Yusuke vs Naruto but with AP being different than DC

[Zaelleaz]

I can't stress enough on how much I see characters viewed in power simply on how much they can destroy but this would be a very interesting fight if what goes into feats "actually" being impressive was discussed or used.

Yes I made these videos.. don't have to watch them of course but they'd immediately address the topic.

AP vs DC: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IdUKtpMmIwI&list=PLA7V1pQyQX32ydmCsCoH5ro_id_j00KO7&index=2&t=0s

Scaling and what to avoid: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0gThFWayzdA&list=PLA7V1pQyQX32ydmCsCoH5ro_id_j00KO7&index=3&t=196s

Anyway, Naruto obviously has a large arsenal of utility and large AOE making it hard/impossible to dodge a lot of his attacks so Yusuke's regen would constantly be challenged but Yusuke's extremely superior AP and durability makes me think he's got this in the bag pretty easily but I know that's against the grain in this site so still worth bringing up this match up imo.

 

[M3X_2.0]

I really don't know how people even think that YYH has more AP than Naruto. Naruto has a lot of explosions feats, feats with moons and such things. Never saw a single feat for YYH, only statements, ofc below Naruto

 

[Zaelleaz]

It's because those giant explosions have massive DC but that isn't AP. That's not attack potency. In fact, read how attack potency is defined on this very site where it verbatim states AOE isn't a part of AP. Naruto explosions/ giant AOE attacks 100% destroy more matter than YYH but "ONLY" because of the massive AOE. Watch the video on AP vs DC (if you want ofc) and you'll see what I mean.. it's the fastest way. YYH mostly goes off of very precise scaling that uses very minimal assumptions and beheaded hill feat from sensui's shockwave.

 

[Wokistan]

Why did you make 3 threads about the same thing

 

[M3X_2.0]

I never said that AoE attacks are DC or something like it. I don't even know what are you talking about. I know the difference between DC and AP, I am even tired of discussing this difference.

YYH feats doesn't come closer to Naruto's most basic Tier 6 feats.

 

[Zaelleaz]

Effeciency and seperate topics (not same thing). I both want a good discussion over how AP is differentiated from DC, how this site would scale that difference, etc but I also would enjoy a good discussion on Yusuke vs Naruto. But because I know that AP is so vastly different from DC as AOE is larger and larger in feats, it's simply "critical" that the difference is aknowledged. So.. there's my reasons lol.

 

[Agnaa]

It's because those giant explosions have massive DC but that isn't AP. That's not attack potency. In fact, read how attack potency is defined on this very site where it verbatim states AOE isn't a part of AP. Naruto explosions/ giant AOE attacks 100% destroy more matter than YYH but "ONLY" because of the massive AOE. Watch the video on AP vs DC (if you want ofc) and you'll see what I mean.. it's the fastest way. YYH mostly goes off of very precise scaling that uses very minimal assumptions and beheaded hill feat from sensui's shockwave.

But the AoE is part of the energy, and hence, a part of the AP. The "AoE isn't a part of AP" part is there so we don't get people saying "lol, this attack only affected a human area, so it can't be 8-C!"

Maybe that explains the misunderstanding? We don't try to rate AP as the amount of energy per unit volume, we rate it as the amount of energy expended for an attack.

 

[Zaelleaz]

But that's not how potency works at all. It's why the more concentrated the force of something is.. the more "potent" it is. Literally how we find how potent something is including things like poison, not just physical or energy blasts. Answer me this.. if there's an attack that is potent enough to destroy and topple a tree but would fail to do so against a metal tree is it still tree level potency? Now let's say it keeps that level of potency but the AOE now covers a forest... is the AP really forest level now just because a forest was destroyed? It's still tree level potency and the AOE is a direct multiplier of the DC only.

Even moreso, if someone was human sized inside that forest and they were tree level durability, they may not even be hurt by the forest wiping attack as the total force of all the AOE would simply be fractions upon fractions of that force acting upon the surface area of the human sized person.

Last example why simply using total energy in attack = AP is bad. You could have an attack with infinite range (infinite AOE) that if it came in contact with rock (so meteors or such) it would be stopped until the rock or below durable object moved. But in a vaccume, this attack has infinite range.. and therefore infinite energy.. so infinite AP? But would be stopped by rock?

 

[Wokistan]

"tree level" isn't a thing, and metal trees aren't baseline trees. Those two things would have completely different durabilies.

Explosions have irl formulas used to get their total energy output. It takes a lot more energy to get something destructive to spread over such a large distance. If anything, in raw energy output a bomb blowing up every tree in a forest probably has a much higher yield than (Tree destruction) * (# of trees in a forest).

People divide by surface area for the purposes of explosion tanking feats to accommodate for that.

Infinite range wouldn't be infinite AoE, and typically throwing "infinite" into the mix is already getting rid of normal physics. This is due to inertia anyways. In a vacuum, there's nothing to halt the energy of this object, and as per the law of inertia, an object at motion will stay in motion. There's no force needed for constant speed, because A=0 so you'd have F=M(0). The rock would be what applies that force to halt the object traveling through the vacuum.

 

[Agnaa]

But that's not how potency works at all. It's why the more concentrated the force of something is.. the more "potent" it is. Literally how we find how potent something is including things like poison, not just physical or energy blasts.

That's a fine definition, imo, but it turns out to not be very useful for our site.

Answer me this.. if there's an attack that is potent enough to destroy and topple a tree but would fail to do so against a metal tree is it still tree level potency?

I'd say yes. We consider our "levels" to be sorts of baselines of destroying a construct.

Now let's say it keeps that level of potency but the AOE now covers a forest... is the AP really forest level now just because a forest was destroyed? It's still tree level potency and the AOE is a direct multiplier of the DC only.

I'd say it would be forest level. If that was focused into one attack by the character, it would have the joules necessary to destroy a forest. If it was done by an explosion, tanking that explosion at point-blank would be "forest level".

Even moreso, if someone was human sized inside that forest and they were tree level durability, they may not even be hurt by the forest wiping attack as the total force of all the AOE would simply be fractions upon fractions of that force acting upon the surface area of the human sized person.

Sure. We take that into account for our calculations, and if a character can only cause these effects over a large area and not focus it into a small one, we consider it Environmental Destruction, and don't say that it would hurt small characters.

Last example why simply using total energy in attack = AP is bad. You could have an attack with infinite range (infinite AOE) that if it came in contact with rock (so meteors or such) it would be stopped until the rock or below durable object moved. But in a vaccume, this attack has infinite range.. and therefore infinite energy.. so infinite AP? But would be stopped by rock?

This sounds like a very weird case which doesn't function like explosions, or anything that disperses energy in accordance with the inverse square law, would IRL, so we'd consider it an exception and wouldn't give it infinite AP.

 

[Zaelleaz]

oh man, may just be a difference in how we define things or take the definition then (which is fine lol). It's just weird for me to consider something that is forest level AP but can't destroy a single metal tree as i'm not talking about an explosion per se, simply the attack's aoe covers the forest at once for example but explosions can work too.

Sure. We take that into account for our calculations, and if a character can only cause these effects over a large area and not focus it into a small one, we consider it Environmental Destruction, and don't say that it would hurt small characters.

I guess for Yusuke vs Naruto then. Most of the naruto series high tier feats fall into what you're naming environmental destruction requireing massive AOE for the feats or to destroy what is being destroyed instead of say hulk using the AOE of his fist to destroy say a meteor where the AOE difference to the surface area of what's being destroyed is actually massive. Yusuke much like my hulk example utilizes actual AP feats?... I suppose is how I'd use your definition and naruto is moreso environmental destruction for his feats and his AP is very compromised in a fight.

 

[Wokistan]

"It's just weird for me to consider something that is forest level AP but can't destroy a single metal tree as i'm not talking about an explosion per se, simply the attack's aoe covers the forest at once "

This seems rather specific and it isn't what we're using for the standards. Idk if this is a common thing in anime, a medium I don't really know, but you wouldn't calculate that the wame way as an explosion.

 

[Agnaa]

It's just weird for me to consider something that is forest level AP but can't destroy a single metal tree as i'm not talking about an explosion per se, simply the attack's aoe covers the forest at once for example but explosions can work too.

It's just that that's not really how AoEs work, in most fiction and in real life. You don't take some magical destruction value and have it evenly distributed across the AoE, you have a lot of force at the center which gets exponentially lower as it expands.

I guess for Yusuke vs Naruto then. Most of the high tier feats fall into what you're naming environmental destruction requireing massive AOE for the feats or to destroy what is being destroyed instead of say hulk using the AOE of his fist to destroy say a meteor where the AOE difference to the surface area of what's being destroyed is actually massive.

I'm not familiar with YYH or Naruto, but I'd generally think that Naruto characters could use the same amount of energy in those large AoE attacks in their human-sized attacks. It's just energy either way, if they can use all that energy on a mountain we'd need a fairly good reason for why they can't put that into a punch.

But the discussions on the specifics of verses like these usually turn to shit, so if you go down that route imma probably dip.

 

[Zaelleaz]

"It's just weird for me to consider something that is forest level AP but can't destroy a single metal tree as i'm not talking about an explosion per se, simply the attack's aoe covers the forest at once "
This seems rather specific and it isn't what we're using for the standards. Idk if this is a common thing in anime, a medium I don't really know, but you wouldn't calculate that the wame way as an explosion.

Ya, if it's a different standard sure but not all AOE is an explosion and of course the DC of AOE extends past the center point of explosions. So say a character is a giant and could simultaneously crush 5 trees with their hand being as their hand is big enough to do this. This example would have the same problem for instance as a metal tree or whatever may instead simply peirce their hand or simply not be crushed (especially to the same level) and the AOE makes it such that someone who isn't big enough to take the full force of the hand wouldn't need to have durability to match their force to be fine (potentially) and this isn't an explosion.

 

[Wokistan]

It seems like there's a disconnect between your usage of attack potency and what it's defined as on the site.

 

[Wokistan]

So say a character is a giant and could simultaneously crush 5 trees with their hand being as their hand is big enough to do this.

You'd still need to, in total, output enough energy to do this. Try crushing an aluminum can. Then try it with two under your hand. It's more effort to do the latter.

This example would have the same problem for instance as a metal tree or whatever may instead simply peirce their hand or simply not be crushed (especially to the same level)

This would just mean that tree is more durable than a normal tree. In this case, at least 5 times as much.

someone who isn't big enough to take the full force of the hand wouldn't need to have durability to match their force to be fine (potentially)

This only really works with really soft hands.

 

[Agnaa]

Yeah that case is just different standards. It's pretty difficult to take that into account when we're trying to give hard numbers to tens of thousands of characters.

We used to have a few verses (Red vs Blue and Monogatari) take it into account, but it was really just used to get higher values for low surface area things like bullets and swords, so we removed it from them for consistency.

I hope you can enjoy using our site in spite of some differences in definitions!

 

[Zaelleaz]

It's just that that's not really how AoEs work, in most fiction and in real life. You don't take some magical destruction value and have it evenly distributed across the AoE, you have a lot of force at the center which gets exponentially lower as it expands.

Take toneri's moon splitting feat. He splits it with an energy beam that extends further out than the moon itself. Where's the center point? The AOE is still such that the length of the attack is literally longer than what it's cutting. I mean.. I think there are plenty of AOE feats that aren't explosion based and if you "are" calculating the AP based on the total force but saying the center is most powerful.. how does that make sense to take the "total" force then? Isn't there now a variable AP to apply to different parts of the explosion?

I'm not familiar with YYH or Naruto, but I'd generally think that Naruto characters could use the same amount of energy in those large AoE attacks in their human-sized attacks. It's just anyway either way, if they can use all that energy on a mountain we'd need a fairly good reason for why they can't put that into a punch.

For this specifically, it's simply that there really isn't much of anything to suggest they "can" actually convert that energy into smaller potent attacks and especially punches. It's their "techniques" that are X size with "some" being size changeable but nothing to suggest they aren't weaker for being smaller either. There really just doesn't seem to be anything to scale their massive AOE attacks to for smaller more compact attacks but this is just in relation to Yusuke vs Naruto.

But the discussions on the specifics of verses like these usually turn to shit, so if you go down that route imma probably dip.

Gotcha, you've been a great talk as is and have been pretty concise with your points so I appreciate it.

 

[Wokistan]

Toneri thing:

We calculate based off the effects of the attack, not the attack's size. If anything, being larger like that would need more energy. Take a look at lightning bolts. Raw energy going into them can be all the way up in tiers 8 or 7, but by the time they're at ground level almost all of that energy has dissipated and they're not making tier 8 or 7 sized impacts into the ground. If energy attacks behaved like that, popping the moon at range would need more energy into the attack total to compensate for the amount lost. I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that we say the center of his laser is stronger.

Yusuke and Naruto:

idk these two characters lol

 

[Zaelleaz]

Yeah that case is just different standards. It's pretty difficult to take that into account when we're trying to give hard numbers to tens of thousands of characters.
We used to have a few verses (Red vs Blue and Monogatari) take it into account, but it was really just used to get higher values for low surface area things like bullets and swords, so we removed it from them for consistency.

I hope you can enjoy using our site in spite of some differences in definitions!

Yea, i'll definitely be sticking around. This site so far with you 2 has been great. Been to plenty of sites to the past, was big into OBD.. i'm not a trouble maker in the slightest but I do seem to have some different standards/outlooks on what goes into a feat being impressive or not or to what degree.. which is fine. I am very inquisitive though so i'll just be here looking for good convos as they come.

 

[Zaelleaz]

Toneri thing:
We calculate based off the effects of the attack, not the attack's size. If anything, being larger like that would need more energy. Take a look at lightning bolts. Raw energy going into them can be all the way up in tiers 8 or 7, but by the time they're at ground level almost all of that energy has dissipated and they're not making tier 8 or 7 sized impacts into the ground. If energy attacks behaved like that, popping the moon at range would need more energy into the attack total to compensate for the amount lost. I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that we say the center of his laser is stronger.

Yusuke and Naruto:

idk these two characters lol

the beam is concentrated and constant and he moved his hand with it coming out of his hand such that it split the moon with his movements. I brought up the beam because it seemed like when I brought up AOE, explosions and their superior AP in the center was used for examples and explosions are far from the only means of AOE. As for more energy, that's my actual point in why total energy used doesn't accurately work.. imo and why I brought up the infinite AOE attack but shows how silly it'd be to say it's infinite AP.

Sounds like you mostly stick to comics but Yusuke (yuyuhakusho) and Naruto (naruto) are pretty good anime if you're into it.

 

[Wokistan]

I feel like it's flawed to use that infinite AoE thing as a standard though. It seems like a rather specific scenario with no real life analogue. If you want to say that Toneri's rapidly burning through the moon, there's a certain timeframe (I think it's a second) that we'll take energy from with continuous attacks to get an AP value. He seemed to pierce it pretty much instantly, so he wouldn't really be running afoul of that.

The thing about me saying with it needing more energy because lightning is that ultimately, the attack would be tiered from the effects it has.

I do read a bit of comics, but several of the verses I'm more involved with are on my userpage. Idk much anime in general.

 

[Agnaa]

Take toneri's moon splitting feat. He splits it with an energy beam that extends further out than the moon itself. Where's the center point?

Oh yeah, beam attacks like that are different, 100%, I just tend to think of AoE as sphere-esque stuff even tho that's kinda wrong. You gotta spread out in 3 dimensions for inverse square law to take effect like that.

Beams would technically get weaker, but not exponentially, and the most powerful point for this would be the source of the beam itself (his hand).

I mean.. I think there are plenty of AOE feats that aren't explosion based and if you "are" calculating the AP based on the total force but saying the center is most powerful.. how does that make sense to take the "total" force then? Isn't there now a variable AP to apply to different parts of the explosion?

We use the "total" force because that total force came from the center of the explosion. If that character casts the explosion directly on another character, or uses that energy for punches, that amount of energy would need to be tanked.

There is a variable AP to apply to different parts of the explosion. If they dodged away from the center of it they would take much less damage. We always use this in calcs, in fights it'd be better to use it but since it's all imagination it becomes a little harder to take into account.

 

[Zaelleaz]

I feel like it's flawed to use that infinite AoE thing as a standard though. It seems like a rather specific scenario with no real life analogue. If you want to say that Toneri's rapidly burning through the moon, there's a certain timeframe (I think it's a second) that we'll take energy from with continuous attacks to get an AP value. He seemed to pierce it pretty much instantly, so he wouldn't really be running afoul of that.
The thing about me saying with it needing more energy because lightning is that ultimately, the attack would be tiered from the effects it has.

I do read a bit of comics, but several of the verses I'm more involved with are on my userpage. Idk much anime in general.

Well, to be fair.. the infinite AOE isn't "my" standard as I don't value feats such that the total energy = the AP or that the "more" AOE, the "more" AP compared to less AOE. I see more AOE as more DC. It seems that saying forest level energy applied across a forest is 100% forest level AP or i'm sure you'd say planet level energy applied across a planet is planet level AP and so it's wierd you'd say an infinite level energy applied across an infinite amount of space ISN'T an infinite amount of AP. I actually think you "have" to agree an attack with infinite AOE has infinite AP even if it can't destroy through rock as in my example but wasn't worth pushing but i'm curios again. I think the example just highlights why that method doesn't actually work as well but is also why I was fine with leaving it at different standards/methods, etc.