Homestuck CRT, John Windy Powers downgrade & Low 1-A Depowered Lord English upgrade

[FoxySonicMaster108]

Yeah I was bound to make this eventually (yes I am starting the new year like this)

Crossed out text is stuff I don’t agree with anymore.

I'll get to the abilities first just to get that out of the way anymore when I originally made this CRT

Caliborn/Lord English:

Text Manipulation:

Caliborn was able to manipulate the text in the narration while Andrew Hussie was telling the events (see the page prior to the scan)

Resistance Negation:

Lord English should be given Resistance Negation due to being able to erase John's narrative relevance according to Ult. Dirk, and John already completely transcends canon (which is where his resistance to Plot Manipulation comes from I think, and narrative relevance shouldn't really be able to affect something that transcends the plot)

Ultimate Selves (but mostly Ult. Dirk):

Immortality (Type 9):

I'm not sure if Homestuck^2 related stuff is allowed to be used yet (but who knows if that comic is gonna get updated)
but I think the Ultimate Selves (mostly Dirk) get this ability due to this statement he made here "Maybe we can get back to what things were like in the good old days, where boys were brave, girls were guileful, authors were alliterative and in various dubious states of non-/un/double-death"(source), not to mention they have infinite bodies and go beyond the boundaries of Paradox Space. Not to mention (in Dirk's case) he needed to take on a corporal form at one point which is just an avatar really. So killing that avatar wouldn't really be killing him.
guess we could give Ult Dirk Information or Data Manip because he was messing with Pesterquest which is a game after all.

MSPA Reader:

Immortality (Type 8) (for his Pesterquest key):

I found this while going through the MSPA Reader VS Shallow Vernal thread (credit to ImNot4nUser for the scan the two Pesterquest scans), where MSPA Reader can't die even in Pesterquest due to being a "protagonist" and a "narrative device" and like in Friendsim where Doc Scratch kept resetting whenever Reader did something wrong, in Pesterquest he can just come back whenever he dies or makes a bad decision

John Egbert:
Even I'm not so sure on this one, but since John Egbert transcends canon, he should be at least resistant to Hussie's influence, which could give him resistance to Mind Manipulation or most of the "be the other guy" commands and such. (I think that's where his limited resistance to mind hax comes from anyway? Not sure)


maybe removing Status Effects since he removed The Condesnce's Brainwashing from Jade, and Jade was able to keep following of John while he was just teleporting out of control for quite sometime, but this is a bit more of a maybe, as I don't think we know the range of the brainwashing and it could just be John using Teleportation/BFR out of range.

Also I believe his wind powers (in his base form key) could be downgraded from 2-A (or at least it shouldn't be the only tier for his windy powers), since Bec Noir's green sun fire never showcased any 2-A destruction, I have seen calcs that have put John's windy thing somewhere in 6-C with these calcs (not sure if they would still be usable but it's there)


Alright, now time for the AP upgrade

Depowered Lord English should be Low 1-A

Now this is going to seem a bit out of the blue, and it kinda is in a way. But Lord English, even after the green sun was destroyed, was still able to shatter the roof of existence by just roaring, and this key of Lord English has no other feats aside from fighting a bunch of "2-A's"

Now, how do we know this is weakened Lord English? Simple. In Act 7, before Vriska summons the juju, the green sun is destroyed, and English's aura vanishes, even before we get to choose the meat or candy timelines in the Epilogues, it's already been stated by Rose that the green sun was destroyed, even in the battle against Lord English, Jade notices her powers aren't working because of the destruction of the green sun.

The ones who wouldn't scale at all are the ones who got killed instantly by him, or didn't fight him at all. (I.E Rose & Jade)

Dave would not scale on his own, as he uses a sword that’s stated to be Lord English’s weakness. So this applies to Depowered Lord English, John Egbert, and Davepetasprite^2

 

[FoxySonicMaster108]

Bump

 

[deonment]

Caliborn was able to manipulate the text in the narration while Andrew Hussie was telling the events (see the page prior to the scan)

This is more so his already showcased ability to manipulate the narrative, and we know affecting the narration of events is control over the narrative given ^2.

Lord English should be given Resistance Negation due to being able to erase John's narrative relevance according to Ult. Dirk, and John already completely transcends canon (which is where his resistance to Plot Manipulation comes from I think, and narrative relevance shouldn't really be able to affect something that transcends the plot)

I would think otherwise, given canon=/=narrative, canon is how the narrative is divided up, not the narrative itself, John is still affected by Dirk taking over the narrative, the MSPA reader is still threatened by the Green Sun and Blackout, and still serves his purpose as a narrative device, etc. What transcending canon more likely means here is his ability to traverse freely throughout the narrative and what is contained within it.

I found this while going through the MSPA Reader VS Shallow Vernal thread (credit to @ImNot4nUser for the scan the two Pesterquest scans), where MSPA Reader can't die even in Pesterquest due to being a "protagonist" and a "narrative device" and like in Friendsim where Doc Scratch kept resetting whenever Reader did something wrong, in Pesterquest he can just come back whenever he dies or makes a bad decision

Agree with this.

Even I'm not so sure on this one, but since John Egbert transcends canon, he should be at least resistant to Hussie's influence, which could give him resistance to Mind Manipulation or most of the "be the other guy" commands and such. (I think that's where his limited resistance to mind hax comes from anyway? Not sure)

That's where his resistance comes from, but as I stated above that isn't what canon means, but he just already has an innate resistance to it, like other characters.

Multilocation could be thrown in there since he's, kinda all over the narrative. I doubt it would be combat applicable though.

It isn't, it is just due to him putting his hand through The Treasure, which is likely a bit of foreshadowing for his ability to move throughout the narrative.

maybe removing Status Effects since he removed The Condesnce's Brainwashing from Jade, and Jade was able to keep following of John while he was just teleporting out of control for quite sometime, but this is a bit more of a maybe, as I don't think we know the range of the brainwashing and it could just be John using Teleportation/BFR.

Well, this is more so a weakness of The Condesnce's powers rather than something he has on his own.

Also I believe his wind powers (in his base form key) could be downgraded from 2-A (or at least it shouldn't be the only tier for his windy powers), since Bec Noir's green sun fire never showcased any 2-A destruction, I have seen calcs that have put John's windy thing somewhere in 6-C with these calcs (not sure if they would still be usable but it's there)

That Green Sun fire is a literal manifestation of Bec's green Red Miles given its appearance and how Bec's other use of the green Miles looks.

Now this is going to seem a bit out of the blue, and it kinda is in a way. But Lord English, even after the green sun was destroyed, was still able to shatter the roof of existence by just roaring, and this key of Lord English has no other feats aside from fighting a bunch of "2-A's"

This would be Low 1-A as that is what the Furthest Ring (Which is what reality in this context) is being tiered as atm.

 

[FoxySonicMaster108]

That's where his resistance comes from, but as I stated above that isn't what canon means, but he just already has an innate resistance to it, like other characters.

Well, it says limited in his base form key, which isn't full resistance to it

This would be Low 1-A as that is what the Furthest Ring (Which is what reality in this context) is being tiered as atm.

I was thinking of Low 1-A as well, since reality existence could've referred to the furthest ring (though I thought it meant Paradox Space which is 1-A)

Everything else is fair enough.

Also what about the stuff for the Ultimate Selves?

 

[deonment]

Well, it says limited in his base form key, which isn't full resistance to it

Eh, I can kinda get why, since this is more an aspect of Homestuck's meta stuff, and since mind control has worked on people before, like Vriska, but Vriska has also affected Hussie as he was narrating events, so, eh.

I was thinking of Low 1-A as well, since reality existence could've referred to the furthest ring (though I thought it meant Paradox Space which is 1-A)

Not really, doesn't make sense given where this scene takes place and the fact that the Furthest Ring is called the default state of reality.
So Low 1-A then.

Also what about the stuff for the Ultimate Selves?

Oh, I forgor

not to mention they have infinite bodies and go beyond the boundaries of Paradox Space. Not to mention (in Dirk's case) he needed to take on a corporal form at one point which is just an avatar really. So killing that avatar wouldn't really be killing him.

The former two scans don't mean anything, while the latter is because he was in The Eplouges and ^2 at that time, so he couldn't exactly be there to deal with all that shit. Though one could say that they have Type 9 either way as the

guess we could also slide in Information Analysis for Ult. Dirk because of this

No, that is just zooming in.

as well as Information or Data Manip because he was messing with Pesterquest which is a game after all.

That would be information manip and more plot stuff, the same as the stardust glitches.

I guess possession as well since some Ultimate Selves (like Rose and Dave) have to use stuff like robots to interact with stuff normally. Dirk could probably do it as well (he just doesn't need to), actually, this could potentially even apply for Type 6 Immortality

This is because thierlbody cannot handle Ultimate status, and only after the body dies does its true essence emerge.

 

[Potemkat]

I agree with Deonment.

Although for Lord English I think it's not enough and would be weird.
He just cracked space-time and even Vriska tanked a shard of it. It didn't affect all the Ring or the rivers I think.

Also, if everyone who fought him is Low 1-A, then it scales to most if not all 2-As since it's their self before they fight Condesce/the Jacks

 

[FoxySonicMaster108]

I agree with Deonment.

Although for Lord English I think it's not enough and would be weird.
He just cracked space-time and even Vriska tanked a shard of it. It didn't affect all the Ring or the rivers I think.

Also, if everyone who fought him is Low 1-A, then it scales to most if not all 2-As since it's their self before they fight Condesce/the Jacks

"Existence" literally refers to The Furthest Ring, it even says "Watch Lord English put a crack in reality" before it happens, which reality is The Furthest Ring. Also Lord English has literally done the same thing a lot of other times (yeah in his prime, but he still did it)

Also Vriska tanking it could just be a massive outlier since Jade (who is much more powerful than god tier Vriska) also got hit by a shard of it and it was killing her

This is why I was thinking of make some sort of new key for the characters who do scale like for John and all that (cuz otherwise the scaling would get all ****** up and would be a mess)

 

[Potemkat]

"Existence" literally refers to The Furthest Ring, it even says "Watch Lord English put a crack in reality" before it happens, which reality is The Furthest Ring. Also Lord English has literally done the same thing a lot of other times (yeah in his prime, but he still did it)

He does crack existence, but I don't think anything says it extends across the entire ring. Also it doesn't seem very logic for a version who lost the 1-A energy source to be that strong.

Also Vriska tanking it could just be a massive outlier since Jade (who is much more powerful than god tier Vriska) also got hit by a shard of it and it was killing her

True

This is why I was thinking of make some sort of new key for the characters who do scale like for John and all that (cuz otherwise the scaling would get all ****** up and would be a mess)

To have a new key they would need to have had some form of changes tho.
They didn't become stronger or anything and were still below Caliborn-level right before the Lord English battle.

 

[FoxySonicMaster108]

He does crack existence, but I don't think anything says it extends across the entire ring. Also it doesn't seem very logic for a version who lost the 1-A energy source to be that strong.

Then what other existence would English be leaving cracks in? The Genesis Frog??? Pretty sure that wasn’t where they were in Act 7. Also want to point out the Meta Rivers and all that weren’t even a concept when the Epilogues were made.

To have a new key they would need to have had some form of changes tho.
They didn't become stronger or anything and were still below Caliborn-level right before the Lord English battle.

Well, the only one who went through any change was John (albeit barely, he was mostly just older)

(Characters like Dave or Davepeta could probably get the Aradia treatment but idk)

 

[Potemkat]

Then what other existence would English be leaving cracks in? The Genesis Frog??? Pretty sure that wasn’t where they were in Act 7. Also want to point out the Meta Rivers and all that weren’t even a concept when the Epilogues were made.

I mean it's more like characters cracking space doesn't mean they crack all of space.

I think they were in a Dream Bubble in Act 7?

The concept of rivers was hinted in Friendsim, which was before Epilogue I think.

Well, the only one who went through any change was John (albeit barely, he was mostly just older)

(Characters like Dave or Davepeta could probably get the Aradia treatment but idk)

Dave only harmed him because he had the sword tbf.

I think Davepeta^2 is already on God Tier level partially for this reason (since ^2 sprites are stronger than God Tiers in general and closer to Ultimate Self kinda)

 

[deonment]

I think they were in a Dream Bubble in Act 7?

They weren't what
It was straight up just the Furthest Ring

 

[Potemkat]

They weren't what
It was straight up just the Furthest Ring

Ghosts can only exist in Dream Bubbles iirc, and there were ghosts in the scene (Lord English was fighting the ghost army).

 

[FoxySonicMaster108]

The former two scans don't mean anything, while the latter is because he was in The Eplouges and ^2 at that time, so he couldn't exactly be there to deal with all that shit. Though one could say that they have Type 9 either way as the

Did you forget the last part (just wanna know what you trying to say there)

 

[deonment]

Did you forget the last part (just wanna know what you trying to say there)

Oh, I forgot to delete that as I realized what I was going to say didn't work out either way.
So yeah, no on Type 9 for ultimates

 

[FoxySonicMaster108]

Oh, I forgot to delete that as I realized what I was going to say didn't work out either way.
So yeah, no on Type 9 for ultimates

Ah, Unfortunate (I mostly only thought of it because, since the ultimate selves are “bodyless timeless persona’s that cross the boundaries of Paradox Space”, why would having there physical form killed, well, kill them since it’s just an avatar, ah well.

 

[FoxySonicMaster108]

Also want to bring up how Vriska literally states “I’m traveling to the furthest ring to go kill Lord English” even before Act 7, just wanted to point it out there. So yeah, reality/existence does refer to the furthest ring. On the same page she also says this: “See, somewhere out there in the incomprehensi8le causal-stew of the furthest ring, there was once a plan that was coming together to defeat him once and for all.” Referring to the ghosts and such.

 

[deonment]

Ah, Unfortunate (I mostly only thought of it because, since the ultimate selves are “bodyless timeless persona’s that cross the boundaries of Paradox Space”, why would having there physical form killed, well, kill them since it’s just an avatar, ah well.

Well, before they became ult tier, sure, however, once they become Ult Tier they literally become that persona itself, with them having their true essence within their Ult Tier body. And they can't body-jack other versions of themselves given 1)their body's cant withstand the essence of the ultimate self, and 2)They are the archetype of a given being, with every version of them emanating from their Ultimate Self

 

[FoxySonicMaster108]

Bump (honestly only thought of LE having resistance negation since John has resistance to Plot Manipulation, and since English’s poison is related to narrative relevance, why would that matter to John? Idk it’s kinda weird, then again he was affected by Ult. Dirk… Homestuck scaling sucks)

 

[Shmooply]

Dunno how I missed this. Following and will post my input later.

 

[FoxySonicMaster108]

bump (yet again)

 

[Withersoul_235]

Low 1-A depowered English seems fine to me. Who would scale to this key?

EDIT: I'm also iffy on Bec's Green Sun fire being 2-A.

 

[FoxySonicMaster108]

Low 1-A depowered English seems fine to me. Who would scale to this key?

John Egbert, Davepetasprite^2 and I think Dave Strider as well.

 

[Withersoul_235]

Sounds good to me. Just to be sure, the other Betas, and the Alphas, don't scale / aren't comparable to John and Dave, right?

 

[FoxySonicMaster108]

Sounds good to me. Just to be sure, the other Betas, and the Alphas, don't scale / aren't comparable to John and Dave, right?

Basically, anyone who didn't fight Lord English (The alpha kids and such) or characters that weren't killed in one shot (Rose & Jade) so yes, they wouldn't be comparable.

 

[FoxySonicMaster108]

bump

 

[deonment]

EDIT: I'm also iffy on Bec's Green Sun fire being 2-A.

It isn't just green sun fire, if you look at how it is depicted it is clearly some form of green sun empowered red miles, which would be 2-A

 

[FoxySonicMaster108]

bump again

 

[Therefir]

LE cracking reality is just space-time manipulation, it doesn't tell the range nor the size of this crack.

And he was being staggered by a bunch of 2-As who have no reason to be Low 1-A at this point.

 

[deonment]

LE cracking reality is just space-time manipulation, it doesn't tell the range nor the size of this crack.

And he was being staggered by a bunch of 2-As who have no reason to be Low 1-A at this point.

I, what?
This very much isn't just space-time manip and in addition, the scale doesn't matter, it's the fact that he cracked it with a simple roar if you damage a low 1-A structure you are Low 1-A, no way around it. In addition masterpiece caliborn already has other feats on that scale such as damaging the aspect of light, along with other god tiers manipulating the aspects which are low 1-A concepts
This scales to literally only John and Davepeta^2 as everyone else either gets one shot/does literally nothing or does not even fight him

 

[FoxySonicMaster108]

Honestly, I'm starting to rethink if Dave should scale, he could only be harming LE because of the sword. (Not to mention he gets one shot by LE later on in the fight.)

 

[Therefir]

I, what?
This very much isn't just space-time manip and in addition, the scale doesn't matter, it's the fact that he cracked it with a simple roar if you damage a low 1-A structure you are Low 1-A, no way around it. In addition masterpiece caliborn already has other feats on that scale such as damaging the aspect of light, along with other god tiers manipulating the aspects which are low 1-A concepts

... It's only a Low 1-A structure because of its size and nature, he would have to damage the whole thing to be Low 1-A, or I'm wrong about this?

That's like saying cracking reality is a Low 2-C feat because the world it's a Low 2-C structure, it ain't how it works.

This scales to literally only John and Davepeta^2 as everyone else either gets one shot/does literally nothing or does not even fight him

I recall Dave cutting/stabbing LE and drawing blood from him, and surviving being crushed under LE's foot.

 

[deonment]

... It's only a Low 1-A structure because of its size and nature, he would have to damage the whole thing to be Low 1-A, or I'm wrong about this?

That's like saying cracking reality is a Low 2-C feat because the world it's a Low 2-C structure, it ain't how it works.

Yes, because a fraction of low 1-A is still low 1-A if a character in another work managed to damage a low 1-C structure or character it would still be low 1-C

I recall Dave cutting/stabbing LE and drawing blood from him, and surviving being crushed under LE's foot.

He draws blood with a blade specifically noted to be LE's weakness and i don't remember the latter happening, what i remember is him getting his head bit clean off by LE

 

[Potemkat]

Yes, because a fraction of low 1-A is still low 1-A if a character in another work managed to damage a low 1-C structure or character it would still be low 1-C

That's not exactly right I think. A 3D rock is part of an InfinitD multiverse, but destroying the rock doesn't give you InfinitD power even if it's a very small fraction.

 

[y3p_owo]

Bump

 

[FoxySonicMaster108]

Bump again (I just noticed the John Egbert profile was unlocked for some reason.)

 

[Therefir]

Bump again (I just noticed the John Egbert profile was unlocked for some reason.)

I asked for it to be unlocked for some quality of life changes.

 

[Therefir]

As for the Low 1-A upgrade, I would recommend asking other supporters of the verse to give their opinion on the matter.

 

[Therefir]

@Ultima_Reality @CrimsonStarFallen Any input on this thread?

 

[y3p_owo]

Bump

 

[FoxySonicMaster108]

bump (Honestly, I don't think the other abilities are gonna get accepted aside from MSPA Reader Type 8, but other than that.)