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When Creators Cry: Answer Arcs (Yes, it's a downgrade)
- Thread starter QuasiYuri
- Start date
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Actually Ultima and Ovy already gave good counters.
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- Thread starter
- #123
Darkmash already gave most of what I would have said (although I'll still answer Ultima comment), but I just wanna say that it's better if the thread is cool and yknow, not a hellhole.
No need to bump 908098 times or anything. I'm pretty sure most of us prefer to do whatever they do in their day and just discuss this for a moment, instead of going full day into debatting about stronk waifus.
No need to bump 908098 times or anything. I'm pretty sure most of us prefer to do whatever they do in their day and just discuss this for a moment, instead of going full day into debatting about stronk waifus.
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- Thread starter
- #124
Anything above the middle is the Creator realm, per Lambda's explanation. Her self-insert (or true self, for Ovy7) isn't in said realm.
Sure Feath's super strong for a witch, but she is still one. Lambda knows about Featherine and didn't made any differences.
Eeeh, I misremembered Last Note on this one. My bad.
It really doesn't have to be. Umineko's really isn't that fond of Third Person Objective POV (for obvious reason) and you can portray characters thoughts without having them talking to themselves.
Besides, unless the two scenes contradicts themselves (which they don't, narration even emphasis the fact that Lambda knows all that stuff which is why she's stressed, can't choose to win nor lose, knows about Featherine's weakness and even the past incident with it) there's no reason to reject additional infos from two perfectly equal canons.
So Lambdadelta perfectly knows all the stuff about Featherine so far.
Just explained above how it didn't contradict there, and that saying Lambda doesn't know that just makes no sense in both VN and manga.
Besides it is pretty much trying to make one medium take precedence over the other, which we aren't doing since we mix manga and VN all the time.
Which doesn't apply new hierarchies or anything, just that they are much higher.
I consider that there's only one infinite ladder; not two infinite ladders that scale to each others and are the only reason for anything beyond 1-A.
How it changes stuff is pretty obvious.
It is "end point" (終点) as in destination/last stop yeah. It's how you usually talk about the terminus of a travel in a vehicle.
That's also the japanese name of SSB's Final Destination, which is a useless fact that I had to write somewhere.
Well, in a way it would be the same result as what's being argued, since the two combined would just be one infinite ladder.
Although my stance is more than while there's an infinite ladder for sure, it only stops at Creator realm, per Lambda's world
and even if we ignored that added a second hierarchy it wouldn't be an infinite one and would result in a single infinite ladder, hence would come back to the same thing.
(If I only wanted to get the tiering right, any of the 3 options would work. But I still prefer what's most accurate).
Then it would have nothing to do on any Voyagers page, and just be them being able to draw from it.
Which actually makes more sense given how both Battler and Bernkastel are Sorcerer of Miracles and are fundamentally different.
Voyagers being a secondary existence and all isn't what's currently on the profiles, which consider the concept as their true self, which is what I was arguing about.
However, if we just consider it as "flowery" talk (not every case of "embobidment" have to be litteral, after all) to say that they hold control over this kind of concept, then I'm fine with it.
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- Thread starter
- #126
You don't have to comment more than one time if you aren't making any relevant argument yknow.
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because?
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I'm just expressing my opinion, in my opinon the argument from both seem to be better elaborated than the counterpart that's all. And some people where FRAing more than one time too. I only FRAed one time.
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- #129
I just noticed you FRAing again and just telling to others "their argument are good because they are" when it is up to them to see if the arguments given were good enough or not; making both needless. If you want to developp on your stance, just explain how your side is better.
Your vote isn't like, gonna be a better vote because you repeated it.
(Ofc others FRAing too isn't good either, just happened that you were the one who did it in this short time. Would apply to anyone else doing the same).
Hasty12345
Username Only- 4,204
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disagree FRA
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- Thread starter
- #132
I don't think it is truly needed (unless the other side think it is, in which case I don't mind). Stuff is better in staff thread when there's a risk of huge derailling (and members just don't really care about stuff being staff only anyway).
However I would like if people could try to not just say "agree/disagree FRA" and also comment if they have a good understanding of both tiering and at least some knowledge of Umineko. This kind of thread needs discussion, not big numbers.
Also the post is litteraly divided in several, unrelated parts, meaning agree/disagree FRA doesn't even explain what they agree/disagree with.
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Just to adress this, but Creators are indeed Witches, just of higher rank. This is repeated multiple times:
"One day you might even be a witch so great that even I cannot compare. Perhaps as you say you might even rise to the lofty height of a Creator."
"The Great Witches on a plane far above us are no different than Gods" (Note that Voyagers refer the Creators as Gods)
"Witches of a Higher-Order than Voyagers are called Creators"
Not countering anything really, but Creators are Witches, so them being referred as such at times isn't unnatural.
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Which were later addressed by Yuri.
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Bump
Lormac_CC
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This supports Quasi claim on the Creators, so I am in full agreement with his claim on the Creators stuff
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I strongly agree with the Creators issue, even more so because I was the one who helped with the translations and providing some of the content. The translations that put the Creators as a singular entity or that take is just heavy MTL usage. And this subject is extremely important because the current justification of the profiles is that witches become one with the creator, not that witches can become a creator. This is quite wrong because it is a misinterpretation of the concept of boredom of the Creators with the addition of MTL. I wanted to make it clear that there was no retcon, regardless of this: "The highest-ranking witch, who sent Piece, she was the closest to a Creator"
I obtained the Symphony of Catbox and Dreams a few weeks ago, and the context that "creator" is a title still stands, only the lack of context is being used to say it's a retcon here. Therefore, there is no retcon, since "航海者より高位の魔女は、造物主と呼ばれる." is still around.
Now using another fact from the novel to counter this, which has been stated in this thread before, is that Ikuko who is also Featherine is Ryukishi's self-insert because Featherine is nothing more than just a manifestation of herself in a meta-narrative of her writing the tales that encompass the Witch Domain, being the author of the world, and this already gets into another point that was established, which is the fact that in episode 6 it was established that her study is outside the world of witches. Regardless of this not being stated in with every word in the manga like in the novel, because it is not extremely necessary, we have in episode 8 the entire meta-world side of the story being just a script in her study, which includes Human Domain and Witch Domain.
Thus I agree 100% with Creators. Anything else is just headcanon and forced MTL.
I obtained the Symphony of Catbox and Dreams a few weeks ago, and the context that "creator" is a title still stands, only the lack of context is being used to say it's a retcon here. Therefore, there is no retcon, since "航海者より高位の魔女は、造物主と呼ばれる." is still around.
Now using another fact from the novel to counter this, which has been stated in this thread before, is that Ikuko who is also Featherine is Ryukishi's self-insert because Featherine is nothing more than just a manifestation of herself in a meta-narrative of her writing the tales that encompass the Witch Domain, being the author of the world, and this already gets into another point that was established, which is the fact that in episode 6 it was established that her study is outside the world of witches. Regardless of this not being stated in with every word in the manga like in the novel, because it is not extremely necessary, we have in episode 8 the entire meta-world side of the story being just a script in her study, which includes Human Domain and Witch Domain.
Thus I agree 100% with Creators. Anything else is just headcanon and forced MTL.
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The witches becoming a creator themselves or becoming one is literally pointless, the domain of the creator existing above the witches domain (which is proved by the fact featherine is not a creator even though she exists above the domain of witches)still stands and in that way the cosmology still stands for the qualifications of boundless, furthermore I don’t get why the misconception of Featherine being a creator still exists when it was out right stated for that to not be the case in the Last Note back in 2019I strongly agree with the Creators issue, even more so because I was the one who helped with the translations and providing some of the content. The translations that put the Creators as a singular entity or that take is just heavy MTL usage. And this subject is extremely important because the current justification of the profiles is that witches become one with the creator, not that witches can become a creator. This is quite wrong because it is a misinterpretation of the concept of boredom of the Creators with the addition of MTL. I wanted to make it clear that there was no retcon, regardless of this: "The highest-ranking witch, who sent Piece, she was the closest to a Creator"
I obtained the Symphony of Catbox and Dreams a few weeks ago, and the context that "creator" is a title still stands, only the lack of context is being used to say it's a retcon here. Therefore, there is no retcon, since "航海者より高位の魔女は、造物主と呼ばれる." is still around.
Now using another fact from the novel to counter this, which has been stated in this thread before, is that Ikuko who is also Featherine is Ryukishi's self-insert because Featherine is nothing more than just a manifestation of herself in a meta-narrative of her writing the tales that encompass the Witch Domain, being the author of the world, and this already gets into another point that was established, which is the fact that in episode 6 it was established that her study is outside the world of witches. Regardless of this not being stated in with every word in the manga like in the novel, because it is not extremely necessary, we have in episode 8 the entire meta-world side of the story being just a script in her study, which includes Human Domain and Witch Domain.
Thus I agree 100% with Creators. Anything else is just headcanon and forced MTL.
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We literally have a word of god of it being within an official media of the work itself. If your interpretation goes against Ryukishi's WoG it means it's just headcanon.
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For her City of Books manifestation, yes. Whereas there are consistent statements about Featherine being a Creator, literally in the OP.
Hasty12345
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Death of the author exists for a reason, Toriyama can't just come out and say Goku can't blow up a planet and we take the WoG as fact....
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- #143
Death of the author isn't overulling the highest authority with your favorite headcanon tho.
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- #144
The Creators part Alonik mentionned isn't related to the tier downgrade, so you're out of tracks there.
Creator Domain is obviously above everything else in the verse.
This "everything else" is however High 1-B/Low 1-A at best, meaning they only qualify for 1-A.
Hasty12345
Username Only- 4,204
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never said it was, but the author can't just make shit up either... Outside of the text, he's not the highest authority and he can't contradict his own work.
PrinceofPein
Username Only- 8,889
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- #147
He's just confirming what's already in the VN while giving additional info to things he left in the dark.
We definitely use WoG on this wiki, and the only thing done is confirming what was already left obvious in the work itself, as shown in the OP.
Since Last Note's so-called "retcon" has been explained and contradicted already, there's no reason to dismiss Ryushiki07 as someone who doesn't know what he's writing about.
Hasty12345
Username Only- 4,204
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No, I'm one of those guys who thinks the author can't say whatever he/she wants about their franchise and their statements be taken as fact when/if it contradicts the actual work...
When its convenient sure.
Unless his statements do contradict his work. Whether they do or don't idrc.
PrinceofPein
Username Only- 8,889
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When it does not contradict the actual work or as a supporting evidence or explanation for something in the actual work
Hasty12345
Username Only- 4,204
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Yeah man, but if you look at the original text I was responding to, the person holds the author as an authority that succeeds all interpretation, which isn't inherently the case due to death of the author where WoG is concerned.
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I just held the point here because there is absolutely nothing that contradicts what he said. The only thing would be the retcon, which I have already shown that even in the new official version of the game everything stays the same, and is only interpretive for Featherine's manifestation of that analogy.
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Except if i interpret it in a weird way, doesn't this text tell by Ultima would still lead to same level of downgrade than what proposed in the OP?
As the three would still make just one infinite ladder.
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- Thread starter
- #153
Yup, I explained how it would end up being the same in my answer to that part.
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Hasty12345
Username Only- 4,204
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I'm personally indifferent to the specific point here, if it's decided the WoG is valid then I'm in no way against it's use. I guess I just took your wording in the one post to "hyper-literal".
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It honestly doesn’t
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What tier Bern gonna get?
Megaraptor149
He/Him- 1,950
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1-B i thought
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Bern would be downgraded to 1-B....Tenma Yato AP level currently is 1-B too.......my last Bern vs Yato match was created less than 2 years ago....and today they would be in same level again....
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