What happens if an author knows how to power scale?

[MeOrU]

Yea question is the title. If a writer knows how to power scale does that mean power scaling the characters in that work of fiction becomes irrelevant if the author has already done it? Could the author potentially make every high level character in that work of fiction tier 0? Just some questions as someone thinking of writing fiction.

 

[Everything12]

There is an Author who created their own published work who used to visit Versus debating sites, his name is Suggs. His verse is probably the strongest in fiction with multiple Tier 0's, it also laughed and mocked in every single Versus debating site and is banned from any actual debate because of how much Versus debating nonsense its full of.

 

[Rikimarox2]

Pretty much what everything12 said, Suggsverse is the first that comes to mind.

Suggsverse is also a ******* sin against humanity.

 

[Antoniofer]

Not going to talk about tiering, but in theory that is already implicit within the work, our work is simply to writenit down here and "clear" up any possible inconsisteny.

 

[Thelastmlg]

While is true that most authors don't really care about the characters being universal and thus billions of times stronger than weaker ones (like goku and krillin), they still tend to b aware of gaps in power, at least the most basic part of it.

For example, they may not care about the actual number of gap, but still think "this guy did this feat, i guess he can one shot this other guy snd put him at the hospital" instea dof the victim being sub atomized.

So they already power scale, the levels vary we just grab the feats and try to apply the power scale and fill in the vagueness and inconsistencies.

 

[The_Narrator_of_Narrative]

Suggs is very strange when it comes to the power-scaling of his verse, like 2/3 of his verse is just he saying how strong his characters are, and I heard that the author is pretty arrogant about his verse being “the strongest in fiction” tho, anyways the Suggsverse characters beating each other is like: “I’m more Omnipotent than you” so it’s not really valid for our Tiering System.

 

[Ovrhide]

If you take the suugsverse at face value. With the current tiering system, it likely doesn’t reach 1-A.

you just have to get through the cringe writing to see. He uses words that describes infinite above Infinite, but I don’t think he has ever used the concept of inaccessible cardinals (an example being how a 1-A could get to High 1-A)
And his word of said character being stronger than some omnipotent from a different franchise holds no water, as he has no rights over said characters to determine their powers.

 

[The_Narrator_of_Narrative]

Exactly ^
By reading the description of the cosmology of his verse, you perceve that he just put layer over layer with some strange names like: Omegaverse, Exaverse, Zettaverse, Teraverse etc, but he doesn’t give an actual description of what that layer is, he just says that it’s infinitely infinite times above infinity so it’s a beyond infinity, but the real information that it’s actually valid for our Tiering System, like level of transcendence over space-time and dimensionality, he simply doesn’t give so it’s almost impossible to scale a verse like this.

 

[Thelastmlg]

I remember reading that some had infinite dimensions there, spatial and temporal and stuff like "seeing stuff like fiction"

 

[The_Narrator_of_Narrative]

We would need more information

 

[Thelastmlg]

I'm searching through it, it seems the 4th floor of Existence is the end of Number Concepts, Sequences, Sets, Cardinality, Levels, Infinity, Eternity, Possibility, Nothingness, and Totalities.

and tier 6 (the 4th floor) has people with "verseology manipulation" which is literally manipulating verses, yes actual verses like DCverse or marvel verse"



I'm not going to quote that wall of text.

But i think the 4th floor could achieve 1-A due to encompassing cardinality and being utterly transcended by everything else.

 

[The_Narrator_of_Narrative]

Manipulating other fictional verses is literally NLF, there's not "Multi-Fictional Interaction" Suggs simply doesn't have authority over other fictional franchises, and any other author not only Suggs would be being very arrogant by saying things like "This character that I created beats all of fiction" and "Omnipotence" is not even valid therm for a serious Vs Battle Community, so I really have difficulty to see the Suggsverse in our Tiering System.

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

Suggsverse can be disqualified due to being incoherent and based on meaningless terms. This is a quote from the cosmology:

THE ALL​

THE ALL is that of an Absolute Reality, and transcends names and terms and essence. It is unknowable as it is an all-encompassing force above all others. There can be Nothing existing outside of THE ALL; else, THE ALL would not be THE ALL. There is nothing else to define, confine, bound, limit or restrict THE ALL. It has always continuously existed, for there is nothing else to have ever created it... If it had ever 'not been,' even for a moment, it would not 'be' now. But THE ALL has sub-levels. There is All, then there is The All, and then you have THE ALL which encompasses the former two. THE ALL is the Grand Principle of Creation. THE ALL is a union between Nothing and All Possibility, the ultimate opposites, and the nature of that union is without beginning or end for these two opposites automatically and simultaneously create each other.
...
Outside of THE ALL exists Regions.

Regions​

There are Absolute Infinite amounts of THE ALL. Each ‘THE ALL’ is confined within outer-transfinite planes. Once entering into the Regions, the levels of trans-possibility and meta-actuality opens up the door to new truths.

---

There are authors who calc and research feats before putting them in to make sure they are consistent, but not many. Most authors with fiction involving a lot of combat should have a general power scaling/hierarchy in mind which gets stated/implied in the work, and such statements are considered evidence unless there are a bunch of inconsistencies.

 

[Bobsican]

Meanwhile there's Marvel and DC where they have explicitly stated that they really don't care about powerscaling and just do action/gags as they please.

 

[Daddybrawl]

Personally I feel like that’s a good philosophy, to care more about what you’re putting out than the strengths of your characters. Only thing is that it makes things really difficult for the debating community.

 

[Bobsican]

Only from a writing perspective, that is, which is the most inportant one for their purposes anyways.

Oh yeah, a recent incident has been with @The_real_cal_howard , who has written a plot to publish and all of that, but he still keeps avoiding haxy stuff to prevent the setting from being easily corrupted by power creep and so on.

 

[Imaginym]

Yeah. What makes for good powerscaling doesn't necessarily make for good storytelling & vice-versa.
Though, I do wonder about this "Characters can't be believed to have control over other properties".

In theory, it is possible for fiction to reference other fiction, so why should we deny that X from Fiction A can control content from Fiction B, even if X & Fiction A's author has no legal authority or creative relationship to Fiction B?

Similarly, what if a part of a fiction breaks the 4th Wall to assert that a part of that fiction created or controls Real Life, specifically & explicitly clarifying it means where the Real World human viewer is?
Even if we consider that an author speaking through proxy, it's presumably only true within the context of that fiction, I can guess at least.
But what are the full details on how we treat such scenarios, I wonder?

 

[The_Alxhemist]

As long as the Author doesn't pull the same thing Suggs did, giving them tiers would be easier

 

[Thelastmlg]

Yeah. What makes for good powerscaling doesn't necessarily make for good storytelling & vice-versa.
Though, I do wonder about this "Characters can't be believed to have control over other properties".

In theory, it is possible for fiction to reference other fiction, so why should we deny that X from Fiction A can control content from Fiction B, even if X & Fiction A's author has no legal authority or creative relationship to Fiction B?

Similarly, what if a part of a fiction breaks the 4th Wall to assert that a part of that fiction created or controls Real Life, specifically & explicitly clarifying it means where the Real World human viewer is?
Even if we consider that an author speaking through proxy, it's presumably only true within the context of that fiction, I can guess at least.
But what are the full details on how we treat such scenarios, I wonder?

Because references don't mean knowing everything in the verse and stuff, which verseology implies.

 

[Imaginym]

Because references don't mean knowing everything in the verse and stuff, which verseology implies.

I apologize, but I'm not sure I entirely understand the logic. Not that I'm much in disagreement with it. Just confused.

 

[Flashlight237]

Being real, I think it can be agreed on that manga writers know how powerscaling works, Akira Toriyama for instance.

Also note that in Dragon Ball Z, power levels were used as numerical powerscaling until at least the battle against Frieza threw that logic out the window.

 

[Thelastmlg]

I apologize, but I'm not sure I entirely understand the logic. Not that I'm much in disagreement with it. Just confused.

I mean that if the author references a verse and stuff by breaking the fourth wall, it shouldn't be evidence of being able to manipulate the whole verse, since there is lots of concepts there that may not even be known by the author.

Like, verseology means he could control say, homestuck at it's entirety, but what proof does we have that he knows about how it works if even the fandom itself tends to forget or not know?

Him saying "i can control DC" and then not knowning final crisis or anything means we have no idea how much they control and atuff

 

[Imaginym]

Fair. Although, what if they haven't demonstrated incorrect understanding of the 'verse?
Without proof that it is so, why assume their understanding of the thing the character is asserted to control, is flawed?
Character from X Verse: "I control Y verse."
Viewer: "He can't do what he says he can because we should first assume his knowledge of how to do that is flawed."
I mean, I suppose it is reasonable that an author could have inaccurate knowledge about something that's not one of their works.
Also, I brought up the matter of breaking the 4th wall because if a fictional character asserts they created the real world, why assume they mean OUR real world otherwise, as opposed to what is considered the "real world" for that setting?

 

[Anaconda999]

What if someone knows about this tiering system, and wants to use it to make a good verse. I'm asking because that someone is me.

 

[Daddybrawl]

...then don’t abuse it. I wouldn’t use this tiering system as a basis for a verse, as the system’s built for the opposite- it’s not here to inspire Power Levels, it’s here to calculate them from preexisting feats. It would certainly help if an author were to, say, use a popular Tiering system to help better portray the power level of the series they‘re trying to achieve, as it would make calculations and justifications easier, but that’s really the only way this Tiering system can assist with a verse imo

 

[MeOrU]

Blue mark comic fandom if you want to see examples

 

[Bobsican]

What if someone knows about this tiering system, and wants to use it to make a good verse. I'm asking because that someone is me.

I'm an step ahead

His name is Iosadoi, watch out for a game which I'll hopefully announce in some way in the future.

 

[Ican'tthinkof1goodname]

How strong is losadoi?

 

[Daddybrawl]

Clearly 11-C, he’s been announced as a Fictional Character on a Digital Platform for a Digital (and Fictional) Game.

 

[Bobsican]

How strong is losadoi?

Still in alpha, for now it seems he'll start in tier 9 but with many sorts of "basic" conceptual and law hax on an smurf level to block a good chunk of the top tiers on each tier on this site, with an extra "reactive power level" that allows him to put up a fight even with higher-d stuff.

 

[Ican'tthinkof1goodname]

I'm even 4 steps ahead of Bob as since 2014 I have been planning on making a video game and am going to put on consoles and computers. I might make it a Trilogy with the third game having time travel.

 

[Bobsican]

Wow. I hope it goes well.

 

[Flashlight237]

In any case, Darkstalkers is another decent example of a verse that knows how to powerscale from what I can tell.

 

[EliminatorVenom]

Thelastmlg describes it well. Most authors have a certain sense of scale in their works, it is kind of needed, they just do not go to the absolutes or don't care. And most good authors have a quite good, clearly defined hierarchy even - Tolkien comes to mind, but again, it is far from a rule or necessity for being a good author. In fact, most fictional authors, even the really good ones, don't give a lick to scaling beyond the most basic stuff.

In fact, from my experience reading things, most authors that give too much importance to power and scaling tend to make worse fiction. Again, not saying that it is a rule, but I don't remember a single author that made a fictional universe with extremely consistent and ready powerscaling be good or make an interesting tale. The best ones just focus on the dynamics of getting more powerful, but others... Well, they do not end up being much better than Suggs, Imma say that.