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Yhwach Hax Downgrade (small)

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Acasuality shouldn't be remove just from Yhwach, but Mimihagi and Rei-O himself. The worlds existing is enough of a contradiction for this beings to have such power, since it's their past and it still exists.
 
We still need a way to classify their characteristics, because as an absolute minimum, Mimihagi does not exist in the future. Or is that simply an immunity to Fate Manip (or something else).
 
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ProfessorKukui4Life said:
Bump. We need to conclude this.
We either remove acasulity from Yhwach, Mimihagi, and Rei-O or dicuss if another type of acasuality fits these characters. None should have type 2 because each one of this characters have a past which is still remmeber by everyone.

  • Yhwach you already explained.
  • Rei-O is remmebered by Ichibei.
  • Mimihagi is a legend in Rukongai and Ukitake remembers his past when Mimihagi saved him.
 
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Personally, I can honestly see an argument for Mimihagi to have Type 1. But its debatable as, like Paul said, none of them have ever been tried to be paradoxed before.

Whats Type 3 Acasuality again?
 
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Yhwach fits Acausality type 1: (He wasn't affected by Tsukishima's Past Manipulation & Orihime's Casuality Manipulation. He also knew this would happened and aloud it.)

Type 1: Time Paradox Immunity: Characters with this type of Acausality are rendered immune to changes in the past and standard temporal paradoxes, but remain just as vulnerable in the present and can be affected by normal Causality Manipulation and similar abilities.

Mimihagi and Rei-o fit Acausality type 4:

Type 4: Irregular Causality: Characters with this type of Acausality operate on a different and irregular system of cause and effect than regular causality. This grants them resistance to abilities such as Causality Manipulation, Fate Manipulation, and Precognition, among others.
 
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Except tsukishima's past manipulation did work

That's how orihime was able to fix Ichigo's bankai

You don't get the acasuality type 4 from having those resistances, it gives those to you. You need a statement or evidence that they don't operate in the normal system of causality
 
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Paul Frank said:
Except tsukishima's past manipulation did work
That's how orihime was able to fix Ichigo's bankai

You don't get the acasuality type 4 from having those resistances, it gives those to you. You need a statement or evidence that they don't operate in the normal system of causality
Yhwach gets both Acasuality type 1 & 4 from Mimihagi and the Soul King. Those powers didn't work on Yhwach since he still had the powers he stole from Ichigo they were not remove from him the moment Ichigo's Bankai was fixed. Yhwach knew this so he wouldn't had allow it if he was gonna lose them. There's also the light novel mentioning that Ichigo regained his powers over time, after Yhwach killed and sealed away as an undead.
 
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None of what you said at all supports either type 1 or 4

Why would Yhwach lose the powers he stole from Ichigo just because the later got his sword fixed

Yhwach knowing that would happen doesn't mean anything either, that just means he knew Tsukishima would use his power on Ichigo to help the sword be fixed. Ichigo regaining this powers overtime also again doesn't support acasuality for anyone
 
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Paul Frank said:
None of what you said at all supports either type 1 or 4
Why would Yhwach lose the powers he stole from Ichigo just because the later got his sword fixed

Yhwach knowing that would happen doesn't mean anything either, that just means he knew Tsukishima would use his power on Ichigo to help the sword be fixed. Ichigo regaining this powers overtime also again doesn't support acasuality for anyone
I was under the impression that you knew that Mimihagi was an acasual per his embodimment. So, I was talking post-argument since Yhwach already absorbed Mimihagi.
 
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Mimihagi being acasual is iffy on it's own though

Being the embodiment of stagnation doesn't mean you have no past, considering multiple people remember him
 
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Paul Frank said:
Mimihagi being acasual is iffy on it's own though
Being the embodiment of stagnation doesn't mean you have no past, considering multiple people remember him
So why was this thread made again?
 
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Because that was only brought up mid way through the thread

The thread was basically "Even if mimihagi is type 2, absorbing him doesn't give you type 2"

Then later in the thread it was brought up that embodying stagnation doesn't mean you have no past and no future, at the best it can mean no future
 
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Paul Frank said:
Because that was only brought up mid way through the thread

The thread was basically "Even if mimihagi is type 2, absorbing him doesn't give you type 2"

Then later in the thread it was brought up that embodying stagnation doesn't mean you have no past and no future, at the best it can mean no future
Why? How? Because?

Notlikethis
Notlikethistwo
Notlikethisthree
 
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I agree that Yhwach doesnt have Type 1.

Tsukishima never tried to use Past Manipulation on Yhwach himself, he used it on Ichigo to change the past where Yhwach didnt break Ichigo's Zangetsu. If Yhwach was a Type 1, Tsukishima wouldnt have been able to change the past and restore the sword.
 
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Tsukishima did not do that. He made an entire timeline wherein the Bankai 'never was broken' and THEN Orihime could causally reject the future damage Yhwach had inflicted
 
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Tsukishima beat Aizen with Book of the End, for one. We see him beating Aizen instead of Ichigo in Origime and Chad's memories, and Tsukishima tangibly interacts with the past. Ichigo is the only one who didnt remember that because he had not been affected, thus it's an entire new timeline
 
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Paul Frank said:
>made a timeline
Yeah imma need a scan for that one
Is not a timeline but neither is the past. He doesn't change the past per say, Tsukishima insert himself into a person or object and changes the past of that target everything else remains unaffected. Orihime who reverts things to a point of time where they were healed, restore Ichigo's blade to that knew "timeline" that Tsukishima created in Ichigo.
 
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Dangai Ichigo said:
Wait so after Yhwach is defeated Ichigo gets another amp, is that what's being implied ?
Yes, his powers are doubled because Tsukishima and Orihime restore/create those powers from an alternative timeline and gave them back to Ichigo, so the ones he had taken from him by Yhwach returned to him over time as well.
 
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ProfessorKukui4Life said:
Wait wait wait. When in the hell did that happen?
Chapter 456.

Chad confirms that Tsukishima is who defeated Aizen, in Butterfly form.

Tsukishima himself confirms he inserted himself into their pasts

And as we have seen from Chapter 468, Tsukishima actually meaningfully interacts with whatever past he inserts himself into, such as learning all about Senbonzakura

So, it's indistinguishable from alternate timelines. And since he objectively does interact with that timeline and whatever he does in that timeline comes to fruition, whether it be training with Senbonzakura or setting a trap that didn't exist there before, that means that Tsukishima did, in fact, defeat Aizen in an alternate past that Orihime and Chad witnessed....all thanks to his Book of the End.

Super nifty ability when you analyze it, right?
 
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Something doesnt add up. Im pretty sure when Tsukishima says he's "inserting himself into their pasts", he's simply inserting himself into their memories of the past. Because if he's inserting himself into their pasts, that would mean he's time traveling into their pasts. Which doesnt make sense since he isn't physically doing so.

Is he projecting himself into their pasts when he stabs them with the Book of the End?
 
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ProfessorKukui4Life said:
Something doesnt add up. Im pretty sure when Tsukishima says he's "inserting himself into their pasts", he's simply inserting himself into their memories of the past. Because if he's inserting himself into their pasts, that would mean he's time traveling into their pasts. Which doesnt make sense since he isn't physically doing so.
Is he projecting himself into their pasts when he stabs them with the Book of the End?
It's like him slipping a bookmark into a point in time in the past of their lives, where their life is a book.

He literally just inserts it at a random page and can alter the contents of those pages via tangible interaction.

It's how he makes a tree grow in the path of a lightning bolt from Candice with a simple strike to the ground.

It's how he learns of Senbonzakura's secret weakness that not even Byakuya has told anyone about.

And it's how he, hilariously enough, bested Aizen.

It's why I will always fight for Book of the End being top 3 abilities in Bleach. The Almighty, The Visionary, and Book of the End.

Future, Present, and Past reality warping, essentially and respectively.
 
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Even though he would actually get destroyed if he went to fight Aizen and there was literally only Ichigo in that fight, if anything they just think Tsukishima helped when in reality Ichigo still did most of the work
 
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Dangai Ichigo said:
Even though he would actually get destroyed if he went to fight Aizen and there was literally only Ichigo in that fight, if anything they just think Tsukishima helped when in reality Ichigo still did most of the work
He changes the past in a different timeline and in the present as well because he could change the past of the ground to set traps in the current timeline against Byakuya, so he can do both.
 
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Yes but then you remember that the ground is Yukio's Fullbring, so if anything he could have made that in the past Yukio added traps to cheat
 
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Dangai Ichigo said:
Yes but then you remember that the ground is Yukio's Fullbring, so if anything he could have made that in the past Yukio added traps to cheat
He is still changing the past. In the light novels he makes a tree grow out of nowhere against Grimmjow.
 
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AppleLord said:
He changes the past in a different timeline and in the present as well because he could change the past of the ground to set traps in the current timeline against Byakuya, so he can do both.
Its not exactly "current". Tsukishima just went back into the past of the object he inflicted Book of the End on and in that past, set up early traps, which therefore go into the present to work for his benefit. Just as he did with Byakuya.
 
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Its not exactly "current". Tsukishima just went back into the past of the object he inflicted Book of the End on and in that past, set up early traps, which therefore go into the present to work for his benefit. Just as he did with Byakuya.

The current timeline where he fought Byakuya wasn't affected by the alternative timeline he created for Chad and Orihime where he defeated Aizen and help them save Rukia. All I am saying is that he can make alternative ones exclusively and change the present one as well.
 
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Sorry, had other stuff to do before getting back to this. Either way, we're getting too off topic about Tsukishima, anything scaling wise for him i'll take to another thread.

Getting back to this threads topic, I still disagree with Yhwach getting Type 1 Acasuality. Even if Tsukishima's ability made an alternate timeline for the restortion of Ichigo's Zangetsu, the fact at the end of the day still is that Tsukishima never tried using the Book of the End on Yhwach in the first place, so there's no definitive conclusion that Yhwach would remain unaffected by Tsukishima's past manipulation.
 
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ProfessorKukui4Life said:
What does Tsukishima dying have to do with this?
Because he is no idiot. Only one would think of that and he said it himself that he didn't want to get involved. He only followed Ginjo's order to help Ichigo to pay him back for taking his powers away.
 
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In any case, if a better Acasuality is to be added (I still disagree but oh well), it should be taken to its own thread as this one is near 350 replies.

Back to the original point, we need to remove Acasuality Type 2 from Yhwach and Mimihagi and conclude this.
 
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We either remove acasulity from Yhwach, Mimihagi, and Rei-O or dicuss if another type of acasuality fits these characters. None should have type 2 because each one of this characters have a past which is still remmeber by everyone.

  • Yhwach you already explained.
  • Rei-O is remmebered by Ichibei.
  • Mimihagi is a legend in Rukongai and Ukitake remembers his past when Mimihagi saved him.
Bump
 
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Mimihagi has a past as apple pointed out..SK with all parts has a past of creating the worlds/destroying big menos/killing hollows

Yeah it's pretty obvious that it should be removed
 
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He obviously has a past. Past events happen and Yhwach is a participant in those past events . He obviously has a future. He alters it for his advantage constantly near the end of the series.
 

Jvando

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Content Moderator
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So, what is the consensus? Should I get staff to see if they agree with the changes?
 

TataHakai

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Type 1: Time Paradox Immunity:Characters with this type of Acausality are rendered immune to changes in the past and standard temporal paradoxes, but remain just as vulnerable in the present and can be affected by normal Causality Manipulation and similar abilities.

(They're not this type as nothing suggests it)

Type 2: Temporal Singularity: Characters with this type of Acausality do not exist in either the past or the future, only the present. This means they cannot be affected by changes to the past, while also making them resistant to Precognition that works by viewing the future, as they do not exist within it, and Fate Manipulation, for the same reason. In essence, they are able to choose their own fates, but they remain just as vulnerable at the point in time in which they do exist.

(Already discussed and debunked above)

Type 3: Temporal Permanence: Characters with this type of Acausality are incredibly difficult to kill, as other versions of themselves - from other points in time and/or from other universes - can survive the destruction of the "original" and act in their place. This also grants them immunity to changes in the past.

(No other versions of the characters exist as bleach isn't a multiverse)

Type 4: Irregular Causality: Characters with this type of Acausality operate on a different and irregular system of cause and effect than regular causality. This grants them resistance to abilities such as Causality Manipulation, Fate Manipulation, and Precognition, among others.

(Pretty sure nothing suggests this either)

Type 5: Causality Transcendence: Characters with this type of Acausality transcend the normal boundaries of cause and effect, existing outside of the causality of a system. Even interacting with them normally may prove virtually impossible.

(Obviously not)


I don't see how they fit any of those above
 

Andytrenom

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@Tata I dont think type 3 requires a multiverse, multiple versions across a single timeline should be enough
 

Jvando

VS Battles
Content Moderator
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Yhwach's almighty allows him to see all possible futures of himself and choose which one best suits him. How would that factor into this @Andy?
 

TataHakai

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Andytrenom said:
@Tata I dont think type 3 requires a multiverse, multiple versions across a single timeline should be enough
That's true, but i don't recall different versions of them existing, just multiple futures of the same version
 

Jvando

VS Battles
Content Moderator
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Mimihagi would still get resistance to future sight or something to that nature since Yhwach couldn't "see" it coming
 

TataHakai

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Since the changes have been made this can probably be closed

Also Jvando Mimihagi already has resistance to precognition
 
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