Undertale 0-3 ATK/DEF Buff

[Monsters_fight]

Another Undertale upgrade
So the monsters with stats equal to 0-3 are currently 9-A, but they should become 8-B

So, here in the winter alarm clock Undyne was playing hockey against Asgore, Papyrus, Sans, and Toriel. While discussing strategies, Undyne ran into them and knocked them down like “bowling pins”.

This proves 2 things:

1) This proves once more Undyne is able to damage Asgore and Toriel ( 80 ATK/DEF), since this is the second time she knocks Asgore and in a Neutral Ending she defeats Toriel (even if she was holding back).

2) This should give Sans 8-B durability, because he obviously survived getting knocked down by Undyne and since Undyne is 8-B Sans should get 8-B durability.
Since Sans defense is equal to his attack potency ( 1 ATK/DEF) then he should become 8-B. So characters with stats 1-3 should become 8-B, but the hole gets dipper.


A minimal determined Frisk has (0 ATK/DEF), however, they can tank multiple hits from Ruins Monsters, whose attacks go from 4 to 10
In this video for example, you can see Frisk takes multiple hits from Napstablook to die. Napstablook has 10 ATK, while Frisk has 0 DEF, so characters whose stats are from 0 to 3 should be at most 8-B too like the characters whose stats are 4-17.

Also Shyren takes 3 hits from us before dying and Moldsmal could take 2 green-spot attacks before it died. Lesser Dog can also survive 1 attack before dying

• Moldsmal (0 DEF): 2 hits
• Vulkin (0 DEF): one-shotted
• Dummy (0 DEF): one-shotted
• Shyren (0 DEF): 3 hits
• Whimsun (0 DEF): one-shotted
• Ice (0 DEF): one-shotted
• Lesser Dog (2 DEF): 2 hits

Some of the characters with 0-3 DEF can still tank 1-3 hits, meaning they could be 8-B too, but the 0 DEF is a bit inconsistent so I propose:
Stats 0-1: 9-A
Stats 2-17: At most 8-B
Stats 18 and above: 8-B
Shyren and Moldsmal could pottentially become 8-B too

 

[Monsters_fight]

Btw I forgot to mention this, but its kinda of nonsense a Froggit 4 ATK is in the same tier as Asgore 80 ATK, but its far far far far far higher than characters with 0-3 stats.

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

Damn, UT got Dragon Ball-ed

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

Although, I don't think the Undyne point is really consistent? We one-shot Vulkin, Shyren and Glad Dummy with less ATK, afterall.

 

[Monsters_fight]

Although, I don't think the Undyne point is really consistent? We one-shot Vulkin, Shyren and Glad Dummy with less ATK?

Vulkin, Shyren and Glad Dummy have all worse DEF than Sans, and since the stats don't go linear it isn't much of a problem.
Plus in a genocide run Chara can increase Frisk power, so it makes sense why they can one-shoot most of the monsters.

Undyne prob wasn't at her max when she hit Sans and the others, but if it was strong enough to knock Asgore and Toriel then it should be counted

 

[StrymULTRA]

Damn remove the color from the text that's not Hyperlinked because it's hard to read for someone with the dark theme.

Anyway... no.

This proves 2 things:

1) This proves once more Undyne is able to damage Asgore and Toriel ( 80 ATK/DEF), since this is the second time she knocks Asgore and in a Neutral Ending she defeats Toriel (even if she was holding back).

2) This should give Sans 8-B durability, because he obviously survived getting knocked down by Undyne and since Undyne is 8-B Sans should get 8-B durability.
Since Sans defense is equal to his attack potency ( 1 ATK/DEF) then he should become 8-B. So characters with stats 1-3 should become 8-B, but the hole gets dipper.

You do realize that wasn't a physical fight but hockey, right? This proves literally nothing for scaling, as they weren't physically fighting (and they weren't even serious, they were playing, ya know).

A minimal determined Frisk has (0 ATK/DEF), however, they can tank multiple hits from Ruins Monsters, whose attacks go from 4 to 10
In this video for example, you can see Frisk takes multiple hits from Napstablook to die. Napstablook has 10 ATK, while Frisk has 0 DEF, so characters whose stats are from 0 to 3 should be at most 8-B too like the characters whose stats are 4-17.

Frisk's DT changes to match the character they're fighting against, hence why they jumped from 8-B to High 7-C right in the moment they were fighting Photoshop Flowey. It just means that Frisk has 0 ATK/DEF in non combat situations and has more when they fight someone.

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

I feel like better examples would be Moldsmal (ATK 6 DEF 0) and Lesser Dog (ATK 12 DEF 2).
Both of which can take a few hits, if I'm aware.

 

[Monsters_fight]

Damn remove the color from the text that's not Hyperlinked because it's hard to read for someone with the dark theme.

Anyway... no.

You do realize that wasn't a physical fight but hockey, right? This proves literally nothing for scaling, as they weren't physically fighting (and they weren't even serious, they were playing, ya know).

Frisk's DT changes to match the character they're fighting against, hence why they jumped from 8-B to High 7-C right in the moment they were fighting Photoshop Flowey. It just means that Frisk has 0 ATK/DEF in non combat situations and has more when they fight someone.

Yeah, I know it wasn't a physical fight, but Undyne still needed to do a force to knock all of them down, even if they were all holding back. Cant we say she was serious the moment she knocked all of them like bowling pins?

I get the second point.

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

There's also Photoshop Flowey not getting insta-oneshot when his DEF dropped to 0, but we're not ready for that one.

 

[StrymULTRA]

I feel like better examples would be Moldsmal (ATK 6 DEF 0) and Lesser Dog (ATK 12 DEF 2).

Going down in 2 hits isn't downscaling. It's basically saying that we should downscale from 9-B because we can survive being hit by a car.

Yeah, I know it wasn't a physical fight, but Undyne still needed to do a force to knock all of them down, even if they were all holding back. Cant we say she was serious the moment she knocked all of them like bowling pins?

It all happened off screen, and Undyne has a tendency to exaggerate basically anything she says to make it look more heroic, so I wouldn't really count it tbh.

 

[Monsters_fight]

I feel like better examples would be Moldsmal (ATK 6 DEF 0) and Lesser Dog (ATK 12 DEF 2).
Both of which can take a few hits, if I'm aware.

If Frisk cant one-shoot them then we can use that I guess to say 0-3 Stats are 8-B

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

Going down in 2 hits isn't downscaling. It's basically saying that we should downscale from 9-B because we can survive being hit by a car.

Moldsmal literally tanks better than Froggit.

 

[Monsters_fight]

It all happened off screen, and Undyne has a tendency to exaggerate basically anything she says to make it look more heroic, so I wouldn't really count it tbh.

But isn't she also kinda violent, even when she is happy? Considering her personality I can imagine her knocking them down because of some sport.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Moldsmal literally tanks better than Froggit.

Well, yes, but Froggit is the exception because of the DEF being higher than the ATK in its case, aka I'd just chop it off as an inconsistency, unless you wanna argue that 0 > 4 tbh.

But isn't she also kinda violent, even when she is happy? Considering her personality I can imagine her knocking them down because of some sport.

While true, I can't imagine her using the same strenght she uses to fight just for hockey tbh.

The fact that it's off screen just harms this argument even more as we'd go in assumptions otherwise.

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

Well, yes, but Froggit is the exception because of the DEF being higher than the ATK in its case, aka I'd just chop it off as an inconsistency, unless you wanna argue that 0 > 4 tbh.

There's also Lesser Dog, who, while probably the most fragile Snowdin Monster, still can take damage better than most Ruin Monsters.

 

[Monsters_fight]

Well, yes, but Froggit is the exception because of the DEF being higher than the ATK in its case, aka I'd just chop it off as an inconsistency, unless you wanna argue that 0 > 4 tbh.

While true, I can't imagine her using the same strenght she uses to fight just for hockey tbh.

The fact that it's off screen just harms this argument even more as we'd go in assumptions otherwise.

Her strength was still enough to knock down a holding-back Asgore and a holding-back Toriel who are both 80 ATK/DEF.
So she needed to use a good amount of force to do so.

Also, shouldn't this be similar to the moments where she knocks Asgore in her training and defeats Toriel in a neutral ending? I know these feats happened in fights but think about it. Asgore was also holding back to Kid Undyne and its implied Toriel did the same. So in both feats Undyne knocks them while holding back.

And now that we think about it. To knock Asgore and Toriel shouldn't Undyne use a similar force to when she did to Asgore in the past and to Toriel in the neutral ending?

 

[StrymULTRA]

There's also Lesser Dog, who, while probably the most fragile Snowdin Monster, still can take damage better than most Ruin Monsters.

Why do I have a feeling you disagree with me everytime for the sake of doing so.

Idk if you wanna still nitpick on mere HP percentanges to argue it, given that HPs in Undertale are fucky and not the most consistent thing ever made.

Her strength was still enough to knock down a holding-back Asgore and a holding-back Toriel who are both 80 ATK/DEF.

Prove they were using literal combat level of strenght for ******* hockey of all things.

Also, shouldn't this be similar to the moments where she knocks Asgore in her training

Training, aka combat.

defeats Toriel in a neutral ending?

To actually overthrow her, not playing WWE with her.

Asgore was also holding back to Kid Undyne

Yeah, a kid. Undyne knocked Asgore way later.

its implied Toriel did the same. So in both feats Undyne knocks them while holding back.

In combat related situations, not games.

 

[Monsters_fight]

Prove they were using literal combat level of strenght for ******* hockey of all things.

Training, aka combat.

In combat related situations, not games.

Undyne is always in combat mode. Uhhhhhhhhhhhh.... I have no good argument for that. The only thing I can come up is saying Undyne is violent and she likes breaking stuff and yeah stuff.

Ok fine, I give up with this argument

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

Idk if you wanna still nitpick on mere HP percentanges to argue it, given that HPs in Undertale are fucky and not the most consistent thing ever made.

I wouldn't call it nitpicking, it's the exact same thing that got the 4-17 ATK/DEF squad to 8-B, afterall.
Also Shyren turned out to be way tankier than I gave her credit for, she takes less damage than Lesser Dog lol

 

[Monsters_fight]

Yeah, a kid. Undyne knocked Asgore way later.

Btw I forgot

 

[StrymULTRA]

I wouldn't call it nitpicking, it's the exact same thing that got the 4-17 ATK/DEF squad to 8-B, afterall.

The entire reason is some monsters being able to take two hits instead of just one before falling down. This is where I'd draw the line between if they scale or not, as 1 hit is definitely not it, but two is way more notable.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Ok fine, I give up with this argument

Well, if you want we can close this thread if you conceded.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

After reading the discussion, meh
Maybe given Undyne’s enthusiasm you can give possibly, but that’s about it

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

The entire reason is some monsters being able to take two hits instead of just one before falling down. This is where I'd draw the line between if they scale or not, as 1 hit is definitely not it, but two is way more notable.

Moldsmal can do that, I believe. The other two can work as support more than anything.

 

[Monsters_fight]

Well, if you want we can close this thread if you conceded.

Not yet.
Now that Shyren is mentioned, I'm pretty sure if the player doesn't do a critical hit to Shyren, she is able to survive 1 hit. ( Critical hit is 75 damage, and she has 66 hp). Cant we use this as an argument or she is obligated to survive 1 critical hit to count?

If this is invalid then I guess we can use Moldsmal

 

[StrymULTRA]

Moldsmal can do that, I believe.

No.

Now that Shyren is mentioned, I'm pretty sure if the player doesn't do a critical hit to Shyren, she is able to survive 1 hit. ( Critical hit is 75 damage, and she has 66 hp). Cant we use this as an argument or she is obligated to survive 1 critical hit to count?

Just 1 hit is invalid as we'd fall again in "humans would be Tier 9 from surviving car accidents".

If this is invalid then I guess we can use Moldsmal

0 DEF is inconsistently potrayed in the game as Vulkin gets one shotted real bad even when not yellow.

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

No.

That's at LV2?

 

[StrymULTRA]

That's at LV2?

Can't find a recording of that at LV 1 tbf.

 

[Monsters_fight]

Can't find a recording of that at LV 1 tbf.

If it was LV 1 then maybe they could survive 2 critical hits.

 

[Monsters_fight]

0 DEF is inconsistently potrayed in the game as Vulkin gets one shotted real bad even when not yellow.

But Frisk was at LV 12 and they had a burnt pan.
If Frisk was at LV 1 and had the the stick would they be able to one-shoot Vulkin? If they couldn't then it wouldn't be inconsistent with Moldsmal surviving 1/2 hits before dying

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

So I went and tested it, Moldsmal could take 2 green-spot (I think those deal the most damage?) attacks and died to the third, so yeah

 

[Monsters_fight]

So I went and tested it, Moldsmal could take 2 green-spot (I think those deal the most damage?) attacks and died to the third, so yeah

Great, so we can use this. Since Vulking would prob survive at least 1 green spot attack with the same weapon and with Frisk being at LV1

 

[StrymULTRA]

Great, so we can use this. Since Vulking would prob survive at least 1 green spot attack with the same weapon and with Frisk being at LV1

No.

 

[Monsters_fight]

No.

Did you take the stick and play the game until you found a vulkin, just to prove we were wrong?

Anyways, can't I come up with the excuse that Vulkin only died because she had less HP? Vulkin has way less DEF in the code stats than Moldsmall so that's why Vulkin gets one-shooted, so this is a inconsistency caused by code stats, cant we ignore it since its the game stats that count?

 

[StrymULTRA]

Did you take the stick and play the game until you found a vulkin, just to prove we were wrong?

Nah.

Anyways, can't I come up with the excuse that Vulkin only died because she had less HP? Vulkin has way less DEF in the code stats than Moldsmall so that's why Vulkin gets one-shooted, so this is a inconsistency caused by code stats, cant we ignore it since its the game stats that count?

We prioritize CHECK stats over Data ones, as otherwise Asgore > Toriel, or Sans has more dura than MTT NEO.

 

[Monsters_fight]

We prioritize CHECK stats over Data ones, as otherwise Asgore > Toriel, or Sans has more dura than MTT NEO.

If so, then you should ignore this inconsistency, since its caused by code stats. The only reason why Vulkin gets one shooted while Moldsmal can survive 2 hits is because Vulkin has a way lower DEF in code, but since we prioritize CHECK stats we can ignore this inconsistency

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

Lesser Dog (2 DEF), they can take 2 green-spot hits but dies to the third, like Moldsmal.
Lesser Dog has way more leftover HP from the 2nd hit, though, so it's probably impossible to kill them in 2 hits, even with the best rng.

 

[StrymULTRA]

I mean, ngl, but noticed that Shyren also takes a decent amount of hits at LV 1, so...

This makes me want to rethink about the whole thing, as Sans and Asgore being in the same tier is genuinely ridiculous ngl.

 

[Monsters_fight]

This makes me want to rethink about the whole thing, as Sans and Asgore being in the same tier is genuinely ridiculous ngl.

A Froggit is already 8-B so I wouldnt mind both being at the same Tier tbh.

 

[StrymULTRA]

A Froggit is already 8-B so I wouldnt mind both being at the same Tier tbh.

Sans is explicitly being noted to be able to deal just 1 damage due to him being the "easiest enemy" and being 1 ATK/DEF, so him being still somehow in the same tier as those is just stupid tbh, as his physical weakness is the most peculiar thing about him.

Also Shyren takes 3 hits from us before dying, which makes me think that stats are genuinely inconsistent as ****... Maybe @Roachman40 was right in disagreeing with it being the only basis.

I'd be more inclined into nulling the 8-B scaling for 4-17 and give it back to 18 and above at this point, given that it'd lead to weird shit like this.

"But aren't Undyne and Muffet's dura 8-B off this too"? Well they can take like 8 hits before going down, and mostly importantly, they're bosses, who have more narrative importance than those randoms.

Am I cruel for turning this in a downgrade? Pretty much, but I realized a bit too late the implications of this wack scaling.