• This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.

    For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here.
  • We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.

    Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.

    Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page.
  • Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.

What is the Archetype in The Mythos ?

Where did that design even come from by the way? I can't recall a single canon instance he's described like that.
 
You know that's actually something I can't answer, not a single Outer God in HP Lovecraft's CM (aside from Yog Sothoth if you count bubbles as a design) hasn't had their true form described which makes sense going by the archetypes. I guess they considered Nyarlathotep to look like a worm based off how he acts in canon and all the thousands of hideous forms the dude has
 
Shub-Niggurath gets described I think. Other than her and Yog-Sothoth, the only thing we know about the others is that Azathoth has a mouth with teeth.

Nyarlathotep's only forms described by Lovecraft (not sure about the other Circle writers) are the Black Pharaoh and the Black Man.
 
Eh I'm sure it comes from some EU Cthulhu Mythos writer that I don't know about, but it'd be a lot more tame compared to the other things to come out of the EU
 
Nah.

I mean more like, Azzy is the big transcendant all encompassing guy but don't bother anyone.

While Azzy rules others because he's implied to be a destructive idiot tyran.

God is above the King, but the King is the ruler on Earth.
No not really. Azzy and Yog as Derp stated have been shown to be extremely important, and seem to be more of a Monad type figure.

"Idiot Tyrant". Idiot in this context does not refer to what this line seems to be implying. Idiot also means private or solitary, which fits Azathoth's case alot more considering their place in the mythos.

Applying terms like "Idiot Tyrant" or simply "ruler" i'd say doesn't work, considering Azathoth is meant to be this sort of primordial chaos, not some acting king or ruler. The use of the word ruler or king in the mythos is more so metaphorical as the nature is a lot more abstract than merely that.

Yog-Sothoth is stated to be everywhere, and the all-in-one, encompassing all things. Whereas Azathoth is the "Nuclear Chaos" the Nucleus, or center of Infinity. This is very similar to how certain systems or religions treat Monad type figures. You have an infinite all encompassing concept, but you also have the center of said concept and both are equally important. For example, the Non-Dualistic approach of Brahman and Atman. Brahman is the All-in-One, the true universe that is incomprehensible and the primordial force of origin. Atman is the individual higher-self present in all living things, and all Atman is Brahman, making them one in the same, thus equal. Brahman is the everything within the god, Atman is the god within the everything. It's the Macrocosm and the Microcosm, infinitesimally large and infinitesimally small. The kicker is the fact they both are manifestations of the very same thing, the same energy, thus they are one and equal to one another.
 
Last edited:
Problem is that while all of this is cool, it is interpretation. We don't rate characters based on what they could represent but on feats.

And as far as feats go, Azzy is a powerful god but never was treated as anywhere comparable to Yog, while omniscient Randolph who previously encountered Azzy still piut Yog above everything in TTGOTSK.

Also it's not rare for a character to be supposed to be the absolute guy only to be revealed that there's a dude dwarfing him considerably.

We're clearly treating CM way too differently from others verses, even those who tend to have the same kind of symbolism.
 
I think Aogirikira was talking about their OG selves, correct I am wrong. Because they should exist as a single entity in the Supreme Archetype from what I have gathered
Unless I really misinterpreted what everyone else is saying
 
Problem is that while all of this is cool, it is interpretation. We don't rate characters based on what they could represent but on feats.

And as far as feats go, Azzy is a powerful god but never was treated as anywhere comparable to Yog, while omniscient Randolph who previously encountered Azzy still piut Yog above everything in TTGOTSK.

Also it's not rare for a character to be supposed to be the absolute guy only to be revealed that there's a dude dwarfing him considerably.

We're clearly treating CM way too differently from others verses, even those who tend to have the same kind of symbolism.
Literally nothing in the CM is feats.
 
And as far as feats go, Azzy is a powerful god but never was treated as anywhere comparable to Yog, while omniscient Randolph who previously encountered Azzy still put Yog above everything in TTGOTSK.

He never encounters Azathoth, ever. He has some passing knowledge from the Necronomicon how he's the lord of all existence and such but he never gets up close and personal in the same way as with Yog-Sothoth.

Also it's not rare for a character to be supposed to be the absolute guy only to be revealed that there's a dude dwarfing him considerably.

Not really what happens. We get a lot of information about Yog-Sothoth's status but nothing about how he's compared to Azathoth. Him being the lord of the existence embodied and manifested as Yog-Sothoth and possibly the progenitor of the Outer Gods in their fractional forms already puts him a special place in the setting.
 
It's also important to note that humans don't even fully comprehend the Ancient Ones, who are far lesser in scale than the Outer Gods. For example, Randolph Carter notes that the idea that the Ancient Ones would be malicious towards humanity is very wrong:

"The Guide knew, as he knew all things, of Carter’s quest and coming, and that this seeker of dreams and secrets stood before him unafraid. There was no horror or malignity in what he radiated, and Carter wondered for a moment whether the mad Arab’s terrific blasphemous hints, and extracts from the Book of Thoth, might not have come from envy and a baffled wish to do what was now about to be done. Or perhaps the Guide reserved his horror and malignity for those who feared." ~Through the Gates of the Silver Key

"Damnation, he reflected, is but a word bandied about by those whose blindness leads them to condemn all who can see, even with a single eye. He wondered at the vast conceit of those who had babbled of the malignant Ancient Ones, as if They could pause from their everlasting dreams to wreak a wrath upon mankind. As well, he thought, might a mammoth pause to visit frantic vengeance on an angleworm." ~Through the Gates of the Silver Key

While there are instances of the Necronomicon accurately describing the Outer Gods (Yog-Sothoth is correctly described as encompassing past, present, and future all at once), the point I'm trying to make is that any statements about the Other Gods made from a mortal's perspective should not necessarily be taken at face value- things like Azathoth being a ruler and sleeping at his throne while having dreams he doesn't understand are metaphorical illustrations and don't apply to him in a literal sense.
 
Agreed. The idea that a poem written in the perspective of a mortal is a literal description of Azathoth is laughable.
 
Honestly, I don't think I have much against the idea of Yog and Azzy being one in the Supreme Archetype.
 
I have another question for this Archetype stuff. Is the Archetype or anything similar ever mentioned within the canon of Mythos ?
 
Yes, the entire latter half of ''Through the Gates and Silver Key'' is about the Archetypes and Supreme Archetype.
 
Yes, the entire latter half of ''Through the Gates and Silver Key'' is about the Archetypes and Supreme Archetype.
Oh I see. So the Outers are something similar to avatars of their Archetypes and the Supreme Archetype (Azzy/Yog) is basically God.
 
Well, sorta. The consensus seems to be that when these entities view existence in terms of a fragmentary, change-involving perspective, they are known as the Outer Gods from the perspective of that fragmentary reality. Their true, eternal forms that are beyond existence's changeless whole are the Archetypes.
 
None that we know off but they definitely do. Most of them come from other universes than that of Earth's, including Cthulhu, Ghatanothoa and Tsathoggua.
 
Back
Top