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This is a 10-round Swiss-style tournament!!! (Link to Tournament page) Round 2; Match 12: Helltaker vs Yu

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This is a 10-round Swiss-style tournament!!! (Link to Tournament page)
Round 2; Match 12: Helltaker vs Yu
🇨🇭 in Geneva of course 🇨🇭

1920px-Geneve_2005_001_Ork.ch.jpg

Match Rules:
  • Speed is equalized
  • All optional equipment is allowed that is up to 9-A
  • Takes place in the center of Gevena at Sunrise
  • 70 meters starting distance
  • No Prep nor Prior Knowledge
  • The city is abandoned for these matches so no outside help
  • BFR, Death Manip, and other passive One-Shot Hax have been mostly banned
  • For more info go to the main Tournament page
Characters
Attack Potency
Votes
The Helltaker (Helltaker) 0.023 Tons of TNTStomp Loss
Yu (The Boxer)0.013 Tons of TNTStomp Win
Inconclusive0
 
Last edited:
ok so starting off

Helltaker can dodge projectiles 50 times the speed of his being thrown b/c of Analytical prediction
 
While he can sure dodge it, but from the feat, it seems the projectiles come from off screen that Helltaker could very well have seen them coming from a long way.

Even then, Yu still has a bunch of layers for his analytical prediction, and can see Helltaker in slow-mo. A few hits from Yu should pretty much dura neg Helltaker.

That said, you should probably also contact Azontr on his message wall. I'm kinda busy right now and for the next few days that I can't really debate much.
 
While he can sure dodge it, but from the feat, it seems the projectiles come from off screen that Helltaker could very well have seen them coming from a long way.
It's stated to spawn immediately the chains by @LaserPrecision b/c they spawned and killed Helltaker 1,000 times before the battle even started

again is Slow Mo equal to how fast Helltaker can dodge or no
 
It's stated to spawn immediately the chains by @LaserPrecision b/c they spawned and killed Helltaker 1,000 times before the battle even started

again is Slow Mo equal to how fast Helltaker can dodge or no
That's not the reason I assume they immediately spawned. But because Judgement was shown to be able to spawn chains anywhere she wants (within her range). Even if you want to argue he can see them coming from far away (highly unlikely), he can predict chains spawning in directions he isn't looking and from up close (Such as the chains that come from the y axis as both spawn from within the sin machine to the conveyor belt Helltaker stands on.

But yeah, the max extent of it is dodging/predicting borderline Danmaku 50x faster than himself coming from every direction in rapid succession without seeing where they're coming from. That's about all I can contribute to this match given I know nothing of the opponent and mostly came to clarify on the prediction of Helltaker.
 
Well, that Danmaku(?) feat sounds more impressive....
It's not Danmaku by vsbw standards which is like... what? Some arbitrary amount of projectiles in a second or smth? I can't remember. But she does just fire chains galore from the x and y axis. There's a gif on her profile in the powers/abilities section demonstrating the danmaku. I just call it danmaku since it's pretty much danmaku.
 
It's not Danmaku by vsbw standards which is like... what? Some arbitrary amount of projectiles in a second or smth? I can't remember. But she does just fire chains galore from the x and y axis. There's a gif on her profile in the powers/abilities section demonstrating the danmaku. I just call it danmaku since it's pretty much danmaku.
yeah thats why I put the "?" there
 
Yu skill stomps tf is this-

Helltaker can predict attacks that are faster than himself yes, but Yu's analytical prediction is literally infinitely more versatile to the point its not even funny.

People unfathomably less talented/skilled than Yu already have broken analytical prediction which can predict every movement made within an entire boxing match based on shit like muscle movements and one's heartbeat. Helltaker's analytical prediction doesn't have shit on Yu's in terms of pure combat versatility, he's getting read like a book and then some.
 
Yu skill stomps tf is this-

Helltaker can predict attacks that are faster than himself yes, but Yu's analytical prediction is literally infinitely more versatile to the point its not even funny.

People unfathomably less talented/skilled than Yu already have broken analytical prediction which can predict every movement made within an entire boxing match based on shit like muscle movements and one's heartbeat. Helltaker's analytical prediction doesn't have shit on Yu's in terms of pure combat versatility, he's getting read like a book and then some.
Yeesh, if that's the case along with the dura neg punches, then I can see Yu winning this, so this may be a vote from me
 
Yu stomps.

Helltaker literally cannot hit Yu. His several layers of analytical prediction (which he also resists in several layers) tacked along with his enhanced perception that already allows him to see people much faster than him in slow motion pretty much negates any of Helltaker's offensive options.
 
Yu skill stomps tf is this-

Helltaker can predict attacks that are faster than himself yes, but Yu's analytical prediction is literally infinitely more versatile to the point its not even funny.

People unfathomably less talented/skilled than Yu already have broken analytical prediction which can predict every movement made within an entire boxing match based on shit like muscle movements and one's heartbeat. Helltaker's analytical prediction doesn't have shit on Yu's in terms of pure combat versatility, he's getting read like a book and then some.
I see Yu winning, but saying it's better is disingenuous given how different they function. One can predict countless projectiles over 50x faster than themselves without even seeing or hearing where they'll come from. The other lets them predict an entire match before the match even begins.
 
I see Yu winning, but saying it's better is disingenuous given how different they function. One can predict countless projectiles over 50x faster than themselves without even seeing or hearing where they'll come from. The other lets them predict an entire match before the match even begins.
It... kinda is though. In a pure combat setting Yu's analytical prediction is indeed better, being able to perfectly analyze your opponent's moves and be able to counter them with absolute effectiveness objectively has more close combat utility than what Helltaker has.
 
It... kinda is though. In a pure combat setting Yu's analytical prediction is indeed better, being able to perfectly analyze your opponent's moves and be able to counter them with absolute effectiveness objectively has more close combat utility than what Helltaker has.
Mmm, I guess in combat that's fair. He hasn't shown to use it offensively. When you said better I assumed you meant in every aspect. Defensively Helltaker's definitely seems better since it lets you basically dodge any attack thrown at you.

For the sake of devils advocate tho, Helltaker's win-con would likely be exhausting Yu until they can take him down.
 
Mmm, I guess in combat that's fair. He hasn't shown to use it offensively. When you said better I assumed you meant in every aspect. Defensively Helltaker's definitely seems better since it lets you basically dodge any attack thrown at you.

For the sake of devils advocate tho, Helltaker's win-con would likely be exhausting Yu until they can take him down.
I was referring more so to combat effectiveness making my statement, yes.

Does Helltaker have any counter to Yu hitting him once in the head with a dura neg punch and cracking his brain like an egg? Yu landing a singular dura neg punch on the chest of a guy whose durability basically stone-walled Yu's AP stopped his heart and he was only saved because he was given immediate medical attention.
 
I was referring more so to combat effectiveness making my statement, yes.

Does Helltaker have any counter to Yu hitting him once in the head with a dura neg punch and cracking his brain like an egg? Yu landing a singular dura neg punch on the chest of a guy whose durability basically stone-walled Yu's AP stopped his heart and he was only saved because he was given immediate medical attention.
Mmm, ignoring his analytical prediction (Which I think should still be precog, but vsbw's a stickler) which would make him nigh impossible to tag (Even if Yu could view Helltaker in slow-mo, unless it makes him look over 50x slower, I don't think it'll help him tag him. Especially since reaction speed is only for quick actions like dodging), no. Hell, stopping his heart killed him in the ending where you upset Cerberus. So it'd def work
 
Then yeah, Yu stomps. Even disregarding the slow motion stuff not working Yu isn't getting hit and can end the fight with a single hit (Yes, he is willing to kill).
 
Then yeah, Yu stomps. Even disregarding the slow motion stuff not working Yu isn't getting hit and can end the fight with a single hit (Yes, he is willing to kill).
I don't wanna argue for Helltaker winning Especially against my (fem)boy azontr, I do wanna at least argue it's not a stomp and can be listed on their profiles. Yu only needs one hit, but would have difficulty landing that hit. Helltaker would need to exhaust Yu to get his win-con (Which should be easy after a stamina CRT I have planned)
 
I don't wanna argue for Helltaker winning Especially against my (fem)boy azontr, I do wanna at least argue it's not a stomp and can be listed on their profiles. Yu only needs one hit, but would have difficulty landing that hit. Helltaker would need to exhaust Yu to get his win-con (Which should be easy after a stamina CRT I have planned)
Can you explain to me in what way you think Yu would have a difficult time hitting the Helltaker?
 
Can you explain to me in what way you think Yu would have a difficult time hitting the Helltaker?
I mean, he has the esoteric sense to know when an attack is coming despite there being zero signs of it coming and can do so to Danmaku over 50x faster than himself. Let along against far fewer attacks that are comparable in speed to himself. That's basically it (Again, imo it should be precog, not AP. I may try to shoot for precog again in the next CRT I got planned. Hopefully it goes through this time around)
 
I mean, he has the esoteric sense to know when an attack is coming despite there being zero signs of it coming and can do so to Danmaku over 50x faster than himself. Let along against far fewer attacks that are comparable in speed to himself. That's basically it (Again, imo it should be precog, not AP. I may try to shoot for precog again in the next CRT I got planned. Hopefully it goes through this time around)
I know that, but I ask how this stops Yu from hitting him?

Helltaker's defensive analytical prediction is good but he cannot use it offensively, nor does he have experience against characters who have analytical prediction with far superior combat utility as well as far higher general combat skill (Yu is like the best Boxer in history, Helltaker has no close combat experience).

Sure, he can predict fast attack that come from erratic angles, but what if he's also being predicted? What if his opponent's already 10 steps ahead of him, like Yu will most certainly be? Every point he tries to dodge will be, without fail, intercepted in one way or another. And I severely doubt Helltaker's analytical prediction will overcome that without extra feats.
 
I know that, but I ask how this stops Yu from hitting him?
I elaborated how already. It allows Helltaker to avoid Yu's attacks. Whether that be by weaving through his punches or running away/around.
Helltaker's defensive analytical prediction is good but he cannot use it offensively, nor does he have experience against characters who have analytical prediction with far superior combat utility as well as far higher general combat skill (Yu is like the best Boxer in history, Helltaker has no close combat experience).
Agreed.
Sure, he can predict fast attack that come from erratic angles, but what if he's also being predicted? What if his opponent's already 10 steps ahead of him, like Yu will most certainly be? Every point he tries to dodge will be, without fail, intercepted in one way or another. And I severely doubt Helltaker's analytical prediction will overcome that without extra feats.
This is why AP is kinda weird. On one hand predicting more moves ahead seems better, but if you can only see one move ahead, you'll be able to predict the opponents movement made in prediction for something they saw several steps ahead. I should note that I'm not saying he can't be tagged. I think he does get tagged. I just don't think it will be easy for Yu.
 
I elaborated how already. It allows Helltaker to avoid Yu's attacks. Whether that be by weaving through his punches or running away/around.
Your reasoning is faulty to begin with, so, no, I disagree with this elaboration, which I will explain below.
This is why AP is kinda weird. On one hand predicting more moves ahead seems better, but if you can only see one move ahead, you'll be able to predict the opponents movement made in prediction for something they saw several steps ahead. I should note that I'm not saying he can't be tagged. I think he does get tagged. I just don't think it will be easy for Yu.
No, you wouldn't be able to do that at all, because your movement in response to the prediction would just be predicted in turn and you're back to square one with no way to dodge. That's literally how analytical prediction in the Boxer works.

Dismissing it as "weird" is not inherently a debunk to my point that Helltaker's analytical prediction objectively falls short in comparison to Yu's. It's not hard. Someone who can predict the opponent's moves with pin-point accuracy dozens of steps ahead will always be ahead of Someone who can only predict one step ahead. Trying to zig-zag your way around that simple fact isn't a debunk, it's just disingenuous and plain wrong.

So, I will have to disagree once again. This is going to be extremely easy for Yu.
 
Isnt Yu like, resistant to AnaPre with feats far more insane than Helltaker's on top of that being layered?
 
No, you wouldn't be able to do that at all, because your movement in response to the prediction would just be predicted in turn and you're back to square one with no way to dodge. That's literally how analytical prediction in the Boxer works.
I understand that when your AP is based on movements of the body. But when you've got some weird esoteric one that lets you predict moves before there's any sign of it I disagree. If you predicted 3 of my punches in advance and thus threw a strike, my react would then change as I then predicted you throwing that punch you had just thrown.
Dismissing it as "weird" is not inherently a debunk to my point that Helltaker's analytical prediction objectively falls short in comparison to Yu's. It's not hard. Someone who can predict the opponent's moves with pin-point accuracy dozens of steps ahead will always be ahead of Someone who can only predict one step ahead. Trying to zig-zag your way around that simple fact isn't a debunk, it's just disingenuous and plain wrong.
I haven't zigzagged around it though. I acknowledged for combat purposes it's superior. My problem was how he's gonna tag someone who can predict Danmaku 50x faster than himself just because he can predict several moves ahead. It doesn't help when they start 70 meters away and Helltaker can then just choose to run until Yu tires.
So, I will have to disagree once again. This is going to be extremely easy for Yu.
I agree. Thus I why I stated I believe Yu won. I just think it's not stompish enough to not be added to profiles.
 
Isnt Yu like, resistant to AnaPre with feats far more insane than Helltaker's on top of that being layered?
But his functions differently. I dunno if we just assume having a resistance to a specific type of AP means they can resist all forms of AP. If we do, then Helltaker's an easy hit. If we don't, then I think he's difficult to tag.
 
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