chaotic and hurt him?

First, let us clear up that by the end of the first game, Bayonetta with an awakened Left Eye and 500 years of living experience is capable of hurting and beating up in a fight Jubileus resurrected with just the Right Eye in the reality of chaos. She just relied on Sheba to kill her, not to defeat her. Bayo by herself had already pretty much won the fight and weakened a lot Jubileus without relying on Sheba. So by the end of Bayonetta 1, Bayo is capable of defeating in a fight a tier 5 being, by herself with the Left Eye.

In Bayonetta 2 for the first time ever, two foes that are apparently capable of defeating or at least fight in par with a "serious" Bayonetta appear, the Lumen Sage (or Young Balder) and Loptr (later Aesir). For the first time we see her struggle after she awakened her Eye. Bayonetta even passes out against Young Balder, and Aesir (Prophet form) seems that he was seconds aways of killing her. Though, the Prophet mentions that she is possibly forfeiting in battle and not using her Eye at her full potential, again. After all, he knows what the two Eyes of the World are truly capable of.

Prophet's statement:

https://youtu.be/QJshzINFeHg?t=6m43s

So by the end of the second game, Bayonetta gives a more appropiate fight against Aesir when he has the Right Eye in Fimbulventr and even avoided passing out against a serious Young Balder in the Inferno. She is fighting better than when the game started, by far, but Loptr still manages to catch her and retrieve the Left Eye to become Aesir. By now Loptr as Aesir is a tier 3 being, he has both Eyes of the World and can reshape the Chaotic Reality (the human universe) anyway he likes. Of course, even without their Eyes and kinda tired, Young Balder and Bayonetta still decide to fight against Aesir, and surprise! Both of them actually manage to fend off most his attacks and land hits on him. Aesir gets hurt throught the battle and separates Balder from the fight, so that he can kill Bayonetta, but even then she still manages to fight on par with him and even avoid getting killed by the Shirogane Comet, an giant anti-matter particle cannon featured in Wonderful 101. How the hell that thing ended up there? I don't know, it's mostly a joke or a cameo for Platinum Games' fans, and yes he is receiving damage and is struggling against her, this is evident not only when she land attacks on him, but also when she throws back at him the Shirogane Comet. He is screaming, he is getting hurt. Even takes some seconds to recover from the giant anti-matter canon crashing against him. By the way, Aesir's control over space-time is so OP, that he can even invoke the Shirogane Comet to attack again from a long distance, even if Bayonetta destroys it once in battle.

Aesir taking damage from the Shirogane Comet:

https://youtu.be/RwZfspuQSQw?t=18m45s

Just to further prove that Bayo and Balder managed to hurt Aesir and tire him, we can see that as Loki is taking away the Eyes from him, his armor and ornaments are damaged. They don't break away as the Eyes disappear, but rather were broken even before the Eyes started to vanish, specially the one over his face and on his back. For example, the one on his back consisted of 3 geometric shapes, but we just see that one made it through the fight. We don't see or hear his armor and ornamnets break as a result of Loki's actions (Eyes disappearing), because they were broken by Balder and Bayonetta to begin with. Those were the results of the battle. On the other hand, we don't see Balder and Bayo bleeding, nor their clothes/armor torn off. Not only that, but Loptr shows signs of exhaustion after the Eyes go, so the battle did strain him. He was actually putting effort into the fight. He isn't tired because Loki took away all of his powers, the cards Loki used just had the designs of voids and Eyes, and besides Loptr still manages to create portals across space-time in an attempt to resurrect in another body.

Aesir's broken armor and signs of struggle:

https://youtu.be/UcK8Py3tt8A?t=34s

Without the Eyes of the World on their side, Balder and Bayo still managed to fight Aesir as a tier 3 being, they fought on the same level, and even slighty above his, judging by the state of their clothes, lack of wounds, and less signs of exhaustion. In the end though, Loki gives them the Eyes back, which now they control perfectly it to summon Omne, becoming for sure and without question tier 3 together, to finish off a tired and weakened Loptr.

So Young Balder and Bayonetta without the Eyes are capable of repellling a tier 3 and even fight better than this universal being, specially Bayonetta (even alone).
 
It depends entirely on Azathoth's view regarding this.
 
I have almost 0 knowledge about Bayonetta but it seems like the matter is that if the fight truly waranted scaling.

And imo, if we accepted Tifa's rather sloppy fight against Loz, I think this un-sloppy fight would most likely be useable for scaling.
 
Already explained why scaling to Aesir despite not doing any significant damage until Loki's intervention isn't legit.

It's exactly the same as scaling literally everyone in Homestuck to Low 1-B for putting up a fight against (while not hurting) Lord English.

I haven't seen Advent Children in years, so I don't know about the Loz situation.
 
I guess the LoZ situation is that Tifa likely didn't defeat LoZ. She just scaled to him for fighting him so that's why this fight should be fine.

-Thats my guess. Not trying to be a pest about this but the video does still show that Aesir did in fact get hurt. You can hear his grunting in pain when you fight him. He seems to take damage from them beforehand as well. as like stated earlier he was damaged. I say that's enough to put at least "possibly 3-A" considering the other upgrade that I will drop now.
 
This is only from memory, but the whole fight was like the fight with Aesir, with Loz taking and trading blows with Tifa (Screams of pain included). But then at the end he just gets up casually and decides to blitzes and stomp her.

Although there seem to be extra circumstances in Bayo's fight that I'm not aware off so I'll just crawl away from this conversation now.
 
So how does a Planet level character hurt a Universe level character? He seem legit injured during that struggle. Like I said it should warrent a "possibly 3-A" since they managed to fight him. Like I said that was used by Tifa to scale her. I'm likely just confused and I apologize but it just seems unfair that one character gets scaled while another does not. It's really bothering me. But I feel like I'm starting to be a pest...
 
@Azzy

I feel like that's a bit of a false comparison seeing as how that also has the problem of being an astronomical outlier.
 
Aesir looked about as injured as Lord English during the fight I linked (read: not very), and both came out perfectly fine until the thing keeping them so powerful was removed. Again, smacking someone around is not the same as legitimately injuring someone.
 
I'd argue English isn't actually hurt. He just kinda takes them looking done with everyone's BS. While Aesir (From Dragon's words) seems to have physical damage (Only the clothes, yes, but I'd be hard to portray damage otherwise).

Also, any reasons why Bayo taking his hits is not considered like a dura feat? Has he been confirmed to hold back or smth?
 
Saikou The Lewd King said:
I'd argue English isn't actually hurt. He just kinda takes them looking done with everyone's BS. While Aesir (From Dragon's words) seems to have physical damage (Only the clothes, yes, but I'd be hard to portray damage otherwise).
Also, any reasons why Bayo taking his hits is not considered like a dura feat? Has he been confirmed to hold back or smth?
Aesir doesn't even have clothes in his universal form.

The same reason Tavros taking LE's hits doesn't give him Low Hyperversal durability; their opponent was clearly toying with them. Notice how during the Lord English fight, whenever he actually wants someone dead, they die. Any other time, he just smacks them around like a bug. Aesir spends the little time he has his power being incredibly smug until Loki erases the eyes. IIRC, he never even directly throws a full attack at Bayo or Balder in a cutscene, either.
 
Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot said:
Aesir looked about as injured as Lord English during the fight I linked (read: not very), and both came out perfectly fine until the thing keeping them so powerful was removed. Again, smacking someone around is not the same as legitimately injuring someone.
Aesir's wing/kite thing was totally tattered and like I said we heard painfilled grunts from the initial conflict. He showed legit battle damage, meaning Bayo and Balder managed to legit injure him. Taking away his eyes allowed them to kill him yes but the fact remains that they injured and did significant damage to him. as shown with his wings.
 
Also what about the comet? That was used to kill Bayonetta. Yet when she tossed it back it actually hurt him.
 
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