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Tier 3-A/Low 2-C Saint Seiya Ap Revisions (Gold Saints, and Scaling)

i shall post my next counter argument in somewhere between 3 ~ 12 hours from now. currently doing irl stuff, and doing a bit of side research. When monday comes. my responses will slow down considerably.
 

You confuse the anime with the manga: Seiya with the Ichor (blood) of Athena and despite making a surprise attack was unable even to touch Radamanthys and his subordinates (Valentine etc) have literally stomped the bronzes.

Just a note: the Ichor nullifies the effects of the Hades Castle barrier

From my point of view it seems that users of this Wiki express their opinion without even having read the original manga .... Does this often happen around here?
 
I strongly agree wiith what Acharon said, except for the ikki part

Ikki in that chapter had a great reactive evolution, in a moment even shows an aura of his constellation when Kanon is commenting of his power, and even Hades awakes because ikki's cosmos being aggressive. Basically this is what is described in "earlier" chapters of Saint Seiya; For awake to the seventh sense it's just necessary to ignites the cosmo to the point cause it to flare.

0025-025
0025-027
0025-028
0025-029
0025-037
0008-007
 
just a quick question that i thought of while doing research

Suppose the manga canons got split

but what about the anime canons? I mean naturally their separate from the Manga, but would Omega still be canon to the anime adapations. Im talking about only the 4 or 5 movies, and the classic series anime.
 
Has a interview from Gō Wakabayashi and he say that the omega is an a adaptation from manga with elements of the anime, but just a few elements, like the Steel Saints.

The movies have to scale between themselves, and if you take a look on our page verse, that is good enough for us to scale the way is splited. But just needed two sub tabber on "Saint Seiya" as;

  • Saint Seiya (tab)
    • Classic (Tab) | Next Dimension (Tab)
 
Where does Gō Wakabayashi say its an adaption off the manga?? I seen claims that Gō Wakabayashi says its a continuation off of overture, and the movies.
 
Leonida85 said:
You confuse the anime with the manga: Seiya with the Ichor (blood) of Athena and despite making a surprise attack was unable even to touch Radamanthys and his subordinates (Valentine etc) have literally stomped the bronzes.

Just a note: the Ichor nullifies the effects of the Hades Castle barrier

From my point of view it seems that users of this Wiki express their opinion without even having read the original manga .... Does this often happen around here?
Click to expand...
It doesn't change what I said and you don't seem to understand the center of that point, kurumada supervised the anime, even though there were differences, the difference between Radamanthys and seiya was the same, and even among the low-middle level specters, the bronzes were barely matched.
 
It doesn't change what I said and you don't seem to understand the center of that point, kurumada supervised the anime, even though there were differences, the difference between Radamanthys and seiya was the same, and even among the low-middle level specters, the bronzes were barely matched.

No, you wrote that only Seiya can archive miracles and you use pegasus vs Radamanthys as an example in the castle, when this does not happen in the manga. So your answer doesn't make sense
 
Leonida85 said:
No, you wrote that only Seiya can archive miracles and you use pegasus vs Radamanthys as an example in the castle, when this does not happen in the manga. So your answer doesn't make sense
Click to expand...
Are you disqualifying all my argument and logic just for the sake of an example? You didn't understand the heart of the matter, I just wanted to point out the difference between the ways of using miracles between the classic and the G episode, the fact that seiya vs Radamanthys was exclusive to the anime don't belies what I said, I could name others examples only involving the original manga if you want.

But if you still don't understand that it is just an example to show a difference, then it cannot be helped.
 
Are you disqualifying all my argument and logic just for the sake of an example? You didn't understand the heart of the matter, I just wanted to point out the difference between the ways of using miracles between the classic and the G episode, the fact that seiya vs Radamanthys was exclusive to the anime don't belies what I said, I could name others examples only involving the original manga if you want.

But if you still don't understand that it is just an example to show a difference, then it cannot be helped.

No, you won't change my mind because your answers have shown me that you could use the examples of the manga, instead to corroborate your position you use the anime, which diverges excessively from the manga, so you acted with malice just to show that you are right .

Farewell and have a good day
 
Leonida85 said:
No, you won't change my mind because your answers have shown me that you could use the examples of the manga, instead to corroborate your position you use the anime, which diverges excessively from the manga, so you acted with malice just to show that you are right .

Farewell and have a good day
Click to expand...
I really don't know how to answer that, but pointing it out isn't going to make your accusations the truth here, if you're not able to refute it, then you only can point out that I acting with malice.
 
What the heck are we even arguing.....

UGM was proposing the upgrade with collected feats & statements from different installments of the franchise.

I know, just using the Classic ones is extremely vague. But the Spin-offs are supporting it IMO

But now... wth are we even arguing?
 
Diinou HotHead said:
What the heck are we even arguing.....
UGM was proposing the upgrade with collected feats & statements from different installments of the franchise.

I know, just using the Classic ones is extremely vague. But the Spin-offs are supporting it IMO

But now... wth are we even arguing?
Click to expand...
Attack potency inconsistencies in the franchise between canons, and separating profiles is what it became.


I will post my counter arguments much later.

 
Eh. IMO they are actually becoming more consistent.

Each have like 1 or 2 (sometimes vague) statements of 3-A stuffs. Which, on their own, are too vague to use as feats. But when we put them together, I think they get along fine.
 
There's a contradictory lore and a large distinction of abilities between the main series and the others titles. We need separate the Saint Seiya continuities, and this a thing not exclusive here, we do this for other verses aswell.
 
I disagree with contradictory lore when looking at primary canons. I only see contradictory lore when someone brings up secondary, or teritary canons. Other verses also don't get this. its hit or miss, some verses do, and some verses don't. So saying "Other verses as well" is kind of vague.
 
I really don't know how to answer that, but pointing it out isn't going to make your accusations the truth here, if you're not able to refute it, then you only can point out that I acting with malice.


Maybe I was too vague.

The fact that you used anime events that don't exist in the manga to support your argument about the miracles of the saints shows that you are not acting as an honest person and that your only purpose is to downgrade the gold saints.

Have a good day and farewell
 
Leonida85 said:
Maybe I was too vague.

The fact that you used anime events that don't exist in the manga to support your argument about the miracles of the saints shows that you are not acting as an honest person and that your only purpose is to downgrade the gold saints.

Have a good day and farewell
Click to expand...
I am not downgraded them, I just showed the difference between the use of miracles among the golden saints, you can stop pointing out false accusations and try to put me as guilty or with bad intentions here, it is obvious that you are unable to refute and you are appealing to ad hominem to disqualify my position and argument, so far you have not yet shown that you are able to refute them.

And you speak as if the golden saints lose to Radamanthys is different from the anime to the manga, only that it is almost totally the same.
 
I strongly recommend to stop these personal attacks, this is not healthy and will not take anyone anywhere. Besides, if you don't want to hear someone, leave the thread.
 
I am not downgraded them, I just showed the difference between the use of miracles among the golden saints, you can stop pointing out false accusations and try to put me as guilty or with bad intentions here, it is obvious that you are unable to refute and you are appealing to ad hominem to disqualify my position and argument, so far you have not yet shown that you are able to refute them.

And you speak as if the golden saints lose to Radamanthys is different from the anime to the manga, only that it is almost totally the same.

You know very well that I am not referring to the defeat of the golds, but to Seiya's ability to create a miracle where the golds had failed, when in reality this did not happen.

Code: 
Alonik I strongly recommend to stop these personal attacks, this is

Said what he considers the gods to be galaxy level and that Hades only created "buildings"

People like you is better to lose you than to find you.

Farewell!!
 
@Alonik

  • "Just your opinion. Here we use a lot WoG, and the word of Kurumada will continue to be more valid you thinking it is valid or not. "
"If the feat is correctly depicted over multiple canons any of these can be used to judge the feat. Should different results be reached by judging the feat through multiple canons, the result of the primary canon will have priority." [1]

"Databooks are considered secondary cano since scans tend to contradict them. It should be noted that this is often evaluated on a case - by - case basis." [2]


"Should said alternative versions originate within the main continuity, they would also be considered primary canon, and allowed, if notable enough." [3]


  • "It's just visual, i'm going to need to mark in red that the Ryu Sei Ken started to get spiral in shape and so Aldebaran called him a big bang? Because i said it in the last argue, and it was just ignored."


I already made my case why this is a valid feat. You still haven't convinced me why it isn't. Visual representation, with other canon scaling, along with in series scaling from the same part of the series, and we get direct wording that it si a big bang.


  • "Yes, but you just need attemption just that there are several guides together. "


Then why didn't you distinguish them?


  • "I know all this, and you still don't understand. In scan it is said that it has a smaller power that a smaller version of the big bang, it does not have pottency attack on a smaller range. Separate the sentences, this has nothing to do with range or conservation energy, but rather about what description shows that it is an energy equal than a smaller energy than 3-A (big bang)"


'For someone who wants to separate canons. You do seem to love bringing up other canons instead of using the classic canon for your point. "A power that rivals the big bang, but focused on a single point." [4] and since your using Saint Seiya Omega Scans, it would still be a Low 2-C Feat. '[5]


  • "Like i said, you just use what fits best to upgrade the character."

Im not using what fits best. Im giving full scans, full context, and even linked a few chapter and linked where i got sources. I cite my sources.


  • "No matter the date, unless the information has been retconed, it will continue to be valid."

according to the wiki. its treated as secondary, or teritary canon, and disregarded if it contradicts the primary canons.


  • "And is this different from you using the site? Also, WoG and Encyclopedia is widely used here on this wiki, so it remains realiable."


Widley use doens't mean widely accepted. There is still some other people who have their feathers ruffled for certain verses having them being used.


  • "Has a interview from Gō Wakabayashi and he say that the omega is an a adaptation from manga with elements of the anime, but just a few elements, like the Steel Saints."


"Wakabayashi: I first went to Kurumada Production when we started the project for a new animated series. As Saint Seiya Next Dimension was already being published, I went there to askMasami Kurumada what he intended to do. In order not to interfere with the story of Masami Kurumada, we ended up opting for a new character as the protagonist rather than usingSeiya . As more than 20 years have passed since the previous TV series, we thought that there would probably be many new viewers discovering the franchise through this series, and this is howKōga was born., a new hero ready to enter the world of Saint Seiya in the company of viewers." [6]


"September 26, 2013, "Saint Seiya ╬®" 's first comic book is released! A new Pegasus meteor fist is back! The first comic of "Saint Seiya ╬®", the first TV series to be released in 23 years, is on sale! 'Not only Seiya and Shun who played an active part in the old TV anime version, but also steel Saints' and female Saints set in TV anime original appearance! Using the next generation of Pegasus Saint Koga as the protagonist, the figure depicts Athena Saint, who protects the earth's peace, fighting an enemy who wants to control the earth." [7]


Seems more connected to the anime adapation of the series


@Archaro



Aiolia has Zeus's weapon, his lightening. Which is the power to kill a god. Shaka is special in his own regard. Iapeto said taht Shaka has the protection of a God of another Dimension. There was also a scene where Aiolia once had the protection of Athena helping him. Sort of like her giving him power.


  • "Half of these haxs you mentioned do not exist, I could even say that it is wanker if you did not mix all the works of saint seiya, Tenbu Horin's only function is to seal the enemy's movements, make any attack ineffective and ignore any defense to his effects against the senses, that's all."


BFR, and pocker reality creation [8] [9] [10] [11] [12]

Sense Manipulation [13] [14]

Law Manipulation [15] [16]

Sealing the enemy movement should be paralysis inducement unless you want to lable it as sealing.


its hax act as both offense, and defense at the same time.. Though, i don't remember why this point was brought up so lets just move past it as it feels like derailing.


  • "It is not, while in Episode G the miracle represents the ability to fight against the destiny imposed by the gods, the classic miracle is only to raise your cosmos to the limit and beyond, the assassin is naturally the ability to do the impossible itself, the same goes for omega and The Lost Canvas, some are similar, but never the same, only with the same effects, to increase the saints's cosmos, thus predicting an increase in all its attributes."


Miracles = a stat amp (Allows one to surpass their current opponent even Gods, this would be tier "Varies") probability manipulation, resistance to fate manipulation, and even a limited form of self-fate manipulation, but this has been represented equally thoughout all woks of saint seiya. [17] [18] [19] [20] [21]


  • "This is reversing the burden of proof, if you cannot prove that he used the seventh sense, then he did not. Does the fact that he gets stronger every time he returns and battle doesn't imply anything, how much stronger does he get? How strong is he during the fight against aiacos? If you cannot answer in a concrete way, then it is guesswork."


I never claimed he did, or didn't. You were the one who made the claim he did not. How strong does he get? Strong enough to surpass Shaka. Strong enough to match Kanon. Strong enough to over power/outspeed 3 judges. If your looking for a concrete answer. They activated the 7th sense in extreme danger cases when they are being pushed to the brink, but ikki being hte saint of the pheonix is also special in the regards that his Reactive Power Level helps him raise his Cosmo to an insane level to match or defeat opponents. I think you intentionally setup the questions to make me look bad here, and i know your going to yell fallacy on this.


  • "He just says that the barrier is the only explanation for why Radamanthys defeated them so easily, the gold saints have similar levels of cosmos, the same goes for shaka (but without their eyes open) and saga, and without the barrier, they can unleash all their power, so Radamanthys could not predict the level of the 3 gold saints before because of that."


This doens't contradict anything.. "Defeated them so easily" means the 3 would still have put up a valiant fight but still be defeated in the end.


  • "The point is to show the difference between classic and episode G, the golden saints can perform miracles at will in Episode G, even if the enemy is much stronger or they are weakened, they get stronger just because they want to, as Mu vs Iapeto, while in the classic, only seiya was able to perform a miracle against Radamanthys with the barrier, and yet, only managed to push him and break his sapuris (that's because he underestimated the attack of the pegasus)."


Shiryu achieves a miracles with an opponent stronger than him with that Chrys.. i can't spell.. guy

Seiya awkens a miracle when fighting Misty


The 7th sense was regarded as a miracles for the bronze saints to awaken by Dohko [22]

The 8th sense was a miracle they needed to awake

Defeating Hades was considered a miracle

some of the battle aganist the Gold Saints were considered miralces

they awakened a miracle with Poseidons wall.
 
Your first replicate​
"If the feat is correctly depicted over multiple canons any of these can be used to judge the feat. Should different results be reached by judging the feat through multiple canons, the result of the primary canon will have priority." [1]

"Databooks are considered secondary canon since scans tend to contradict them. It should be noted that this is often evaluated on a case - by - case basis." [2]


"Should said alternative versions originate within the main continuity, they would also be considered primary canon, and allowed, if notable enough." [3]
Well, for me it's okay not to use databooks, i don't really care in this subject for now. Besides, we can already take out the galaxy level from Galaxian Explosion, because there is no statement in the primary canon (SS Classic and ND), which states that it is that level, just translations errors. In the general is just Solar System at best.

About the third subpoint on this, this example is from alternative versions in alternatives timeline, just that.

Your second replicate​
I already made my case why this is a valid feat. You still haven't convinced me why it isn't. Visual representation, with other canon scaling, along with in series scaling from the same part of the series, and we get direct wording that it si a big bang.
Argument from belief, this just a fallacy. Also, at the first point you criticized secondary canon, and are now using scale "with other canon", it's a invalid point.

Your third replicate:

  • Then why didn't you tell them apart? You on purpose cheated?
I think you misunderstood me, you're making a storm for no reason, you asked me for a link that had the hypermyth, i gave to you a link that had what you need, this is in your own screenshots. I even gave you the right link of the only chapter that had only the hypermyth, you went to other chapter and used this as an arguments. It's only your problem, not mine.

Your fourth replicate​
'For someone who wants to separate canons. You do seem to love bringing up other canons instead of using the classic canon for your point. "A power that rivals the big bang, but focused on a single point." [4] and since your using Saint Seiya Omega Scans, it would still be a Low 2-C Feat. '[5]
At no time did i use omega as an argument for the classic, i was already using this as a unique argument and into omega, whereas you allowed me to use it when you used Aquarius Tokisada scan, in the end of time.

And you're putting words in my mouth again, i never said they were different canons, i said they didn't have the same temporal continuity because of the gaps around the several writers of saint seiya and his several titles.

About the Low 2-C, it just proves that the big bang is Low 2-C, AE is a version in energy conservation/release (don't use strawman to say i'm talking about range issues), much smaller than the big bang, as has already been said above. This circular reasoning in this subject is already noise.

Your fifth replicate​
and i provided proof that he did create them which comes from primary canon, and the official website would be secondary canon.
Stop of fragmenting my rebuttals, my answer it was for:

  • and i provided proof that he did create them which comes from primary canon, and the official website would be secondary canon.


Something you're all this time saying that SECONDARY CANON SHOULD BE NOT USED, and you only use secondary canon when this fits best to upgrade the character, and this is the perfect subject of what i pointed.

Your sixth replicate​
according to the wiki. its treated as secondary, or teritary canon, and disregarded if it contradicts the primary canons.
That's a good point, but this has to be approved for saint seiya verse, because what i'm using here is just things that fit like primary canon within the work of saint seiya. If you look at the main page of Saint Seiya both hypermyth and Taizen are there to enrich the profiles, even has taizen scans in certain profiles, such as that of Saga, for example.


Your seventh replicate​
Widley use doens't mean widely accepted. There is still some other people who have their feathers ruffled for certain verses having them being used.
It is not only used when it is the Death of the Author, and the author explaining how you should read a kanji is not the death of the author, this should be apply by common sense, without even questioning how a WoG, even more so because the author is literacing the reader to understand his work.

Your eighth replicate​
"Wakabayashi: I first went to Kurumada Production when we started the project for a new animated series. As Saint Seiya Next Dimension was already being published, I went there to askMasami Kurumada what he intended to do. In order not to interfere with the story of Masami Kurumada, we ended up opting for a new character as the protagonist rather than usingSeiya . As more than 20 years have passed since the previous TV series, we thought that there would probably be many new viewers discovering the franchise through this series, and this is howKōga was born., a new hero ready to enter the world of Saint Seiya in the company of viewers." [6]


"September 26, 2013, "Saint Seiya ╬®" 's first comic book is released! A new Pegasus meteor fist is back! The first comic of "Saint Seiya ╬®", the first TV series to be released in 23 years, is on sale! 'Not only Seiya and Shun who played an active part in the old TV anime version, but also steel Saints' and female Saints set in TV anime original appearance! Using the next generation of Pegasus Saint Koga as the protagonist, the figure depicts Athena Saint, who protects the earth's peace, fighting an enemy who wants to control the earth." [7]


Seems more connected to the anime adapation of the series
Well that looks like fit in what i said, and the second point, it's just saying it's a TV series, that's just the obvious.

However, about the first point, if you notice he went to consult Kurumada to not disturb the chronology of the next dimension, it sounds a lot like he wants to continue the kurumada classica manga.

Besides, at a interview to FigureOu published in march 2012, Gō Wakabayashi answered;

Here's the link:

4) How was the plot designed?

  • Wakabayashi: When I joined the project as a producer, it came down to "we're going to do Saint Seiya". The two points which were however posed of office were that one would have characters rising again and always - which is after all the essence of Saint Seiya- and that the characters would wear Cloths during when they fight. At the beginning, we planned to either make a new story around Seiya and his companions, or a story following a generation that would succeed that of Seiya. I then brought these two suggestions to Kurumada Production, Masami Kurumada's studio, author of the original work. He asked me to explain to him what kind of Saint Seiya I wanted to create, and I then told him that I wanted to produce a new Saint Seiya that could appeal to a new generation who did not know Saint Seiya, everything by inserting elements able to please old fans. Masami Kurumada then told me "it would be good if you took a little more freedom". This response incredibly encouraged me.
11) To understand the history of it before, you had considered a hero who is not of the constellation of Pegasus, is not it?

  • Wakabayashi: Among the first ideas I wrote, one of them suggested a main character who would have been a descendant of ninjas and would have been of the constellation of the Wolf, with a Cloth with the shape inspired by the Japanese wolves. After all, there had never really been a Saint with a strong Japanese style. In addition, the idea of ninjas referred to "F├╗ma no Kojirô", and therefore remained compatible with the vision of the works of Masami Kurumada. I also told myself that a Saint ninja would attract foreign audiences. In the end, the hero chosen was a Saint from Pegasus, but as the chief director Morio Hatano told me that this Saint ninja would really become an excellent character, we kept him (laughs). And so it became Haruto.
In addition, it has a direct claim from the director of Saint Seiya Omega, which he says he was very inspired by the manga of SS classic, and not the anime. Here's the link;

7) What pieces did you take from the original work, and which parts did you follow from the ancient Saint Seiya?

  • Hatano: The heart of the work is of course the idea of a group of young people never losing hope and getting up again and again to emerge victorious from their fights. But I also attached great importance to a main vision of the manga which is "an account of fights involving a goddess who took human form and watches with love over the world of men". I think this is something that basically differentiates Saint Seiya from other manga. I was also very careful to be able to show the difference in context between the old generation of Bronze Saints and the new one. Unlike Seiya's group, Kōga and his friends did not have the chance to evolve in the company of Athena, and that's why we brought up the character of Alia so that she could guide them. Kōga and his friends overcome the various obstacles that stand in their way, as does the Seiya group in their time, and become Saints of Athena capable of protecting what is dear to them, by saving the world and opening a path to the future. This is the idea that I hold dear and that I direct to this new generation of viewers.
 
Also, that is a thing i forgot to throw here, but "the secondary canon issue with databook" in our canon standard, is aswell said;

  • It should be noted that this is often evaluated on a case - by - case basis.
And besides, this contradicts nothing of what was said, at no time Hades says he created the space of the Elysium, Hyperdimension, and the Underworld, even in the works you are using to upgrade the Gold Saints, it is said that the underworld remains there even after the death of Hades, which leaves us in absolutely agreement that Hades only sustains the constructions of the post life, since the realm (space) is intact after his claim.
 
Getting back on the subject and ignoring the tiresome stawmaning and downplaying.

Some of the reasons for the upgrade I disagree with but have always considered the stronger classic gold saints at peak to be universal especially with miracles going by some feats you have presented.

Using ep G however 3A casually for the stronger saints.

Bronze saints at their peak as seen in Poseidon arc are all easily High A3

Ga golds are all much stronger but from the chaos world so you have to separate them, still they are comparable to the bronze/Legendary saints so High 3A/2C.
 
Tomorrows monday. I have to work all week, and i work long hours. so my comments are going to start slowing dow by alot
 
I haven't quite seen anything too bad going on, but I was informed that @Leonida85 was being mindly harsh on this thread. It really isn't necessary to accuse people of lying just for stating their own honest opinions. Or to accuse people of acting with malice when there isn't really hard evidence. And the comments like "People like you should be lost instead of found" are also pretty rude nor are they called for.

Please me more polite in the future. Thank you.
 
Lol who was the snitch? Jk

Anyway Malice or ill intent is not a easy thing to see when someone is a least smart enough to pretend to be nice and logical when they are basically needlessly stonewalling. All that being said everyone play nice.
 
  1. Aiolia has Zeus's weapon, his lightening. Which is the power to kill a god. Shaka is special in his own regard. Iapeto said taht Shaka has the protection of a God of another Dimension. There was also a scene where Aiolia once had the protection of Athena helping him. Sort of like her giving him power.
Aiolia having keraunos (Primordial Lightning), in no way influences the fact that he is able to have a power to rival a true god, it just justifies that he is capable of ending them and seriously injuring the gods, and shaka does not have the protection of a God from another dimension, that is your guess, iapeto just says that he has a different form of divine power than theirs, titans, nothing more. As I have already proved, no gold saints has the capacity to face a God in his full powers, and the titans even in Tartarus, were not in full power, either with their planets, their dunamis and even absorbing other titans, probably the only one at this level of true god, it was cronus, but even he was also not in full power.

As for the context of athena behind aiolia, aiolos also appears several times behind aiolia, however it is not giving something to him, besides the aiolia being motivated thinking about him.

  1. BFR, and pocker reality creation
  2. Sense Manipulation
  3. Law Manipulation
  4. Sealing the enemy movement should be paralysis inducement unless you want to lable it as sealing.
  5. its hax act as both offense, and defense at the same time.. Though, i don't remember why this point was brought up so lets just move past it as it feels like derailing.
"The primary canon is the source material first released (with few possible exceptions), with the other author works being secondary canon."

As you know, i don't want to move this (yet) to the topic of canonicality, but there are differences between the tenbu horin presented between the works, i really disagree in mixing all of them, in the classic, the only functions of tenbu horin are those that i quoted earlier, and you questioned that the tenbu horin has no AP only hax, but both the cosmos and durability is greater than the Galaxian Explosion, and it is useless against Shaka's tenbu horin, regardless of how much you say no, it is the cosmos that makes the AP, and the tenbu horin has much more, besides just sealing the senses.

  1. Miracles = a stat amp (Allows one to surpass their current opponent even Gods, this would be tier "Varies") probability manipulation, resistance to fate manipulation, and even a limited form of self-fate manipulation, but this has been represented equally thoughout all woks of saint seiya.
Again, I will cite the example of what is written on the vsbw page about canon, but you already know what is written, so let's ignore it. Miracles give different explanations between the works, you literally put everything together and think that as they are part of the same boat, the oars are the same for all passengers, but this is not how it works, Episode G really works with a predetermined destiny, and going against that destiny and realizing the unknown, is the miracle of Episode G (Cronus vs Aiolia), in assassin, the miracle comes from realizing the impossible in itself, even if it has to break the principles of the universe and the laws of physics, in omega, if it gives to the power of the connections between them, since the omega itself is the connection of all the cosmos or of the great cosmos.

  • As for the issue of ikki, alonik has already explained, so I don't have what to say more.
  1. This doens't contradict anything.. "Defeated them so easily" means the 3 would still have put up a valiant fight but still be defeated in the end.
This is already out of context, kanon only says that the barrier was the reason why they were defeated so easily, it does not imply that without it they would still be defeated.

  • As for the case of the miracles you mentioned, I didn't really understand your point, should this prove that there is just as much ease in creating miracles in the classic?
 
This ridiculous Lucasfilm-level "Canon Tier" thing that you just invented right now, and which has never been established anywhere. All of the Manga are in the same general multiverse and concepts and overall ideas from one to the other scale. It's only arguably with the anime adaptations that might warrant a separation. And that's it.

Saint Seiya the Original, Next Dimension, Lost Canvas, Episode G (All Three Installments), and the Light Novels are all things we can cross-scale and cross-reference.
 
I agree that it goes in the same multiverse, never said otherwise. I've even said that same comment 2x in this thread. About scales ideas, this was invented, since kurumada himself ignores this.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
This ridiculous Lucasfilm-level "Canon Tier" thing that you just invented right now, and which has never been established anywhere. All of the Manga are in the same general multiverse and concepts and overall ideas from one to the other scale. It's only arguably with the anime adaptations that might warrant a separation. And that's it.
Saint Seiya the Original, Next Dimension, Lost Canvas, Episode G (All Three Installments), and the Light Novels are all things we can cross-scale and cross-reference.
Click to expand...
I can agree to separting anime, and manga canons at the very least

Anime canon can be something like we do for Dragonball call it something like (Toei canon)
 
Alright with logical cross-scale and cross-reference from Ep G and golden Age, to me Tier 3-A possibly Low 2-C for certain gold saints.

Peak bronze saints pre GA low 2-C.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
All of the Manga are in the same general multiverse and concepts and overall ideas from one to the other scale.

Saint Seiya the Original, Next Dimension, Lost Canvas, Episode G (All Three Installments), and the Light Novels are all things we can cross-scale and cross-reference.
Click to expand...
It seems that even if I put in front of everyone that there is an abyss of differences between the works (Ep G and Classic), both in terms of power, as in the plot and its miracles, and yet no one seems to care, even if no one has refuted it yet.
 
I refuted it perfectly well. I don't see any contradictions with the cross canon scaling as been pointing out. Each work support each other. And I'm still not done refuting it, it's just I'm busy with irl stuff.
 
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