Vash the Stampede (Trigun) vs Kenshiro (Fist of the North Star/Hokuto no Ken)

[Mozzada]

Stealing ShrekAnakin's idea haha nerd

Both are bloodlusted

Speed is equalized

Vash the Stampede:

Kenshiro:

 

[Mozzada]

Bump

 

[Twellas]

how does Vash deal with passive fear inducement and power-null? Can he bypass Muso Tensei?

 

[Mozzada]

how does Vash deal with passive fear inducement and power-null? Can he bypass Muso Tensei?

According to Vash's page he has resistances to status effect inducement, although I don't recall if that would be effective against fear inducement. As for muso tensei would something like the black hole bullets be able to bypass it?

 

[Twellas]

No idea, you tell me. Muso Tensei turns the user into literal nothingness

 

[ShrekAnakin]

Following.

 

[Twellas]

do you know if Vash resists empathic manip and fear inducement? Because if he doesn't the fight doesn't even start

 

[LordGinSama]

do you know if Vash resists empathic manip and fear inducement? Because if he doesn't the fight doesn't even start

He can be within the general vicinity of Knives, who's passive Fear Hax could cover the range of a city. Neither one would work on Vash due to his Instinct Reaction.



Vash pumps him full of holes that absorb and destroy matter on a Planck level, and they can power null along with expanding to a kilometers instantly.

 

[Twellas]

Does he resist getting pacified tho? And don't forget Ken ridiculously outskills and outhaxes, can instantly kill him with any pressure point attack, has precog and can passively block attacks with his aura

 

[LordGinSama]

Does he resist getting pacified tho? And don't forget Ken ridiculously outskills and outhaxes, can instantly kill him with any pressure point attack, has precog and can passively block attacks with his aura

Getting pacified isn't an issue to Vash, as by nature he's already a pacifist, yet continues to fight due to his will. And no, Kenshiro most certainly doesn't massively outskill Vash, not even in the slightest. Vash has plenty of feats that put him on par with Kenshiro (Ken has the meele advantage whereas Vash dominates in range.) and by SBA they start off 4KM apart, Vash can both teleport, has inter dimensional range, BFR and matter hax along with Causality Manipulation.




Vash snipes and call it a day.

 

[LordGinSama]

Does he resist getting pacified tho? And don't forget Ken ridiculously outskills and outhaxes, can instantly kill him with any pressure point attack, has precog and can passively block attacks with his aura

I'm gonna actually break this down more slowly because now after reading this again I see some very clear errors. Firstly being the notion that getting pacified would halt Vash in any sense of the word, first things first Vash has Instinctive Reaction that works subconsciously and against Vash's own will in order to defend Vash and attack at the same time. And his I.R is good enough to bypass Legato's precognition, even with precognition Legato could barley last against Vash's Angel Wings, and that's ignoring that Vash already resist Fear Hax amongst being a pacifist that also has a no moral persona that Vash can use on a whim.


Secondly Kenshiro is certainly by means does Kenshiro "insanely outskill" Vash and he by hell in no means outdoes Vash in hax. Kenshiro's Pressure Points wouldn't even work on Vash due to his Plant Physiology, making his autonomous nervous system vastly different than anything Kenshiro has ever encountered. Secondly Vash has regeneration to cover that, lastly where did you get the notion that Kenshiro outhaxes a man who can produce massive black holes that destroy on a Planck length level, negates powers and absorb incoming attacks, which can expand to 1 Kilometer instantly and Vash can shoot these from an interdimensional range. Alternatively he can also BFR Kenshiro into a different universe entirely with Sub-Space bullets. Vash as a Plant can also create and collapse Causality and while he doesn't abuse it like Knives does it's still something he can do nonetheless.


Anyway the fight starts from 4KM away, at this point Vash can see Kenshiro clear as day and can snipe him right off the bat with a plethora of Black-hole bullets meanwhile Kenshiro can't sense or even attack Vash from this distance. Kenshiro can try to close the distance but with Vash's Teleportation and his Interdimensional range would be the downfall of Kenshiro as Vash could just stay out of his range and attack out of Kenshiro's range.

 

[Shmooply]

If that's the case, does Kenshiro even have any wincons here then?

 

[Twellas]

I'm gonna actually break this down more slowly because now after reading this again I see some very clear errors. Firstly being the notion that getting pacified would halt Vash in any sense of the word, first things first Vash has Instinctive Reaction that works subconsciously and against Vash's own will in order to defend Vash and attack at the same time. And his I.R is good enough to bypass Legato's precognition, even with precognition Legato could barley last against Vash's Angel Wings, and that's ignoring that Vash already resist Fear Hax amongst being a pacifist that also has a no moral persona that Vash can use on a whim.

being "pacified" doesn't mean that that Vash becomes a pacifist, it means that he's completely drained of his murderous intent and fighting instincts, how is he supposed to fight once those 2 terms are achieved? Ken has the exact same thing in regards to IR, multiple moves that activate unconsciously and Hokuto Shinken just generally works instinctively. Ken has like 3 different precogs, so him resisting it is not a problem, Ken surely has one that will work

Secondly Kenshiro is certainly by means does Kenshiro "insanely outskill" Vash and he by hell in no means outdoes Vash in hax. Kenshiro's Pressure Points wouldn't even work on Vash due to his Plant Physiology, making his autonomous nervous system vastly different than anything Kenshiro has ever encountered. Secondly Vash has regeneration to cover that, lastly where did you get the notion that Kenshiro outhaxes a man who can produce massive black holes that destroy on a Planck length level, negates powers and absorb incoming attacks, which can expand to 1 Kilometer instantly and Vash can shoot these from an interdimensional range. Alternatively he can also BFR Kenshiro into a different universe entirely with Sub-Space bullets. Vash as a Plant can also create and collapse Causality and while he doesn't abuse it like Knives does it's still something he can do nonetheless.

literally nothing on Vash's profile comes even close to matching even just the red berrets in terms of skill, let alone Ken, Vash's profile needs some serious work. Ken can easily solve the problem of Vash having different pressure points by using Tenha Kassatsu, which is ranged and allows him to automatically press all pressure points on his opponent regardless of their distribution. The regen is not a problem, pressure points are death manip. Muso Tensei pretty much negs everything you said

Anyway the fight starts from 4KM away, at this point Vash can see Kenshiro clear as day and can snipe him right off the bat with a plethora of Black-hole bullets meanwhile Kenshiro can't sense or even attack Vash from this distance. Kenshiro can try to close the distance but with Vash's Teleportation and his Interdimensional range would be the downfall of Kenshiro as Vash could just stay out of his range and attack out of Kenshiro's range.

Ignoring the fact that Hokuto's whole point is superhuman stealth and being able to sneak up on people with enhanced senses and aura reading. Ken would easily be able to sneak on Vash, he also has enhanced senses that allow him to hear wispers from 2 kilometers away and see auras clear as day, he would 100% be able to easily locate Vash

As I said, you are also forgetting the fact that Ken's aura, which has a range of hundreds of meters, can automatically block attacks. can Vash do anything against Muso Tensei's NEP?

 

[LordGinSama]

being "pacified" doesn't mean that that Vash becomes a pacifist, it means that he's completely drained of his murderous intent and fighting instincts, how is he supposed to fight once those 2 terms are achieved?

Because Vash
A: Lacks murderous intent.
B: Has Instinctive Reactions that work upon a different conciousness that will act on their own to defend Vash.
C: Kenshiro doesn't have the range to interact with Vash from 4 Kilometers away.

Ken has the exact same thing in regards to IR, multiple moves that activate unconsciously and Hokuto Shinken just generally works instinctively. Ken has like 3 different precogs, so him resisting it is not a problem, Ken surely has one that will work

Tell me how each of them work because I very much doubt they're drastically different from one another. Legato himself has two forms of very advanced Precognition and Prediction which Vash bypassed without effort.

literally nothing on Vash's profile comes even close to matching even just the red berrets in terms of skill, let alone Ken, Vash's profile needs some serious work.

His intelligence section needs to be reworked yes, haven't gotten to that point in the revisions. And no, Vash absolutely demolishes the Red Berrets in terms of sheer skill, hell even groups like The Eye of Michael and The Gun-Ho-Guns have plenty of feats that drastically outdoes anything they've shown. Literal downplay to the highest degree.

Ken can easily solve the problem of Vash having different pressure points by using Tenha Kassatsu, which is ranged and allows him to automatically press all pressure points on his opponent regardless of their distribution.

Firstly no he can't, Kenshiro has never faced an opponent with a drastically different Physiology than anything he's interacted with. Vash is a living Plant, so he wouldn't have nerves to tamper with to begin with making Pressure Points moot. Not to mention that Kenshiro still cant reach Vash from 4KM away with a ranged attack of only hundreds of meters.

The regen is not a problem, pressure points are death manip. Muso Tensei pretty much negs everything you said

Pressure Points gets countered by Vash own unique Physiology. Muso Tensei is irrelevant as he won't be able to activate it before Vash BFR's from a range where Kenshiro can't sense or attack him from.

Ignoring the fact that Hokuto's whole point is superhuman stealth and being able to sneak up on people with enhanced senses and aura reading.

Vash has better enhanced senses and Extrasensory Perception than Kenshiro by leaps and bounds. This is a guy who can see invisible matter (Planck length matter.) and can see for Tens of Kilometers whilst in heavy rain, while seeing strings that are millimeters in size.

Ken would easily be able to sneak on Vash, he also has enhanced senses that allow him to hear wispers from 2 kilometers away and see auras clear as day, he would 100% be able to easily locate Vash

No, his enhanced senses absolutely fall flat in comparison to Vash's eyesight that allows him to view well over Tens of Kilometers while in heavy weather conditions.

As I said, you are also forgetting the fact that Ken's aura, which has a range of hundreds of meters, can automatically block attacks.

Which is moot because Vash has the much superior range and AoE. Show me Kenshiro's Aura ever blocking several attacks from several Kilometers away and each one can expand upwards to Kilometer each, which Vash can spam.

can Vash do anything against Muso Tensei's NEP?

Sniping him before it happens, along with the fact that NEP type 1 isn't stopping Vash from BFRing him to another universe entirely. He wouldn't be damaged of course but he'd still be sucked in and transported regardless of being nonexistent or not.

 

[Twellas]

Because Vash
A: Lacks murderous intent.

Oh, then I guess Ken just wins by default, as "murderous intent" is nothing more than the willingness to kill your opponent/target, so if Vash has no murderous intent, he has no intention whatsoever to kill Ken.

: Has Instinctive Reactions that work upon a different conciousness that will act on their own to defend Vash.

I mean, if Vash has no murderous intent, Ken doesn't even need to fight him, so unless this IR is proactive, I don't see it being useful

C: Kenshiro doesn't have the range to interact with Vash from 4 Kilometers away.

HNK is actually under revision RN, and one of the possible changes is give a "kilometers with aura" range to all the characters with aura, so... and even then, the gap can be closed

Tell me how each of them work because I very much doubt they're drastically different from one another. Legato himself has two forms of very advanced Precognition and Prediction which Vash bypassed without effort.

the first one is basically analytical prediction, which allows him to read muscle movements as well as air movement around his opponent. The second one works by reading the opponent's aura and can only be bypassed by suppressing your "presence", which is kind of a subset of aura, it's not made clear, but only elite fighters can do it. The third is straight up visions of what your opponent is gonna do

His intelligence section needs to be reworked yes, haven't gotten to that point in the revisions. And no, Vash absolutely demolishes the Red Berrets in terms of sheer skill, hell even groups like The Eye of Michael and The Gun-Ho-Guns have plenty of feats that drastically outdoes anything they've shown. Literal downplay to the highest degree.

I'm going off of what's on his profile, and his intelligence section says "Extreme combat abilities honed over nearly a century and a half of combat (extremely skilled gunslinger, able to predict trigger action and bullet trajectories with near perfection)" which is absolute fodder to the average HNK fighter, especially Ken, just as an example, his section states that he has "nearly a century and a half of combat experience", while Ken straight up says that due to the nature of Hokuto Shinken's transmission, it's like he has 1800 years of combat experience and training. While yeah, his intelligence section MIGHT be better than the red berrets, it's no achievement, as red berrets are literal no-name grunts who appear in volume 2 and Ken beats with his eyes closed.

Firstly no he can't, Kenshiro has never faced an opponent with a drastically different Physiology than anything he's interacted with. Vash is a living Plant, so he wouldn't have nerves to tamper with to begin with making Pressure Points moot. Not to mention that Kenshiro still cant reach Vash from 4KM away with a ranged attack of only hundreds of meters.

No, pressure points are not "nerve" related, pressure points are life-energy based, all living being have them, it's just a matter of where they are due to physiology effecting the location of these "life force nodes". Vash 100% has pressure points since he's organic. And again, revisions, his Tenha Kassatsu coiuld very well have a 4km range soon.

Pressure Points gets countered by Vash own unique Physiology. Muso Tensei is irrelevant as he won't be able to activate it before Vash BFR's from a range where Kenshiro can't sense or attack him from.

The first one I already debunked, the second one is also completely wrong, since Muso Tensei is thought based and works even when Ken in literally unconscious, there's no way any of Vash's attacks can hit Ken before his Muso Tensei activates on its own

Vash has better enhanced senses and Extrasensory Perception than Kenshiro by leaps and bounds. This is a guy who can see invisible matter (Planck length matter.) and can see for Tens of Kilometers whilst in heavy rain, while seeing strings that are millimeters in size.

... and? Wow, he has good sight, it sure would be convenient if the fighters were in a place like Central Park which is full of cover and if Muso Tensei gave Ken afterimages that are literally indistinguishible from the real thing, to the point that they can't even be detected via Extrasensory perception

No, his enhanced senses absolutely fall flat in comparison to Vash's eyesight that allows him to view well over Tens of Kilometers while in heavy weather conditions.

w-what? My point was NEVER that Ken has better enhanced senses, my point is that Ken has good enough Enhanced senses to detect Vash, contrary to what you had claimed,

Which is moot because Vash has the much superior range and AoE. Show me Kenshiro's Aura ever blocking several attacks from several Kilometers away and each one can expand upwards to Kilometer each, which Vash can spam.

range and aoe are relevant because...? Also, wow, can you get more specific than that? What we know is that Auras can block physical attacks and they work effectively as forcefields around the user

Sniping him before it happens, along with the fact that NEP type 1 isn't stopping Vash from BFRing him to another universe entirely. He wouldn't be damaged of course but he'd still be sucked in and transported regardless of being nonexistent or not.

again, entirely wrong. I already explained why you can't snipe him out of Muso Tensei, and yes, NEP is indeed stopping Vash from BFRing him to another universe, because there's literally nothing to "suck in and teleport", he has no matter to suck in, Muso Tensei's nothingness is lifted straight out of buddism and it's "deathless absolute emptiness"

I suggest we wait for Ken's revision to be done for this to continue, since it could even upgrade his AP and mess with the keys used

 

[LordGinSama]

Oh, then I guess Ken just wins by default, as "murderous intent" is nothing more than the willingness to kill your opponent/target, so if Vash has no murderous intent, he has no intention whatsoever to kill Ken.

No you totally misconstrued what I said there, Vash himself isn't bloodthirsty so he'll aim to neutralize the target (BFR.) at first, and if need be he will resort to killing the opponent but typically won't.

I mean, if Vash has no murderous intent, Ken doesn't even need to fight him, so unless this IR is proactive, I don't see it being useful

Again, misconstruing what I said. Vash will attack, and with the right amount of force needed to subdue the opponent. His IR will protect from incoming attacks and will attack if the opponent is near Vash.

HNK is actually under revision RN, and one of the possible changes is give a "kilometers with aura" range to all the characters with aura, so... and even then, the gap can be closed

Not my concern at the moment, I get the CRT part but I'm not gonna bother arguing about future abilities. As far as it stand Kenshiro has no win con.

the first one is basically analytical prediction, which allows him to read muscle movements as well as air movement around his opponent. The second one works by reading the opponent's aura and can only be bypassed by suppressing your "presence", which is kind of a subset of aura, it's not made clear, but only elite fighters can do it. The third is straight up visions of what your opponent is gonna do

I'm going off of what's on his profile, and his intelligence section says "Extreme combat abilities honed over nearly a century and a half of combat (extremely skilled gunslinger, able to predict trigger action and bullet trajectories with near perfection)"

There's a lot wrong with Vash's intelligence, firstly he's missing his notable feats along with his scaling not being there but that's like bottom of the barrel. A century for starters is incorrect as he's spent the majority of his 120+ years alive in comabt, missing several characters he scales above etc.

which is absolute fodder to the average HNK fighter, especially Ken, just as an example, his section states that he has "nearly a century and a half of combat experience", while Ken straight up says that due to the nature of Hokuto Shinken's transmission, it's like he has 1800 years of combat experience and training. While yeah, his intelligence section MIGHT be better than the red berrets, it's no achievement, as red berrets are literal no-name grunts who appear in volume 2 and Ken beats with his eyes closed.

Read above and Vash has scaling way, way above Gun-Ho-Guns and Eye of Michael members and his own feats are much much better than what he scales above.

No, pressure points are not "nerve" related, pressure points are life-energy based, all living being have them, it's just a matter of where they are due to physiology effecting the location of these "life force nodes". Vash 100% has pressure points since he's organic.

Pressure Points are absolutely nerve related, where did you get that nonsense from? I can't tell if you meant in Kenshiro or IRL but I'm really hoping it isn't the latter. Anyway, even if it's enegry based Vash doesn't have enegry to manipulate if that's a Kenshiro only thing, even with verse Equalization it'll only work if the power systems are similar. And that's literally not how Plants work, you can't just give someone with a unique Physiology a inverse weakness or system.

And again, revisions, his Tenha Kassatsu coiuld very well have a 4km range soon.

Again, not on his profile. And even with that Vash stil drastically outranges.

The first one I already debunked,

No you haven't.

the second one is also completely wrong, since Muso Tensei is thought based and works even when Ken in literally unconscious, there's no way any of Vash's attacks can hit Ken before his Muso Tensei activates on its own

Doesn't stop him from getting sucked into another Universe along with his surroundings. And that doesn't mean "will work passively" that just means the ability works subconsciously, if he's attacked before he can even process it he isn't pulling off Muso Tensei.

... and? Wow, he has good sight, it sure would be convenient if the fighters were in a place like Central Park which is full of cover and if Muso Tensei gave Ken afterimages that are literally indistinguishible from the real thing, to the point that they can't even be detected via Extrasensory perception

Again and it being full of cover doesn't matter? Kenshiro can either sense nor interact with Vash at such a range, they aren't face to face but 4Km apart.

w-what? My point was NEVER that Ken has better enhanced senses, my point is that Ken has good enough Enhanced senses to detect Vash, contrary to what you had claimed,

Learn how to structure your sentences better than. Because you made it seem that way, and once more untill you get that CRT accepted Ken isn't sensing shit.

range and aoe are relevant because...? Also, wow, can you get more specific than that? What we know is that Auras can block physical attacks and they work effectively as forcefields around the user

Because you can't assume just because someone can defend from a fist or a flurry of attacks means that they can somehow defend against attacks that are several orders of magnitude larger than anything they've shown the ability to defend against. Range is relevant for staying out of Ken's range.

again, entirely wrong. I already explained why you can't snipe him out of Muso Tensei, and yes, NEP is indeed stopping Vash from BFRing him to another universe, because there's literally nothing to "suck in and teleport", he has no matter to suck in, Muso Tensei's nothingness is lifted straight out of buddism and it's "deathless absolute emptiness"

And once again your word isn't the final say so sstop acting as if the debate is over just because you say so. It's being outright dismissive and ignorant of any rebuttals from the opposing side. And considering Vash can interact with already Metaphysical concepts such as Causality his Type 1 NEP means jack. If the surrounding area he's standing on he'll still be sucked in regardless if there's matter of not. And Black Holes are literally portions of space-time so no matter how you chop it he's getting sucked away.

I suggest we wait for Ken's revision to be done for this to continue, since it could even upgrade his AP and mess with the keys used

Agreed.

 

[Twellas]

No you totally misconstrued what I said there, Vash himself isn't bloodthirsty so he'll aim to neutralize the target (BFR.) at first, and if need be he will resort to killing the opponent but typically won't.
Again, misconstruing what I said. Vash will attack, and with the right amount of force needed to subdue the opponent. His IR will protect from incoming attacks and will attack if the opponent is near Vash.

Still, Ken's aura also numbs "combat instincts", so Vash will be debilitated all the same

There's a lot wrong with Vash's intelligence, firstly he's missing his notable feats along with his scaling not being there but that's like bottom of the barrel. A century for starters is incorrect as he's spent the majority of his 120+ years alive in comabt, missing several characters he scales above etc.

I don't know why I would care about stuff that's not on the profile when you're being an ass and saying stuff like "Not my concern at the moment, I get the CRT part but I'm not gonna bother arguing about future abilities", as it stands, Vash gets absolutely skill stomped

Read above and Vash has scaling way, way above Gun-Ho-Guns and Eye of Michael members and his own feats are much much better than what he scales above.

same as above

Pressure Points are absolutely nerve related, where did you get that nonsense from? I can't tell if you meant in Kenshiro or IRL but I'm really hoping it isn't the latter. Anyway, even if it's enegry based Vash doesn't have enegry to manipulate if that's a Kenshiro only thing, even with verse Equalization it'll only work if the power systems are similar. And that's literally not how Plants work, you can't just give someone with a unique Physiology a inverse weakness or system.

of course I'm talkinga bout HNK pressure points, why the **** would i be talking about IRl pressure points? And as I said, it's about life energy, are you organic? Are you alive? Then you have life energy and thus you necessarily have pressure points Ken can use. it's not about giving an "inverse weakness", it's about properly portraying a character's capabilities

Doesn't stop him from getting sucked into another Universe along with his surroundings. And that doesn't mean "will work passively" that just means the ability works subconsciously, if he's attacked before he can even process it he isn't pulling off Muso Tensei.

Again, no, there's nothing, NOTHING to "get sucked", Muso Tensei turns ken into "absolute emptiness", you can't move/effect literal nothingness. Kasumi literally uses Muso Tensei as he's passed out on the floor, what do you mean "if he can't process it he isn't pulling Muso tensei"? No, Vash CANNOT shoot him and outspeed Muso Tensei, that's simply not how it works

Again and it being full of cover doesn't matter? Kenshiro can either sense nor interact with Vash at such a range, they aren't face to face but 4Km apart.

What part of "Ken can hear shit from 2 kilometers away and see auras" don't you understand? Ken can 100% sense Vash, seriously, what are you talking about?

Learn how to structure your sentences better than. Because you made it seem that way, and once more untill you get that CRT accepted Ken isn't sensing shit.

what the **** are you TALKING about? Ken's aura sensing isn't limited to his own aura's range, it's simply something that surrounds the person and that he can perceive, and what does this even have to do with Ken's hearing? jesus christ

Because you can't assume just because someone can defend from a fist or a flurry of attacks means that they can somehow defend against attacks that are several orders of magnitude larger than anything they've shown the ability to defend against. Range is relevant for staying out of Ken's range.

You DO know that the bullets WON'T be out of Ken's aura range, right? Ken also has a fuckton of IR to get past it and Muso tensei to totally neg it

And once again your word isn't the final say so sstop acting as if the debate is over just because you say so. It's being outright dismissive and ignorant of any rebuttals from the opposing side. And considering Vash can interact with already Metaphysical concepts such as Causality his Type 1 NEP means jack. If the surrounding area he's standing on he'll still be sucked in regardless if there's matter of not. And Black Holes are literally portions of space-time so no matter how you chop it he's getting sucked away.

My word is the final say in this case because I'm simply right. Do Vash or his bullets/black holes have feats of interacting with LITERAL nothingness? No? Then he can't effect Muso Tensei, period, there's nothing to discuss, and his surroundings being sucked in means nothing at all, 0, it's not even a matter of "if the space around him gets sucked in he just falls into the void" or whatever, because he can fly


As I said, I suggest we simply stop debating this for now and wait for our respective CRTs, so that we can properly discuss both characters equally, I for one will just unfollow this until both character's changes are applied

 

[LordGinSama]

Would bother replying to the comment above but seeing as how we cleary aren't gonna get anywhere by arguing what's on the profiles so I agree with waiting on revisions.

 

[LordGinSama]

of course I'm talkinga bout HNK pressure points, why the **** would i be talking about IRl pressure points? And as I said, it's about life energy, are you organic? Are you alive? Then you have life energy and thus you necessarily have pressure points Ken can use. it's not about giving an "inverse weakness", it's about properly portraying a character's capabilities

Mainly because you didn't really clarify? And with some of the beliefs on this wiki and some of the comments you can see why I'd get confused between the two. And no, that's not how that works, that's the equivalent of me giving Chakra, Ki or Haki to a character with a vastly different soruce of enegry and a entirely different system. Vash's enegry system is based upon Causality, and his life force is given to him by a nervous system that Ken can manipulate. There is no "life enegry" for Kenshiro to manipulate on Vash as his form of Life Enegry / force is linked to his own Attack Potency / Production of all things.

Again, no, there's nothing, NOTHING to "get sucked", Muso Tensei turns ken into "absolute emptiness", you can't move/effect literal nothingness.

Kenshiro has type 1 NEP which isn't anything comparable to type 2 NEP. Type 1 just makes him, Vash already interacts with dimensions, causality and space-time and even ideas such as Causality. Being able to effect things beyond the scope of Metaphysical constructs such as Causality. Causality is a Abstraction, which is a conceptual process. Along with being able to interact with even lower dimensions than his own.

Kasumi literally uses Muso Tensei as he's passed out on the floor, what do you mean "if he can't process it he isn't pulling Muso tensei"? No, Vash CANNOT shoot him and outspeed Muso Tensei, that's simply not how it works

Which again doesn't make it a passive ability,
hell even this goes against the notion that it's a passive ability as it would have activated much longer into the fight if it was truly passive. All this means is that it triggers if he's knocked out (and not instantly either.) also are we really gonna resort to blatant no limits Fallacies? If Vash is dozens of Kilometers away from Kenshiro and decides to snipe Ken from a comfortable range then its game over from there. Nothing is stopping him from outright sending Kenshiro into a different universe right from the start of the match, Muso Tensei isn't activating in time for it to save Ken from getting sucked away. (Ignoring that type 1 NEP isn't an issue to Vash due to Vash's species already interacting with abstractions on the regular.)

What part of "Ken can hear shit from 2 kilometers away and see auras" don't you understand? Ken can 100% sense Vash, seriously, what are you talking about?

Which doesn't mean shit if the battle takes place more than a several Kilometers away. Literally what part of this is ******* difficult to you? Vash can snipe from literally dozens of Kilometers away perfectly fine, a measly 2 Kilometers worth of range sensing isn't doing shit to a man who can snipe from well past dozens of Kilometers.

what the **** are you TALKING about? Ken's aura sensing isn't limited to his own aura's range, it's simply something that surrounds the person and that he can perceive, and what does this even have to do with Ken's hearing? jesus christ

Okay let me ******* explain this to you like I would my 8 year old nephew because you don't seem to understand how basic common sense works. Ken's Aura only has feats of protecting himself against AoE that both fails in comparison to Vash's own AoE along with the Aura being moot due to several hax properties (Space-Time Absorption, Matter Destruction Hax, Etc.) and hearing? Literally when the **** did I mention anything about hearing? I said sensing, as we were on the topic of Ken not being able to sense Vash from Kilometers away.

You DO know that the bullets WON'T be out of Ken's aura range, right? Ken also has a fuckton of IR to get past it and Muso tensei to totally neg it

Which doesn't matter because they'll be hurling at him at a Non Stop rate along with it containing a plethora of hax that Kenshiro's Aura hasn't been shown to defend against. Your literal entire argument revolves around heavily overestimating Kenshiro's abilities (LMAO at his Aura somehow stopping Vash from transporting Ken.) And I already replied to the Muso Tensei part.

My word is the final say in this case because I'm simply right.

That's not how this wiki works but good job coming off as incredibly arrogant and smug. You aren't right in the slightest and you haven't come even remotely close to doing so, so drop the "I'm right just because I say so" attitude.

Do Vash or his bullets/black holes have feats of interacting with LITERAL nothingness? No? Then he can't effect Muso Tensei, period, there's nothing to discuss, and his surroundings being sucked in means nothing at all, 0, it's not even a matter of "if the space around him gets sucked in he just falls into the void" or whatever, because he can fly

Vash has feats of interacting with Abstractions, Type 1 NEP isn't saving Kenshiro here. Here we have you yet again ignoring and dismissing counterarguments, as per usual. Muso Tensei being Nothingness is moot as Vash already has feats of interacting with Abstractions such as Causality and even lower dimensions (Which turn would make Vash able to interact with binary number of 0 for being able to interact with lower dimensions, which are infinitely below higher ones.)

As I said, I suggest we simply stop debating this for now and wait for our respective CRTs, so that we can properly discuss both characters equally, I for one will just unfollow this until both character's changes are applied

I agree but a lot of what you wrote is BS to be honest.