- 14,497
- 6,293
Well well well if it's not my n-th Undertale CRT (how is that I am not tired of those yet?).
After tons of minor stats revisions, I decided to actually pull an important CRT for this verse, as it basically reflects on some key elements of this verse...
No I am not talking about insane shit like 2-B Sans/Undyne the Undying, I am talking about other 2 major characters here.
Frisk becomes 2-B in AP (for real)
Yeah... Some people who went to know me kinda are aware of how vocal I was for Frisk's AP not being equal to their Durability. Today I wanted to talk about it, because it's a pretty important discussion regarding also the lore interpretation of the verse, given that some new discoveries and thoughts I had made me take a 180° change on it.
For years a harsh debate in the Undertale fandom emerged ever since the release of the game, that being "Who is Chara talking to at the end of the Genocide Route: Frisk or the Player?".
This question has been a mostly unsolved one in the fandom, both in and outside powerscaling places. The reason is because of the scene being able to be interpreted as Chara talking to either of them, with basically nothing changing in the story.
My idea is that both are involved in Chara's conversation. Why?
We have to realize that the only way the Player is able to interact with the Undertale world is using Frisk, who reflects their desires and behavior, depending on the choices we make them do. The prime example in Undertale is Frisk feeling guilty after punching a dummy in the Pacifist route, but feeling good if they do after killing someone before, while in Deltarune instead is Kris, where, after they take their own SOUL from their body, we can still move the SOUL and not their body, and Noelle mentioning that Kris was behaving weirdly, and having a voice that wasn't theirs during the Snowgrave route.
While Kris' relationship with the Player is clearer than Frisk's, the latter is clearly influenced by the Player and does not really oppose us as much as Kris does, even if though sometimes they do things on their own like attempting to SAVE against Asriel without our input.
Now that my point is taken, this is relevant in understanding why Chara was talking with both of Frisk and us.
As @TheOrangeGuy09 pointed here, Chara does not take control over Frisk for the whole Genocide route, but only in few parts, those being Sans' and Asgore's respective fights, where Chara takes over the FIGHT Button on their own without us doing anything, with the main difference being the damage dealg being made of just "9" digits instead of regular amounts of damage which instead are made of various numbers.
This would technically change Frisk's AP justification with Great DT with them taking on Undyne the Undying and being able to defeat both her and Sans in their intelligence (though Chara should still have that in their intelligence as they did watch the whole thing after all), and changes Undyne the Undying and Sans' hyperlinks from "Chara" to "Frisk" as well in various pages, but that's a minor thing.
The main thing is that Chara must have talked with also Frisk, due to them being still our vessel, and Chara still taking over them both in Genocide and at the end of Soulless Pacifist routes. It makes literally 0 sense for Chara to just pretend that Frisk does not exist in this whole thing, as they were literally part of it, just like we were.
The final piece of evidence that would cement it is that in the Localization Book, it's stated that Frisk uses the same Determination of the Player.
This page isn't exactly the best evidence, as it was not written from Toby Fox, but from Clyde Madelin, who claimed that he cannot answer questions to the game's lore instead of Toby, and that reading too deep into said book can lead in seeing what you want to see, however this statement is interestingly enough supported from some evidence:
However there are some concerns that are worth addressing:
It just means that Frisk is way weaker than Asriel, and that the latter upscales from them, as Frisk was mostly relying on being resilient against him, thanks to them refusing to die when Asriel kills them (something that he directly mentions, meaning that he's confident in killing us over and over), and Asriel essentially one shotting them with his strongest attack.
This would also completely remove the Note 2 from the Player's page, as it'd be completely outdated at this point.
BTW, this is also a nice scan to Frisk's Social Influencing. Plus Aura, given that Determination is clearly a supernatural power.
Low 2-C Photoshop Flowey is also real (+ extras)
For years Photoshop Flowey has been in the mud, forced to be in Tier 7 hell (familiar, isn't it?), with an "Unknown" being used to cope about him being that low. Well, those days are finally over, and he'll be back in being the powerful being he truly is.
I plan to make him Low 2-C. But why. The reason is off him having complete control over the timeline and being capable of overwriting it to his likes. Why is that?
This also means that we get rid of that horrible Low 7-B tier. Yes, it obviously scales to physicals given that the entire thing of DT is amping the physical stats of the user the more DT they have, it happens with Frisk and it happens with Undyne, no reason to assume that Flowey's manipulation and physical strenght are separated when both are reached through his DT boost.
A rebuttal can be Flowey not affecting the timeline due to him not reaching the human world, but the thing is that the Barrier seems to be limiting the influence of meta abilities, given that Frisk could use their DT powers only when inside the Underground, hence why Flowey mentions that he'd need a 7th SOUL to truly achieve his plans, and with the power of 7 SOULs he still needed a considerable effort to destroy the barrier. Plus y'all forget that he still could affect the game itself despite this.
But not just that, we have also this, a revamped Asriel profile!
It has very little differences compared to the current ones, except:
Amalgamates' speed
Well... this is relatively minor instead. They're full of DT and fight Frisk moments before they get to Asgore, plus they're 8-B anyways.
I think that an argument for them can be them also scaling from the Hotland/Waterfall monsters in speed, as Frisk at that point was well after it, so a suggestion can be this:
After tons of minor stats revisions, I decided to actually pull an important CRT for this verse, as it basically reflects on some key elements of this verse...
No I am not talking about insane shit like 2-B Sans/Undyne the Undying, I am talking about other 2 major characters here.
Frisk becomes 2-B in AP (for real)
Yeah... Some people who went to know me kinda are aware of how vocal I was for Frisk's AP not being equal to their Durability. Today I wanted to talk about it, because it's a pretty important discussion regarding also the lore interpretation of the verse, given that some new discoveries and thoughts I had made me take a 180° change on it.
For years a harsh debate in the Undertale fandom emerged ever since the release of the game, that being "Who is Chara talking to at the end of the Genocide Route: Frisk or the Player?".
This question has been a mostly unsolved one in the fandom, both in and outside powerscaling places. The reason is because of the scene being able to be interpreted as Chara talking to either of them, with basically nothing changing in the story.
My idea is that both are involved in Chara's conversation. Why?
We have to realize that the only way the Player is able to interact with the Undertale world is using Frisk, who reflects their desires and behavior, depending on the choices we make them do. The prime example in Undertale is Frisk feeling guilty after punching a dummy in the Pacifist route, but feeling good if they do after killing someone before, while in Deltarune instead is Kris, where, after they take their own SOUL from their body, we can still move the SOUL and not their body, and Noelle mentioning that Kris was behaving weirdly, and having a voice that wasn't theirs during the Snowgrave route.
While Kris' relationship with the Player is clearer than Frisk's, the latter is clearly influenced by the Player and does not really oppose us as much as Kris does, even if though sometimes they do things on their own like attempting to SAVE against Asriel without our input.
Now that my point is taken, this is relevant in understanding why Chara was talking with both of Frisk and us.
As @TheOrangeGuy09 pointed here, Chara does not take control over Frisk for the whole Genocide route, but only in few parts, those being Sans' and Asgore's respective fights, where Chara takes over the FIGHT Button on their own without us doing anything, with the main difference being the damage dealg being made of just "9" digits instead of regular amounts of damage which instead are made of various numbers.
Chara currently is accepted to possess Frisk for the entire Genocide Route. However, this is actually not the case, and they only gain full control after Sans dodges this attack. The reasoning:
So, Chara still keeps their possessing Frisk key (as they do still control their body at times before the Sans battle, as said in their justification for possession), but the reasoning for stats should be the following:
- It makes no sense for Chara to possess Frisk in battles before the last hit on Sans. The reasoning is that Sans has Instinctive Action as said on his profile, so Chara, if we assume them fighting during the entire battle, being unable to land a hit on Sans but somehow being able to do so later does not make any sense, as Instinctive Action would make Sans dodge again, even if Chara “broke the rules”. Heck, even going to the FIGHT button like this by itself is breaking the rules of the game, but Sans still manages to dodge that WHILE BEING ASLEEP, while he is awake during the second hit. It would make far more sense if Frisk was fighting the entire battle with Chara helping out in the end and blitzing Sans on the second hit, as Instinctive Action can be countered by speedblitz.
- During Genocide Route before Sans, all of monsters get their health reduced to their minimum and you inflict the exact same damage as they have HP even if you one-shot them (aka, it will not be all nines). However, when we hit Sans, he gets 9999999 damage, despite having 1 HP and 1 DEF. Same goes with Asgore: he gets 9999999999 damage despite having far lower HP. And it was recently revealed that Chara’s favorite number is 9, and they like things like all nines because there is nothing higher than that which means you’re invincible, and these both facts (9999999… ATK thing and Chara’s strong liking of “9” and thinking that a lot of 9s would make them invincible) together very heavily imply that Chara fully possessed Frisk’s body only after landing last hit on Sans. [SCAN I ADDED: Chara, when destroying the game, also deals 999999999999999999999... damage, which cements the consistency of this].
- Last hit on Sans, Asgore and Flowey are made without player (in real life) doing anything, unlike how it was before them.
So, Chara still keeps their possessing Frisk key (as they do still control their body at times before the Sans battle, as said in their justification for possession), but the reasoning for stats should be the following:
- Attack Potency: At least City Block level, likely far higher (Took over the body of a LV 19 Frisk, who defeated Undyne the Undying at a lower LV)
- Speed: At least Massively Hypersonic+ (Managed to kill Sans without giving him a chance to react)
This would technically change Frisk's AP justification with Great DT with them taking on Undyne the Undying and being able to defeat both her and Sans in their intelligence (though Chara should still have that in their intelligence as they did watch the whole thing after all), and changes Undyne the Undying and Sans' hyperlinks from "Chara" to "Frisk" as well in various pages, but that's a minor thing.
The main thing is that Chara must have talked with also Frisk, due to them being still our vessel, and Chara still taking over them both in Genocide and at the end of Soulless Pacifist routes. It makes literally 0 sense for Chara to just pretend that Frisk does not exist in this whole thing, as they were literally part of it, just like we were.
The final piece of evidence that would cement it is that in the Localization Book, it's stated that Frisk uses the same Determination of the Player.
This page isn't exactly the best evidence, as it was not written from Toby Fox, but from Clyde Madelin, who claimed that he cannot answer questions to the game's lore instead of Toby, and that reading too deep into said book can lead in seeing what you want to see, however this statement is interestingly enough supported from some evidence:
- This very interesting page of the demo manual makes a difference between Frisk and the Player, directly calling the SAVE Point as a manifestation of YOUR Determination.
- During the soulless runs, Photoshop Flowey still can use his SAVE and LOAD bullshit other than his other DT-related powers. How can this be if Chara is around with DT equal to his God of Hyperdeath form?
However there are some concerns that are worth addressing:
- "But Frisk still has their SOUL after soulless routes, meaning that Chara took instead the Player's."
- "Frisk literally died from the game's destruction, you can't say that Chara was talking to them."
- "Frisk couldn't harm Asriel, this is evidence of their DT not amping their AP anyway."
It just means that Frisk is way weaker than Asriel, and that the latter upscales from them, as Frisk was mostly relying on being resilient against him, thanks to them refusing to die when Asriel kills them (something that he directly mentions, meaning that he's confident in killing us over and over), and Asriel essentially one shotting them with his strongest attack.
- "Frisk forgets stuff after a TRUE RESET, meaning that they don't share the same DT as the Player."
This would also completely remove the Note 2 from the Player's page, as it'd be completely outdated at this point.
BTW, this is also a nice scan to Frisk's Social Influencing. Plus Aura, given that Determination is clearly a supernatural power.
Low 2-C Photoshop Flowey is also real (+ extras)
For years Photoshop Flowey has been in the mud, forced to be in Tier 7 hell (familiar, isn't it?), with an "Unknown" being used to cope about him being that low. Well, those days are finally over, and he'll be back in being the powerful being he truly is.
I plan to make him Low 2-C. But why. The reason is off him having complete control over the timeline and being capable of overwriting it to his likes. Why is that?
- He erased Frisk's SAVE, and made up his own up to 6 files. SAVE Files represent the timeline that the user has control over, as seen by Frisk still having one even if they never SAVE.
- Crashed the game and forced its closure, and replaced Frisk's datas with his own, renaming it even "My World", other than renaming it the game Floweytale.
This also means that we get rid of that horrible Low 7-B tier. Yes, it obviously scales to physicals given that the entire thing of DT is amping the physical stats of the user the more DT they have, it happens with Frisk and it happens with Undyne, no reason to assume that Flowey's manipulation and physical strenght are separated when both are reached through his DT boost.
A rebuttal can be Flowey not affecting the timeline due to him not reaching the human world, but the thing is that the Barrier seems to be limiting the influence of meta abilities, given that Frisk could use their DT powers only when inside the Underground, hence why Flowey mentions that he'd need a 7th SOUL to truly achieve his plans, and with the power of 7 SOULs he still needed a considerable effort to destroy the barrier. Plus y'all forget that he still could affect the game itself despite this.
But not just that, we have also this, a revamped Asriel profile!
It has very little differences compared to the current ones, except:
- The 5 keys are now divided in tabbers including all the main statistics, as the keys aren't merely just power up version of the character, but very different forms each with lenghty explanations. Did something like Denji's profile to make it more readable.
- Better organized the God of Hyperdeath tabber in P&A.
- Removed the "HIgh 7-C when the control over the souls is lost" from P. Flowey's durability, as Flowey clearly wasn't weakened during it and was just pretending to be weaker. When the SOULs actually do make him lose power, he cannot even LOAD anymore.
- Added Existence Erasure on Photoshop Flowey.
- Existence Erasure (Erased Frisk's SAVE File. Supposedly erased the entire Underground and everything in it, leaving a black void, although it's debateable if it actually happened due to him later admitting that he needs a 7th SOUL to destroy humanity, and if the Barrier was actually limiting him from reaching the outside world)
- Added Memory Manip on God of Hyperdeath:
- Added Danmaku to normal Flowey:
- Statistics Values, yaaay...!
Amalgamates' speed
Well... this is relatively minor instead. They're full of DT and fight Frisk moments before they get to Asgore, plus they're 8-B anyways.
I think that an argument for them can be them also scaling from the Hotland/Waterfall monsters in speed, as Frisk at that point was well after it, so a suggestion can be this:
- Massively Hypersonic+
- At least Subsonic+, possibly Massively Hypersonic+ if option 1 isn't solid enough.
- Frisk's Peak DT becomes 2-B in also AP, plus they get Aura alongside their SI.
- Chara's possession changes to only when possess Frisk at the end of the route.
- Photoshop Flowey gets Low 2-C and EE and loses their lower dura when losing control over the SOULs.
- Amalgamates scale to higher end monsters in speed.
Last edited:
