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Wario "tanks" the destruction of the universe... but not really

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Eficiente

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Cal clearly didn't read the whole thread, fully replying to the incomplete things he said would do the job he's expected to do by making him a summary.
And btw, I got permission from Cal to post this. So you can try and delete this again if you want, though I wouldn't advice it.
That comment sincerely expresses a bad state of mind.

Why quote something unrelated and reply sarcastically? That's not constructively replying to something you disagree with, just being mean and aiming to ridicule, as it's added in the middle of what you quoted and what you replied something that's not even in this thread. That editting recipe would do well in some youtube video hilariously making fun of a character or plot, not a place where one debates.

Those pics from discord and talking about how things were conceived beforehand exposes what exactly? They're all free to believe some stats to be wrong, and to talk and organize things up with others, which is even good as it polishes arguments. There is no "Bullshit" in first going over some things at a time like this Wario feats, if anything doing so is better for everyone than throwing in all would-be changes at once, like we allowed the Mario upgrade to be. Believing that this is being done now that some user is gone is wrong for many reasons, it's drama for no reason, and it's on you to believe that BS and claim it for everyone to hear when as far as we know things would have gone the same with that user still in. "You aren't being honest" is delirious, given that you're the one using dishonest tactics while AKM sama did nothing wrong. The comment got deleted probably because all that pointless drama, false accusations and nonsense shouldn't be here, in this thread for this wiki. The "We see what you're doing" sounds to me like people jumping in a train with similar standards, so I advise them to be better.

The second pic from discord doesn't show something that's been claimed here, nor the context of why it itself was being claimed there, which I can already tell is "way too many AoE fallacies are used". Of that thing AKM sama didn't even claim to agree on you took pics of things from 3 pages to go over why that former thing is wrong, that is literally insane. The straw man fallacy doesn't just come by mistake, it kinda could be that you were aiming to ridicule and strongly disagree with what you could. Cal should be talked to for agreeing on that comment being here.

Everyone who agreed with that should rethink things out without ill passions clouding them, and not just "to get Mario & co. accurate stats". I'm dead serious.
 
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Seol404

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Seol, I've seen plenty of your comments on Mario and NONE of them look like they're trying to make the site more accurate at all and it seems like a massive vendetta against the series. And you've done this same thing with series like Earthbound. This is nothing new.

Also come on now. "You guys are just wanking hurr durr", I mean there's 1-A arguments for Mario and literally no one here argues those. But you know, gotta stop the wank.
You've decided I have a vendetta against a series I've been playing since I was a child because I don't agree it's universal lmao. If you wanna debate me hit me up on Discord and we can.
 
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I’m sorry but this is being blown vastly out of proportion, there is no conspiracy to downplay Mario by absurd degrees. Those staff members simply convened in private to discuss the feats. It’s no different from Verse supporters creating Discord servers to organize future upgrades, something that exists for even Mario supporters.

It’s time to conclude this thread, nothing productive can come from this fire.
 
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I’m sorry but this is being blown vastly out of proportion, there is no conspiracy to downplay Mario by absurd degrees. Those staff members simply convened in private to discuss the feats. It’s no different from Verse supporters creating Discord servers to organize future upgrades, something that exists for even Mario supporters.

It’s time to conclude this thread, nothing productive can come from this fire.
Fully agreed. Warhammer Fantasy has a server even
 

DarkDragonMedeus

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First of all, I honestly do agree with Cal about the thread being closed prematurely, but would highly appreciate it if both sides calmed down. I'm glad Maverick for example has been one of the few people who has been trying to be fair to both sides. But anyway, the European Website is still a Nintendo published article on a website that is still up to date. And while I do agree that using Discord servers to upgrade or downgrade verses isn't particularly the best approach, it is by no means ban worthy or demotion worthy tactics. But please stop publicly copy/pasting the screenshots from Discord without consent, as that's kind of hurting both sides tbh.

However, I still think it would have been better to wait GyroNuts or Dino to respond for why it isn't. We honestly have no real consistent standards for secondary canon sources as of late it appears. They can be used if the main story has little to nothing to add, but if 2 or more secondary canon sources are equally reliable, that's where it gets complicated. They didn't even get a chance to give their thoughts on which source was more reliable or if they both were. But as for me, I do think the European website is valid at least compared to what has been generally accepted for other policies as of late.

Also, being called "Bizarre" as a reason for the sky not being real sounds like an awful argument. Bizarre just means really weird, or fluctuated, it doesn't mean fake. It still has statements of it being worlds or dimensions; which is spatial in nature. And I was one of the people who wrote the blue prints for DT's rules on pocket dimension feats, so excluding DontTalkDT himself, I'd be considered one of the go to people for acknowledging the policies. If it's a body of space or parallel dimension and especially universe, the logical assumption is the stars are real, and the stars moving unrealistically is just an example to show that the Black Jewel has strong reality warping powers, it does not discredit the size or scope of the dimension.
 

AKM sama

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To all the questions, I will make this post to address them.

First of all, literally every verse has their own discord servers. Not one, but multiple. Liluzivert is also a part of a Mario server that constantly shittalks the staff and anybody who disagree with them. I am literally a part of many such discord servers centered around verses. Dragon Ball, Bleach, Naruto, One Piece, DMC, Mario, you name it. Every notable verse has not one but multiple servers made by fans. And they are all dedicated to collecting feats for what they think is legit. People making private servers is not bad, and they do it to make it easier to collect feats.

As for the accusations of not contacting neutral admins, I'd want everyone to go through the list of staff members who commented here. I messaged many of them to give their input on this thread, and people like Damage, KingTempest, Starter Pack, Ogbun, Eficiente are all neutral staff members some of which don't even know much about Mario, and none of them are part of the discord server Maverick has created (the only purpose of which was to invite me there to provide me with context for feats because I was pestering him, Armor and Seol in DMs for information).

I am literally in continuous contact with DDM and Dino, and I make sure that I run my problems by them before I make any thread. So they are also in the know of what issues I have regarding which feats. And if I think my questions have been convincingly answered (like in case of when I talked to Dino about the void feat), I don't touch that topic.

I don't appreciate that the thread was reopened just to start this derailment. And with an accusation that this went under Cal's radar on purpose when I have been very open regarding my issues and the thread has been posted publicly for everyone to comment. I have made it clear to everyone I ask for context, that I don't care for Mario and it is not a verse I am invested in, neither do I have any plans of changing whatever tier he is. I just want the profiles to be accurate. And I decided to take a look only because there was heavy controversy going on about it. If anyone, I repeat anyone, has any questions regarding this, approach me and I'll answer all questions and address every doubt. But I will not entertain this behavior here on the thread and every post that is not related to the topic will be deleted and the member will be thread banned.

To all, please get enough information and context regarding things before getting influenced by someone else and blindly accusing people of bias based on a couple of out of context shitposting screencaps.
 
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Eficiente

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That still doesn't explain why staff on a neutral point of view over the subject weren't contacted and this was suspiciously rushed to get the changes accepted and applied.
If I wanted to prepare a 2-C Kirby upgrade with people I could call whoever the heck I feel like, not just to help but to be there, regardless of bias or skepticism, it wouldn't matter because at the end the real CRT would be shown to everyone and need to be accurate to be accepted. This is personal freedom, not scheming.

If I wanted people to disagree with me and argue back at them I could already be making the CRT, preparation be damned.

This is not even what happened here, but still not something you can be against.
 

Armorchompy

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This is completely irrelevant. Let's focus about the feats this thread is actually meant to address.
 

AKM sama

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Right. So what somebody thinks regarding Mario's tier 7 feats isn't the matter of discussion here, and to avoid further derailing on that point, I'll delete the posts like I said.
 
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Still don't see how saying "Wario's basement" still isn't technically true to the castle being turned into the world. Hell, even that's inconsistent as other offical sources says Black Jewel changed Wario's World into a new world.

So yeah I'm in agreement with DDM and DRB still.
 
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AKM sama

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Still don't see how saying "Wario's basement" still isn't technically true to the castle being turned into the world. Hell, even that's inconsistent as other offical sources says Black Jewel changed Wario's World into a new world.
It's a small contradiction, but when you are using something from a website as a fact, then these small contradictions matter because they tell you that the website is not written in a fact-based manner. And moreover, when the only mention of "universe" is coming from that questionable source, which is unfounded in the canon source and the manual, then that's not admissible. Moreover, the game goes to show that a single consistent universe doesn't exist. Every stage has its own different background and sky.

Secondly, even if you say he created a bizarre world, but you see, the world is bizarre (meaning different than ours). Is the sky bizarre? Yes. Do we have any proof to say that sky has actual celestial bodies? No. Can we assume that the energy used to create real life stars should be used to measure this feat even if the "stars" in said feat are bizarre, and most likely a background as can be seen? Absolutely no.

And I was one of the people who wrote the blue prints for DT's rules on pocket dimension feats, so excluding DontTalkDT himself, I'd be considered one of the go to people for acknowledging the policies.
Medeus, this is not how it works. You do know that the standards had to be approved by several staff members, including me? So I know about them just as much as anyone. You can't claim to be an expert and expect other people to follow your word on it even if you're wrong, just because you wrote something that was approved by others.

And since you brought up DT a couple times here, I did contact him about this feat earlier (yes, I contacted a neutral staff member who doesn't really have the time available to help out with CRTs, because I wanted it to be fair) and he found it very iffy to scale Black Jewel's reality warping to his energy attacks.

And I am sure if I contact him here now after more evidence has been presented, he will agree that assuming it to be a universe with real stars and outer space goes against the standards. In fact, since I see a few staff members themselves are confused as to what the standards entail and how they are supposed to work, I'll ask him to see if he can comment.
 
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But it isn't a contradiction. The basement is part of the castle. The statement the basement was transformed into a new world is still true if the entire castle got transformed as well.

And again, even this evidence you use has other sources claiming it was Wario's World as a whole and not just his castle so you can't act like just the castle being transformed is consistent either.

Separate worlds doesn't mean it still can't be a universe also. Many dimensions/universes can have smaller separate structures within them (in fact I currently have a thread showing the Marioverse could indeed be one just like this).
 

AKM sama

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And again, even this evidence you use has other sources claiming it was Wario's World as a whole
Yes, and Wario's world can simply mean his castle, or planet, or anything. I have addressed this earlier. But this again shows that the information present in the website is not completely fact-based. Manual > Europen website of a Japanese game.

Separate worlds doesn't mean it still can't be a universe also.
Very true. But the more worlds you claim, the more evidence you need. Something that isn't present here.

But it isn't a contradiction. The basement is part of the castle.
Yes. But the statement implies that only the basement was transformed. If you claim a source to be accurate and fact-based enough that you are willing to use information from it, then you can't say "even if it is not accurate, it doesn't contradict anything". If I destroy the whole planet and a news website claims that I destroyed all of America, it isn't wrong. But it isn't accurate source of information that you can use to cite in your school project. A questionable claim coming from a source (European website of a Japanese game) that is unfounded in the canon source (game) and secondary canon source (official game manual), is not something we take at face value.
 
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The_real_cal_howard

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“It says he warped the basement when in reality it was the castle”

Are we really using semantics to say that the official source is wrong? Seriously?
 

Armorchompy

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The official, tertiary source that doesn't even get basic details right shouldn't be used as the only evidence for a feat's tier.
 

The_real_cal_howard

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Ah yes because getting everything right but the minor detail of what became the battle scene instead of getting the entire battle wrong is a massive problem. I ain’t gonna pull a whatsboutism as y’all know I like saying “by that logic” but how many verses would get fucked over because of a typo if scrutinized like y’all are doing.

Also tfw the biggest video game franchise of the biggest video game company with more branches than an oak tree gets its European branch called “tertiary”
 

Armorchompy

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*an american-made spinoff with middling sales of a spinoff series of the biggest video game franchise of the biggest video game company gets a half-assed blurb from the european branch called "tertiary", yes

CORRECTION: It's apparently Japanese-made, but was delayed in Japan, shows how high-priority it was ig
 

AKM sama

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It is tertiary because the video game of the biggest video game franchise of the biggest video game company is the primary source, and the manual of the game of the biggest video game franchise of the biggest video game company is the secondary source.

And yes, if you want to take a piece of information from a tertiary source as accurate, which btw is not even mentioned anywhere else in any source of the biggest video game franchise of the biggest video game company and is completely unfounded, you are expected to prove that the source in fact is accurate, which it is not.

Even then, to assume that an actual universe is created with actual sky and actual stars but they are warped into such a way that they look unreal requires olympic levels of mental gymnastics and reaching. Which would require a lot more proof than a questionable tertiary source. Occam's razor supports the simple conclusion that if it appears like a firmament type of thing, then it is one.
 
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Moreover, the game goes to show that a single consistent universe doesn't exist. Every stage has its own different background and sky.
In fairness, a universe can have many different skies and backgrounds. Each building in the hub could send you to a different planet or timezone to explain this; Naturally, the sky on Earth and the sky on Mars will look different, and the sky on a faraway planet even more so, yet they're still within one single consistent universe. (And different sky backgrounds in Mario is nothing new, such as how some worlds in SMB took place at night, and Super Mario 3D Land/World are even better examples of this).

Whilst I'm not saying these have to take place on different planets, at the very least it brings up the point it's just as reasonable a takeaway from these radically different skies as saying there are potentially numerous worlds/universes. Whilst admittedly the cutscene of Wario travelling to the worlds takes place in this white void, which is reminiscent of other scenes in the franchise that play when travelling to another universe, travelling down a Warp Pipe and jumping into a painting to go to another kingdom are given similar scenes despite these taking you to another place in the same universe. (Side note: Whilst the former is a clip from 3D Land that claims it takes you to a Special World, Luigi has been held captive there, so I don't think it's a different universe. Even if it was, 3D Land's director, Koichi Hayashida, has admitted to wondering what it's like for Mario going down a green pipe, so it's likely this cutscene was made to show what Warp Pipes are like in general).
 

DarkDragonMedeus

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First of all, I never claimed I was objectively correct all the time, only that I was one of the main people who wrote it and thus one of the main people who knew full context on the policies. And it was approved by multiple staff members; Matthew Schroeder's 3 point stuff also had point 1 and 3 accepted but point 2 rejected. Logically because it is agreed that there needs to be proof that a dimension was actually created, not just teleported to a starry sky area and not just hand wave and a starry sky background appears. But if a "Worldwide Dimension" was formed, the logical assumption is to assume the outer space is an actual outer space. And having backgrounds that warp rapidly just means the character has great power over it. Last I checked, most of the people who were active on the thread were me, Ultima, and Andy. Even DontTalkDT basically said he didn't have much energy to give a proper debate but basically agreed I hammered the nail with my descriptions. And even Bambu also complimented thinking I was the one hammering the nail on another thread that discussed the same thing. So in other words, I did have approval from several staff members and I kind of do deserve half the credit or a 3rd at worst that DT got for making the page; though he clearly deserves most of it.

But still, we do not really have the biggest set policy on secondary canon sources. But this is the usual practice, we typically ignore it if it's outright contradictory. For example, if the main game says planet while the official website says universe, we go with planet. Likewise, if the main game says Universe while the secondary source says planet, we also go with universe since primary takes precedence. But if the main game just says world or dimension which literally doesn't give us anything beyond a bench mark and not a cap, while the secondary canon is more specific on the universe stuff, the secondary canon source becomes viable. Also, European websites are usually better with translations than Nintendo of America as they likely have translated to multiple languages, not just Japanese to English. But Dark649 has a history of translating Italian sources that turn out to be closer to what the Japanese translations actually are. So that's another reason to give credit. Also, it's mostly Wario's Treasure that gets transformed; debates could be made about basement because that's where most of his treasure is stored, but his entire castle can also be considered part of his treasure as it's a castle he conquered and basically stole. But either way, what he transformed into the parallel universe isn't the relevant part, what matters is the fact that he created a parallel universe in the first place.
 

AKM sama

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But if the main game just says world or dimension which literally doesn't give us anything beyond a bench mark and not a cap, while the secondary canon is more specific on the universe stuff, the secondary canon source becomes viable.
This is not even secondary canon. A European website for a Japanese game would be way farther from just secondary canon. Secondary canon in this case would be game manuals and guidebooks released by the main Japanese branch, or even the Japanese website.

Secondly this is only viable when the secondary canon is written as a matter of fact article. We know it isn't written that way when it gets the most basic thing wrong. That immediately puts the accuracy and research that went into writing it into question. And in such cases, we dismiss it based on our canon rules.

Moreover, when the only evidence for such a huge claim is a questionable statement from something farther away from the main canon that has zero mention of it in the canon material or any piece of media that is closer to it, then that becomes inherently weak.

And when there is visual evidence from the primary canon that blatantly contradicts the presence of celestial bodies in the so called "universe", to get around which you require even more assumptions like "they are warped to be made unreal", then this requires even more solid proof (more than a questionable statement from a secondary canon). In lack of which, we can't treat those "unreal" celestial bodies as actual ones and apply our standards and calculations that are meant for the actual celestial bodies. Accepting these as real would be in clear violation of the very first and foremost requirement of the creation feats standards.

I see this thread has achieved nothing after being reopened. The same arguments are being rehashed and the thread is getting stonewalled for no purpose. It's clear that we disagree with each other, and when that happens, we should take votes into account instead of arguing endlessly. (Which we already did earlier.)
 
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Seol404

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wouldnt it fall under the same situation as using the north american zelda sites for windfish and golden goddesses ratings, which we currently accept (windfish is currently in contention, but that isnt the point)
This isn't a CRT on Zelda, pointing out a possible issue with those pages does not refute the issues with the Black Jewel feat
 
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Website likely not even written by development team of said game is an issue.

And please, its a pretty popular trend to look up "but what does the Japanese version say??". A lot of recent Mario upgrade attempt threads have used them.
 

DarkDragonMedeus

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Nintendo of Europe has a lot more reason to be secondary canon than Nintendo Power, and Nintendo Power has even more reason than Prima Guides; those go without saying. Not going to say whataboutisms even if they're already said above. But the reason the latter are accepted is because Nintendo still gave them permission to elaborate on the lore; Nintendo of Europe's case is they already have permission due to being associated with Nintendo. And this isn't the same case of people asking staff rhetorical questions on Twitter to get a "Yeah sure, whatever" this is a literally published source by the very company that owns rights to the game.
 
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Honestly I feel like if those are only arguments for things, then maybe yeah.

But that would be a bigger general issue to tackle.
Then this just goes into my issue with dismissing the noe statement as lower canon. This logic applies to all games sites and like 99% of game guides (prima,brady) which several verses on site use.
 

Everything12

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Considering how frequently game guides get location names, event triggers, and collectable locations wrong, I'm not sure why people think the game companies endorse and QA them beyond the bare minimum.
 

Everything12

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We have a lot of profiles with inaccurate ratings or that use improper evidence. That just means they have to be downgraded and sorted out instead of giving an unjust upgrade based on inaccurate logic just because it managed to slip by reliable evaluation in the past.
 

DarkDragonMedeus

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Honestly, instead of both sides spamming whataboutisms here, we should just make another thread talking about verdict on secondary canon sources altogether. We regarding how we used back before 2018, but nowadays people complain the opposite. I know it's an even split, and Kepekley at the time made a massive breakdown about how we used to ignore secondary canon works and has consistently complained to other staff members about the consistent double standards combined with immediate rejection without looking into the story of how the sources got made in the first place. I know not all retired staff members are reliable by today's standards, but this was a case where he brought up a lot more good points.

But yes, this is on the list of site wide jobs that we would need a lot of active staff being available to tackle and that's assuming people aren't pushing for other site wide revisions already.
 

Everything12

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Yeah, no offence to anyone, but if you think a guide being stated to be "Officially Endorsed by Nintendo", stated to meet "Nintendo's Licensing Standards", given the " Nintendo Seal of Approval", or went through a "Strict Evaluation Process" isn't mostly marketing smoke and mirrors to state they did the bare minimum QA to make sure it didn't include any unsuitable content or wasn't complete fabrications by a guy who had absolutely no contact with the development team, then I'm not sure what to tell you.
 

Seol404

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It's not even a guidebook it's a random blurb on a website written by who knows? The only credential is that it's Nintendo UK.
 

AKM sama

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im just pointing out we accept those kinds of guides across numerous verses. Seems odd to write off Nintendo of europe and still accept those
Context matters. This is a website not a guide. A website that can't get its facts right, which instantly tells you it's not written to be matter-of-fact thing. It makes an egregious claim unfounded in any other media. The canon source shows visual proof that it is in fact far from being true and would make you go through hoops to explain it which would require ridiculous assumptions. Such assumptions always come with the caveat of proving them with the same amount of concrete proof. Occam's razor goes heavily against those assumptions.

Not everything can be measured by a single scale because there is always some context that is different. This isn't a hard and fast thing.
 
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And please, its a pretty popular trend to look up "but what does the Japanese version say??". A lot of recent Mario upgrade attempt threads have used them.
In fairness, not really. At least for verses not like Mario anyway. A lot of verses here at times get away with not using their original language (and one time where I asked what does the OG language say for one verse trying to get an upgrade, I was outright told it was ridiculous to ask that).

This keeps giving me a reminder actually to make a thread about our translation standards, but thats beside the point for this thread.
 
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The only potential argument that holds weight is if we ignore the universe thing as then the size is unknown.

But again, the game's plot says it transforms "Wario's World" as well, and given we do see it can have stars in the sky the only logical assumption is that it's range extends that far.

Also, they bring up a good point. Why do YOUR guides and excerpts from sites have to hold more credibility than Nintendo of Europe? These arguments all stem from secondary sources. The official game says literally nothing about the castle becoming a world or whatever, all we have is Black Jewel wanting to make his treasure into real evil things.

If you want to argue primary source, i.e. the game itself, then perhaps mention how there's no statement of world creation within it and how it's story is rather barebones to begin with and try to use that. But you didn't. You continue to insist "well that source doesnt count!!" and use others as reference for something as small as a location being mentioned that is a PART of the damn castle anyways, with other sources just as valid saying it warped "Wario's World" too which can indeed support the universe claim.

Oh no, now the castle comment is contradictory! It can't be used!

The Japanese site does indeed claim that Black Jewel transformed the castle into a mysterious world, but it also "could've been written by anyone"

Regardless, even if you want to fully believe in the secondary japanese source, "world" is still at the least determinable at a lowball to mean the planet, given context such as Wario finding jewels from "all across the world" with "world" equating to planet there. At worst, we just get a potential Tier 5 feat from this.
 
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Basically:

- "Black Jewel turned Wario's World into a different place"

- "The castle was turned into a mysterious world"

- "The basement was transformed into a parallel universe"

The castle one is probably most consistent? I haven't checked other translations. But the basement having been transformed is still technically true as it is a part of the castle anyways. The only blatant statement with no relation to the castle is the world one.
 
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The whole planet or ‘World’ being affected isn’t supported by context so I disagree with it being Tier 5, it’s expressly clear it just turned Wario’s castle or basement into a pocket dimension of possibly stellar - universal proportions.

Speaking of, I’m still wholly neutral on whether this is Tier 4/2, but am fine with applying whatever consensus this comes to.
 
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I don't see why you'd disagree with this context but agree to the "context" for Low 2-C Power Stars but you do you

It seens rather blatant world means planet at the very least and it's literally contextually supported I dunno what to tell you.

Not saying it's a definite Tier 5 feat but if Tier 2/4 is scrapped that's clearly the only other way the feat gets a tier.

To clarify I'm not saying the world was effected, I'm saying the world Black Jewel creates would at least have to be Tier 5 given context with what "world" has been referred to as in the same game.
 
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It seens rather blatant world means planet at the very least and it's literally contextually supported I dunno what to tell you.
Mind explaining how planet is contextually supported?

Edit: Ah, saw your edit. I don’t see how that’s substantial either. In this franchise the term ‘World’ refer to areas of less-than-planetary size so we can’t give 5-B for that word alone.
 
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Black Jewel creates a world.

World was used to clearly acknowledge the planet Wario has traveled across to acquire many of his treasures, thus, "world" means planet contextually, and we can assume at the very least the world Black Jewel created can be a planet as the absolute lowest interpretation of the feat.
 

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Ok, AKM has shown me this supposed parallel universe and all I can say is that it shouldn't count as a real universe by wiki standards. Half the sky is night and the other half is day. This is not a real sky nor does it operate as such. We can't assume the bare minimum which is just a starry sky because the game doesn't even give us that.

Like Nintedo seal of approval aside, how did Wario in any way tank the universe's destruction?
 

AKM sama

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World was used to clearly acknowledge the planet Wario has traveled across to acquire many of his treasures, thus, "world" means planet contextually, and we can assume at the very least the world Black Jewel created can be a planet as the absolute lowest interpretation of the feat.

"Black Jewel turned Wario's World into a different place"

You are right that the source that states the above is also the source that acknowledges that Wario travelled the world (on another page). But the problem here is that it states that "Black Jewel changed Wario's world into quite a weird place". World can mean the castle itself since that is the only thing that mattered to Wario at that point. But even if you assume he warped the planet, that would be reality warping on a planetary scale/range. As far as the actual creation goes, he did not create an entirely new planet from scratch, just changed the appearance of the existing one with his RW. Thus changing his world into a weird place by changing its properties.
 
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DarkDragonMedeus

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I do disagree with the random planetary assumptions yeah. I still disagree with the OP regarding the outcome as I still think the source is credible as with our policy on secondary canon sources if primary canon sources are bare bones to begin with. That was one thing I do agree from Fox. But it appears I'm outvoted and do not care too deeply for the specific feat anymore, and I know Dino Ranger Black doesn't like getting pinged back and forth for stuff on the verse anymore either. I know Gyro also had his own thought to give for other things, but I'd rather not rush him.
 
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They're not random. Did you read? God. Why participate when it feels like no one reads?

I'm using the same logic used for other CRTs this site is so hypocritical.

Suddenly contextual evidence to support what "world" might mean isn't okay to use when it has in the past. Okay.

I'm also done here. Why bother to care
 

AKM sama

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Here is current vote tally.

EDIT:

Completely agree with OP: AKM sama, Seol404, Armorchompy, TMaakkonen, Starter_Pack, Ogbunabali, SamanPatou, KingTempest, Eficiente, Damage3245, Cropfist

Disagree with removing the Creation feat: Dino_Ranger_Black, DarkDragonMedeus, GyroNutz, Foxthefox1000, Starsprite53
Can somebody update this list? Nothing new of value has been added here, only more people have ended up agreeing that the feat is not usable. The creation should probably remain unknown.
 
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Completely agree with OP: AKM sama, Seol404, Armorchompy, TMaakkonen, Starter_Pack, Ogbunabali, SamanPatou, KingTempest, Eficiente, Damage3245, Cropfist, Everything12, Sir_Ovens

Disagree with removing the Creation feat: Dino_Ranger_Black, DarkDragonMedeus, GyroNutz, Foxthefox1000, Starsprite53, LuckyEmile, The_real_cal_howard

If anyone missed out, please say agree or disagree clearly.
 

Mr._Bambu

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man what the fuck is with me getting into all these big CRTs of late, this much reading can't possibly be healthy

I agree with the OP, the Wario feat has actual absurd amounts of questionable details. Even if the OP's interpretation doesn't end up being the primary one we stick with down the line, it's simply far too questionable to take this as the highest interpretation. Something something extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

So yeah mark me with completely agree.
 

Antvasima

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It seems like there is sufficient agreement to apply this then.
 

SamanPatou

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What puzzles me the most isn't even the entire discussion about what's it's real, what's not and why, but why would the Jewel's hax scale to its attacks.

I know it feeds on greed and grows more powerful through it, but greed isn't its Universal Energy System. The Jewel doesn't fire lasers made of pure greed, it's just a form of empowerment. It's a rather common trope in fiction to have evil characters getting stronger through the negative emotions of others, but that alone is far from being enough to justify an actual connection between the Jewel's reality warping hax and attacks.
Lasers aren't even the only way its has to attack Wario, it also rams at him, creates shockwaves and fires crates and cartoonish bombs. All of these things can harm Wario and I don't think we have enough evidences to say these powers are all connected to its reality warping.

Moreover, the Spritelings have similar reality warping powers, which are used by them to fix Wario's castle and its surroundings. As you can see from this video, after the Jewel's death its creation fades aways, leaving just a white void. After that, Wario has a brief talk with the Spritelings (whose number depends on how many of them were saved by Wario throghout the game), who then proceed to restore the world with their magic powers.
The more Spritelings have been saved, the better Wario's house will be, ranging from a tent in the forest up to the original shining castle, with various degrees of buildings in the middle.

The white void isn't even a transition as it could look like, because Wario needs the help of the Spritelings in order to have his castle back. If it was just a transition, Wario would just have to wait and his old manor would be back as it was before the game. This tells us that the white void is a permanent one, and even a single Spriteling has the power to restore reality to a basic level (a forest) and grant Wario something (a tent).

The Spritelings are also the ones who sealed the Jewel in the past, which could further point out to a connection or similarities of their powers, with reality warping being a magical ability shared by all of them.
 
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