Yu-Gi-Oh (Manga) CRT: Ability additions and Possible Speed upgrades

[SagaTheLegend]

F

 

[Darksmash]

this seems fine to me

 

[Zencha9]

seems fine the Millenium Items should also have soul manip along with fire manip about diabound he would just get the garou treatment no need for 5 keys
i don't know why the time manip is limited

 

[Imaginym]

Currently, no objections from me.
@Zencha9 : I'd presume because it only works in the Memory World?

 

[Zencha9]

Memory World is still a shadow game

 

[Imaginym]

But the players of the Shadow Game (Atem & Bakura at the table.) didn't seem to have time stopped for them outside of the game, & I'd presume the same was true for the rest of the world. The time stop affects things in Memory World, not outside of it.

 

[Zencha9]

the game didn't include the outside world because bakura's whole goal is to affect the outside world

 

[Imaginym]

the game didn't include the outside world because bakura's whole goal is to affect the outside world

But that still shows that the scope of the time manipulation doesn't include the outside world, right?

 

[Zencha9]

But that still shows that the scope of the time manipulation doesn't include the outside world, right?

it can affect the outside world if the shadow game is in the outside world

 

[Imaginym]

it can affect the outside world if the shadow game is in the outside world

But the Shadow Game is being played from the outside world! Yugi & Bakura both at a table, playing their shadow game, & neither of them is stopped nor rewound by that happening to the time in their game.
As for affecting the outside world, I believe that was a consequence of history being changed. But we don't see the present day have its time stop, AFAIK & we don't see the players affected. I'd think if Bakura could time manip the Yugi like that, he would have.

 

[Zencha9]

But the Shadow Game is being played from the outside world! Yugi & Bakura both at a table, playing their shadow game, & neither of them is stopped nor rewound by that happening to the time in their game.
As for affecting the outside world, I believe that was a consequence of history being changed. But we don't see the present day have its time stop, AFAIK & we don't see the players affected. I'd think if Bakura could time manip the Yugi like that, he would have.

yes bakura states that the time stop doesn't affect the main players it's the reason why hasan was able to move and save yugi(in the Memory World) because he was not a player in the shadow game

 

[Imaginym]

yes bakura states that the time stop doesn't affect the main players it's the reason why hassan was able to move and save yugi(in the Memory World) because he was not a player in the shadow game

Okay, so it affects Memory World & doesn't affect the players. But do we see evidence of the time stop affecting anything OTHER than the Memory World?

 

[Zencha9]

Okay, so it affects Memory World & doesn't affect the players. But do we see evidence of the time stop affecting anything OTHER than the Memory World?

no because that was the only time he used it

 

[Zencha9]

also bakura wouldn't kill yugi because he knows he's important for him to achieve his goals

 

[Imaginym]

no because that was the only time he used it

So it doesn't sound like there's reason to assume it can affect outside of Memory World if we don't see evidence it can affect outside of Memory World.

also bakura wouldn't kill yugi because he knows he's important to achive his goals

Fair but there's still plenty of ways he probably could've exploited Time Manip affecting things outside of the Real World if it worked that way.

 

[Zencha9]

So it doesn't sound like there's reason to assume it can affect outside of Memory World if we don't see evidence it can affect outside of Memory World.

Fair but there's still plenty of ways he probably could've exploited Time Manip affecting things outside of the Real World if it worked that way.

1- but the Memory World in itself is a shadow game so he should be able to use it in other shadow games
2-yes there's alot of ways he could've used time manip But there's no reason for him to use it because Bakura wasn't really serious up until the memeory world arc started he's just setting up to the final shadow game(the final shadow game is the memory world arc it was foreshadowed in duelist kingdoom when bakura sealed yugi's friend he says that this is the set up for the final shadow game ) he's also setting up by putting parts of his soul in others and saving small yugi's multiple times (against duke and when his god cards got stolen he gave them back to yugi) even when he got erased by marik he really didn't care and says the he will resurrect and kill everyone so he really doesn't give a shit up until the memory arc
edit:gotta go for a few minutes
edit2:i'm back feel free to ask me any questions

 

[Imaginym]

1- but the Memory World in itself is a shadow game so he should be able to use it in other shadow games
2-yes there's alot of ways he could've used time manip But there's no reason for him to use it because Bakura wasn't really serious up until the memeory world arc started he's just setting up to the final shadow game(the final shadow game is the memory world arc it was foreshadowed in duelist kingdoom when bakura sealed yugi's friend he says that this is the set up for the final shadow game ) he's also setting up by putting parts of his soul in others and saving small yugi's multiple times (against duke and when his god cards got stolen he gave them back to yugi) even when he got erased by marik he really didn't care and says the he will resurrect and kill everyone so he really doesn't give a shit up until the memory arc
edit:gotta go for a few minutes
edit2:i'm back feel free to ask me any questions

1 - But unlike other Shadow Games, the Memory World's gameplay happens in a world separate from the players' worlds. Or at least, with a separate flow of time.
2. I suppose he did demonstrate motive to finish things via the Final Shadow Game. But wasn't that because it gave him opportunities to access the resources of the past?

 

[Zencha9]

1 - But unlike other Shadow Games, the Memory World's gameplay happens in a world separate from the players' worlds. Or at least, with a separate flow of time.
2. I suppose he did demonstrate motive to finish things via the Final Shadow Game. But wasn't that because it gave him opportunities to access the resources of the past?

1-first that was due to the millennium puzzle recreating the past and it's not the only time the shadow game takes a place in another setting/place bakura and atem's first shadow game was like that where both game masters(atem and yugi) control characters in another world and while it's not specified how big the world is and if the world has a time-space continuum it's still similar to the final shadow game
also yugi's shadow game with shadi (when shadi was searching for yugi's soul room) was taking place in another dimension where time is stopped so i don't see why bakura can't use his hax in other shadow games like his his time manip when he already has sealing
2-no that was because he wanted too free himself/resurrect Zorc and in order to do that he needs the atem's name the the six millennium Items

 

[Imaginym]

1-first that was due to the millennium puzzle recreating the past and it's not the only time the shadow game takes a place in another setting/place bakura and atem's first shadow game was like that where both game masters(atem and yugi) control characters in another world and while it's specified how big the world is and if the world has a time-space continuum it's still similar to the final shadow game
also yugi's shadow game with shadi (when shadi was searching for yugi's soul room) was taking place in another dimension where time is stopped so i don't see why bakura can't use his hax in other shadow games like his his time manip when he already has sealing
2-no that was because he wanted too free himself/resurrect Zorc and in order to do that he needs the atem's name the the six millennium Items

I don't deny that Shadow Games have created other worlds/realities.
The point of saying the Final Shadow Game's time is separate from the "real" world & the power affected the world in the Shadow Game, the Memory World, not the Real World; Ergo, there isn't evidence the time manip Bakura did affects outside of Memory World, since when he uses it, we don't see the real world be affected.

Anyway, the ability was proposed for Zorc.
"Limited Time Manipulation (While in the Memory World, Zorc has the ability to control time, allowing him to stop or rewind it)" & Bakura's use of it was through the hourglasses, & he even specifies it's "3 times per game" & I'm pretty sure he means just in this final Shadow Game, for one because that's more obvious, & he hasn't used it before, despite the potential uses of time manip in other Shadow Games.
He also specifies it's "a power borrowed from the sleeping god", which in combination with the explicitly limited use, which is via items, tells us that Bakura normally DOESN'T have this borrowed power!

So it definitely is limited for Bakura. Although I suppose Zorc MIGHT have it less limited, but isn't it the case that we never saw him use his Time Manipulation in the real world, as opposed to the Memory World?

 

[Zencha9]

i'm not saying that bakura could just whip out time manip in the outside world i'm just saying he could do it in a shadow game the entire memory world was a shadow game the real world was not and was not affected by a shadow game
also him not using time manip is a character flaw
we can say the same thing with sealing why didn't bakura use it in X senario the same thing could be said to marik's stuff why didn't he just mind hax everyone instead of dueling them and torturing them it's a character flaw
bakura talking about the sleeping god is just him refering to Zorc because he's sealed away
Zorc should have full on Time manip because it originally came from him i'm not sure about bakura and the limited stuff because i thought limited is used for thing that don't work fully

 

[Imaginym]

i'm not saying that bakura could just whip out time manip in the outside world i'm just saying he could do it in a shadow game the entire memory world was a shadow game the real world was not and was not affected by a shadow game
also him not using time manip is a character flaw
we can say the same thing with sealing why didn't bakura use it in X senario the same thing could be said to marik's stuff why didn't he just mind hax everyone instead of dueling them and torturing them it's a character flaw
bakura talking about the sleeping god is just him refering to Zorc because he's sealed away
Zorc should have full on Time manip because it originally came from him i'm not sure about bakura and the limited stuff because i thought limited is used for thing that don't work fully

But we've only seen Bakura do it with the hourglasses, & he refers to it as a borrowed power. (Not to mention the 3 per game useage limit supporting that it's limited in use.) Given that he had to borrow it, implying he only has it for a limited time or in a limited capacity, & he needed items to do so when he did, it very much seems to me like something he wasn't able to use in other Shadow Games.
So I doubt he can use it in other Shadow Games, ESPECIALLY not without contacting Zorc if he has to "borrow" the power!
I agree Zorc should have time manipulation, but I suppose it's unclear if it should be limited or not, since we don't know if he was able to affect outside of the memory world with it. Limitation of the ability's useage, or just its range?

 

[SagaTheLegend]

Time manip I put as limited because Zorc said he could manipulate time in this "playback of the Pharaoh's memories". That is why it doesn't seem like a regular ability he can use outside of the memory world.

I will add Soul Manipulation to the post. And maybe just giving the current rating of the Egyptian Gods to Diabound can be good either than creating a lot more keys tbf.

 

[Imaginym]

@SagaTheLegend : Ah. Thank you for the clarification! Was that Zorc speaking through him in that instance?

 

[SagaTheLegend]

@SagaTheLegend : Ah. Thank you for the clarification! Was that Zorc speaking through him in that instance?

Yes, see in this scan for example.

 

[Zencha9]

@Imaginym it's a borrowed power from Zorc also when did he say that he needed the millenum items in order to timp stop/rewind ?
@SagaTheLegend he still didn't specfiy that he can only do it in his memories

 

[SagaTheLegend]

@Imaginym it's a borrowed power from Zorc also when did he say that he needed the millenum items in order to timp stop/rewind ?
@SagaTheLegend he still didn't specfiy that he can only do it in his memories

He never stated it was power he could use outside of the Millenium World either, but he did state specifically that it was ther power to control time in the playback of the pharaoh's memories and it didn't affect characters who weren't part of the Memory World to begin with so it seems pretty clear to me its something he can only use inside the Memory World.

 

[Imaginym]

@Imaginym it's a borrowed power from Zorc also when did he say that he needed the millenum items in order to timp stop/rewind ?
@SagaTheLegend he still didn't specfiy that he can only do it in his memories

Indeed, it is a borrowed power. I didn't say he needed the Milennium Items, I said he needed the HOURGLASSES.


"I just placed the SECOND hourglass on its side to activate the ability to STOP time..." "Do you remember when I turned back time to stop you from meeting your friends? That was Zorc's power as well!"


"Because of THIS!" "An hour-glass?!" "Like you, I have a special ability! I can use it three times per game... Each hour-glass represents one use! I have the POWER TO CONTROL TIME! A power borrowed from the sleeping god!" "One of Zorc's powers...!""

The power is borrowed from Zorc, & tied to the hourglasses. He only uses this power in this Shadow Game, with this ruleset, after help from Zorc, & he still at least appears to have to operate them to use the powers. (Turning it on its side. He states he himself did that, as opposed to it happening automatically to signify the ability's use.)
Also, what SagaTheLegend said.

 

[Zencha9]

@Imaginym jotaro still has time stop for a few seconds and it's still not limited it should specified that bakura can only time stop/rewind an a X amount of times but i don't think that would give him limited
@SagaTheLegend yes but the memory world is still a shadow game yugi's friends still go back to where they came from/started so they are affected by the time rewind and the time powers is from a sealed zorc
Zorc doesn't fully revive until much later in the story so bakura should still be able to use his power

 

[Imaginym]

@Imaginym jotaro still has time stop for a few seconds and it's still not limited it should specified that bakura can only time stop/rewind an a X amount of times but i don't think that would give him limited
@SagaTheLegend yes but the memory world is still a shadow game yugi's friends still go back to where they came from/started so they are affected by the time rewind and the time powers is from a sealed zorc
Zorc doesn't fully revive until much later in the story so bakura should still be able to use his power

Jotaro doesn't need to contact a being he normally doesn't have contact with, & doesn't have to involve an item to use his power, & again, it was stated by Zorc he could use the power in the "playback of the Pharaoh's memories", implying he couldn't use it otherwise.
Also, how do we know Bakura can freely borrow Zorc's powers if he didn't before & when he did, it was for a game involving a world MADE in large part, from Zorc's memories?

Also, what are you saying with your response to Saga? That it was said the time manip doesn't work on those not originally from the Memory World, but then we see evidence Yugi's friends were affected?

 

[SagaTheLegend]

@Imaginym jotaro still has time stop for a few seconds and it's still not limited it should specified that bakura can only time stop/rewind an a X amount of times but i don't think that would give him limited
@SagaTheLegend yes but the memory world is still a shadow game yugi's friends still go back to where they came from/started so they are affected by the time rewind and the time powers is from a sealed zorc
Zorc doesn't fully revive until much later in the story so bakura should still be able to use his power

Yugi's friends were indeed affected by the time rewind to some extent but weren't affected by the time stop at all even after Zorc was revived.
I am arguing "limited" because there's little to no evidence it can affect the outside world.

 

[Zencha9]

@Imaginym not sure if using an item calls for limited but if him using zorc's power is considered limited then sure i'm fine with that
also him saying "in this playback of the Pharaoh's memories" does not really say that he can only use it in the memory world also it was originally Zorc's power how could he have a power that only works in a certain scenario in the future ? it would make so many contradictions if his power only works in the world of memories
@SagaTheLegend yeah right they didin't get affected by the time stop
i am also arguing that it can affect the real world if it's in a shadow game because the whole memory arc is a shadow game

 

[SagaTheLegend]

@Imaginym not sure if using an item calls for limited but if him using zorc's power is considered limited then sure i'm fine with that
also him saying "in this playback of the Pharaoh's memories" does not really say that he can only use it in the memory world also it was originally Zorc's power how could he have a power that only works in a certain scenario in the future ? it would make so many contradictions if his power only works in the world of memories
@SagaTheLegend yeah right they didin't get affected by the time stop
i am also arguing that it can affect the real world if it's in a shadow game because the whole memory arc is a shadow game

Well the final arc is a shadow game but it is an special one (The Ultimate Shadow Game, which is clearly portrayed differently from just a regular Shadow Game or the special one played by two millenium item wielders). It wouldn't really scale outside of it.

I don't see any contradictions of Zorc not being able to use it in the outside world at all.

 

[Zencha9]

the contradictions is how does he have a power that only works in the future when he was in ancient egypt

 

[Imaginym]

@Imaginym not sure if using an item calls for limited but if him using zorc's power is considered limited then sure i'm fine with that
also him saying "in this playback of the Pharaoh's memories" does not really say that he can only use it in the memory world also it was originally Zorc's power how could he have a power that only works in a certain scenario in the future ? it would make so many contradictions if his power only works in the world of memories
@SagaTheLegend yeah right they didin't get affected by the time stop
i am also arguing that it can affect the real world if it's in a shadow game because the whole memory arc is a shadow game

When were we given evidence Zorc had access to time manipulation prior to or outside of the World of Memories?
& saying he has the power in the playback of the Pharoah's memories implies he only has that power there, since he specifies being in this location in regards to using the power.

 

[Zencha9]

wait i assumed zorc stopped time in the past because how could a KAless aknadin revive zorc without stopping time ? (because iirc the time reset made everything go back the way it was 3,000 years ago)

 

[Imaginym]

I don't remember the manga exactly. Why would he need time stop to revive Zorc? To make things as they were 3,000 years ago?

 

[SagaTheLegend]

wait i assumed zorc stopped time in the past because how could a KAless aknadin revive zorc without stopping time ? (because iirc the time reset made everything go back the way it was 3,000 years ago)

Well the Memory World is based on the truth with minor changes, but in the original timeline Priest Seto joined Akhenaden that could be why he managed to revive Zorc. We don't know how exactly events differed back then.

Zorc couldn't be possibly have time stopped either because he was sealed, the time stop in the Memory World was activated by Bakura in the outside world using his hourglass.

If Zorc had really activated time stop back then Yami would have been killed instead of sealing Zorc as there would no Hasan to protect him while Time is stopped unlike in the Memory World.

 

[Zencha9]

i think it's unlikely that seto joins with Akhenaden because up to this point the history is still the same i don't know why he would change his mind but yeah it's unkown how the events differed
that's actually a good point yami would've been killed if zorc actually had it in the past

 

[Cervical-shifter]

bump.

 

[SagaTheLegend]

Well is there anything more to discuss? If not, I should probably tag the mods or something to close and apply this. But wait a little more.