Why aren't Tristan and Lancelot above Gawain?

[Lgamer099_99]

Tristan literally defeated a copy of Gawain, who was as strong as the original one at full power.

from 6:45 to 7:55

This totally makes sense, since in the Arthurian legends Tristan and Lancelot are equal to each other, the same Lancelot is considered to be the strongest knight of the Round Table and defeated Gawain in a fight.

I know that some characters think that Gawain is the strongest knight, but that's just a title, a reputation.

So why is Gawain Large Island level+ while Tristan only Island level?

 

[DragonEmperor23]

I thought in Nasu canon, Lancelot and Gawain fought to a draw.

 

[Lgamer099_99]

I thought in Nasu canon, Lancelot and Gawain fought to a draw.

Their fight was kinda equal, but Lancelot won at the end.
Lancelot and Tristan are slightly stronger than Gawain.

 

[LehenDuo]

I thought in Nasu canon, Lancelot and Gawain fought to a draw.

Gawain with x3 was physically stronger, but Lancelot could fight him to a standstill because of superior skill until the end of Gawain's boost -> Lancelot proceeds to win.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Not equal.

Lancelot fought Gawain for hours while he was under Numeral of the Saint, and then ended it when 3 hours passed and NotS disappeared.

Also, what is said in Arthurian Myth is highly irrelevant if it's not echoed or mentioned in the franchise. That argument doesn't work with a series that takes so many liberties even if they do use the legends (this is doubly so with Arthurian Legend and it's countless additions and versions).

Personally, am just not convinced. We have no clue how the fight went, and it contradicts Gawain saying in Camelot that Tristan cutting his head is doable in the Lion King's chambers where his Gift is not activated. That really doesn't imply at all that he can accomplish it if he's Sun Boosted.

If Lancelot boosted by Arondight had to stalemate a fight, and team of Servants have a hard time with him, Tristan pulling it off on his own makes little sense. This is no different from Nitocris interlude- her defeating the people who she defeats makes no sense, and she sure as hell doesn't have other feats in that level to justify it. Tristan isn't any different.

 

[Lgamer099_99]

I agree with Gawain being the physical strongest knight, but I don't understand why do you think that Tristan defeating him is inconsistent.
Tristan and Lancelot are just skilled enough to defeat him.
Characters' opinions and never seen fights are irrelevant when you have a direct fight between two characters.
Maybe Lancelot could have defeated Gawain even if he could use his full power all the day, we can't tell that.
The only thing 100% sure we know Is that Tristan defeated Gawain at full power and that Lancelot is the strongest knight.
The fact that some characters think Gawain is equal or superior to Lancelot is irrilevant, since it's just characters' opinions and doesn't reflect reality.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

"So why is Gawain Large Island level+ while Tristan only Island level?"

This is what you said. Gawain has Large Island level from multipliers while in NotS. Unless you got your wording wrong, this is pretty much asking why Tristan isn't comparable to NotS Gawain.

Lancelot had to put the entire battle into a standstill until NotS disappeared, despite getting buffed by Arondight. Entire Teams of Servants have trouble with buffed Gawain, and Gawain himself outright says in Camelot that Tristan can kill him because they are in the throne room where his Gift isn't working, so he doesn't have NotS, implying very directly he otherwise couldn't.

Nitocris also defeats Ozy and other Servants, at the same time, all on her own, in her Interlude. Doesn't stop being an outlier because it happened.

Maybe Lancelot could have defeated Gawain even if he could use his full power all the day, we can't tell that.

So let's completely disregard how the battle actually went, and assume something that has no proof.

You know what also doesn't reflect reality? Tristan being as powerful as entire teams of Servants, or more powerful than Lancelot using Arondight who had to wait until NotS disappeared.

I have no clue why inconsistency and anti-feats are so callously thrown by the wayside so commonly with Nasuverse stuff. "Well, the feat happened" Yeah, just like a metric ton of other feats that aren't used due to inconsistency and anti-feats. Nasuverse ain't special, rules are the same.

 

[Lgamer099_99]

Let's agree to disagree.
I mean, I can find Gawain's statement the inconsistent one, since facts >> statements and the fact is that Tristan defeated Gawain.
Tristan isn't of course as strong as an entire team of servants, but that's because he's an archer (so he has worse paramaters), while Gawain Is a saber and the strongest physical knight, so of course Gawain can defeat teams of servants and Tristan can not, but that doesn't mean at all that The Child of Sadness can't defeat the Sun Knight.

 

[LehenDuo]

Let's agree to disagree.
I mean, I can find Gawain's statement the inconsistent one, since facts >> statements and the fact is that Tristan defeated Gawain.
Tristan isn't of course as strong as an entire team of servants, but that's because he's an archer (so he has worse paramaters), while Gawain Is a saber and the strongest physical knight, so of course Gawain can defeat teams of servants and Tristan can not, but that doesn't mean at all that The Child of Sadness can't defeat the Sun Knight.

The only parameter that Tristan has that is bad is his Luck, so his parameters are definitely not limited by his Archer container, and he even has MR B. If anything. He is a Archer class with Saber stats.
Had him been any other class, he wouldn't be able to properly display Failnaught, which is the only true thing he has going for him...

 

[Lgamer099_99]

Tristan's description actually says that his class is saber, but that he is often summoned as "archer".

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Considering Gawain's statement is backed up by everything else, while Tristan literally only has his sole feat, and the Interludes have already had nonsensical stuff like Nitocris defeating Ozymandias and like 2 other Servants by her own, I would say "statement<<feat" really doesn't matter.

Also, stats have nothing to do with it really, not by themselves. Servants are a composite unit of many things: Their stats, their skills, their actual combat skills, and their NP. Lancelot would have had such stats in life, compounded with the power increase of Arondight, and all of his absurd skill - still had to stalemate until Gawain depowered. So again, very hard to believe at best.

 

[Lgamer099_99]

But how does all of that exclude the possibility of Tristan doing the same thing that Lancelot did against Gawain?

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

The fact that Tristan is not doing the same as Lancelot, he is accomplishing something even bigger - defeating him with NotS, instead of without it, by his own, without any scratch or seeming injury.

But without any of Lancelot's fanfare consisting of multiple statements about being the "perfect" knight, having a literal skill to show off that he is the most skilled dude of his entire era, having killed 3 of the knights safeguarding Guinevere so easily that 2 of those could easily be called a one shot (they were unarmed, but so was he) all at once, and needing another Knight like Agravain practically drugging himself until death to defeat him. Despite this, Agravain drags himself to the Lion King so battered that his guts are spilling out, and he is moments away from death.

"Inconsistent" is slapped all over the place when Tristan doesn't have a third of this shit and still accomplishes what Lancelot could not. Gawain's implication that he can only kill him because he doesn't have NotS has more backing than Tristan's sole feat. Tristan is even less lucky that Interludes have already shown pretty bullshit "wins", making veracity a further issue even without all this opposition.

 

[Lgamer099_99]

Tristan probably had injuries, but the game didn't show it because of mechanics.
And yeah, Lancelot was a monster, but so was Tristan. The problem is that Tristan was introduced later, so he never got all the hype the other knights received.
Also, didn't Tristan fought against Bedivere, Da Vinci and Mash all together? And he didn't lose.
Also, Gawain said that if It wasn't for his mortal injuries received from Lancelot, he would have easily defeated Mordred even at night.
So again, how can Mordred be Large Island level and Tristan only Island?

 

[LehenDuo]

So again, how can Mordred be Large Island level and Tristan only Island?

Because Clarent Blood Arthur.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

"Probably" doesn't work when there's no proof you can provide.

Uuuuh... Both Lancelot and Gawain had no shortage of hype and stuff thrown at them IN FGO. "They came earlier" is no excuse. And if all you have is original myths never mentioned or brought up in actual nasuverse, they aren't proof, they are conjecture.

I feel you haven't seen the profiles at all which is worrying. Mordred is that tier with her NP, not by herself. Gawain is the only one whose base power jumps a tier due to buffs.

 

[Lgamer099_99]

I mean, it's you who are trying to find excuses about something clear: Tristan defeated Full Power Gawain.
If other stuff happened BEFORE contradicts this, It means that there is a RETCON, nothing more, nothing less.
Does something that comes later contradicts this? I don't see It.
There was a retcon because at the beginning there were only Gawain and Lancelot, to introduce Tristan they retconned stuff and now Tristan and Lancelot are stronger than Gawain as in the Arthurian Legends.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Inconsistencies and anti feats are... excuses?

I really recommend you to get updated with how we do shit here, or you are really getting nowhere with these kind of arguments.

"it happened after therefore every single thing before is retconned" will genuinely, honestly never amount to much. Especially when your best piece of added proof is "he was this strong in the legends", when those things have not been mentioned whatsoever in Fate. This is no different from Demonbane not being 1-A just because it uses Lovecraft's creations. The IRL legends only matter as much as the stuff adapted into Fate, if it's not an adapted detail it basically doesn't exist. And if it didn't exist in Garden of Avalon of all places, because I sure as shit don't remember anything about Tristan being the bestest and the strongerest in there, I really don't expect any of it

 

[Lgamer099_99]

Let's agree to disagree. I will wait for the others' opinion.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Same with Lance, i'm not convinced here so i disagree

 

[Lgamer099_99]

I have this last argument.

Re-watching the video, Tristan defeats Full Power Gawain alongside the master, so he probably got a boost by his master magic.
But, well, Tristan should still be at least comparable, likely equal to Full Power Gawain.
Why you say? There are these statements:

"The knights sitting around the table were all regarded as equal to one another, including the King himself, and they were admired throughout the country."

If that's not enough:

"From among eleven of the knights (with King Arthur and Galahad excluded), the one most compatible to the Master is summoned through it. Like an S-rare definite ticket. Whether it be someone like Lancelot, Gawain, Tristan or Percival, no matter who comes, you truly get the cream of the crop."

This totally makes sense with:

>Tristan defeating Full Power Gawain alongside his master.
>Lancelot fightning to a stalemate Full Power Gawain and defeating him at night.
>Tristan being equal to Lancelot in every version of the Legend.

 

[Ionliosite]

I agree with LSirLancelot.

 

[Lgamer099_99]

Re-watching the video, Tristan defeats Full Power Gawain alongside the master, so he probably got a boost by his master magic.
But, well, Tristan should still be at least comparable, likely equal to Full Power Gawain.
Why you say? There are these statements:

"The knights sitting around the table were all regarded as equal to one another, including the King himself, and they were admired throughout the country."


"From among eleven of the knights (with King Arthur and Galahad excluded), the one most compatible to the Master is summoned through it. Like an S-rare definite ticket. Whether it be someone like Lancelot, Gawain, Tristan or Percival, no matter who comes, you truly get the cream of the crop."

@LSirLancelotDuLacl do you have some proofs against these official statements? Because Tristan defeating Gawain alongside Master+ these statements I found seems pretty solid to me.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

He wouldn't have any boost by the Master's magic. Unless you wanna say Tristan summoned by the Lion King is weaker than Tristan under Ritsuka, which is absurd. Servants don't get any stronger after they get enough mana to have their full power, no matter how much more mana you jack into them. Or you mean the master buffing him when you say "Master's Magic"? Which you would need to prove happened and wouldn't scale to his base stats.

"The knights sitting around the table were all regarded as equal to one another, including the King himself, and they were admired throughout the country."

So now Bedivere is comparable to all of the Knights of the Round, despite the fact he needed an artifact that burned out his soul and boosted him way above his normal physical ability to match them at all.

This quote isn't about power, it's about status. Even if you wanted to argue it is about power,, Bedivere's entire existence invalidates the quote having worth. He's not an equal powerhouse to any of the Knights, and Mordred isn't equal to Gawain who would flatten her even without Sun Boost, and almost all the Knights aren't equal to Lancelot who stalemated Sun Boosted Gawain for hours. Let's not even bring up Galahad.

The second quote is equally worthless. All of the Knights are strong Servants. No matter who you get, you are getting a powerful new warrior. How this translates to them being completely equal in any way whatsoever, I am not sure. And if they are equal... how does Tristan beat someone equal to him, boosted by 3? If we use your own statements, it makes no sense.

 

[Lgamer099_99]

So now Bedivere is comparable to all of the Knights of the Round, despite the fact he needed an artifact that burned out his soul and boosted him way above his normal physical ability to match them at all.

This quote isn't about power, it's about status. Even if you wanted to argue it is about power,, Bedivere's entire existence invalidates the quote having worth. He's not an equal powerhouse to any of the Knights, and Mordred isn't equal to Gawain who would flatten her even without Sun Boost, and almost all the Knights aren't equal to Lancelot who stalemated Sun Boosted Gawain for hours. Let's not even bring up Galahad.

Bedivere is regarded as an exception and the only normal human among knights. Mordred too wasn't considered on par with the other knights. The others, are all considered on the same league of strength.

And if they are equal... how does Tristan beat someone equal to him, boosted by 3? If we use your own statements, it makes no sense.

Because they're overall equal...