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When Creators Cries: Answer Arcs (yes it's a downgrade)

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So.

It happens that Ultima and I both kinda prefer this thread with an actual conclusion, so we're re-opening it.

Basically just going to continue the debates stuff rather than stopping at whatever this forced closure was.
0d4.jpg
 
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Then the thread would have been closed a while ago tbh. There are more disagreeing votes than agreeing ones. I think he himself even said that it needs discussion, not just random "I agree" or "I disagree" comments.
Well imo keeping track of them could have been beneficial still, but yes that's a valid point
 
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Well imo keeping track of them could have been beneficial still, but yes that's a valid point
I do think that having the agree to disagree vote count thing would definitely make it easier to count stuff and just organizes things a little better. But it should be fine regardless. As long as the thread doesn't just get closed randomly
 

QuasiYuri

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Why is this thread still so dead?
It obviously won't become a storm just because it reopened. Ultima still has ongoing threads as well.

Tho regarding votes listing I did a quick check and there's actually not that much disagreement diff between agreement and disagreement.

Although if someone want to discuss Creators or tiering they should start it themselves, since as far as it goes, Ultima and I really just disagree on a little Third Domain issue and witches concepts thing, with the latter likely not being too far of its end once I check some stuff.
 
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Although if someone want to discuss Creators or tiering they should start it themselves, since as far as it goes, Ultima and I really just disagree on a little Third Domain issue and witches concepts thing, with the latter likely not being too far of its end once I check some stuff.
Oh, nvm then.
 
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As a side note, I'm not "really" back. Like, I'm just finishing this thread, and I'll occasionally give a small opinion on threads or answers Q&A n stuff to help dudes.

Mainly here because some headcanons are used outside vs debatting with this wiki as source and this world is way too small to just ignore those with another opinion.
How about the universe CRT you did? Are you not going to work on that also?
 

QuasiYuri

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How about the universe CRT you did? Are you not going to work on that also?
Eeeeh, I could and it would surely improve the quality of the standards.

But then a lot of people either misunderstood the thread, or ended up discussing unrelated ideas which were as far as possible from the main goal (there was like, only one clear agreement and disagreement) so it would mean making another one? Not like thr standards will ever be perfect so idk.
 
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Eeeeh, I could and it would surely improve the quality of the standards.

But then a lot of people either misunderstood the thread, or ended up discussing unrelated ideas which were as far as possible from the main goal (there was like, only one clear agreement and disagreement) so it would mean making another one? Not like thr standards will ever be perfect so idk.
Okay, I understand but I was looking forward it.
 
1-B for Witches
1-B/High 1-B for Great Witches and Feath's self insert
1-A for Creators

Ultima and I are still discussing the Great Witches point, although the rest is p much settled.
And about the creators part does that mean their are multiple glowing dudes ?
and does that mean tloi > creator/creators ?
 

QuasiYuri

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And about the creators part does that mean their are multiple glowing dudes ?
and does that mean tloi > creator/creators ?
You can either see them as formless non existent white dudes or as big nerds doing mangas. Or just as a legal Maria + Featherine.

Given how Ichiban's downgrade going, unlikely.
High 1-A being bad, TLOI would at very best being the same baseline 1-A as them.
 
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1-B/High 1-B for Great Witches and Feath's self insert
1-A for Creators
Where does the High 1-B come from?

Also I would really hate to make a different CRT for it so might as well discuss it here as well. What exactly makes the creators 1-A? Just merely being above a hierarchy doesn't jump from High 1-B to 1-A. We know from multiple in-verse contexts that the realm is reached by the ladder hierarchy and isn't Inaccessible to it. And the only defense it has for being 1-A is just some vague philosophical descriptions that would hold just as true if it were merely the top layer of the verse instead of being inaccessible to the hierarchy. So why exactly? Especially when some characters like SCP 3812 face harsh standards over similar things. I can't help but feel it's just for the sake of keeping the 1-A label for the verse.
 
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Where does the High 1-B come from?

Also I would really hate to make a different CRT for it so might as well discuss it here as well. What exactly makes the creators 1-A? Just merely being above a hierarchy doesn't jump from High 1-B to 1-A. We know from multiple in-verse contexts that the realm is reached by the ladder hierarchy and isn't Inaccessible to it. And the only defense it has for being 1-A is just some vague philosophical descriptions that would hold just as true if it were merely the top layer of the verse instead of being inaccessible to the hierarchy. So why exactly? Especially when some characters like SCP 3812 face harsh standards over similar things. I can't help but feel it's just for the sake of keeping the 1-A label for the verse.
Infinite R>F dimensional hierarchy is High 1B, that's where the High 1B comes from, being outside the ladder would grant low 1A/1A
 
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Infinite R>F dimensional hierarchy is High 1B, that's where the High 1B comes from, being outside the ladder would grant low 1A/1A
I was asking for great witches. They don't exist at the top of the ladder(which is the creator). And merely transcending a hierarchy doesn't jump to 1-A. Low 1-A is fine though ig
 
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I was asking for great witches. They don't exist at the top of the ladder(which is the creator). And merely transcending a hierarchy doesn't jump to 1-A. Low 1-A is fine though ig
Someone like aurora is a great witch and she is at the last bound of the said hierarchy, that is enough for High 1B
 
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You know, Ultima once said A character/Higher Spaces(cosmological structures) that transcends High-1B in the same way High-1B transcends 10-B (or 7A) is also just High-1B but to a much higher degree (R^Omega+omega, still very far from Low-1A which is R^R)
 

Sus

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Ladies and Gentlemen, I complained about some Umineko stuff for quite some times now ever since the big revision we did, and it's time to do more than complaining.

Thanks to anyone who helped, either directly or indirectly.

Anyway, I know it'll obviously be a controversial thread, but since I'm moving tommorow it would be very nice of you to not overflow the thread with "just commenting to watch" or "oh boy it's gonna be good" as well as derailing. Just hit the Watch button if needed. Otherwise I'll delete any derailling comments if they happen to prevent stuff from going well.
I could have done the thread later, but hey, impulse makes everything

The Creator or what mistranslation does to mfs

It's been quite some times since I claimed that The Creator wasn't a singular being, but rather a title. Sadly me being right on everything isn't universal knowledge yet it was a poor, old CRT before we even revised Umineko.
"Kami Tenchi" and "EGD" were exposed as inventions (or misconceptions in the first case) in threads regarding their verses, and now is the time for one of the most used mistranslation in VS debatting, "The Creator".

Memoirs of Lambdadelta english translation and how 造物主 is cruelly misinterpreted in this​

Across all of Umineko, including manga and extra stories, we only see "The Creator" being formulated that way a single time in the entire verse, which is in this sentence of the english version of Memoirs of Lambdadelta. It is the only single sentence who ever used the term 造物主 in that way.

Now when you see this, you immediately think "they are clearly differenciating the gods from this singular being. It is the only one referred as singular and it is even made into its own sentence."

The problem is: the translation was likely handled by a different team from the ones doing ep 1 to 8, and they seem to fail to grasp the context + they seemingly didn't make a good translation.

Our Creator page says that Creators can't be a thing, because japanese has no plural so it can't be a plural term. Except this is obviously wrong. I think it's quite common knowledge on anyone dealing with jap series such as WTC that japanese's way to define gender or plural is context and/or suffix.

One of the most common misconceptions is that 造物主 is read as "The Creator" as in, a single, monotheistic God. While it can be translated as a singular thing, it is a common mistake of machine translators for it to be taken as singular despite the word not having any difference between its singular and plural form.
In addition to that, the term itself is used to refers to the 3 divinity of Shintoism, as reported by japanese wikipedia (yes, the kanji used in the title are different, but that's because 造物主 redirects to it since it's the exact same meaning), meaning the word in itself isn't a proof of plurality nor singularity.

Now, let's look at this scene, everything looks normal, right? Except you have a part of the extent that just got removed, which you can found in the japanese transcript on japanese Umineko wiki right there (it is also in the japanese version of the VN as well as both the japanese and english version of the manga, during Lambda-Sayo exchange, so it's definitely something acknowledged in both medium). Although there's fanpatchs which corrected that part, so I'll not divulge too much into "lol bad" territory.

「はい、自分はもう、魔女です。自分が求めるものはたったひとつ。自分と異なる魔女に
よる、自分を魔女だと認めるとの推薦だけです。」

 それはまさに、あの少女と同じ願い。

Is the screen that ends with "same wish as that little girl".
But after, that Lambda is supposed to say this in the next screen (with Sayo's response, which you see in the screen, being after the sentence).

「……実にたくましい魔女だこと。なるほどね、あなたがそうだと自称する限り、誰にも
あなたが魔女でないと否定することは出来ないでしょうね。……でも聞かせて欲しいの。
神も造物主も、誰に認められずとも神であり造物主よ? そしてそれは魔女も同じはず。
…誰が認めずともあなたが魔女であるならば、私が認めずともあなたは魔女であるはず。
そうでしょう?」


See how Lambdadelta's sentence ends with a very off "but tell me." in the english sentence? Well, all the part in bold is what she's meant to say, but isn't here in the english version. It roughly translates as:

"Let me ask you that then. Aren't god(s) and creator(s) still god(s) and creator(s) without anyone to recognize them? And that is the same for witches. In that case, if you are a witch without anyone's approval, then you don't need my approval to be a Witch. Am I right?"

Lambdadelta doesn't put "Creator" as something better than Gods and there's no indication of it being a monotheistic being above the rest. Although the point here is that the translation clearly has its problems.

Now when you compare it to the one for the main EPs... they always see Creators as a group of individual or a title, and never referred to 造物主 as "The Creator" in any way. Hell, you even have stuff like "two Creators" being said (although it was a comparison).

So with this, I demonstrated that "The Creator" is a one off thing from a seemingly worse translation than the main EPs. Now I'm sure there's people who could say stuff like "yeah they removed a sentence but it doesn't mean the first team is right or the second wrong", so we'll do more than that by using the japanese version as well as some supplementary materials!

Concrete proof that "Creator" is a title for some dudes (and Featherine is one of them)​

So our cosmology blog have a fan-translation supposed to "correct" the official one, by replacing every mention of Creators as plural (or "a Creator") by The Creator. But as explained above, there's no given reason to do such a thing, and japanese is all about context.

But from if you look at the Creators TIPS, nothing can tell you if it talks about singular or plural, right? Well, the answer is that the context is given by the previous TIPS, the one about voyagers (here's the transcript of the official english translation).
Short summary for those who don't know about these: EP4 TIPS have 3 of them following each others, basically explaining the hierarchy between witches and stuff. The Witches' TIPS (about Territory Lord) ends with a short mention of voyagers and how Lambda/Bern are part of them; and the Voyagers one ends with an explanation that witches higher than Voyagers are called Creators.

航海者より高位の魔女は、造物主と呼ばれる. being the part that says this very sentence. (Oh, and in case someone might says the verb is up to interpretation, it is read as "yobareru", which is the passive form of "yobu", which means to "to call"; here it means "to be called". And the only other part that isn't the names of Witches/Voyagers/Creators is より高位 which means higher than/of a higher order than... -here being witches of a higher order than voyagers-).

Since japanese is defined by context, and context uses a plural group of individuals here, it means Creators is also supposed to be read as a group of individuals in its own TIPS.

But there's more to it. Besides small stuff like Beatrice talking about ascending to the "status of Creator" (造物主の座にさえ 上りつめるだろう, with ぞうぶつしゅ being the kana form of the kanji for Creators), you have the all-too-famous scan of Featherine reaching the status Creator / becoming a Creator, which we dismiss because of... a scan saying she reached it.

Like seriously, it doesn't talk about any last boundary stopping here, they said she reached the highest, forbidden heights, which in lore is what "Kingdom of Gods" is. Any stuff like being the last boundary of another domain is just people trying to justify something that doesn't need to.

And then you have the last and maybe biggest thing, Ryushiki07's own explanations regarding Featherine and Creators, which are basically everything you need to prove this point even more.
Question 1 and 2 are basically saying Featherine writes the world and is Ryushiki07 "i'm strong af" self insert, which he calls the strongest character. But what's interresting are question 3 to 5, that talk about what is Featherine's nature, why Voyagers fear becoming Creators, and also kind of an explanation of "Maria being the strongest Creator" statement in the story.

Auau type of existence

  • Question 3:そもそもフェザリーズとは、どういう存 在なのでしょう?
    • A『Ep6』のTipsで、フェザリーヌ が「生き死にを繰り返している」とあったのは、 フェザリーヌ自身が駒だった頃、自分たちも 誰かにライティングされている登場人物であ るという事実を知り、自由意志と信じて疑 わなかったことが、誰かにライティングされ ている物だと気づいたために死んじゃったん ですよね。でも彼女は、自らもライターとな って帰ってきた。 そして恥も外聞もなく、自 分の作品の中に自分を描くことで真の自由 意志を得た。彼女は今、リレーマンガのよ うな世界にいるのかもしれないですね。自 分のキャラは自分で書くけど、それ以外は 複数のライターが書いているような世界に 存在しているのかもしれません。
  • Question 3: What kind of existence is Featherine anyway?
    • A:In the tips of Ep6, it was said that Featherine "constantly repeats a cycle of life and death." When Featherine herself was a piece, she realized that she was a character being written by someone, and what she had believed to be free will was being written by someone else. That's why she died. But she came back as a writer herself and found true free will by drawing herself in her own work, without shame or embarrassment. She may now be in a world of relay manga. She may exist in a world where she writes her own characters, but other characters are written by several writers.
  • Question 4:航海者が造物主になるのを恐れるとい うのは、そのあたりに由来するのでしょうか?
    • A:そうですね。 マンガって読んで いるときは面白いけど、いずれ読み飽きち ゃう。でも白いノートを与えられて自分で書いていれば無限に遊べるので、マンガを読 むより遙かに面白いかもしれない。ただし、 自分のアイデアが枯渇したり、描く行為に 飽きたら終わりますよね。しかも自分(作者) の望まないような展開やキャラクターは生ま れてこない。造物主というのは何でも生み 出せるが故につまらない生き物ですよ。
  • Question 4:Is that where the Voyager's fear of becoming a Creator comes from?
    • A:That's right. Manga is interesting when you read it, but eventually, you get tired of reading it. But if you are given a blank notebook and write in it yourself, you can play with it endlessly, which is much more interesting than reading manga. However, if you run out of ideas or get bored with the act of drawing, it's over. Moreover, you (the artist) will not be able to create characters or developments that you do not want. A Creator is a boring creature because they can create anything they want.
  • Question 5:------ 他人が作った面白い話を読めなくなる んですね。
    • A:造物主でないほうが、TVの前 に座っていればどんどん物語を見ることが できるのと同じで楽なんですよ。人間は、 自分が誰かの作品の登場人物であることす ら自覚しておらず、自由意志によって行動 していると信じているので、一番気楽な存 在です。一方でベルンやラムダたちは、チャンネ ルを自由に変えたり、ときどきシナリオライ ターに注文をつけて、話に介入できる階層。 ただし介入すると物語が変わってしまうの で、その事実はギリギリまで知らないふりを している。 フェザリーヌは、そこに踏み込ん で死んでしまったんでしょう。 白紙のノート に妄想するのは楽しいけど、そこにずっと話 を書き続けるのはかなりしんどいので、魔 女は死んでしまうわけですね。魔女というの は、「自分たちは、誰かの創作物じゃないか」 ということに気づき始めていて、なおかつ 異なる創作物を閲覧できる立場にいる者で、 上に行けば行くほど執筆者の立場に近づい ていき、本当に執筆者の域まで到達すると 終わってしまう。真里亞が「原初の魔女」と 呼ばれた理由は、飽きることなく、ゼロから ドンドンとアイデアや世界を膨らませていけ るからなんです。
  • Question 5:---You won't be able to read interesting stories made by others
    • A:It's easier to not be a creator, just like it's easier to sit in front of the TV and watch more and more stories. Humans are the most comfortable because they don't even know they are characters in someone else's work, and they believe they are acting of their own free will. On the other hand, Bern, Lambda, and the rest of the hierarchy can intervene in the story by changing the channel at will and occasionally giving orders to the scenario writer. However, they pretend not to know this fact until the very last minute, because it would change the story. I think that's what killed Featherine. It's fun to fantasize in a blank notebook, but it's very hard to keep writing stories in it, so the witch dies. Witches are those who have begun to realize that they are someone else's creation, and they are in a position to view different creations. The reason why Maria was called "the Witch of Origins" is because she can expand her ideas and world from scratch without ever getting bored.
To summarise all the big infos here: Creators are the writers of the world (those who create fate, to take Lambdadelta's Memoirs words), Featherine is one of them and her avatars (witch, human, etc... selves) are her self-inserts, there are several writers, Voyagers fear boredom (after all it is their main disease) and Creators are booring af, they know about stuff but pretend they don't, Voyagers are those who know they are under someone's control but don't want to be the one under for this reason, and Maria is the Witch of Origins and all because she would never get bored, which is what it means to be the strongest Creator in the verse's context.

Overall, it establish without a single doubt that Creator is a title granted to several beings, whom Featherine is part of.

As such, we should delete "The Creator"'s page, change Featherine's last key to give her Creator stuff, yeet this note from the world, change any justification using "The Creator" and update the cosmology + verse pages accordingly.

Quite a big change already, isn't it? Well, there's more!

The Third Domain, the infinite ladder and their headcanons​

So now that we introduced the quite important Q&A and Creator info, it actually helps to tackle even more things.

A ladder is quite a big thing​


So the basis of High 1-B or p much anything involving 1-A comes from a single thing: Lambdadelta talking about an infinite ladder with infinite steps, which we consider to be restricted to the Witch Domain.
Well, I'm here to challenge this notion, and explains how it just can't be as limited as we think it is.

I would first get your attention to this specific scene, especially the sentences that appear on the first screen appearing since the timestamp.

In this english translation, Lambdadelta says that all beings can be put between two extremes, the extremes being the lowest part of the Human Domain, and the highest being the "Kingdom of God", with the infinite ladder being for everything in between, nowhere does it says that it is restricted to the Witch Domain, just that they are around "the middle". While the Witch world is part of that infinite ladder, the opposite doesn't have to be true.

Not convinced? Well, there's more to support that.

This statement is pretty much the same in the japanese version, being 全ての存在は、運命に翻弄される側と運命を生み出す側の二極の間のどこかに位置していると説明できる。

However the kanji translated as being there is 存在, which has another meaning, existence. As shown prior, Lambdadelta Memoirs is really badly translated, and the specific part of the sentence 全ての存在は can be commonly read as all of existence, making the idea that Lambda's talking not only about the Witch Domain even stronger.

In addition to that, you can't say that Lambda didn't know about Featherine's study or about anything outside the Witch Domain either, since she's the one who litteraly gave us the information about it for the very first time, meaning she knows about it all too well, and yet still think this ladder is for all of existence and not just her domain.

What it means is that the Witch Domain would actually only hold a finite amount of layers, and that the only character who may qualify for scaling to an infinite amount being avatar Feath.

But before any rebuttals using the Third Domain, please read the two others parts.

New layers in a new domain?​

With the idea of a Third Domain (which is how people decided to nickname where City of Books and Aurora's Study are, something I'll talk about in the next part) was born the idea of infinite new layers of a hierarchy.
My arguments will be against the hierarchy proposed in our current cosmology blog known as "3rd Domain Hierarchy".

First thing is: it clashes with Lambdadelta explanation, which only mention a single ladder for everything up to Creator. She knows about the Senate, she knows about the City of Books, she knows about Featherine's Study, she knows about Gods and Creators, yet never once did she made a difference between anything under Kingdom of God regarding the ladder. They all are mere layers of a single big ladder and it doesn't make sense for her to not say anything about it.

But wait, let's see what are the scans used to prove a new hierarchy, and an infinite one, at that.

Ignoring the first scan which just says that Featherine>Witches, the second one uses a sentence talking about Beatrice "stepping in her level".

Here's the japanese version of that exact part in the screen.

その意味において、自らの魔法体系を組み上げた彼女は、魔女としては初心の部類に入りながらも、その域は魔女をすでに凌駕して、…貴方の域にまで踏み込み掛けていると言えるかもしれない。

The part that was translated as "step into" is 踏み込み which does mean that, but just in a "to get into" way. It isn't talking about any kind of layers, and is just another way of saying "I think she's starting to become a witch of your caliber / of the same level as you". There's no cosmological implication regarding this sentence, making the thing already pretty shaky, but then you have the proof of a new infinite hierarchy which is...

"Voyagers journey having no endpoint". I don't think there's a need to get the japanese on this one. Featherine was a Voyager and ended as Creator per Ryushiki07's words (see the part using the interview) so it's just flowery language.
Besides, this statement comes from a TIPS before anyone even talked about Featherine's world, and seeing it as referring to that makes no sense (given Voyagers aren't living there and have no business having their journey there for most of them), and is obviously referring to them ascending the layers of the infinite ladder the way Lambdadelta explained in her Memoirs.

As such, there's no second hierarchy, and the ladder extent to the entire verse except the "Kingdom of Gods". I think there's no hiding that it'll affect the tier of the verse, but I'll only talk about such matter at the very end.

Now, to our next issue.

City of Books, where are thou? (featuring Lambda/Bern stuff)​


Lambda/Bern aren't encompassing everything dude​


Quoting the CRT who made it happen, we have a key for Voyagers which is based on them being "abstract and universal laws that cover the entirety of the witch domain" which later got extended to including the "Third Domain".
Not mentionning the fact that we have no scan about it and that most of it is just taking bits of statements like Golden Fantasia having Lambda saying the world is meant to entertain them (which, as seen in the interview, makes more sense for it to be like someone watching a TV, not them being the entire world); it contradicts Lambda Memoirs again but also Umineko in general.

The true, undeniable Lambdadelta flat out says she isn't anywhere done with the infinite ladder, and also stated a screen prior that witches were in the middle of it. In her Memoirs, which obviously apply to her true self.
The japanese is kind of similar besides possibly taking "witches higher than me" as being used to refer to Beato eventually going to surpass her because she doesn't have fear.

Anyway, as of now in Umineko, Bernkastel is stated to be below Lambdadelta several times and she likely would have lost their fight if not for Feath's intervening, so this also apply to her.

Besides, it should be mentionned that what we were doing is saying that somehow, Bern and Lambda already finished ascending this ladder and were in fact on the same level as Featherine's manifestation, which makes no sense.

As such, we should just follow what the work tells us, and remove this nonsensical key.

Third Domain, Featherine's study, and City of Book​

First things first, the "Third Domain" is a headcanon. Nowhere in any of the medium was it ever referred as a domain or anything like that. The only thing we have is Featherine's Study being outside of the Witch Domain, which would just be its own realm just like how you can have stuff between Human/Witch Domain.

Now, we are under the idea that the City of Books is at the top of the ladder because of this transition showing Feath's study in it.

And well, I guess it can be a proof?
But I think it is kind of a strecth to put others witches on Featherine's (self-insert?) level based on this. The Senate are the strongest witches in existence, and "hardly different from gods and creators", but they are still witches, which means they are still in the ladder. Since Lambdadelta, a witch of the Senate, still thinks she has a long way to go before reaching the end of the ladder, the Senate not being at the end of it looks more logic. And as hown prior, said ladder only stops at the "Kingdom of Gods", so it's more coherent that way.

Another minor problem I have is the fact that the Tea Party used seems to have Feath writing and talking to someone which would be another Creator based on how there's a being emphasis on Feath talking to "nothing", "no one", etc... and how it echoes Ryushiki07 equaling Creators with Writers or his talk about what Feath does in Question 3, which would imply that Feath's Study is closer to the "Kingdom of Gods" than the City of Book.

However this last argument is shaky af, so I only want to propose to keep City of Books and Feath Study above Witch Domain, but still on the ladder, as their own thing and not a part of an invention such as this "Third Domain".
At best, I think the City of Books scaling to her study may warrant a "possibly" if there's a need for it to have it; but that's just preferences on this one, so you can ignore it.

I intended to include a part about Oblivion, but eh, I'm lazy, so let's see how it affects tiering.

"Wow, Yuri's revision ends up being a downgrade, how surprising​

Surprise no surprise, everything I said will downgrade the verse quite a lot.

To summarise the current tiering reasonning for the Meta Beings, here how it is:

  • Dudes in 1-B are in the Witch Domain, since they are in the middle of an infinite ladder made of infinite layers; but the layer they are on is unkown
  • Those in High 1-B are at the end of the Witch Domain or already started leaving it; because we think that the infinite ladder is restricted to this domain only
  • 1-A is for those above the Witch Domain
  • 1-A+ is because, since Voyagers' journey has no end, it means there's an infinite hierarchy to a new domain between the witch and creator domain.
  • High 1-A is for Feath, because she's above everyone in this domain and sustain stuff; but we don't consider her to be a Creator
  • Tier 0 is for Maria and The Creation, who are above Feath and everything in existence to the point of lacking limitations entirely.

Now let's take this, but with the new infos we used and the changements they bring

  • Dudes in 1-B are in the Witch Domain, since they are in the middle of an infinite ladder made of infinite laders but the layer they are on is unkown
  • Since the ladder extents to everything up to the Creator and doesn't have to stop at the Witch Domain, being at the end of it is just higher in 1-B
  • At least 1-B for being above the Witch Domain
  • There's no second hierarchy or anything, with the Voyagers stuff not hinting toward any form of new cosmological structure and its the same place as the one for the higher 1-B so... yeah, another big 1-B
  • Feath is a Creator therefore her true self can't be used to scale Creators. However there's a possibily that the Great Witches and the Self Insert are riiiiight at the very last layer, even if Erika's statement is to be more "it's so fucking high it doesn't make a difference where they are"; meaning those in the City of Books could be seen as possibly High 1-B. Also Oblivion would likely scale to High 1-B as well, since it's the void background of existence.
  • Gods and Creators, such as Featherine and Full Potential Maria are beyond the entire ladder and lacks all form of limitations, making them reach the honorable tier of 1-A.
How Featherine's Study fit in it can be debatted between 1-B and 1-A; although the highest end seems unlikely.

End of the golden thread​

To summarise, we need to:

  • Yeet "The Creator" page and anything keeping the idea of such a being existing from all the profiles. Then we have to change the profiles to show how Creators truly are.
  • The infinite ladder extents to all of existence and not just Witch Domain, it is an important thing which would be taken into account for the cosmology
  • There's no other hierarchy than the ladder and we should stop using fan stuff like "Third Domain", which sets a bad precedent. Just say "City of Books" and "Feath Study"
  • Voyagers aren't encompassing all of existence, with Lambdadelta saying they are in the middle and even the strongest witches just being veeeery high in the ladder
  • Changing the tiers accordingly, which gives what I proposed prior.

I'm planning another little CRT about magic and oblivion, but I guess I just like to do the big ones first.
AAaAaAAAAAAAANNNd

Sorry umnieko, but I'm leaning towards agreement here
 
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The Ladder is the journey that witches use in their endeavors, regardless of what the outcome of this is, the High 1-B reasoning for everyone that has, will still have, such as Beatrice, Battler, and the Witches from Senate such as Bern and Lambda (that helps to maintain the barrier around the highest fragment, besides the senate itself is said to be the highest existence in the sea of fragments) they have their proper contexts at the top of the ladder in episode 8. The Third domain is 1-A via be described as outside all the restrictions that built the witches' world. Though, here still has the misleading view that the third domain (third pole) is before the world of the Gods.
 
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The Third domain is 1-A via be described as outside all the restrictions that built the witches' world.
But the hierarchy itself is centred around removal of restrictions. Having no restrictions merely means it's at the top, not above the system of the hierarchy
 
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But the hierarchy itself is centred around removal of restrictions. Having no restrictions merely means it's at the top, not above the system of the hierarchy
Not really, cuz the top is a layer, which is still a restriction. Besides the fact that the depths are said to be all the background that supports this framework, and when you go through it you get out of the restrictions that is the ladder--the world of witches.
 

QuasiYuri

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Not really, cuz the top is a layer, which is still a restriction. Besides the fact that the depths are said to be all the background that supports this framework, and when you go through it you get out of the restrictions that is the ladder--the world of witches.
Except the ladder isn't stated to end at the end of the World of Witches. It encompasses all of existence, with Humans being below everything and Creators above everything.

Besides, Lambdadelta, a Witch of the Senate, is far from the end of it as well.
 
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Not really, cuz the top is a layer, which is still a restriction. Besides the fact that the depths are said to be all the background that supports this framework, and when you go through it you get out of the restrictions that is the ladder--the world of witches.
Yea, and the layer above the top removes the last restriction, hence it's outside the hierarchy. Doesn't mean it would qualify for an Inaccessible jump. Also being a background literally means nothing because all layers act as background for lower layers.
 
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Except the ladder isn't stated to end at the end of the World of Witches. It encompasses all of existence, with Humans being below everything and Creators above everything.

Besides, Lambdadelta, a Witch of the Senate, is far from the end of it as well.
It is said. The ladder ends in the depths of the oblivion, the depths of the sea of fragments, that ends in the senate. Witches of Senate are the end of it, they're the highest existence there. When a Witch cross over the depths they go beyond all restriction and cease to be in the current one, and transcends over to the next domain/pole, that is the world of creators/gods.
 

QuasiYuri

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It is said. The ladder ends in the depths of the oblivion, the depths of the sea of fragments, that ends in the senate. Witches of Senate are the end of it, they're the highest existence there.
The ladder is said to encompass everything below the two extremes. It never made any exception like "actually it's only a witch domain thing".

Unless you put the Senate before the Creators and on the same level or beyond Great Witches.
 
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The ladder is said to encompass everything below the two extremes. It never made any exception like "actually it's only a witch domain thing".

Unless you put the Senate before the Creators and on the same level or beyond Great Witches.
The ladder is said to encompass every layer below the two extremes, that's just how a framework works. Still, the highest layer of that framework is the Senate, after them, there are just the depths. Senate being before the Creators realm's is what I'm saying from the start, it is the last boundaries before one falls into the depths and then in the world of creators. Besides, it can't be on the same level or beyond Great Witches, you yourself stated that this was relative, besides of course the fact that Great Witches from planes that see the city of books like a hazy foggy are no different than Creators.
 
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Just pointing out again what I had said earlier that nobody debunked so far.

1. Human Domain
2. Witch Domain (Sea of Fragments, part of the depths)
3. Creators Domain, where Featherine sees the witch domain as fiction (pieces overlaid in her chessboard), and granted that all the reasoning below is impossible to the Depths exists inside the Creators Domain, and follows the same logic as the world of Gap being the underside of the Witch Domain Chessboard, then the depths should be likely the underside of Creators's Chessboard.
1. The ascension of the voyagers ends at the end point, the depths of oblivion:
彼女らの航海に終点はなぐ、むしろ終点から逃れるための旅だとすら言い切れるかもしれない。⇨ Their voyage has no end point; in fact, it is might said that they're on a journey to escape the end point.
2. The narrative of episode 8 discursively states that Witches of the far higher planes are Creators, and later it is said that the whole territory of the witches is just a gameboardto Featherine, in the same way that the human domain is a gameboard for the witches. And in spite of that, this already debunks the argument that the sea of fragments and the oblivion reaches the third domain, hence, and again; that's why this whole territory is just a gameboard for the third domain.

Granted that, do note that voyagers know the entire length of the sea of fragments, particularly Bernkastel who has access to the Depths of Oblivion, and when she is summoned by Featherine in the Third Domain, she claims that it is impossible for her to get lost in the Sea of Fragments, and therefore that should've been impossible, which implies as well being outside the sea of fragments and the depths.
Or let's also not forget how Featherine claims that in the world of the gods they can revive whenever they want, what exactly is implied when she becomes a Creator and was cursed with the deadly illness, the same illness which is just a slumber that she wakes up whenever she wants.
 

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besides of course the fact that Great Witches from planes that see the city of books like a hazy foggy are no different than Creators.
These witches aren't Creators tho, so they can't not be on the ladder, especially with the term "Top Layer(s) witches" being thrown by Ryushiki07 in the same book with the interview we both use, basically giving out their position on said ladder.

(Unless you interpret that name as referring to Creators, but Ryushiki07 constantly call them "writers" in that book making it unlikely).
 
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These witches aren't Creators tho, so they can't not be on the ladder, especially with the term "Top Layer(s) witches" being thrown by Ryushiki07 in the same book with the interview we both use, basically giving out their position on said ladder.

(Unless you interpret that name as referring to Creators, but Ryushiki07 constantly call them "writers" in that book making it unlikely).
That's saying that these witches even exist, not that that was a metaphorical quote to say more than once that Featherine is a creator. Nonetheless, Featherine is one of "those" Great Witches in Erika's claim, and still, she is said to be a Creator in the actual accurate translation, and ofc in the booklet as well. Also, I don't recall this claim of "Top Layer(s) witches" regarding Great Witches on the same quote that Erika referenced, can you show it?
 

QuasiYuri

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That's saying that these witches even exist, not that that was a metaphorical quote to say more than once that Featherine is a creator. Nonetheless, Featherine is one of "those" Great Witches in Erika's claim, and still, she is said to be a Creator in the actual accurate translation, and ofc in the booklet as well. Also, I don't recall this claim of "Top Layer(s) witches" regarding Great Witches on the same quote that Erika referenced, can you show it?
Nah, Feath is mentionned as a different thing since he's talking about the fact that he has the relationship between Feath, Lambda, Bern and "Top Layer(s) Witches" in mind.

It's on the Bernkastel page of the Shinsou Kaimei Dokuhon which has the interview in the OP.
 
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Nah, Feath is mentionned as a different thing since he's talking about the fact that he has the relationship between Feath, Lambda, Bern and "Top Layer(s) Witches" in mind.

It's on the Bernkastel page of the Shinsou Kaimei Dokuhon which has the interview in the OP.
Couldn't find this "Top Layer(s) Witches" on Bern's page, there are actually things supporting even more what I've said. Foremost, it said that Bernkastel is a piece with immense power due to being protected by Featherine, which is referenced as the Mighty Lord--with the sense of that of a Creator. Also, I saw the other page with her, but Ryukishi only talks about the evolution of facial expressions that the character has until the end of the work.

強大な主の後ろ盾により、元老院において絶大な力を持っと噂される。
  • It is rummored that she possess an immense authority in the Senate due to the support of the Mighty Lord.

EUhK4Xb.jpg

Secondly, the other he is literally saying that she is the creator/author (writer) of that world (the world of witches) because she is a manifestation of him, so it is no different, it is literally being said she is a creator. Besides the fact that you also ignored that this is not even the only quote, as I showed previously. Witches that exists FAR HIGHER planes from the City of Books, the dwelling tale of Bernkastel and Erika during the Episode 8, are no different from Creators or Gods, and this claim is in the context of Featherine, is literally said that she exists outside this ladder because looks at the world of witches as pieces overlaid in her chessboard. That still debunks your points since your whole reasoning is that the City of Books is the top of the Ladder. And even in mine where the Senate is the highest one, since Erika's claim is about Far Higher, not the "next higher plane". So yeah, pretty much those great witches are beyond the so-called top of the ladder.

Also, everyone still needs the quote, can you show it? Also, still this "top(s) layer" needs to be in the context of Erika's claim, which isn't since Featherine is one of them in the quote due the to context of that narrative.
 

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Couldn't find this "Top Layer(s) Witches" on Bern's page, there are actually things supporting even more what I've said. Foremost, it said that Bernkastel is a piece with immense power due to being protected by Featherine, which is referenced as the Mighty Lord--with the sense of that of a Creator. Also, I saw the other page with her, but Ryukishi only talks about the evolution of facial expressions that the character has until the end of the work.
I'm talking about this sentence, at the end of the bottom right section.

彼女とラムダとフェザリーヌ辺り の、最上層の魔女たちの関係は、結構細かく脳内 設定があったりします。

And more precisely about 最上層の魔女たち that term of "Top Layer(s) Witches", which is different from Featherine juste like how Lambdadelta and Bern are different in that sentence.

Secondly, the other he is literally saying that she is the creator/author (writer) of that world (the world of witches) because she is a manifestation of him, so it is no different, it is literally being said she is a creator. Besides the fact that you also ignored that this is not even the only quote, as I showed previously. Witches that exists FAR HIGHER planes from the City of Books, the dwelling tale of Bernkastel and Erika during the Episode 8, are no different from Creators or Gods, and this claim is in the context of Featherine, is literally said that she exists outside this ladder because looks at the world of witches as pieces overlaid in her chessboard. That still debunks your points since your whole reasoning is that the City of Books is the top of the Ladder. And even in mine where the Senate is the highest one, since Erika's claim is about Far Higher, not the "next higher plane". So yeah, pretty much those great witches are beyond the so-called top of the ladder.
I never claimed that the City of Book is the top of the Ladder tho..? My point is that the ladder doesn't stop in the witch domain and continue beyond the City of Book as long as there's limitations.

Also why would Erika even talk about Featherine to begin with? Featherine is a Creator sure, but as shown with the quote prior, the Great Witches/"Top Layer(s) Witches" aren't the same thing as Featherine, otherwise Ryushiki07 wouldn't have mentionned them in a thing about the relationship between all these witches.

And Erika doesn't say "these witches are creators", but that they are "hardly different" from them, aka there's a difference. Featherine being a Creator and not just "hardly different", her sentence referring to her obviously doesn't work.
Also saying they are beyond the top of the ladder is essentially saying that they are Creators since we know for fact that they are the only thing above it, which would make absolutely no sense with Erika's sentence for obvious reasons.
 
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Creator level aren't on a layer since layer=limitation, and since witches can reach up to Creators, they can reach what's below as well.
I mean, I think that would warrant Low 1A, but if 1B characters can reach that position, it’s probably not 1A. I think Low
1A should work for the creator, but that could be for another crt
 
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I'm talking about this sentence, at the end of the bottom right section.

彼女とラムダとフェザリーヌ辺り の、最上層の魔女たちの関係は、結構細かく脳内 設定があったりします。

And more precisely about 最上層の魔女たち that term of "Top Layer(s) Witches", which is different from Featherine juste like how Lambdadelta and Bern are different in that sentence.
Can you link the page?
I never claimed that the City of Book is the top of the Ladder tho..? My point is that the ladder doesn't stop in the witch domain and continue beyond the City of Book as long as there's limitations.
You didn't? Then mb, I thought I've read this in the OP. Also for the following, the ladder stops at the edge of the witch domain, Lambdadelta herself and Bernkastel go anywhere they want through the ladder, and she even talks about how Beatrice was able to go through all the ladder faster than her, that needed to go through with 1000 years and precautions in each step. Also, we literally don't have any proof that the Ladder stretches beyond the Witch Domain, and as I said, it doesn't stop at the City of Book, it stops at the Senate, that is the highest-level of witches in existence, there are no more endeavors above that, therefore the Ladder ends there.
Also why would Erika even talk about Featherine to begin with? Featherine is a Creator sure, but as shown with the quote prior, the Great Witches/"Top Layer(s) Witches" aren't the same thing as Featherine, otherwise Ryushiki07 wouldn't have mentionned them in a thing about the relationship between all these witches.
Erika talks about Featherine because she is the Great Witch in the context of those claims. Also, there isn't even any relation with "Great Witches/Top Layer(s Witches)" which are two quotes that don't even connect, because Erika's quote is literally about something that is far beyond the reach of the City of Book and the Senate. The only thing that is so Far Above in that context is Featherine seeing the entire Witch Domain as a chessboard. Ryukishi didn't mention Erika's context in that line, he just says "Higher layer(s) witches" not "Top", and even so, isn't even related, anyone who has read the novels knows that Erika context is pretty much it is very relative to the preparation of the ground to undertake the show that is Featherine.

And Erika doesn't say "these witches are creators", but that they are "hardly different" from them, aka there's a difference. Featherine being a Creator and not just "hardly different", her sentence referring to her obviously doesn't work.
So we will place Witches like Bernkastel and Lambda hardly different than Featherine in level?
Also saying they are beyond the top of the ladder is essentially saying that they are Creators since we know for fact that they are the only thing above it, which would make absolutely no sense with Erika's sentence for obvious reasons.
Not really, cuz beyond the ladder there are still the depths, and for one to attain Creatorhood they need to cross over and cease to be. The ladder itself has the endpoint as the depths, and still, there is no proof that the same depths exists in the realm where Featherine's chessboard is, I mean, her board is inaccessible for witches as a whole, and even witches that have access to the depths didn't even know her realm when she summoned them there.
 
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The depths are the same hierarchy as the ladder. Lambda literally talks about how she is taking steps on the ladder and wants Beatrice to reach to her own depths and maybe even beyond her. Said ladder being the one including the removal of restrictions in the same context, restrictions leading to the creator himself.

Maybe we should focus more on what the verse directly tells us instead of vague guesswork. I swear visual novel indexing is just glorified fantheories.
 

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Can you link the page?
You litteraly linked it yourself one comment ago.
You didn't? Then mb, I thought I've read this in the OP. Also for the following, the ladder stops at the edge of the witch domain, Lambdadelta herself and Bernkastel go anywhere they want through the ladder, and she even talks about how Beatrice was able to go through all the ladder faster than her, that needed to go through with 1000 years and precautions in each step. Also, we literally don't have any proof that the Ladder stretches beyond the Witch Domain, and as I said, it doesn't stop at the City of Book, it stops at the Senate, that is the highest-level of witches in existence, there are no more endeavors above that, therefore the Ladder ends there.
Are you sure you really understood what Lambda said? She litteraly lament the fact that she is a coward and still has a long way to go in the ladder

Lambda flat out tells out the ladder only stops with Creatorhood. Anything stopping at witch domain is only part of the headcanon territory.
Erika talks about Featherine because she is the Great Witch in the context of those claims. Also, there isn't even any relation with "Great Witches/Top Layer(s Witches)" which are two quotes that don't even connect, because Erika's quote is literally about something that is far beyond the reach of the City of Book and the Senate. The only thing that is so Far Above in that context is Featherine seeing the entire Witch Domain as a chessboard. Ryukishi didn't mention Erika's context in that line, he just says "Higher layer(s) witches" not "Top", and even so, isn't even related, anyone who has read the novels knows that Erika context is pretty much it is very relative to the preparation of the ground to undertake the show that is Featherine.

So Erika think that "Creators are hardly different from Creators"? Yeah still makes no sense. You can't just use a personnal interpretation and put it as fact over the novel.

[So we will place Witches like Bernkastel and Lambda hardly different than Featherine in level?

The quote isn't about them, so that's irrelevant.

Not really, cuz beyond the ladder there are still the depths, and for one to attain Creatorhood they need to cross over and cease to be. The ladder itself has the endpoint as the depths, and still, there is no proof that the same depths exists in the realm where Featherine's chessboard is, I mean, her board is inaccessible for witches as a whole, and even witches that have access to the depths didn't even know her realm when she summoned them there.
Not what was said in the work.

Nowhere were the depths treated as a somehow hidden part of the Creatorhood process.

The only canon explanation is that end of the ladder = no restrictions = Creator.

I don't see why we would put fan theories over canon for indexing purposes.
 
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Reactive Evolution can work from maybe teir 3 downwards. I don't remember it working on teirs like teir 2 e.g from 2-C to 2-B though this is derailing.
 
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Reactive Evolution can work from maybe teir 3 downwards. I don't remember it working on teirs like teir 2 e.g from 2-C to 2-B though this is derailing.
Agreed that it's derailing, but to respond to your comment, Reinhard is a 1B character and he does have reactive evolution or he should, at least.
 
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Bro, this isn't a shinza thread especially I don't know Japanese or anything about the character. Plus him being 1-B has nothing to do with RE.
 
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Bro, this isn't a shinza thread especially I don't know Japanese or anything about the character. Plus him being 1-B has nothing to do with RE.
I thought you said that reactive evolution doesn't work the same in tier 1, so I was just saying that a tier 1 character can still have reactive evolution, unless I somehow misinterpreted what you were saying.
 
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it does, but the way that Umineko does it isn't reactive evolution. They're just rising up the ladder, there isn't much to react to unless I'm missing something
Well it would probably be just reactive evolution since accending fast is dangerous and would kill witches so they have to adapt to higher infinites iirc
 
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Well it would probably be just reactive evolution since accending fast is dangerous and would kill witches so they have to adapt to higher infinites iirc
Wouldn't that just be reactive power level, tho? Not sure if it really qualifies for reactive evolution.
 
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