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Updating The Currently Outdated Conceptual Manipulation Page?

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so this idea cam fro Ultima Reality's comment

"Ultima Reality wrote: That page is ostensibly outdated in relation to the current Tiering System; At the very least we should start using different terminology from "False" and "True" Platonic Concepts, since Platonism is one of those philosophies that people should seriously stop instinctively associating with 1-A. The new system made it mostly arbitrary and dependent on whatever verse it is shown in, tiering-wise, regardless if the verse's depiction of Platonic Forms is "fateful" to actual Platonism or not."

which actually makes sense if you look at this: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Conceptual_Manipulation and compare it to this: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Tiering_System

there's a lack in specification or well anything when talking about the conceptual manipulation page, it doesn't seem to be compatible anymore.

and" antvasima wrote: I am fine with if you wish to improve on the page, but you should preferably discuss the issue with other knowledgeable members regarding the issue, such as Sera EX and Assaltwaffle, first."

this came from this NiGHTS Revision Thread Requesting For Addition of Conceputal Manipulation: https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/3790971#64

the state of the situation is if we don't update the conceptual manipulation pages, this thread and others can not go to pass and get an actual definite stance on yes or no if not properly accounted for.

what is to be done? Ultima Reality will be the lead, i'll be the assistant.
 

DontTalkDT

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What was the result of the debate on the issue we had in the tiering system revision thread again?

Personally I would differentiate Type 2 as regional concepts and Type 1 as non-regional concepts.

Spatial vs non-Spatial essentially.
 
DontTalkDT said:
What was the result of the debate on the issue we had in the tiering system revision thread again?
Personally I would differentiate Type 2 as regional concepts and Type 1 as non-regional concepts.

Spatial vs non-Spatial essentially.
I don't remember

plato's forms and jung's archetypes are not spatial, that's too simple and ambiguous, there's more to it than that and we need it to be standardize and fit with the current tiering system.
 

DontTalkDT

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Type 2 concepts are basically actual concepts, but they apply to just a certain region of space. In that sense they are spatial. I think with that they are perfectly well placed within the tiering system.


It's just that type 1 concepts need to be revised since applying to "everything" / transcending reality in every aspect is just not feasible anymore.

One could re-define them as concepts beyond general dimensional space (of the verses scale), which I mean with non-spatial. Other option would be to give it the High-Godly treatment and make the new Type 1 concepts of a higher plane of reality than the character. Both options have the benifit that they need few revision of profiles.
 
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DontTalkDT said:
Are there 1-A's like that?
Yeah. There are certain 1-A's who got their rating mainly through Transduality, or Platonic Shenanigans.

I believe this is the case with World of Darkness among a few others.
 
DontTalkDT said:
Type 2 concepts are basically actual concepts, but they apply to just a certain region of space. In that sense they are spatial.
I think with that they are perfectly well placed within the tiering system.


It's just that type 1 concepts need to be revised since applying to "everything" / transcending reality in every aspect is just not feasible anymore.

One could re-define them as concepts beyond general dimensional space (of the verses scale), which I mean with non-spatial. Other option would be to give it the High-Godly treatment and make the new Type 1 concepts of a higher plane of reality than the character. Both options have the benifit that they need few revision of profiles.
I get that part but this still doesn't apply to the J-archetypes and The P-forms, we need a way to apply type 1's and type 2's into the system without being choosy and more ethical.

type 1 and 2 needs a bit more better choice of words, justifications and qualifications while being truthful to the tiering system scales, this is whether they're faithful to plato's and jung's theories or not, not every instance in fiction with these two intends for it to be included in the verse as a link of cosmological mannerism but more about the understanding of how people think, unless there's consistent overalls saying it applies to it may be 1-A but if not it's just a lost cause, this is why people have 1-A Mario in their heads.

beyond general space?, you serious? platos forms and jung's archetypes are specifically designed to be emanation's of the eternal, spatiotemporal constructs don't matter in the realm of being, there is no space here Jimbo. planes and dimensions are still argued over for some reason, it depends on the plane and it's name, that enough would be enough to tell but if the material explaining stuff and it just doesn't line up then downgrades are usually the only option.
 
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Ngl I really hope this doesn't affect Dark Tower scaling. Been doing a revision of the verse and oof, if it over uses Platonic stuff this would really throw a wrench into the scaling.
 

Antvasima

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It would have been much better if you had given Ultima the time to properly discuss this issue with other knowledgeable members instead.

We should preferably close this thread in the meantime.
 
Antvasima said:
It would have been much better if you had given Ultima the time to properly discuss this issue with other knowledgeable members instead.
We should preferably close this thread in the meantime.
okay, close it, but when ultima gets into the groove and talks to the other members it could be reopened as a tippy for discussion. I don't want anyone to feel offended or stressed
 
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