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Yugioh Massive CRT Thread (Pt 2)

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The_2nd_Existential_Seed

The_2nd_Existential_Seed

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Before I can really do anything... I have to start with GX:

Dueling Energy:

  • Dueling is described to involve Dueling Energy
  • This glow around Johan and Judai is is the same energy we see in Viper's tank , which was designed to show how much dueling energy Judai has in comparison to others.
  • In-fact Dueling Strength is a force that is determined by how much effort someone puts into a duel and the strength of his deck ,for example
  • This proves thet the "Strongest Duelists" statements shouldn't be taken as just "being better at dueling" but it's a canonical energy source similar to Ki and "Power Levels" from DBZ in terms of in-verse utilization.
  • Also to prove it once again , it is soon after Judai sees a similar glow around Yugi that Judai proclaims him as the Strongest Duelist , and after looking at the God Cards and viewing their Dueling Energysays this, proving the "Duelist being strong" has to do with Dueling Energy.
  • Paradox was another case. Judai called him extremely strong because of Stardust being in his deck, meaning those who are powerful duelists in both GX and DMs has to do with the spiritual strength of the cards in their deck, not strategy or something outlandish such as that.
The nature of The Twleve Dimensions [As this determins the level of the Universe as either 3-A, Low 2-C, or perhaps even 2-C as it once was]:

Super Fusion (or Super Polymerization):

Yubel by Herself

Light of Destruction:

Satorious describes his power as this:

Scaling:

  • Neos was able to deflect an attack from Satorious [who was the conduit of the full Light of Destruction] who from the above when possessed by the Light is either at a Universal to Low Multiversal Level . He couldn't do it to Stardust Dragon , which was a Malefic [Corrupt] version... Meaning it scales to the original and thus S1 Signers.
  • Paragus consistently referred to Judai as being a gifted duelist but nowhere near as strong as the Battle City high level combatants [Kaiba , Yugi, Joey] , even after the incident with Satorious and with Yubel. Yubel called Yugi a significant threat and Yugi's Dueling Energy and Spiritual Deck trumps the aforementioned enemies from GX in terms of statements despite Super Polymerization and the Light Barrier being cards able to affect the Universe & the Twelve Dimensions. Judai outright called Yugi the strongest of all duelists and this was a repeated them throughout GX, meaning Judai never surpassed Yugi or even was close to reaching his level until the Final Graduation Duel.
  • The World of Darkness was canonically stated to be the polar opposite yet comparable of the Universe. Nightshroud embodied it yet was defeated by Judai yet again.
Basically the "whole Universe" being controlled by Super Polymerization , being able to destroy it, both Judai and Yubel being able to survive the Universes destruction both the Gentle Darkness and Light surviving the destruction of the Universe and it's recreating in numerous cycles [both Jaden and Satorious would scale seeing as they use the full extent of the Gentle Darkness & Light of Destruction respectfully] should be granted either Low 2-C or 2-C. I'm not arguing the rest for now, but this seems legitimate enough to grant the upgrade

Scaling Chain:

Orichalcos Scaling Chai:

  • The God Cards [Duelist Cup Arc] are Low 2-C themselves [scaling far above Judai and comparable to Yusei's Shooting Star or Quasar Dragon due to statements from 5Ds].... Yet were used by Dartz on the First Level of the Orichalcos to create the Restricted Form of Divine Serpent Geh
  • Within an fragment of the Orichalcos [considering it's a fragment makes scaling possible considering this is the Human World, Spirit World] , contains it's own "World of Memories" . This World of Memories implies "World" as Dartz described it doesn't mean Planets , but Rather Universe , including the Spirit World (2-C Feat for even a fragment of the Orichalcos due to connecting to the Main Universe & Spirit World , both even without the Twelve Dimensions are considered separate Universes w/ difference space-times earlier in the Orichalcos Arc ; Episode 177-178)
  • Restricted Divine Serpent Geh is at least 3x stronger than the God Cards
  • The Base Legendary Knight's Restrictive Dragon Forms oneshots Restricted Divine Serpent Geh
  • Dartz gains enough power to unlock the Second and Third Levels of the Orichalcos, fully reviving the Divine Serpent Geh
  • Yami Yugi after remembering a facet of his memories is able to repel the Third Level of the Orichalcos [His first Amp which again is permanent] , which the First Level is Superior to the God Cards. Dartz even said it was impossible for him to be capable of doing it..
  • Yes this is in the Sub Dartz calls his Divine Serpent Geh having "infinite power" , supported by the fact he states "nothing can stop them" despite knowing of the power of the God Cards and him using them in the first parts of the Orichalcos Arc, meaning it's likely infinitely superior to the God Cards. If this isn't enough even Yami Yugi in the sub called his Timeaus' power raising to infinity upon playing Knight of Destiny Timeaus [when Timeaus in the sub didn't have the Infinite ATK game mechanic], when the sub the God Cards were never referred to having such powers.
  • To prove this is consistent, a villain intended to replace the Dartz arc in Reshef of Destruction, Reshef was explicitly stated as infinitely stronger than before even when before it had the power of all the God Cards.... So yeah it is consistent even throughout other Media's alternate portrayals of the event.
  • The Great Leviathan is so strong at first Yami didn't even think it could be defeat [Despite having the ability to fuse them, letting us know it is far superior to Knight of Destiny
  • After gaining his new powers truly and unlocking the Full Powers of the Nameless Pharaoh after being motivated by his friends [NOT Atem... But the highest his strength can go without fully unlocking his memories or being in the World of Memories], his power creates the God Cards [NOT The World of Memories versions which are far superior]
  • These God Cards are at least infinitely superior to their previous selves and rival even the Knight of Destiny [they were even referred to as the Gods of Duel Monsters, meaning superior to any Duel Monsters played before this... Including Timeaus and Geh] , as they are each capable of damaging the Great Leviathan when Yami thought he couldn't be defeated or afffected, meaning each of them are superior to the Knight of Destiny.
  • All 3 of them together blast overpower the Great Leviathan... But...
  • They reveal that the True Form of the Great Leviathan is superior to all it's previous form [or at least comparable to it's physical body] s, and it directly attacks Yami. Using his new powers, albeit with great struggle, he is able to repel it. This proves the amp he got from this little adventure was permanent as otherwise he would've died.
So: Yami Yugi (Nameless Pharaoh's Full Power) > True Form Great Leviathan >>> Great Leviathan >> Nameless Pharaoh Empowered God Cards >> Knight of Destiny >>> Divine Serpent Geh [infinitely] > God Cards >= Shooting Star/Scar Red Nova/ Shooting Quasar >>> Stardust > Post-S4 Judai.

World of Memories Arc:

  • Yami Yugi was wielding the Full Power of the Nameless Pharaoh at the time, not Atem. His full powers can only summon one Egyptian God at once, and we see him brekaing his limits doing so despite having the full powers of the Nameless Pharaoh, hinting the World of Memories Arc Egyptian Gods surpass The Great Leviathan. This is consistent with how Bakura supposedly bested Dartz in the past despite him wielding The Great Leviathan. This is also evident by the fact he exerts so much energy to even effectively uses the Gods despite having no problem giving the God's Energy when fighting The Great Leviathan.
  • Diabound rivaled that of Slifer and Obelisk and was a threat to both.
  • The Blue Eyes is a rival to the Egyptian Gods and even surpasses them as a whole combined.
  • Zorc stomps all the Gods once he gets serious, fights on par with Blue-Eyes Ultimate Dragon [Who immensely surpasses his base]
  • Zorc's blast gets deflected by Atem and revives the Egyptian Gods.
  • Horakthy oneshots.Zorc.
Horakthy >> Atem > Zorc > Exodia = Blue Eyes Ultimate Dragon >>> Blue-Eyes White Dragon > The Egyptian Gods >>> The Nameless Pharaoh > True Form Great Leviathan >>> Great Leviathan >> Nameless Pharaoh Empowered God Cards >> Knight of Destiny >>> Divine Serpent Geh [infinitely] > God Cards >= Shooting Star/Scar Red Nova/ Shooting Quasar >>> Stardust > Post-S4 Judai.
 
Personally, from what I read, I think 2-C could be legit.

A point though the infinity statement it sounds like a hyperbole so a question are Dartz's Statements generally reliable for the wiki standard?
 
Awesome. As for Dartz, he is arrogant, but he isn't hyperbolic. Every point he made has been for a particular reason and even Yami confirmed in a cutscene his might was infinitely superior to his (prior to regaining some of his memories) , although finding thay confirmation will take a bit.
 
How Yami views the term definitely doesn't seem hyperbolic. He views it as the power of his own bonds empowered the monster to surpass Geh. The Infinite Power for Dartz represented the power of Darkness, which was confirmed by Yami so it wasn't purely game mechanics so much as an legitimate AP increase via representation.
 
It sounds like this is proposing using scaling to Reshef of Destruction, one of the video games.

Also, scaling the Knights of Destiny to Leviathan seems silly, IMHO. All 3 of them with an army of monsters failed to defeat Leviathan, & got sealed away. Dragon Timeaus failed 1 on 1 against the fraction of power that reawokened in the modern day in the Orichalcos Arc.

Timeaus under the effect of Multiply (Dub says 10,000) fails to damage Leviathan's physical form.

And even after Leviathan has its physical form destroyed by the Egyptian Gods & barely has any power from the Darkness in the hearts of people left, it STILL smacks away Knight Timeaus when he flies out of Atem's Duel Disk to attack it.

And the way they beat Geh in the duel involved using a finite loop on finite ATK values then fusing. I don't recall if the fusion had infinite ATK, but trying to beat infinity with finite starting values, multipliers & timeframes doesn't work.

TL;DR - The Knights of Destiny regularly do TERRIBLY against Leviathan, even its weaker forms, even in the climactic battle. I don't think they should scale.

Also, I don't recall Atem fighting off Leviathan's assault on himself, unless you mean when he had to manage the Darkness in his own Heart so Leviathan would have nothing left to power it.
 
The Dragons and Knight scales to the severely weakened Orichalcos Geh , who surpasses the Egyptians Gods prior to being reawakened by their memories. Even the lowest level of the Orichalcps can bind and affect the Egyptian Gods, whose superior to those affected by the upgrade, yet they can destroy the Third Level. They scale.

Dragon Timaeus did in fact overwhelm the Giant Eye or at the absolute least held it off , not Great Leviathan. I never stated they scale even remotely to Great Leviathan, not even once . What they scaled to was Geh.

It's (Great Leviathan) physical form was merely a vessel. They make it clear the true power of the Great Leviathan is the darkness we see after Leviathan gets destroyed , not that it got weaker upon destruction. No implication it got weaker aside from Atem defeating it [which was due to relying on his inner power, the same one that empowered the Gods to fefeat Levoathan so again not an anti-feat really]

The other stuff as mentioned was representation of the power of Darkness and bonds was infinite, not merely game mechanics. In fact, we plainly see game mechanics are used outside of the game in that entire season so the infinite ATK was meant to be literal even without the representation. Even if it wasn't , they needed to overpower the loop with the fusion, which meant it's fusion was immensely greater than what either Knight was capable of.
 
Didn't the destruction of the Great Leviathan physical form also involve the good thoughts and lights in the Hearts of everyone from the human & monster realms?

In any case, I don't have much to argue for regarding this. I'm not entirely opposed to the GX stuff, & am interested in looking over things. I'm also eager to see the scans for the Orichalcos related content, if you can.

Thanks for all your hard work so far.
 
Those helped the Pharaoh awaken the power he had deep within as the Nameless Pharaoh. It generally isn't an amp.

Fair enough judgement. I will supply it tommorow morning.

No problem.
 
Bump. Okay, I know I teased you guys about the Orichalcos stuff. But, the infinite power things are merely secondary . We need this massive tier change [which would affect Duel Monsters - 5Ds] accepted by mods before we go into the Orichalcos "infinitely above baseline" scaling. I have one mods approval, but for such a change I'm certain I need at least one more.
 
Bump:

Dueling Energy:

  • Dueling is described to involve Dueling Energy
  • This glow around Johan and Judai is is the same energy we see in Viper's tank , which was designed to show how much dueling energy Judai has in comparison to others.
  • In-fact Dueling Strength is a force that is determined by how much effort someone puts into a duel and the strength of his deck ,for example
  • This proves thet the "Strongest Duelists" statements shouldn't be taken as just "being better at dueling" but it's a canonical energy source similar to Ki and "Power Levels" from DBZ in terms of in-verse utilization.
  • Also to prove it once again , it is soon after Judai sees a similar glow around Yugi that Judai proclaims him as the Strongest Duelist , and after looking at the God Cards and viewing their Dueling Energysays this, proving the "Duelist being strong" has to do with Dueling Energy.
  • Paradox was another case. Judai called him extremely strong because of Stardust being in his deck, meaning those who are powerful duelists in both GX and DMs has to do with the spiritual strength of the cards in their deck, not strategy or something outlandish such as that.
The nature of The Twleve Dimensions / Upgrade [As this determins the level of the Universe as either 3-A, Low 2-C, or perhaps even 2-C as it once was]:

Super Fusion (or Super Polymerization):

Yubel by Herself

Light of Destruction:

Satorious describes his power as this:

 
I'm not too familiar with Yu-Gi-Oh, but I recall SomeBodyData and Kukui rejecting tier 2 Yu-Gi-Oh. So it might be better to ask them.
 
Both of those was at least 2-3 years prior to now with lack of information that I now have. Kukui recently approved it in a previous thread not too long ago . Data I haven't been able to contact and has left the wikia inactive for a long period of time and most of his points have direct counters to them in this thread and scans I have at the ready so his previous points aren't valid anymore.
 
SomenbodyData is still around. Though, looking at the thread; if the translations are accurate, then if they're literally stated to be Universes. Then I suppose it's fine.
 
@Fox Indeed he would when this goes through if Yugi/Yami can summon his monsters.

@Medeus These translations come directly from the Japanese Sub variant of the show, which directly state they are Universes..Now, with all his support in favor of the upgrade, now is my main question: What do we do from here ? Can this be applied now ?
 
So with only 2 agreements you decided to unlock the profiles?... @Elizhaa I don't wanna cause any trouble but you're going to have to revert them before any other admin or higher staff sees that because that was a big change without having any discussion ngl that does not look good.

@2nd Seed will be discussing your feats shortly, I hope you don't mind if I don't bring scans as I don't exactly have the same amount of time as you had when creating this, but you already know what I'll be presenting since you've seen them before.

But you may have accidently proved something that we were speculating on the last thread that renders most of the GX feats solidly at the current tiering, if not lower.
 
Dueling Energy:

So you proved dueling energy comes from the strength of the monsters in the deck and the duelist's effort (Not skill apparently, which you call outlandish in a card game show lmao)

So either we scale all duelists who have even managed to make any protag flinch (2-C Weevil and child who beat bandit) or the more likely answer is that it shows how good a duelist is at... dueling. Not AP or Speed or Durability, but Dueling.

The Nature of the 12 Dimensions:

As you know and I know the dimensions were shown to physically exist in the universe. This is not up to debate, we literally see Neo Space orbiting Jupiter and are told this is the case.

However, this time you have enough evidence to suggest something else, that these are basically dimensions ala the Hyperbolic Time Chamber and Rumors' Barriers. Unqualified like the former and visible like the later.

What I'm saying is that because the feats are now like the Chamber, you have made what could have been argued as 5-A with Super Poly, is now At least 5-B.

Super Poly:

  • Control =/= AP, less we have 3-C Frieza.
  • "Big explosion" =/= low 2-C.
Yubel:

  • Without context. She is talking about Super Poly, hence why she is using Super Poly in the first place.
  • Durability yes arguably, AP no. As a matter of fact, no at all, because as you put it they were fodder, yet would have been the only survivors? I mentioned this in the other thread, but don't remember the scans or reasoning, but we agreed that it was because the card was meant to leave them specifically alive. Especially considering that even as you mentioned, it worked when used upon themselves without killing them and without an explosion.
Gentle Darkness/ Light of Destruction / Trying to pretend Zexal never happened:

We know that Number 100: Numeron Drago created the universe, and only once, and could no longer do so afterwards. So right off the bat the only interpenetration left is life wipe, but lemme argue these one at a time anyways.

 
I don't have the time to accurately piece this together right now [Won't have a fully fleshed response until later today or tomorrow morning] but I heavily disagree , and somewhat agree, on at least a few of your points. I was prepared for Neos Space and will properly discuss it, and as while I agree with Neos Space and the Main Universe being a part of the same Universe, I don't agree with all dimensions sharing the same physical space. In fact, the twelve dimensions is purely second hand evidence. I'm mainly using the Main Universe and Spirit World as the main pieces for the upgrade, not necessarily the twelve dimensions. If it is approved it will be far easier, but it was never my main focus.

The only one I outright completely disagree with is using ZEXAL as any form of rebuttal for this revision , because it's cosmology severely contradicts the very idea of it being connected to the original 3 series.
 
Nah its definitely canon. It only contradicts it if you assume destruction instead of life wipe. Whether or not it shares physical space doesn't even matter to the argument at hand, the implication and what's shown is what matters is the size and it is shown to be less than that.

Also, GX, anime Yu-Gi-Oh, and 5Ds all have radically different and contradictory Spirit Worlds, so no, this time you're not going to get to argue something when its convenientally contradictory. You could make an argument that GX's and 5Ds cosmology don't even fit with the original series either, particularily 5D's.

If you're going to argue Spirit World and Main Universe as pieces for the main argument, go ahead, but notice how I've already pointed out that they interpretations of it across the franchise are contradictory. Using your own logic to stay consistent, you'd have to argue within each series without combining evidence.

We've had this discussion several times over the past years, at this point. People have literally come and gone from vsbattles itself in this time period. ProfessorKukui being one of them.

I'm trying to be fair and don't complain to higher staff at this point to just ban the discussion outright but after what happened today, you guys will be lucky if another admin doesn't get you or Elizhaa in trouble for revising an entire verse to tier 2 without engaging in debate.
 
I find this interesting. I do agree that this upgrade happened way too quickly ( for comparison, the Xenoblade upgrades took weeks to agree on with much debate ). While YGO has shown Universal feats before ( Arc-V and Duel Links for example ) I agree with SD.
 
Alright then. I'll take the full blame , some mod revise them back to Tier 5, and I'll never mention it or even this verse again. Just close this thread, because if this single thread can cause people to get theoretically banned because of something I asked to do then I want no part in this verse anymore. If I get banned for it, then so be it. But don't bring Elizhaa into it. It's my fault abyways for beating a dead horse.
 
I'm also not saying you need to drop discussing Yu-Gi-Oh entirely. But every time, its season 4, GX's Darkness and Yubel, or Zexal. Imagine what CRTs you / we could have gotten accepted, had you literally just changed the topic. There's probably a bunch of missing abilities for Yugi's Puzzle from the anime alone.

Well not banned, just in trouble if it makes you feel better. For you it would have probably been getting banned from the topic, for her probably getting demoted or a slap on the wrist, we don't have standards set for 'accidental abuse of power'.
 
@Seed, you're a well behaved user here. And it's not a bad thing to misunderstand. There is another user infamous for getting banned, but not because of Tier 2 Yu-Gi-Oh, but only because of her behavior.

You did nothing overly wrong here.
 
I asked Ant month ago if I could unlock thread for CRT assuming there is an appropriate approval from the relevant staff. I thought Medeus was this staff here from his earlier comment. If more inputs were needed, my bad; I will reverse the changes.
 
Maybe there was an issue with communication, but that only applies for small or quality of life changes. For a jump this huge for an already historically chaotic series would require quite a few staff, not to mention regular members.
 
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