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Yhwach's Power Nullification

"Evidence" you talk of burden of proof yet nothing in Yhwach's description of the almighty says anything about something having to be physically visible. The proof is in what he says. It's not our fault you can't understand what he is saying. Actually, I personally think you do, but as I said earlier trying to nitpick so you can give him a dumb weakness that makes no sense.

What is so hard? He has seen that power in the future. So he knows what it is capable of. That's literally what he means. Stop this nonsense holy shit, it's as simple as that. He doesn't mean, uhh it's physically visible so I null. Ask yourself does that makes sense??????????? No.

Let me tell you what you are doing, you are failing at comprehending what he is saying, you are ignoring common sense, and lore. Stop it. Again ask kubo or something. I'm sorry you have to be spoon fed
 
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>"Evidence" you talk of burden of proof yet nothing in Yhwach's description of the almighty says anything about something having to be physically visible. The proof is in what he says.

The fact that he has to see the power to then understand it and then negate it literally in itself implies he needs to physically visibly see it. So yes, its your burden of proof to prove even invisible powers can be seen by him.

>Actually, I personally thing you do, but as I said earlier trying to nitpick so you can give him a dumb weakness that makes no sense.

Im not even pushing to give any weakness to him actually. All im asking for is evidence to prove he can do so. But I will push for it if said evidence never comes.

>What is so hard? He has seen that power in the future. So he knows what it is capable of. That's literally what he means.

And again, you need to give evidence that this applies to powers that cant be visibly seen. Like for instance, a time stop. Time has no visible form to it like fire manipulation or energy blasts do, so you need to prove Yhwach can see a power that has no visible form to it from the future.

> He doesn't mean, uhh it's physically visible so I null. Aka yourself does that makes sense??????????? No.

How would it not make sense? You can't see something that has no form to it. So let me ask you this.

Say Yhwach was to see someone use time stop to freeze time in the future. Again, time has no physical form to it, you cant literally "see time". So how would Yhwach be able to know its a time stop to then understand it and then negate it?

This is what im talking about. If he has to see a power to negate it, then what evidence is there that this applies to powers that cant be seen?
 
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Putting jokes aside, my points still stand.

Majority of the evidence of Yhwach seeing invisible powers is not actual evidence. Sternritter powers? They're Yhwach's powers, he doesnt need to see his ow powers in order to understand them (plus, since theyre his own powers, he wouldnt even need to negate them; they'd already be on his side). Seeing Shinigami? Also not evidence since Shinigami cannot use their invisiblity outside of the living world, a world entirely made of Kishi (physical matter) and people with low-spiritual awareness that cannot see spirits. Being within the Soul Society or Hueco Mundo, worlds that are entirely made up of Reishi (spiritual matter) make their invisibility unusuable in those worlds. And Yhwach has never used the Almighty in the living world, much less to negate powers.

The only saving grace you guys have here is Yhwach's statement of "I can know everything that I see". "everyting that I see" seems to be having its context twisted up. If Yhwach has to see something to know it, and then know it to negate it, then thats only further implying he needs to visibly see the power being used in the future he's observing and that if he cant see it, he cant understand it. Your argument is making "everything that I see" being equaled to "I see everything" whether something is visible or not and we have 0 evidence of the latter being the case.
 
You're mistake is implying something needs to be physically seen to be understood. You ignore the effects a power can have and only focus on what is visible physically. Yhwach is viewing the future as a spectator, so he is seeing what is happening in those futures. It doesn't matter if it's "invisible". Its not about that. It's about what that power does and the effect it has. This is how he understands it by viewing the future. This is why the balance does not work. If he says "I have seen that power" it means he saw a future where it was used, what it does, how it works, and the effects it has. By your logic air bending beats Yhwach. It has nothing to do with the physically visible and the all to do with the future the power is used in that he sees. He understand it cause he seen the future where it was used. Stop focusing on the "power" and focus on the futures he sees. Everytime he says see, gaze, Vision he is talking about the future. For some reason you are ignorant to this.

If that does not help you, nothing will.
 
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Yhwach was able to absorb the Heart of the Soul King, from a distance, whose power was conceptual in nature.

I don't think you ever responded to the idea of how he affected Gerard Valkyrie with The Almighty, truth be told, considering how non-physical literally everything about his power is, Kukui; just a quick aside on some powerful evidence that fits your criterion.
 
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Without feats of being able to see invisible abilities, its not really a mistake. Im going off of what the series has given us, not what twisted up context from a single character statement gives us.

>It doesn't matter if it's "invisible". Its not about that. It's about what that power does and the effect it has. This is how he understands it by viewing the future.

Where in Yhwach's statement is any of this even remotely implied? Its like you said, Yhwach is spectating the future as a spectator to see what happens inside of those futures. He can only understand a power by actually seeing it, Yhwach himself says this flat out.

If im reading this right, your saying that Yhwach only needs to see the event as a whole taking place instead of the specific power itself being visibly used. Which there is absolutely no evidence from Yhwach's statement that supports this.

>The balance

Which is a power of Yhwachs that he gave to Uryu.....for the 5th time. So again, this is not evidence.

>If he says "I have seen that power" it means he saw a future where it was used, what it does, how it works, and the effects it has.

Which he could only see in the first place if the power itself has a visible form to it. Like fire manipulation being used and shown to burn someone. Nothing implies Yhwach only needs to see the event itself take place as thats pushing the capabilities of his sight to levels that he has never been depicted in having.

>By your logic air bending beats Yhwach.

Besides bending being no where remotely close enough to even make Yhwach flinch (if you were talking about Avatar as an example), Air and Wind Manipulation isnt invisible. It becomes clearly visible when wind is being manipulated to form wind blasts, tornadoes, etc. So this isnt a good example.

>It has nothing to do with the physically visible and the all to do with the future the power is used in that he sees. He understand it cause he seen the future where it was used

And if he sees no power being visibly used, like time hax for example, then what is he seeing? How will he understand it? Again, Yhwachs statement doesnt prove Yhwach only needs to see the entire event taking place as opposed to needing to see the power itself being visible performed in the future.
 
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Peter "Quicksilver" Maximoff said:
This is one giant nitpick tbh.
There's nothing nitpicky about this. This is twisting the context of one. single. character statement to assume Yhwach is able to see powers in any form in the future, regardless of whether or not they are visible or invisible ones. And his own character statement doesnt support this.

If he needs to see them, then that takes away from him seeing invisible powers.
 
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Here is the professor logic in a nutshell.

"Ichigo can't use Gran Rey Cero, Getsuga Jushisho in The World of the Living because he only used it on Soul Society."

Almighty Yhwach was using Almighty in the World of the Living in the Bazz-B flashback 1,000 years ago to find Jugram.

This discussion is pointless since by default the battlefield will get equalized, so Yhwach could be seen by others and Yhwach can fight with 100% of his powers in an environment like Hueco Mundo or Soul Society where there's enough Reishi for them to fight at their 100%.
 
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Even if he hasn't nullified abilities in which the cause isn't visible for example telekinesis.

Lorewise he can. All the evidence for lorewise is above.

End of.
 
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>You mean a verse whos invisiblity is only useful in one world. The living world. Somewhere Yhwach has never used the Almighty in to null powers. Had he done that, I would understand this point.

This is dumb, everyone in bleach can see invisble spirit scale from the fact that everyone who has reiatsu above average can see invisible spirit in the human world, nevermind that everyone who have decent control of their reiatsu can see stuff wihout relying on their eyes
 
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No, they explicitly do not; Yammy using Gonzui could outright kill every single 'normal' human in the Living World due to their lack of any notable reiatsu, whereas everyone who had some was able to resist the soul suck

Edit: just now realizing you asked in 'SS'; Soul Society doesn't have humans?
 
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Omimi said:
do all normal human in SS has reiatsu above average ?
Their invisibility doesn't work in SS and hueco mundo where literally everyone and everything else is made from reishi. But it will work in place where stuff is made from normal matter, they will become invisible in those worlds for everyone except for ppl who have reiatsu above average.
 
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basically you asking:

>Why ghost is not invisble to other ghost?

Because guess what, reishi is spiritual matter. You pretty much need to become a spirit so you can enter SS.
 
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This is dumb.

Anyone that goes against Yhwach that is not invisible by default and uses invisibility will do nothing.

Everyone in Bleach that has a bit of reiatsu can see invisible beings and attacks.

Professor's thread point would make sense if Yhwach goes against an invisible opponent by default and then uses invisibility again and that cannot be seen by people who can already see invisible people.

OP is asking if Yhwach has canceled abilities from already invisible users who can become invisible x2. Because the spiritual world is not visible to humans, therefore, no one in Soul Society is invisible because everyone has the ability to see each other.
 
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MachTwo said:
basically you asking:

>Why ghost is not invisble to other ghost?

Because guess what, reishi is spiritual matter. You pretty much need to become a spirit so you can enter SS.
No. He is asking if Ghost who are already invisible from the living world can turn even more invisible that ghost can't even see them. Lmao
 
For one, the toxicity in this thread is rather overwhelming. Kindly tone it all the way down

Something I'm wondering:

The Almighty gives its users the ability to see all possible futures, undisputed.

However, nothing I've seen or read even implies that it allows the wielder the ability to see things that they be capable of seeing if they were not loking into the future.

Example. There is an invisible rock, Yhwach can't see it. Yhwach uses The Almighty to look into the future. Even though he is using The Almighty, Yhwach still can't see that rock, because the Almighty does not increase his ability to see things that would be invisible to him normally.
 
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Link Eternal said:
Well, does the rock have a soul? Technically, any user of The Almighty could see anything with a soul. And everything in Bleach has a soul.

So verse-equalization per standard battle rules takes care of this question altogether, actually, I'm realizing.
 
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Peter "Quicksilver" Maximoff said:
Wasn't Yhwach the one that sealed Gremmy in the first place? And was stated to be the only person capable of of doing so or something like that?
Yup, he was indeed. Gremmy is known as the #2 strongest Quincy by the Sternritter and only Yhwach can top him, and did indeed seal him per the latest novel
 
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He chose to do so for two reason:

1. Plot convenience and a prophesy

2. If he had done so earlier before the prophesied time, he would kill all the Sternritter inadvertently
 
Xulrev said:
I think you might have missed my point.

If Yhwach can't see something without the Almighty. he won't be able to see it if even if he's looking into the future with the Almighty.

And while the Almighty is most likely the most absurd hax in Bleach, it is not infallable even in-verse.
 
What does this have to do with anything? I don't know the answer to that question link but it does not matter. I'm not even using the soul argument others are using. But you don't need to physically see a power to understand it is my point. It's quite frankly the only one that matters
 
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Link Eternal said:
I think you might have missed my point.

If Yhwach can't see something without the Almighty. he won't be able to see it if even if he's looking into the future with the Almighty.

And while the Almighty is most likely the most absurd hax in Bleach, it is not infallable even in-verse.
Lmao what are you talking about? He affected things through Kyoka Suigetsu, when he wasn't even 'looking' at the real thing, so of course he can affect things he 'can't see'.
 
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Ariandelle said:
What does this have to do with anything? I don't know the answer to that question link but it does not matter. I'm not even using the soul argument others are using. But you don't need to physically see a power to understand it is my point. It's quite frankly the only one that matters
Aria is also correct here.

You have to create a meta argument on what it means to 'witness' a power here to try and downplay Yhwach. I could easily argue that witnessing a fire manipulator create fire wasn't me witnessing the 'power' in action but merely the effect the power had on the world; Yhwach would still null that power, and canonically has done such with things even more abstract.

The entire OP really is a bit ludicrous to question when, to engage it, one must presume the very definition we are given for The Almighty and how it works is non-canon and we are seeing absurdly reaching arguments to even try and poke holes in it.
 
Xulrev said:
This is nice. So what happens when Yhwach also can't percieve the effect a hax has on the world?

Also, the word canon is thrown around a bit too much here, and most times it is actually more insulting than I think people realize or intend. Just because a controversal point of view is brought up, does not mean that the person bringing it up is uninformed about the topic, or didn't thoroughly dissect their own arguments to the best of their ability.

Someone is disregarding canon? Perhaps the other side has not thought as critically about the topic as they should.
 
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So Link, you're asking me what happens when an ability that has no effect whatsoever on anything, ever, is used?

....nothing happens I guess, since by definition in this analogy it does nothing.
 
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There are major false equivalancies here that are just ridiculous and nothing but reaches.

>"Ichigo can't use Gran Rey Cero, Getsuga Jushisho in The World of the Living because he only used it on Soul Society."

This contributes to absolutely nothing here. Ichigo "only using" those moves in the Soul Society are because he only used them against opponents where the fight just happened to take place in the Soul Society.

Shinigami not being invisible outside the world of the living is based on a natural verse mechanic. They are invisible in the world of the living because of 2 things, low level reiryoku and the world being made of Kishi (physical matter). Thats the only reason why spirits in bleach are invisible at all. You can't have a spirit be invisible in a world thats 100% spiritual based like the soul society or hueco mundo, where everyone and their mother are spirits too. You have to become reishi just to enter those worlds.

This is not the same thing at all.

>This is dumb, everyone in bleach can see invisble spirit scale from the fact that everyone who has reiatsu above average can see invisible spirit in the human world, nevermind that everyone who have decent control of their reiatsu can see stuff wihout relying on their eyes

This means absolutely nothing as invisibility in bleach becomes irrelevant when you enter the Soul Society or Hueco Mundo. Spiritual perceptive abilities being scaled from one character to another only matters when they are in the world of the living, the only world out of the 3 where spirits are invisible.

Yhwach has never used his Almighty to foresee invisible spirits, much less null the powers of them, in the world of the living. So this point is 100% worthless here.
 
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Link Eternal said:
So you are telling me that Yhwach can percieve every effect something has on anything ever?
Not what I stated. I'm asking you to clarify your question, since it seemed to be 'a hax that never has an effect on anything ever that is perceptible'.
 
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Link Eternal said:
The Almighty gives its users the ability to see all possible futures, undisputed.

However, nothing I've seen or read even implies that it allows the wielder the ability to see things that they be capable of seeing if they were not loking into the future.

Example. There is an invisible rock, Yhwach can't see it. Yhwach uses The Almighty to look into the future. Even though he is using The Almighty, Yhwach still can't see that rock, because the Almighty does not increase his ability to see things that would be invisible to him normally.
Link summed up exactly what im currently talking about here.

The almighty doesnt enhance Yhwach's sight, only the range of it via seeing into all possible futures. Just because Yhwach uses it to expand his sights range doesnt mean the Almighty enhances his vision to a level where he can see things that he wouldnt be able to see without it. Links example is a perfect one. Yhwach cant see an invisible rock with his own eyes, so what makes you think the Almighty will allow him to bypass the rocks invisibility and see it simply because the range of Yhwach's sight has heavily increased?
 
Actually I'm not sure anyone has said that. They said he can see the invisible in general.So all that for nothing I suppose
 
>So what happens when Yhwach also can't percieve the effect a hax has on the world?

>So Link, you're asking me what happens when an ability that has no effect whatsoever on anything, ever, is used?

>So you are telling me that Yhwach can percieve every effect something has on anything ever?

>Not what I stated. I'm asking you to clarify your question, since it seemed to be 'a hax that never has an effect on anything ever that is perceptible'.


Alright, I'll rewind a bit:

>So Link, you're asking me what happens when an ability that has no effect whatsoever on anything, ever, is used?

No, this is not at all what I'm asking. I'm asking if Yhwach can neg an ability if he can neither see the ability being manifested, nor the effects the maniifested ability has on the world.
 
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So you're asking what happens if a hax exists such that it has no effect that manifests, yes? Nothing results from its usage?
 

Warren_Valion

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>You mean a verse whos invisiblity is only useful in one world. The living world. Somewhere Yhwach has never used the Almighty in to null powers. Had he done that, I would understand this point.

What the fuck does Yhwach's invisibility have to do with the Almighty being the greatest power in a series with non-physical powers, and thus would have the power to null said abilities?

>Yhwach's power null works by Yhwach understanding a power and making that power be on his side. Yhwach doesnt need to see his own powers in order to understand them since...well...they're his own powers...he'd know what they do whether he can see them or not for obvious reasons.

Now if Yhwach forsaw invisible powers from an opponent, and nulled it, then that would be evidence of Yhwach seeing invisible powers. But we are never given anything like that in the entire Blood War arc of the manga.


Yhwach's power null is done by seeing a power, and by the virtue of seeing it, he understands it, and then said power takes his side because of that.

Also, I am almost entirely postive Gremmy's power didn't come from Yhwach. Isn't implied that Gremmy is the mind of the Soul King?

And Yhwach negated Ichibe's Conceptual Manipulation - which is an non-physical power.

>Your not quite correct here. Yes, im making a claim. But im making a negative claim, which doesnt need to proven. You on the other hand however, are making a positive claim. Im saying Yhwach cant forsee invisible powers from opponents, while you are saying he can. The negative doesnt need to be proven, but the positive does. Thats how Burden of Proof works.

So no, this isnt over yet.


That's ridiculous and is an insane bias, the Burden of Proof is on the person who makes the initiating claim - whether said claim be positive or negative is irrelevant.

Any definitio of the Burden of Proof on any website will tell you this. The defintion is that the person making the claim, needs to back up their claim with proof.

Why should this wiki's defintion be so skewed towards skepticism instead of trying to propagate an even debate?


Despite that, like I said earlier - Yhwach negated Ichibe's Conceptual Manipulation - which is a non-physical power.
 

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>Also not evidence since Shinigami cannot use their invisiblity outside of the living world, a world entirely made of Kishi (physical matter)

Where did you get this non-sense?


Shinigami ARE invisible in the living world, that's why they have Gigai's - so they can be seen and interact with the Human World.
 
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>What the fuck does Yhwach's invisibility have to do with the Almighty being the greatest power in a series with non-physical powers, and thus would have the power to null said abilities?

Because those invisible powers are only invisible in one setting: the world of the living. And Yhwach has no feats of using the Almighty to negate those powers when they're actually invisible. He only has feats of negating them when within the Soul Society (and Hueco Mundo by extension), where these powers are used 100% visibly in these spiritually based worlds.

In other words, just because Yhwach can negate the powers of bleachverse doesnt mean he can negate them when they are invisible in the world of the living. Feats trump statement and Yhwach has never negated these powers when used invisibly in the living world.

>And Yhwach negated Ichibe's Conceptual Manipulation - which is an non-physical power.

And Ichibe's conceptual manipulation is done by using Ichimonji's black ink to splatter someone with it and re-write their name. It is absolutely not invisible. The effects are, the power itself isnt. Yhwach's Almighty gained dominion over the ink to negate the inks power in general by turning Ichibe's ink over to his side, hence why when Yhwach's Almighty activated the ink just slid off.

>That's ridiculous and is an insane bias, the Burden of Proof is on the person who makes the initiating claim - whether said claim be positive or negative is irrelevant.

It is very much so relevant. Because again, I have made a negative claim while you have made a positive claim. If someone makes a negative claim, they are claiming that x did not happen. You cant provide evidence for something never happening since its claimed it never happened to begin with and thus evidence for it not happening would never come. However, if someone makes a positive claim, then they are claiming that y did in fact actually happen, that it does exist. And if it exists, then there's evidence for it since it's claimed to have happened.

I dont know why your complaining when thats exactly how this wikia works and has always worked. Someone doesnt need to prove a negative, but someone does need to prove a positive. You can only prove what somethings happened, not what something didnt happen.
 
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Warren Valion said:
>Also not evidence since Shinigami cannot use their invisiblity outside of the living world, a world entirely made of Kishi (physical matter)
Where did you get this non-sense?

Shinigami ARE invisible in the living world, that's why they have Gigai's - so they can be seen and interact with the Human World.
......I never denied this. Re-read the reply.

I said that shinigami cant use their invisibility OUTSIDE the living world. As in the Soul Society or Hueco Mundo, which are spiritually based worlds.
 
@Xulrev

>So you're asking what happens if a hax exists such that it has no effect that manifests, yes? Nothing results from its usage?

No, I'm asking what happens if Yhwach can't see the application of an ability, or effect that manifests, not that no ability is used, or that there is no effect.

@Warren

>And Yhwach negated Ichibe's Conceptual Manipulation - which is an non-physical power.

You mean the non-physical power that requires a very much visible(and physical) applicatio
 
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Heavens Feel said:
Um. The fact that ghosts can see other ghosts?
That isnt evidence. Ghosts can see other ghosts in general for one being a ghost like the other, especially when entering the Soul Society or Hueco Mundo since your literally becoming Reishi.

That has nothing to do with the ability to see ghosts like you could do in the living world.
 
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If your going to claim it is, at least actually explain why it is so you dont come off looking like a troll no offense.

But anyway, it isnt evidence. A ghost seeing another ghost is obvious as both are exactly the same as each other, it has nothing to do with perceptive abilities. And this is especially true when your a ghost thats entering an environment thats 100% spiritual based. This is the reason why a normal human with low reiryoku was able to see Aizen in the soul society because he was also Reishi at that point, in a world thats 100% reishi.
 
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@Kukui

You realise that everything in SS amd HM is invisible to humans right? Everyone amd everything there is invisible but isn't shown to be since everything and everyone there can percieve amd interact with each other. So your ridiculous point of their invisibility only working in the WotL is just that, ridiculous. Souls were never invisible to each other so why would you use that to argue they lack invisibility?

And can a mod close this thread already? The question was answered days ago and at this point its just users repeating the exact same things at each other.
 

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>Because those invisible powers are only invisible in one setting: the world of the living. And Yhwach has no feats of using the Almighty to negate those powers when they're actually invisible. He only has feats of negating them when within the Soul Society (and Hueco Mundo by extension), where these powers are used 100% visibly in these spiritually based worlds.

In other words, just because Yhwach can negate the powers of bleachverse doesnt mean he can negate them when they are invisible in the world of the living. Feats trump statement and Yhwach has never negated these powers when used invisibly in the living world.


Okay,

Dude, I'm talking about Non-physical powers, not invisible powers. Non-physical powers aren't visible, ever.

The Almighty is greater than every other power in the series, and thus all powers in the series logically should be nulled by the Almighty - that includes non-physical powers as well.

Kyoka Suigetsu or Barragan's Time dilation for instance - these are powers that never becomes visible because they aren't physical.

So this point about Yhwach's invisibility is absolutely pointless to the argument.

>And Ichibe's conceptual manipulation is done by using Ichimonji's black ink to splatter someone with it and re-write their name. It is absolutely not invisible. The effects are, the power itself isnt. Yhwach's Almighty gained dominion over the ink to negate the inks power in general by turning Ichibe's ink over to his side, hence why when Yhwach's Almighty activated the ink just slid off.

The Black Ink is a conduit, but the power itself is non-physical. The power that alters Yhwach's name to Kuroari is not able to visibly seen because it doesn't have a corporal body - it just acts through the Black Ink.

Ichibe's power is Name Manipulation for a reason - he's power is to dicate names, and he does that with his ink, but his ink isn't what is changing names, it's the power.

That's why when Yhwach "opened his eyes", and negated the Ichibe's power - The name on Yhwach's body was removed and the Ink fell off his body - the power holding it to Yhwach had faded - said power being a non-physical force.

>I dont know why your complaining when thats exactly how this wikia works and has always worked. Someone doesnt need to prove a negative, but someone does need to prove a positive. You can only prove what somethings happened, not what something didnt happen.

I'm complaining because that's not the accuarate defintion of the Burden of Proof - again, look at any of the three websites I pulled a definition from in a 10 second Google search.

Said definition being that the person making the initiating claim, needs to back up that claim with proof.

And just because that is how "something has always been done" does not mean that said something can't be complained about and changed.

This wiki has done a lot of changing and has endured many large renovations in all of its aspects in just the two years that I have been here, I can't even imagine on how it was before I arrived.
 

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ProfessorKukui4Life said:
......I never denied this. Re-read the reply.

I said that shinigami cant use their invisibility OUTSIDE the living world. As in the Soul Society or Hueco Mundo, which are spiritually based worlds.
I misread that. I admit.

But that's not how that works - Reshi is inherently invisible - being in the Soul Soceity just means that everything is inherently invisible - which makes everything visible.


And are trying to say that Yhwach can't see invisible beings if he's in the World of the Living? Every Qunicy can see Shinigami and Hollows - Yhwach as their progenitor and the Son of the Soul King is no different.
 
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Kukui. Here's another way to explain it.

Yhwach doesn't just see into the future with his eyes though. He sees the events themselves, the actions they are taking, not what is visible to the eye but what is HAPPENING.

It's not him seeing shit physically, but understanding the events as they happen as a nigh omniscient being would— hence the name "The Almighty". "Seeing" means "witnessing the events of the future" and gaining the information from that perception rather than looking at it alone with Naked eyes. Isn't that why he was able to affect Ichibe's conceptual power? It wasn't JUST the ink that he nullified, it was the invisible effect of it. Yhwach couldn't "see" the concept of his name being changed physically, and they already went over how he even affected Kyoka Suigetsu, which isn't "visible" either due to illusions, yeah? But I don't know bleach super duper well, but that's what i'm Getting.
 

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Link Eternal said:
@Warren

>And Yhwach negated Ichibe's Conceptual Manipulation - which is an non-physical power.

You mean the non-physical power that requires a very much visible(and physical) applicatio
As I said to Kukui, Ichibe's power is Name Manipulation - the way he uses this power is through his Ink.

The ink isn't what is changing the name - it's the power behind the ink.

That's why when Yhwach erases the name Kuroari - the ink falls off his skin, because the power holding it there disappeared.

And you can tell he's not negating the ink because he can't. Yhwach can't negate physcial forces or objects. He's negating the power behind the ink.

Said power is an non-physical force.
 
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Yeah, like, a power can have an abstract effect but need a physical medium to work. You don't have to erase the physical medium to nullify the power that is imbued into it. And Yhwach did that exactly— he didn't erase the ink but the abstract, imperceptible power that was imbued onto the ink. Ink Manipulation is also a power that Ichibe has, but he didn't null that useless shit.
 
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>You realise that everything in SS amd HM is invisible to humans right?

To humans when they are in the world of the living? Of course.

But not when they are actually i the soul society or hueco mundo since they at that point also become reishi. You have to be converted into spiritual matter in order to enter these worlds period, the worlds themselves being invisible to humans in a Kishi based setting is irrelevant when the human needs to turn from kishi to reishi in order to even see those worlds. If you are reishi yourself, you will automatically be able to see something thats also reishi based, it has 0 thing to do with perceptive skill. Unless you want to seriously say that an ordinary everyday human has high reiryoku for being able to see a Trascendent Aizen while in the Soul Society before being reiatsu-vaporized.

>Everyone amd everything there is invisible but isn't shown to be since everything and everyone there can percieve amd interact with each other.

No, that is not how this works. A ghost does not gain high perceptive abilities just by being able to see other ghosts as they are both exactly the same kind of beings. It a natural phenomena, not a skill. And in an environment thats also spiritually based will make that even easier. We dont scale perception like this and I have never even seen this be a thing until you brought this up just now.

>Souls were never invisible to each other so why would you use that to argue they lack invisibility?

Because souls not being invisible to each other is, again, a natural occurrence? Of course souls are not invisible to each other because both are the same exact type of beings. Im not saying Shinigami lack invisiblity, im saying that their use of it is limited. They cant become invisible in a world or setting thats 100% made up of the same thing they're also made up of.

Thats like saying someone made of water can become "more watery" than an ocean, a body of water.
 
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>Dude, I'm talking about Non-physical powers, not invisible powers. Non-physical powers aren't visible, ever.

If your saying they aren't visible, then your saying they're invisible powers...

>The Almighty is greater than every other power in the series, and thus all powers in the series logically should be nulled by the Almighty - that includes non-physical powers as well.

And I disagree with that because the Almighty has 0 feats of negging these powers when they are used invisibly. Yhwach has only been proven to negate them when they are visibly based. Just as someone said above, the Almighty is undoubtedly the greatest power but that does not make it flawless.

>Kyoka Suigetsu or Barragan's Time dilation for instance - these are powers that never becomes visible because they aren't physical.

Isnt Barragan's time hax just age manipulation? You can clearly see someone being aged. And Aizen's Kyoka Suigetsu is not a great example since Yhwach most definitely did not neg it. The effect of KS wore off when Yhwach rewrote his death after being killed by Ichigo.

>The Black Ink is a conduit, but the power itself is non-physical. The power that alters Yhwach's name to Kuroari is not able to visibly seen because it doesn't have a corporal body - it just acts through the Black Ink.

Acting through the black ink (and Ichimonji too actually) is exactly why the power itself is not invisible hough. The power of renaming targets is represented by a physical form that can be most definitely seen, the black ink. The effect of the ink is invisible but the power itself is not. The power is being used through the black ink. This is why when Yhwach awakened the Almighty the ink no longer tried attacking him because he turned the ink itself, and hence its effects, over to his side.

By the way, Ichibe explicitly explained in detail how his conceptual manipulation worked BEFORE Yhwach awakened his Almighty. Literally moments before. So even with the benefit of the doubt, Ichibe allowed Yhwach to understand his abilities before activating the Almighty.

>I'm complaining because that's not the accuarate defintion of the Burden of Proof - again, look at any of the three websites I pulled a definition from in a 10 second Google search.

I mean, a No Limits Fallacy isnt technically a real fallacy but we still very much so use it to stop characters powers from being wanked to oblivion. So I hardly see why not using the accurate description of a definition is any worse. But this is beside the point and it'll derail too much.

Point is, you cant prove something didnt happen, you can only prove something did happen. Its just that simple.
 
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The Prince of Counters said:
Damn this guy really has something against Yhwach lol
And you have something against being actually respectful to people who have different views than you.

Which is a bad thing to have if you want to keep staying here without causing trouble.
 
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Kukui, it looks like you're making the claim that Yhwach specifically attempted to mull the ink instead of the power of the ink. Is that what you're saying?
 
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Amexim said:
Kukui, it looks like you're making the claim that Yhwach specifically attempted to mull the ink instead of the power of the ink. Is that what you're saying?
Yes. Yhwach specifically says that any power that he understands will turn to be on his side. And when doing that against Ichibe's ink, the ink stopped trying to change Yhwachs name when the Almighty was activated, showing that the ink itself was affected.

Plus why would Yhwach only effect the inks powers instead of the ink as a whole?
 
Acting through the black ink (and Ichimonji too actually) is exactly why the power itself is not invisible hough. The power of renaming targets is represented by a physical form that can be most definitely seen, the black ink. The effect of the ink is invisible but the power itself is not. The power is being used through the black ink. This is why when Yhwach awakened the Almighty the ink no longer tried attacking him because he turned the ink itself, and hence its effects, over to his side.

This^^^

And I'll end with this before I'm off to sleep:

Support of OP: Yhwach has no feat of negating an ability when he is unable to see the application of said abilities.

Opposition: Ichibe's ink isn't the ability itself, the conceptual ability is an ability only carried by the ink, but is not a property of the ink itself. Thus Yhwach negating Ichibe's concept manip is proof of Yhwach's capacity to neg powers he can't see.

Keep the debate clean people.

Good Luck, and Good Night.
 
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I mean

why not do revisions for every character on vs battle wiki, that have abilities & tiers that they shouldn't have at all.
 
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I have to get to bed too in a bit too so im gonna end it here for tonight as well.

I'll get back to this tomorrow and any replies that possibly come.
 
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Because you're going to need to produce more evidence when you make a claim like that. I would think it's more reasonable to assume he's targeting the qualities of the ink rather than the ink itself. You seem to be extrapolating a weakness from something with little lore favoring your position. Whether you're biased or not is irrelevant to the fact that it's what you're doing. It's far simpler and more supported to assume Yhwach is targeting the invisible trait of the ink thanks to the heavy implications of the scene— placing emphasis on the conceptual manipulation vs the ink manipulation, but let's say that's a weak way to argue an interpretation and drop the idea that you using the ink moving as evidence of you looking for a way to reinterpret the scene. Never mind how if he was manipulating the ink but not the imperceptible power and nature of the ink that he's more likely to not have it touch him or erase it or however he stops it, the conceptual manipulation of the ink, which isn't being targeted because of its imperceptible nature, would still impact him through contact. Because that's what the power does, yeah? If he was trying to null the ink, but not the invisible power the ink has, he would have avoided touching it or something, because not targeting that invisible power would make its dangerous effects still active, as before the ink was manipulated, the attack was intended to harm Yhwach. If Yhwach didn't Target this invisible power, he wouldn't have changed its effect or threat to him. But whatever.

It still doesn't change that the harder you argue against it, the more your claims seem to line up with a downgrade. To claim what you are right now is to argue that Yhwach wouldn't be able to nullify an attack because you believe he can't tell that an attack has a non-visually obvious effect to it. If Yhwach was to be attacked by my ki blast that has the ability to erase memories, but I never told him that's what happened, he couldn't nullify the memory manipulation according to you. Which is a downgrade, yeah? Not even an invisible power, but a "visible one". Which is easily explained by him being able to perceive not just what "looks" but what "is". My attack being invisible doesn't mean I didn't do it in the future. Someone with Clairvoyance like that doesn't mean they literally only "see" the future when they have future sight. They know the events of the future, including abstract ones, and we have very little reason to suspect Yhwach has a limitation like that when compared with how high tier all of the other aspects of his future sight is.

But, in this same scene, he doesn't dodge the ink, so he doesn't dodge the blast either. If he can do that with Ink, why would he need to dodge my blast. Because he can nullify the effect of the blast, not only the physical blast itself.
 
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ProfessorKukui4Life said:
Yes. Yhwach specifically says that any power that he understands will turn to be on his side. And when doing that against Ichibe's ink, the ink stopped trying to change Yhwachs name when the Almighty was activated, showing that the ink itself was affected.

Plus why would Yhwach only effect the inks powers instead of the ink as a whole?
Because the ink is harmless to him without the esoteric affect it has. It becomes just regular ink in that usage. I would argue he's not even affecting the ink because it just... Slumps Down after touching him it looks like.
 

Warren_Valion

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>If your saying they aren't visible, then your saying they're invisible powers...

There's a difference between something that is just invisible - and something that isn't physical.

>And I disagree with that because the Almighty has 0 feats of negging these powers when they are used invisibly. Yhwach has only been proven to negate them when they are visibly based. Just as someone said above, the Almighty is undoubtedly the greatest power but that does not make it flawless.

You can't state that The Almighty is the greatest power in the verse and also state that it can't negate hax in the same verse - those are conflicting statements.

And my god, you are such a fucking feat junkie - feats aren't the only thing that are used, you know?

Is Vegeta not a planet buster because he didn't actually blow up the planet in the Saiyan Saga? Is Super Saiyan God not a universe buster for similar reasons?

Don't be ridiculous.

>Isnt Barragan's time hax just age manipulation? You can clearly see someone being aged. And Aizen's Kyoka Suigetsu is not a great example since Yhwach most definitely did not neg it. The effect of KS wore off when Yhwach rewrote his death after being killed by Ichigo.

Barraggan's Age Manipulation is Time Manipulation. But I was specifically talking about the Time-field around his base form that dilatites time to slow down so that he can't have anyone sneak attack him. That's passive time slow - a non-physical power. And seeing someone being aged doesn't mean anything - Yhwach negates and understands powers, not the effects of powers.

Incorrect - we do not know exactly why KS stopped. It could have wore off, it could have been Aizen who stopped it, et cetera et cetera.

However, I never said that Yhwach negated it - I was just writing an example of an non-physical power in Bleach - not ones that Yhwach negated. Yhwach never even met Baraggan, he couldn't have negated his power.

>Acting through the black ink (and Ichimonji too actually) is exactly why the power itself is not invisible hough. The power of renaming targets is represented by a physical form that can be most definitely seen, the black ink. The effect of the ink is invisible but the power itself is not. The power is being used through the black ink. This is why when Yhwach awakened the Almighty the ink no longer tried attacking him because he turned the ink itself, and hence its effects, over to his side.

By the way, Ichibe explicitly explained in detail how his conceptual manipulation worked BEFORE Yhwach awakened his Almighty. Literally moments before. So even with the benefit of the doubt, Ichibe allowed Yhwach to understand his abilities before activating the Almighty.


I already responeded to this comment

As I said to Kukui, Ichibe's power is Name Manipulation - the way he uses this power is through his Ink.

The ink isn't what is changing the name - it's the power behind the ink.

That's why when Yhwach erases the name Kuroari - the ink falls off his skin, because the power holding it there disappeared.

And you can tell he's not negating the ink because he can't. Yhwach can't negate physcial forces or objects. He's negating the power behind the ink.

Said power is an non-physical force.


And Kukui - why do you make the assumption that Yhwach understanding an ability that was not because of his vision is reason enough to say Yhwach can negate a power?

Yhwach explicitly stated that it is because of his vision that he sees all futures, and in those he futures he sees powers, and the powers which he sees, he knows, and the powers that he knows from said vision takes his side - not the powers which some one explained about in a monoluage take his side.

You are skipping the basises for Yhwach's "understanding" - his vision, for no good reason.

>I mean, a No Limits Fallacy isnt technically a real fallacy but we still very much so use it to stop characters powers from being wanked to oblivion. So I hardly see why not using the accurate description of a definition is any worse. But this is beside the point and it'll derail too much.

Point is, you cant prove something didnt happen, you can only prove something did happen. Its just that simple.


No Limits Fallacy isn't a legal fallacy for obvious reason, but that doesn't make it not a real fallacy.

And using accurate descprtion is important because its accurate - settling for anything less is being facetious.

Point is, you need a logical basis for your points - whether those points are postive or negative shouldn't matter.
 
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The affect of the ink is invisible. Not the ink itself. It's visibly just ink. Kukui himself seems to argue he only knows about the abstract aspect of it because the information was given to Yhwach. So, again, he wouldn't even be able to use that power on something he could see if he didn't know what it does. Which is a downgrade b. You said no downgrades.

And Link already understands the argument, Yhwach affected the invisible abstract power of the ink, not just the ink itself. Otherwise the ink's power would still fuck him. The ink and the power aren't the same thing. The ink is the medium. And to admit that Yhwach can affect something that's intangible like a concept just because he knows it exists... Is good evidence to suggest that he doesn't need to "see" physically the effect of the powers to affect them or negate them, because he wouldn't even know where to aim his negation at or how to aim it at such an invisible and non-physical thing without him being able to understand where to do all of that. Which negates the argument presented by Kukui.

Just because you know where an invisible man is, doesn't mean you know how to stop him from punching you, is the idea. Just because Yhwach knows the power is using ink as a medium doesn't mean he can target that power. How would he do so? How would he know what to do? The fact that he can nullify it in that imperceptible state demonstrates his ability to negate powers regardless of his ability to perceive them with his naked eyes, because nullifying imperceptible powers REQUIRES him to be able to address them without sight. It proves itself.
 

Warren_Valion

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ProfessorKukui4Life said:
Yes. Yhwach specifically says that any power that he understands will turn to be on his side. And when doing that against Ichibe's ink, the ink stopped trying to change Yhwachs name when the Almighty was activated, showing that the ink itself was affected.

Plus why would Yhwach only effect the inks powers instead of the ink as a whole?
Again, Yhwach's undersanding comes from his future sight - not from him figuring the power out.

And again, this is wrong.

The ink is a conduit - it isn't the what is changing Yhwach's name, it is what is being used to write the letters to give Yhwach a new name. Essentially, it is just ink, but because of Ichibe's Name Manipulation - the ink is giving conceptual power.

The reason why this is the case is the answer to your second question - Yhwach can't negate physical forces or objects - he can't negate the ink.

What Yhwach is negating is the conceptual force empowering the ink, and withou that force - the ink doesn't stay on Yhwach's body and falls off.
 
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>Yhwach has never used his Almighty to foresee invisible spirits, much less null the powers of them, in the world of the living. So this point is 100% worthless here.

So what are you saying is Yhwach cannot see Hollow or shinigami in human world? Yhwach the leader of quincy, a race who go to war against shinigami and killing Hollow on daily basic in the human world cannot see an invisible spirits? Your point is indeed 100% worthless here.
 
The ink is really irrelevant in the grand scheme of things, Ichibe has used it on Ikomikidomoe like a millions years ago. And up until he was killed this was still in effect. And he sure as hell wasn't walking around with a body covered in ink lol.
 
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In fact, Warren shows that Yhwach LITERALLY refutes Kukui's claim himself. He's not limited in his perception of the future the same way Ichigo or any other person is, hence him drawing the parallel himself and refuting the idea that his ability and their ability to "see" the future are the same. He literally says his power goes BEYOND just seeing the future, which is what Kukui was trying to argue against— that is, he seems to believe Yhwach can only SEE the future with eyes and sight literally.
 

Warren_Valion

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>Acting through the black ink (and Ichimonji too actually) is exactly why the power itself is not invisible hough. The power of renaming targets is represented by a physical form that can be most definitely seen, the black ink. The effect of the ink is invisible but the power itself is not. The power is being used through the black ink. This is why when Yhwach awakened the Almighty the ink no longer tried attacking him because he turned the ink itself, and hence its effects, over to his side.

You are getting this wrong:

  • The Ink is a conduit.
  • The power is the conceptual manipulation that fuels the ink.
  • The effect is that the person covered in Ink is renamed.
The ink isn't the power, and the conceptual manipulation isn't the effect. This isn't accuate.


As I have said - if the ink was the power, then Yhwach wouldn't have been able to negate it because Yhwach can't negate physical forces, he can only negate powers.

The ink would be such a physical force - that's why the power behind Ichibe's Name Manipulation is his name manipulation, a non-physical conceptual force.

One which Yhwach negated.
 

Warren_Valion

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Also, now that I am thinking about it.

Didn't Yhwach negate Orihime's Causality Manipulation with the Almighty as well?
 
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"The Almighty isn't the ability to "see the future". It is the power to "transform" it."

He talks like it's him who is warping the very reality in which the future exists, changing the future ITSELF which isn't just what he sees but what IS, the very events that happen irrelevant to some petty perception of what is right in front of you. The naked eye. It's not like our ability to see and affect what is in front of us. To SEE what is in front of us, even.
 
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Warren Valion said:
Also, now that I am thinking about it.
Didn't Yhwach negate Orihime's Causality Manipulation with the Almighty as well?
Kinda, he not stopping orihime from using her power, but her power become worthless when she try to fix zangetsu.
 
Even someone like Ichibe can see things across all dimensions, Aizen can see and sense people within a dimesnion inside another dimension. arguing Yhwach can't see something invisible is nonsensical.
 
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Yhwach was gonna invade the Living World in the manga but that didn't happened because ending was rush, so...

1. If Yhwach had fought any Shinigami in the living world he can still see them because Ghost can see other Ghost and Yhwach told Uryu that he was the only Quincy alive that survive Auswhalwen while Yhwach himself is a Ghost since human bodies cannot exist in Soul Society.

2. No matter in what world Yhwach is Ghost can see other Ghost.

3. Humans cannot see or interact with the spiritual world.
 
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OP you gonna answer my question?

Is your question related to an attack that is also invisible to Ghosts in the first place?


Can we close this thread? OP isn't making sense.

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I think the OP has figured out how to beat Yhwach. Fight him in the human world because apparently, he can't see anyone in bleach there.

If possible I would like to ask for this ridiculous (albeit unintentionally funny) thread closed.
 
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According to the OP Yhwach was going to invade the World of the Living without been able to use his power, The Almighty? I don't think so.

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Chapter 660
 
Actually, combing through this fight again has made me wonder something. Is Ichibe's ink actually ink? It is becoming more and more likely that he simply manifests [Black] as ink.
 
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