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Eficiente

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Continuing from this thread.

Keys

Kirby hasn't always been as strong, he was around 5-A in earlier games, 4-A by the time he defeated Drawcia, and a certain higher level when he fought Magolor. As you can see here, he really had no reason to be as powerful as Nova around the time he beat Marx, but by the time he could defeat Marx Soul (Marx w/ Nova's powers) and Star Dream (Same "species" as Nova) he was clearly up on that level.

Making keys for those 3 stats would be messy given normal powers, Copy Abilities and OE. So I propose Kirby to have 1 key at 5-A right before he defeated Drawcia (Pre-Canvas Curse), 1 right before Star Allies (Pre-Star Allies), and a current one (Post-Star Allies), with other notable characters like MK only having the latter 2 keys as they are, and final bosses being 5-A and 4-A if needed to.

Low-tiers

Mostly already being done in this thread; The black hole calc needs to be gone and the planet Popstar-cracking feat needs to be re-calc'd. The Helpers will scale to Iron Mom's planet-cracking feat, being weaker but able to beat her.

Helpers also need to have 2 keys; as regular enemies and as Helpers, as at least in Star Allies they scale to the friendship/positive-based Accelerated Development Fighters 2 establishes, and so they should "possibly" have the same tier & stats as the top-tiers, as they could have used said ability to grow at that power. All Star Allies have that Accelerated Development, + the few characters who showed it in Fighters 2.

Lifting Strength

For the top-tiers after the fight with Magolor it should be Multi-Stellar as Kirby, Meta Knight, King Dedede and Bandana Dee can withstand being near and survive getting sucked into a black hole that quickly rolls the space in the setting shown, including the stars in the background of it, with the cast getting only slowly attracted while trying to outrun or outfly it.

For scaling, in Star Allies MK has an attack where he flies at foes but can be intercepted with an attack, making a clash and pushing him back while he's overpowered for a bit.

Master Crown's feat

From Magolor's profile; "His defeat caused the destruction of interstellar parts of the reality where he was, including the place where his fight took place and the 15 areas where the Sphere Doomers were fought in Return to Dream Land, when each of them had multiple stars"

Now we know for sure that those areas were not in the same dimension, each was in a different dimension:
Which makes sense as we know Another Dimension is a multiverse, something that was always the case since Return to Dream Land, and the dimensions there are universes. So there are 2 possible takes to the crown's feat:
  1. Only the interstellar areas around Popstar and Halcandra were being destroyed in those 15 or 16 universes, meaning that the feat remains the same.
  2. The destruction was reaching all of those 15 or 16 universes, hence it moved from universe to universe and could appear in the same areas of them. Meaning it's a 2-C feat.
I personally find the latter more sensical, but the former wouldn't be out of the realm of possibility and so it should be kept too. So I propose "4-A, likely 2-C" for this.

On a more casual note and as I often presume, those Jap. guides we don't have likely say that Another Dimension in general was being destroyed, and Sakurai knows how many universes has that, but eh.

Void Termina blows up

Void Termina gets defeated, blows up, Kirby & co. escape the explosion while passing by stars and a galaxy from a lateral point of view, then as they keep moving away we see from a frontal point of view another galaxy in the background and that the explosion is expanding onto Kirby & co., there's a cut and next thing we know they're all off the vehicle they had with Kirby unconscious, being thus implied that they were reached by the explosion and therefore it having reached those 2 galaxies, as well as the other galaxies seen in the area where the fight took place. Or, it maybe didn't reach the first galaxy but had to cover an area of a higher size, as it was expanding omnidirectionally while it moved passed that galaxy, there were also 4 or so galaxies seen in the fight with Void Termina, all around the same distance away from the fight; if the first galaxy shown in the escape wasn't one of them then the results get higher, if it was then the explosion got big enough to reach into 1 galaxy and, as it expanded omnidirectionally, it should have reached the space of those others galaxies too.

Idk how to word that shorter, maybe a calc should say it rather than the profile.

They would be "3-B, likely 2-C" by this point.

Bonus

We need this 5-A calc evaluated to update some Kirby manga pages.

We need this crazy speed feat evaluated to update some novel Kirby pages, the logistics need to be evaluated together with the math and so that's something, but nothing out of this world.
 

Eficiente

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I do disagree with Lifting Strength tho, that seems much like a Durability feat other than a Lifting one, so I disagree with Multi-Stellar LS
If they didn't have Multi-Stellar LS they would have been crushed and moved at the same speed as the rest of the area, the durability of the feat comes from the interstellar area being rolled from and attracted into the black hole, but the cast wasn't affected as much.
however, Kirby did once put the stars back into the sky, so you could use that as a Stellar/Multi-Stellar LS feat which I would agree with
Those are fake stars, the real ones are in the background. You collect those stars as you play the game, they're smaller than Kirby.
 
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Ok, so by your own logic, if I can outstand and resist someone trying to rip my head off (when they have the strength to do so) is more an LS feat rather than a durability one yes?
 

Eficiente

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If you can stand like normal in gravity that crushes other regular humans, and you still can walk, run and lift things up, then your regular LS is above said pressure. If it's an implosion coming from all sides and making a whole city come into it but you can walk away from it while really near the source of it, then the pressure needed to crush and push you needs to be higher, someone with a LS lower than the pressure of that implosion isn't going to crush or push you better than how the implosion could.
 
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I'll use a simpler example to understand the black hole feat.
Imagine you get hit by a tsunami. What'll happen? You'll get sent flying into a nearby wall with the water and then you'll get knocked out or crushed. Now imagine you stand there and take the tsunami and move through it's waves and even run despite the immense pressure of water piling up on you. Clearly it isn't you tanking it, if it wasn't an LS feat but a dura feat it would mean that you'd get hit back into the wall but take no damage. In this case the gravity of the black hole is the tsunami and Kirby and gang run through it like the chads that they are and don't get absorbed despite stars getting absorbed.
So yes, it would be an LS feat.

Overall i agree with the upgrades.
 
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I agree with this however it seems a minor thing has been forgotten Adeleine who scales to the helper physically but isn't actually a helper should also be noted as scaling to the post star ally cast the same way as helpers.
I will also mention ultimate choice supports helper scaling.
 

CrimsonStarFallen

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That galaxy feat should be calculated, just eyeballing it probably gives inaccurate results.

I agree with the rest though, specially Magolor's 2-C feat.
 
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Under the currently accepted cosmology, this makes perfect sense. I also agree with the posts above regarding the 3-B feat. Especially Pink_God, since I too, have no clue how to get an accurate result for a feat like this. That leaves me with only one question regarding dimensional walls:

We have an idea of how fast those dimensional walls moved by scaling them to Landia and the Lor who could barely escape them, and as such, we can also get a time frame for how quickly they consumed each of those universes (ignoring the distance between them of course). If we had nothing to guess such a time frame from. would this simply be a 4-A feat with 2-C range?
 
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Under the currently accepted cosmology, this makes perfect sense. I also agree with the posts above regarding the 3-B feat. Especially Pink_God, since I too, have no clue how to get an accurate result for a feat like this. That leaves me with only one question regarding dimensional walls:

We have an idea of how fast those dimensional walls moved by scaling them to Landia and the Lor who could barely escape them, and as such, we can also get a time frame for how quickly they consumed each of those universes (ignoring the distance between them of course). If we had nothing to guess such a time frame from. would this simply be a 4-A feat with 2-C range?
Ik I might just not be knowledgeable but wasn't the feat the collapse that we magolor (everything shattering to pieces) and the dimensional walls just spreading everywhere as a shockwave of sorts? Also we kinda restore those areas using the energy spheres too.
 

Eficiente

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Under the currently accepted cosmology
If by chance you want to say something, you can do so.
We have an idea of how fast those dimensional walls moved by scaling them to Landia and the Lor who could barely escape them
That is calc stacking.
Also magolor insta nuked the dimension he was in
The interstellar area around that fight went down pretty fast, that much is true. The rest of that universe might have taken longer, we don't know.
 
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If by chance you want to say something, you can do so.
It kind of deserves its own thread. Are we allowed to have two major Kirby threads going on at once? Especially when they both relate to the cosmology in some way?
That is calc stacking.
I'm using your own words here. Like I said, the upgrade makes sense to me. I'm just trying to play devil's advocate here. I've seen this argument brought up before so I'm using it. How do you even differentiate a 4-A feat with 2-C range from a straight up 2-C feat?
 
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It kind of deserves its own thread. Are we allowed to have two major Kirby threads going on at once? Especially when they both relate to the cosmology in some way?

I'm using your own words here. Like I said, the upgrade makes sense to me. I'm just trying to play devil's advocate here. I've seen this argument brought up before so I'm using it. How do you even differentiate a 4-A feat with 2-C range from a straight up 2-C feat?
I mean the difference between high 3-A/3-A and low 2-C is the fact that in tier 2 you affect the time of the given universe which is apparently an automatic thing when you breach into other universes with your deatruction in the case that you aren't using portals. The Dimensional walls are clearly moving in a pretty wave like way without any portals meaning that they fully breached the other universes.
Generally anything below tier 1 is rather easy to differentiate.
4-A to 3-A is the destruction of limited 3D space
High 3-A is the destruction of infinite 3D space
Low 2-C is basically any tier (though it mostly only gets accepted in case it is 3-A+ due to consistency issues) but 4D. Basically and uncountably infinite amount of 3D snapshots.
2-C is plain multiverse nuking. Not only do you go through the presumably higher dimensional wall between universes but you also affect their space-time. There was a recent thread a few weeks ago or maybe more which spoke on that issue and that's what i heard
 
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The interstellar area around that fight went down pretty fast, that much is true. The rest of that universe might have taken longer, we don't know.
Magolor causes everything around him to shatter to bits and all we see are bits of the dimension flying around, bits bigger than what they seem to be, entire interstellar areas and more. We see no stars, no anything, it's just the bits of what we saw get nuked and emptiness with weird shapes in the back. I think saying that when you turn a dimension full of stars into a dimension with shattered space and endless emptiness (that then gets erased with dimensional walls) it would not be a stretch to say that it got fully nuked.
 
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Also @Peptocoptr27 i believe that your take on the cosmology revision needs to wait. There's not only the fact that this could help people be more lax around your ideas but also the fact that it would be a great backup plan as many variants of a cosmology can be accepted at the same time (Example: Arceus is 2-B and 2-A and due to that many legendaries are 3-C and high 3-A)
 
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I mean the difference between high 3-A/3-A and low 2-C is the fact that in tier 2 you affect the time of the given universe which is apparently an automatic thing when you breach into other universes with your deatruction in the case that you aren't using portals. The Dimensional walls are clearly moving in a pretty wave like way without any portals meaning that they fully breached the other universes.
Yep. That's right. Given this, The 2-C upgrade is so blatant that I don't even think "Likely 2-C" does it justice, but since I also want Kirby to have a 3-B key at least for a moment, I can't really say I care.
Also @Peptocoptr27 i believe that your take on the cosmology revision needs to wait. There's not only the fact that this could help people be more lax around your ideas
I also think so, but I'd personally be fine either way. I definitely don't mind waiting and it's probably the best call. That was the original plan when I first saw this thread. It's kind of a shame that it showed upon the same day that I was ready to post it, but no one is to blame for that.
but also the fact that it would be a great backup plan as many variants of a cosmology can be accepted at the same time (Example: Arceus is 2-B and 2-A and due to that many legendaries are 3-C and high 3-A)
I thought of the same thing at some point, but first of all, the point of my thread is not to upgrade the Kirby cast (anymore). It's a cosmology upgrade. Not every 2-C feat would automatically become Low 1-C from it. You could argue that it does in Kirby's case (hence why I made very first clumsy blog where I got carried away and became way too ambitious despite the fact that I wasn't even pulling info from the right statements), but the feats that could scale are so debatable and ambiguous that they would need their own thread if we wanted to go there. Secondly, your solution would leave Kirby with 3 possible keys for each of his individual keys. In this case, "4-A, Likely 2-C, Possibly Low 1-C". This doesn't seem ideal since those kinds of terms are supposed to be used sparingly and they would be used for every top tier in the verse.

Now, unless Effi insists that I make my CRT right now, I don't think we should derail any further.
 
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maybe we should have made a thread on the CRT board and not the staff discussion... Though i guess there would be random newbies whining about it
 
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(I was allowed by Ant to comment)

After reading through this, yeah i agree with everything, tho yea that galaxy feat would need a calc
 

Eficiente

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I'm using your own words here. Like I said, the upgrade makes sense to me. I'm just trying to play devil's advocate here. I've seen this argument brought up before so I'm using it. How do you even differentiate a 4-A feat with 2-C range from a straight up 2-C feat?
If character A barely dodges a bullet and character B can dodge it by walking or running with many obstacles, then the latter scales to the former, scales as in are comparable, not that a calc should be made putting the peak speed of character A on how they dodged that to scale to character B doing the same to get the latter's speed.

Also calling ranges with tiers is not advisable.

I guess we can finish this after we may get an accepted calc for Void Termina's feat.
 
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I believe you should ask someone specific for a calc, waiting for someone to volunteer to do so won't get us anywhere.
I brought the feat up to chariot but idk if he's gonna do it or not. The rest is up to you to decide.
 

Starter_Pack

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Why don't we just table the necessary calc for now and focus on the stuff we can do without it until someone decides to actually come through?
 
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in case the calc is correct, i believe that the mid end would be the bare minimum we can take as assuming that all galaxies we see there are 3000 light year dwarfs is a really big stretch
 
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The only possible issue I see with your calc is that the low end seems really low given the background info Effi provided, but I'm not a calc evaluator, so what do I know?
 

DragonGamerZ913

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Explosions in space are impossible normally, so I would think to not use the explosion method. However, in this instance, it seems very clearly to be an explosion so at this point I don't know.
 

DragonGamerZ913

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Also, I think the distance + galaxy size should be the explosion diameter, not the radius. I personally prefer the mid-end so let's go with that.

Radius = 1.0894031e+19 / 2 = 5.4470155e+18 km

Explosion Yield = (5.4470155e+18 / 0.28)^3 = 7.36210046e+57 kilotons = 3.08030283e+70 Joules; Multi-Galaxy level (3-B)
 
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So here's the deal about scaling.

we currently have the characters at 4-A, likely 3-C because of the FH scaling.
the 4-A in Star allies is 4x Magolor's feat (4-A version) whilst the 3-C is 120x the feat (as each heart potentially scales to the 4-A feat)

Would we keep the scaling?
Because in the case that the feat we will use scales to 3-B then that would scale the 4-A, likely 2-C key to 3-C
If it is 3-C then it would scale anywhere from absolute topline 4-A to low end 3-C.

Also the 4x scaling now disappears...until the tier 2 part

Now about 2-C
Would the 120/4x scaling work on it?

Would creating 4x master crowns make Void scale to 64 universes or would it just be 4x basline 16 universes?

Would we use Friend Hearts to make VT scale to 120x basline 16 universes?
 
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So has what Eficiente suggested been accepted?
Most people who have come to the thread (3 mods and some notable members) have agreed with the upgrades though we are currently discussing the slecifics of the upgrade and the calcs for the 3-C/3-B tier we're getting
 
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So here's the deal about scaling.

we currently have the characters at 4-A, likely 3-C because of the FH scaling.
the 4-A in Star allies is 4x Magolor's feat (4-A version) whilst the 3-C is 120x the feat (as each heart potentially scales to the 4-A feat)

Would we keep the scaling?
Because in the case that the feat we will use scales to 3-B then that would scale the 4-A, likely 2-C key to 3-C
If it is 3-C then it would scale anywhere from absolute topline 4-A to low end 3-C.

Also the 4x scaling now disappears...until the tier 2 part

Now about 2-C
Would the 120/4x scaling work on it?

Would creating 4x master crowns make Void scale to 64 universes or would it just be 4x basline 16 universes?

Would we use Friend Hearts to make VT scale to 120x basline 16 universes?
As ridiculous as it sounds, I don't see why not. A Low 2-C feat can't be 2-C no matter how many multipliers you give it, but to my knowledge, the same doesn't apply to 2-C feats becoming higher 2-C or even 2-B. Unless someone has a debunk for the scaling chain we already had, 120 universes into 2-C should be fine to apply.
 
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So now the last thing is deciding if we use my calc or use Dragon calc
Oh boy :/
I'm not a calc evaluator like I said, but I don't understand how an explosion that consumed more than 2 galaxies can be lower than 3-B, so I'm leaning towards your calc. The way Effi describes the feat (which sounds about right to me) should make it even more impressive, too.
 
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I was asking to be sure. You see according to this wiki the distance between universes can differ.
So the difference between 3 universal destroyer and a 4 universal destroyer is treated as incalculable and potentially infinite. So yeah you'd need like and uncountable infinity multiplier or so i heard. That's why I'm asking as I'm not 100% sure
 
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I was asking to be sure. You see according to this wiki the distance between universes can differ.
So the difference between 3 universal destroyer and a 4 universal destroyer is treated as incalculable and potentially infinite. So yeah you'd need like and uncountable infinity multiplier or so i heard. That's why I'm asking as I'm not 100% sure
The distance differs across series, but if it has no reason to differ in the same series unless there's evidence to make that assumption from. For example, the distance between universe 1 and universe 2 has no reason to be any different than the one between universe 2 and 3 in the same cosmology, and the same would should go for 16 or 120 universes. Nothing in our tiering system seems to contradict this and it just makes perfect sense.

By the way, do we need more staff approval or are we almost done? All we need to do is chose between the two calcs and figure out the scaling, right?
 
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The distance differs across series, but if it has no reason to differ in the same series unless there's evidence to make that assumption from. For example, the distance between universe 1 and universe 2 has no reason to be any different than the one between universe 2 and 3 in the same cosmology, and the same would should go for 16 or 120 universes. Nothing in our tiering system seems to contradict this and it just makes perfect sense.

By the way, do we need more staff approval or are we almost done? All we need to do is chose between the two calcs and figure out the scaling, right?
Yes, we need to chose one of the two calcs and we need to chose the right scaling. I think we need Effi for the scaling whilst the whole ordeal with the 3-C/3-B calc has to be decided by those who know more about calcs.

Another option is separating the revisions, adding the 3-C/3-B later
 

Eficiente

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The 2-C AP is always 15 or 16 universes and far into the same amount, if you guys believe otherwise then that's on you to make a CRT or staff thread to have the tiering say how and why would upscaling changes that.

Math wise idk which calc is more correct, was the latter done as in "actually the former calc is incorrect, this one should be more accurate" or "the former calc may be correct, but this method should also be taken into consideration"? It seems to be the former and if so the last calc should be used, once evaluated.

Also to note, small parts of the terrain of the battle survived this while
  • Void Termina can rip it open with his axe, which the Star Allies can survive hits of.
  • Void Termina can nail his lances into it, which the Star Allies can survive.
  • The vehicle of the Star Allies seems to rip away some small parts of the terrain with a fully charged shot. Or at least I think that's what the animation shows, it's weird as they can even do it in the air.
If I'm not missing something then this should all be more reasons to scale to the explosion.
 
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So according to you

we get

5-A | At least 4-A, likely 2-C | At least 3-C, likely 2-C

but

how does the scaling i mentioned above work?
Do we use the jamba hearts to downscale the second key or not?
 
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Yo @Efficiente
The 3-C feat is being put into question in DargonGamer's calc blog. Could you please respond to Migue in there!
 
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Could we try getting now Star Allies info? I want to see if those jamba hearts created only the bosses, or they created the entire realms HiAD takes in, this would solidify the 2-C tier if it's true.
Remember there is also the possibility that Void is the creator of the Kirby verse, or at the very least, Kirby's universe.
 
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Could we try getting now Star Allies info? I want to see if those jamba hearts created only the bosses, or they created the entire realms HiAD takes in, this would solidify the 2-C tier if it's true.
Remember there is also the possibility that Void is the creator of the Kirby verse, or at the very least, Kirby's universe.
idk man we don't know where to find that type of info so...
 
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Either way what matters right now is agreeing on the scaling and dealing with the 3-C feat

What we have gotten fully accepted:

-key separation
-4-A, likely 2-C
-2-C scaling 120x baseline 16 universes (as in, 16 universes but very deep into it)

What is still under discussion
-the 3-C feat
 

Eficiente

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No need to go over things unrelated to this thread (that we won't really get a conclusion of), you guys can use a Kirby discussion thread for that.
 

Eficiente

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I had to delete both of those comments for being misleading, I can be asked in private rather than here if needed to.
 

Moritzva

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I wasn't there for the original thread, but the content in this post seems solid.
 
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By the way, do we have the exact number on Kirby's multi-stellar lifting strength? If not, wouldn't it need a calc, too?
Also, what does his 5-A key scale to speed wise?
 
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