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The Ultra Series Discussion Thread: Unleash! The Power of Imagination!

Just remembered I could turn on auto-generated Japanese subtitles to find the exact words that Marlulu said to make sure Tartarus' energy is off the chart. So it seems like in episode 14 Marlulu said Tartarus' energy is 計り知れない (Hakarishirenai) which after a quick search means words like immeasurable, incalculable, incalculable, inestimable, incomputable, boundless, unbounded, limitless, unknowable, and etc. So yeah not the exact words off the charts but it still means things like his energy is off the charts. So this still shows that unlike Megalothor, Tartarus' energy was stated to be immeasurable by Marlulu even while possibly being in a weakened state since this was right after he finished fighting Zero and beam struggling against King.
 
Lol for real like Carmeara was boasting about how if they were at full power somebody like Tartarus would be nothing to her. But now we learned that Tartarus even while being weakened is apparently more powerful than Carmeara at her absolute strongest with a portion of the Eternity Core lol.

But yeah we’ve got some support scaling for Tartarus so that’s nice.
 
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I rewatched Ultraman Saga and noticed that his Color Timer was blinking the whole time, it seems that Saga was already weakened at the time.


Saga is stated on Tsu’s official Ultraman twitter as miraculous and one of the strongest entities.

His existence was a miracle since it started with the petrified Ultimate Bracelet transformed into the Saga Bracelet. Saga Bracelet was also his power source. The Ultimate Bracelet contains the Ultimate Aegis, a power bestowed to Zero by Noa. I believe that it was Noa’s power that gave this miracle a chance to happen. Legend was the result of two cosmic forces combined. A Noa-originated power should be able to substitute a cosmic force.
 
Isn’t that giant crystal in his chest his color timer? We only really see a small light inside that flashing and I don’t think that’s his color timer. Not to mention if he was weakened the SCW and all the other databooks and magazines would’ve mentioned Saga being weakened in the fight but none of them ever said he was weakened. All that they ever said was that Saga is comparable to Hyper Zetton (Saga Version). We should honestly just wait for Saga’s next appearance before deciding if he truly is a god tier or not. Currently he is only possibly a god tier based on new info. But if he does appear later on and is shown to be much stronger than everybody else than we can truly consider him a god tier. Though that would mean we might also have to split the god tiers into different eras as well since Saga is supposed to be comparable to Legend.
 
The Ultraman wiki also has a bunch of incorrect info

They said Kyrieloid II’s Power Type Analogue doubles his power to put him on par with Power Type Tiga even though there was never a given multiplier for Power Type Analogue. Not to mention Kyrieloid was not on par with Tiga he was clearly superior in every way. Also they said it was the lights that revived Tiga but it’s stated in the databooks that it’s the feelings of the people that revived Tiga and allowed him to enter a pseudo-Glitter state to defeat Kyrieloid.

They said there’s no evidence for Golza II being the resurrected and powered up form of Fire Golza from Ultraman Tiga despite the ODF and another databook explicitly stating this was the same Golza revived by Sphere.

They said Belial Atrocious’ Atros Burst is only 10x Wrecking Burst even though the SCW said tens of times.

They didn’t even realize the Super Ability Monsters were a category of monsters in Ultraman Taro until I showed them the databook scan listing them as a species of monsters superior to Chojus.

Some guy on Reddit even pointed out that they messed up some info regarding Andro Melos.

And etc.
 
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Just another case of evil never sleep, but good will not rest until they are completely obliterated.

We can even make some kinda skill thing from the timelines too. Like let's see, Tartarus casually kept up with the New Gen Ultras, even taking on the fusions, and was generally on top of the game. Then following this timeline, he fought the Ultra Force at once, and had even less trouble than Titan, who easily kept up with the team. Then right after, he had to fight both Seven and Zero, the latter of whom managed to completely bypass his precognition and hand his first loss. Later he fights against Justice and Xenon who, while not having their own noteworthy feats, should be about equal to each other with Cosmos scaling to Cosmos' level of skill who took on about a dozen grunt without effort. Then on Blizzard, he could better keep up with Ultimate Shining, even though only a few hours ago he was completely at a loss on how to make a comeback.

Well I guess that still overlaps with stamina. I'm still trying to figure out how exactly to put into words the skills that these guys have, since that's my part and all.
 
The order that Tartarus fought was actually

Ginga, Victory, Rosso, Blu -> Ginga Victory, Ruebe, Beta Spark Armor X, Orb Trinity -> Small break -> Ultra Force (Scott, Chuck, Beth) -> Zero (Base, New Form, Ultimate Shining) -> Leo, Astra -> Ultimate Shining Zero -> Quick heal -> Crusher Mode Justice, Xenon w/ Galaxy Sword -> Seven, Zero (Base, Ultimate Shining) -> Ultimate Shining Zero -> King

I'd say skill wise Leo and Astra might've gotten the largest buff. They were unable to really hurt even a rather casual Tartarus but they were able to briefly overwhelm him with sheer skill.
 
Tartarus really had little to no breaks fighting all those Ultra

Space martial artist’s are aa beast, and btw why is it that the double flasher 400x L2C
 
@IxaSaga2
Mind posting the exact post where you explained Saber's skills? I was already using that as reference but I can't seem to pick up on which details I should keep when listing out skill.

Also, just in general, should Zero's training session be counted as RPL/Acc Dev (Combat) or AD (Training)? Because as far as I can see, every training Zero has been involved in is almost always serious so I don't see how he can't apply that to real battles.
 
Didn’t IxaSaga2 only say he thinks that’s the case on the previous page. So it’s probably his own opinion on the matter and not actual canon info from the looks of it. Though I could be wrong.

Probably Accelerated Development. Also I think there was a thread talking about deleting Reactive Power Level.
 
I know, just trying to get a feel on how to properly explain skill feats. Because I've been trying and a lot of it just seem to come outta my ass and has a bunch of straw grasping from where I'm looking at.

Yeah, 's why I included both RPL and Combat Acc. Development together.
 
Yeah I understand writing description for things like skills are a pain in the ass.

Actually on second thought isn’t this more so awakened power? Like Seven, Leo, and Joneus kept going on about how Zero needs to awaken his wild nature or something and than once he broke out of the Tector Gear we see him awaken a new form which also seemed to have given him a power boost.

Edit: Scratch that I forgot that‘s not what Awakened Power is. So yeah just go for a mix of Accelerated Devlopment and Reactive Power Level if the latter ability doesn’t get deleted I guess.
 
Yep, I mean, Zero was in the middle of serious combat and was able to evolve. He should get this in Heisei key too from his training with Leo, and Darklops Zero gaiden.
 
Belial Atrocious without King’s energy is weaker than Symbol of Geed which is in turn outright stated to be inferior to Ultimate Final Geed before the Reiwa Era.

Being an Ultimate form doesn’t mean you are Low 2-C if you don’t have feats at that lvl.
 
Yup. Full Power Base Belial is far superior to Weakened Belial Atrocious. It’s honestly quite obvious. Belial at full power is capable of one shotting Full Power Ultimate Zero. Father of Ultra who is stated to stand alongside Full Power Base Zero as the strongest warrior of the Land of Light restrained Belial Atrocious for 20 hours.
 
Mr.Cutlery said:
@IxaSaga2
Mind posting the exact post where you explained Saber's skills? I was already using that as reference but I can't seem to pick up on which details I should keep when listing out skill.

Also, just in general, should Zero's training session be counted as RPL/Acc Dev (Combat) or AD (Training)? Because as far as I can see, every training Zero has been involved in is almost always serious so I don't see how he can't apply that to real battles.
Click to expand...
It was the Saber vs Ruby fight. I'm gathering Saber's feats and putting them into their profiles since I think the Saber riders have a lot of feats to talk about.

IxaSaga2 said:
Megid: Megid are monsters that are immortal and can be revived by opening their books. The ones in this arc are the Golem Megid, three Medusa Sisters, a Goblin Gang, Hanzaki, a Piranha army, an Ant Army, Queen Ant Megid, and 5 Ugly Duckling Megid. It is unknown whether all of them learn from their deaths but we do know that there are some who do. I'll go over them later.

There are also the 4 General Megid that are far stronger/skilled than the previous; Storious, Legeiel, Zooous, and Desast. Storious, Legeiel, and Zooous were originally humans. After discovering the Wonder World and the Almighty Book (A book containing the records of everything in history from beginning to end), they each ripped out one the pages and that transformed them into Megid. Storious became the Megid of stories, Legeiel became the Megid of Divine Beasts, and Zooous became the Megid of animals. The Megid's jobs are to take a portion of a place, convert it into books, and make new Megid out of those books. The Kamen Riders of each generation not only have to fight against hordes and hordes of normal Megid whom they already have trouble against, they all have faced the 4 Megid that have massacred their teachers, parent figures, and predecessors. I wouldn’t be surprised if most of the riders are killed in battle against them.

Sword of Logos: A 2 thousand year old organization dedicated to fighting the Megid. They seek out the best of the best swordsmen to fight the Megid. Even with the best of the best swordsmen, The 4 General Megids are shown to kill them with varying difficulty. You’d have to be Daichi (The guy that was the most skilled in his generation. Current Kamen Rider Calibur) levels of skill in order to face the 4 generals and even then, you would most likely die against them as shown when Storious stomped an upgraded Calibur.

You’d have to be a handful (tens) of the best swordsmen in the world to become a part of the org and you’d have to be in the top 4 - 10 of that to wield a Seiken (Holy Sword) and become a Kamen Rider. There’s these Kamen Riders that are in each generation: Saber, Blades, Espada, Kenzan, Buster, Slash, Calibur, Sabela, and Durendal.

We don’t know exactly what they did or their feat but we know one thing; each generation has a Kamen Rider Calibur. From this we know that each generation’s Kamen Riders have fought and sparred with a person that goes through countless timelines in which they face world-ending scenarios each time (Doesn’t actually go through but the precognition is so strong that the scenarios feel very real and they permanently change the personalities and beliefs of each user). Zooous is a character that has RPL that once he sees a move, that move will never work on him again. Also each time he loses, he gets permanently stronger and more skilled. Since we know the level of precog each Calibur has, we also know that it is VERY likely Zooous has RPLed from many of them. Legeiel and Storious would scale of course.

So the average Kamen Rider predecessors scale to all of that. The current generation gets far more skilled than their predecessors.

But how do we know how skilled the previous Kamen Riders were without knowing their feats? That’s why we have the Four Sages. The Four Sages are the council of the org and are the originators of every sword technique to have existed in Sword of Logos. They are nicknamed, “The Ultimate Swordsmen” and have existed for a long time, presumably as long as the current Master of Logos (Leader of SoL of course). They recently died due to an assassination but when they revived in the final episodes of Saber, they shitstomped all of the Saber riders (EoS arc, when the Saber riders scales to Blades THS, a form that has 20,000 years of culminated skill and techniques, and Xross Saber, a form that theoretically have 6,235,300 combinations of attacks, can stomp Solomon, and restore the world with one sword swing) without effort. And at this point, the Saber riders scale above Master of Logos. Because they have been alive for so long, it is VERY likely that they have trained the swordsmen of each generation. Although not that the swordsmen have their skills by being taught by them, being able to train and spar with them is still very valuable.

Saber: Without prior training, Saber was able to wield Rekka, a Seiken. In addition to what I said earlier, A Seiken requires the user to be a combat expert in order to wield, let alone master. Episode 1 and Saber’s first fight. Golem Megid is a Megid that can turn into a large size. Rekka literally appeared in front of Saber out of thin air and the episode told him, good luck against it. Saber automatically knew what to do on the spot and he defeated Golem Megid with ease. By ease, I mean Saber was styling on this guy. Dodging every move, and dancing around him. Next ep, Saber immediately figures out the link between the Grasshopper and Ant Megids, by referencing a book about Grasshoppers and Ants. Saber and Blades wipe through hundreds of Ant Megids easily. This is also the first time Saber used his bike and he used it perfectly, even climbing up a beanstalk as it grew. Speaking of beanstalk, Saber got the beanstalk book and then used it perfectly without prior knowledge. He turns into Dragon Jackun, a volume 2 form with a completely different fighting style than base form. He even thought of better ideas than Blades to use the book more effectively to kill the Grasshopper Megid. Next episode, Saber fights the Hanzaki Megid. Hanzaki Megid is far stronger than the previous Megids due to the ability to RPL every time he loses. Here Saber assumes another Volume 2 form which is Dragon Peter. By RPLing, the Megid got stronger again and Saber and Blades struggled to fight him again. Saber then masters the Volume 3 forms which even Blades was not ready for. Reminder that Saber is days into his swordsmanship and Blades is decades into it and is a very gifted individual. Saber then stomps the Megid that stomped him previously. Then the Piranha Megid appears and there’s thousands of them (some are big and some are small). Saber in this part masters Crimson Dragon which is a matching Volume 3 form, a form that strains the body heavily and takes a long time to master. This took Blades hours of Accelerated Development training in liberation, an area of training that speeds up training albeit very difficult. Saber masters this the first time he uses it. There are other episodes where Saber fights and stomps the rest of the Megids.

TLDR so far: The baseline for being a part of Sword of Logos is to be a select few tens of the best swordsmen in Sword of Logos. The baseline to be a Kamen Rider in Saber is to be the top swordsmen of the few tens of people that get into Sword of Logos. Copying and using entirely different fighting style is a standard things for them to do and they have shown to master them in seconds. Each generation scales to the Calibur of their generation, a Kamen Rider that is able to precog countless timelines. Any of the Megid generals can stomp the Saber riders in skill. Saber figures out very creative ways to beat the monsters due to his knowledge on books. It took Saber a few minutes to master something that takes a lifetime of a gifted person to learn, it took Saber a few seconds to master a dangerous form (Volume 3) that takes a gifted person to learn in decades, and it took the same amount of time to learn an even more dangerous form (Matching Volume 3) that took a gifted person to train in hours of accelerated development training. This is even more impressive knowing that The Volume 2 forms each have different fighting styles (Dragon Jackun, Dragon Peter, Dragon Hedgehog, Dragon Arthur, Dragon Bremen, Dragon Alangina, Dragon Eagle, and Saiyuu Dragon all have different abilities and ways of fighting. Saber easily mastered them in succession). The Volume 3 Forms (Dragon Peter Hedgehog, Crimson Dragon, and Dragon Eagle Arthur) are even harder to learn because they mix 3 different fighting styles into one. All of this was learned within seconds. Not only that, they would instantly know how to utilize the abilities even if they have never been shown before. Blades and Espada catch up to his skill quickly. Buster, Slash, Kenzan, and Calibur are well above that already.

Saber then goes to Avalon and gains trials to get King of Arthur and Dragonic Knight (The trials aren’t told to the viewers but I have a hunch). Apparently this trial is to test whether or not Saber is worthy of King of Arthur and Dragonic Knight. Saber solves the riddle to King of Arthur in a few minutes. The riddle was basically an entirely white room and a guy saying the same thing over and over again and Saber had to do something (I forgot what) for King of Arthur to appear. Saber kills another one of the trials in literally one-two moves. The Saber riders are struggling with Calibur who has the help of two Medusa Megids. Saber comes back from Avalon, plans out a whole strategy plan in less than one day and the fight goes perfectly planned and the Saber riders defeat Calibur and the Medusas. This awakens the true power of King of Arthur and completes yet another trial, making 3 trials completed in less than one day. With the new found power, Saber was able to stomp Calibur. Calibur then gets a new form called Jaou Dragon which he was able to stomp 4 Saber riders at once. In the final showdown between Calibur and the 3 generals, the Saber Riders were struggling heavily. After Blades gets King Lion Daisenki, Blades was able to stomp the 3 generals by himself. Saber gets Dragonic Knight and automatically learns how to use it and stomp Jaou Dragon. Dragonic Knight and King Lion Daisenki are very similar and appear back to back so Saber in Dragonic Knight can definitely defeat the 4 generals by himself at this point. Now, Saber would be far more skilled than himself from a few episodes ago.

Saber and his group have fought and defeated the 4 generals in this arc.

Zooous: A megid that gets stronger and more skill with every loss he takes. I said that a move that he sees once before will never work on him again. He has RPLed from many Kamen Riders that are more skilled than the current Riders (Zooous said Blades’ master was far more skilled than him).
Storious: A manipulator who orchestrated events from 2 millennia ago to now. Storious is a Megid that effortlessly stomps the Saber riders before King Lion Daisenki and Dragonic Knight. Storious has a multitude of haxes that the Saber raiders have to deal with. He doesn’t really do much in this arc but he becomes the big bad that scales far above the Four Sages.

Movie: Saber and crew have to fight Falchion, a swordsman who is equal to Saikou who is a 2 thousand year old swordsman who became a legendary Swordsman in folklore. They were part of some of the original swordsmen in SoL (another example to prove that the previous swordsmen were no joke). Falchion carries around a Tier 2 book so Saber and crew not only have to fight him, they have to fight his army while a book is destroying two universes. Falchion also has low-godly regen so Saber was 1 v 1 fighting this guy and killed him multiple times. By this time, it was still early into the arc so he wasn’t as skilled as the end of the arc. Falchion, despite dying multiple times, was stomping Saber (Regen was kinda a boast move for him to prove a point that Saber couldn’t kill him. When Saber gained Emotional Dragon, he is capable of using it to full effects in its first use and Saber then stomped Falchion now that their AP is equalized. Saber also found a way to bypass Falchion’s regen by sealing him in a book. Note that Saber has never used any technique from Emotional Dragon before and he knew about the sealing and how to use it.

Since speed amps are prevalent here, I will talk about some of the speed amp characters and how the riders deal with them.

Espada, Kenzan, and Desast: Espada and Kenzan use speed amps very frequently. They are among the fastest in the organization. Back to the point of the Four Sages, the speed amps is a thing that they came up with. Between the sages training the Kamen Riders and the Kamen Riders training with each other, they should be more than capable of handling it. Even the slowest out of all the characters (Buster) is able to handle Desast’s speed amp with ease and Buster even trained Espada.

Kenzan vs Desast had Kenzan speeding up and circling around Desast (who has precog) and outspeeding him at every turn. Even so, Desast was able to go toe to toe with Kenzan for a brief moment. Kenzan is currently below Espada in terms of skill. When Espada went into his speed amp against Calibur, he was countered very easily. Calibur was ready for all his moves and beat Espada multiple times and by this point, Espada is even more powerful than Saber and Blades. Calibur is also a character who 1 v 3 stomped Saber, Blades, and Espada. Since the Keys are treated as the end of each arc, Saber now scales far beyond Calibur. We see this later on when Saber effortlessly stomps Kenzan.
Click to expand...
Peter1129 said:
Didn’t IxaSaga2 only say he thinks that’s the case on the previous page. So it’s probably his own opinion on the matter and not actual canon info from the looks of it. Though I could be wrong.

Probably Accelerated Development. Also I think there was a thread talking about deleting Reactive Power Level.
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Which thing did I talk about again?
 
Peter1129 said:
This thing here regarding their skills and stuff
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Oh basically flying and beams. I don't recall when but there is a movie where it shows Ultramen having trouble flying and sometimes having trouble doing beam techniques. The Emerium Slugger thing was Ultra Fight Orb where he trained inside Zero's pocket dimension.
 
The two major instances of those that I remember would be Zearth, who had trouble with his beam. And R/B, who initially had trouble with their flight. Which, looking back, seemed to be an extension to their natural acrobacy.

Obviously they can't be used as major evidence, given that only one is from a mainline work and recent enough to be considered as part of the bigger info pool. Though I think the scene from MMB the movie can be used as support for the first point, as the coliseum showed the Garrison members do in fact practice their beams.

Regardless, thanks for bringing over the Saber skill explanation, Ixa. Now, if we can just get info on whether the Garrison really only has 1 million members out of the total 18 billion residents...
 
Pretty sure the 1 million members out of 18 billion resident is true. Like I even recall reading it in a databook. Though it's been a while since I've last seen that. I think it was the same one that said how big and far away the Land of Light is from Earth as well as what the red, blue, and silver races of the Ultras are.
 
Oh cool. So the Garrison has only roughly 0.00005% of the population, the entirety of which are already naturally superhuman. That's a good start.
 
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Well this would mean that Zagi was in fact equal to Noa back in the day at his peak. So this one statement about Zagi from Ultraman Ginga being equal to Noa might be legit. So Noa would be 125x baseline (High) 3-A back in the Heisei Era scaling from Zagi. But that’s only for the Heisei Era. After that Noa along with all the legendary Ultras also get progressively stronger to the point where nobody can be compared to them anymore.
 
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Yeah. This would basically mean Zagi was in fact one of the god tiers alongside the legendary Ultras (King, Noa, Legend) in the Heisei Era. But by the time the New Generation Era rolled over he became a fodder. So god tiers of the Heisei Era are essentially fodders of the New Generation Era. Which I guess makes sense with how the power creep is in the series.
 
But still how do we split them and which of the legendary Ultras do we split if we don’t split all of them? Like from the looks of it it’s obvious that Noa and Saga will need a split. But do we also split King and Legend into different eras? Or do we just leave them with one key? And if we split Noa and Saga do we split them based on era or just Pre/Post Reiwa Era?
 
King looks relatively unbothered, since battle of dream didn't se to be the one that featured him. So I guess he should be left as is. Ah, Legend, too.

For the others, I think Pre/Post Reiwa should work.
 
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