• This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact AKM sama if you encounter any problems.

    For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here.
  • It is now possible for our members to pay for Supporter memberships that are free from advertisements.

    It is also very appreciated if regular visitors help with financing our community by making donations.

    Please click here to learn more.

THAT SCP Revision (Yes, it's High 1-A)

Sir_Ovens

Resident Kitchen Appliance
VS Battles
Administrator
13,278
4,928
The SCP Revision Team™ Presents

The High 1-A Revision!


But first!

Undercards
  • Passive Plot Manipulation
  • SCP-3000's EC key
  • SCP-953's EC key

Passive Plot Manipulation
In the tale BLANK, Placeholder explains this:

"In Pataphysics, there are three types of characters. There are generics, the standard lot of people, who aren't exactly interesting enough to show up in most narrative structures. Then, there are protagonists and archetypicals. Protagonists have anomalously-high narrative potential, which means that they often end up being, well, protagonists. Heroes of their own stories, free to act upon the narrative structures around them. Members of royalty, heroes from folklore — it's a form of low-level reality-bending."

Place gestures towards himself and his lunchmate. "You and I, on the other hand, are archetypicals. We have anomalously-low narrative potential, and so the narrative structures of the universe act upon us, instead, shaping our lives in ways that end up being good for other nearby stories. This means we have a tendency to be side-characters and fall into common archetypes. I'm a mad-scientist archetype, for example. I kind-of wear it on my sleeve."

What this means essentially, is that protagonist-type characters like Bright and Clef have low-level plot manipulation courtesy of Narrative entities like Swann. This is outright stated in the follow-up tale, CAST:

"Yes. You all remember the narrative examinations last month?" He's met with nods round the table. "We were testing for 'protagonism', a measure of one's manipulation of surrounding narrative structures. As you hopefully read in your invitation emails, our universe is influenced by 'author-entities', beings from a higher narrative dimension. When an author-entity has an idea for a story, they can inject that story into our 'universal narrative', and it'll influence what happens in our reality."

"Most people aren't interesting enough to show up in these 'stories'. However, people with above-average protagonism are able to react independently to these stories and make their own decisions. They shape the story-structures to fit their own narrative, and so we call them 'protagonists' — literally the main characters in their own stories. As I explained to Blank a while ago, it's a form of low-level reality-bending."

"Harry's passion in life is reading history books," Wettle interjects. "You're telling me some eldritch entity finds that interesting enough to write about?"

Blank cracks his knuckles idly. "Beats a career in repeating other peoples' experiments."

"For Christ's sake—" Place starts, before collecting himself. "I'm telling you the exact opposite, Will. You've all been selected because you have lower-than-average protagonism. You're not just generic characters, but you're more susceptible to narrative influences. When a protagonist or author-entity initiates a story, we fall into place as needed, fulfilling common archetypes."

Blank leans forward, gesturing to the group. "We're side-characters. Archetypicals."

"Yes. Thanks, Harry." Place gets up from his chair, pacing around the podium to his laptop. "Now, most mid- to high-level Foundation personnel are protagonists. Archetypicals are exceedingly rare in our organization as we're focused on people who can combat anomalies and their associated stories, rather than be shaped by them.

"However, there are some anomalies that do not 'want' to be written about; they compel protagonists away, pushing them into other narrative structures. As such, our low narrative content makes us useful for dealing with such anomalies, as we're resistant to becoming more 'protagonistic'."

"Wait, wait, wait, just, hold up." Forkley raises his hands expressively. "Just wanna make sure I really understand this."

"Of course." Place boots up the digital projector, connecting it to his laptop as he listens.

"Protagonists can shape the world around them, on some level, so that they can, what, go on adventures?"

"Not necessarily. The 'shape' of our universal narrative is all about change — you can see this in simple abstractions of stories, like the Hero's Journey. It's actually a function of entropy; a hero has some ordered ideal, and that ideal is challenged over the course of a story, so their beliefs become more complicated and disordered. And, if an author-entity writes a story that requires a 'hero' archetype, an archetypical can fulfill that role. Protagonists are essentially able to make stories revolve around them and their change."

Now what this means is that there will be two different additions. The complex one would be Protagonists. Those that can be described as such would get Plot-Manipulation and Reality Warping on account of being able to shape the Narrative around them. In addition, based on the Archetypicals series, we know that the Narrative always favors a satisfying conclusion. An example would be a rubik cube always being solved when scrambled regardless of any logical steps required to achieve that outcome. As such, a Protagonist will always win, or at the very least, be victorious in the end; be it total or pyrrhic. Now the challenge comes from deciding who gets this upgrade. Obviously, author avatars like Bright and Clef should get it based on the quote above, but we also have to consider what constitutes a "Protagonist" in this scenario. If we are being all-encompassing, literally every profile would have this unless outright stated to not be a protagonist like Fred.

The simple addition would be that of Archetypicals. This will be simple since there is a black and white statement of who are Archetypicals. Placeholder and his team are Archetypicals, and that is all. Archetypicals would get Resistance to Plot Manipulation and Reality Warping, as they are not affected by the plot of a Narrative and have "free-will" so to speak.

More context on the nature of Protagonists, Archetypicals, and how they work can be read up on the Archetypicals series as part of the On Guard 43 canon.

SCP-3000's EC key
Pretty straightforward. In a number of tales, SCP-3000 is insinuated to be The Serpent's sibling. The Serpent is the ruler of the Wanderer's Library and should be on par with the Hanged King. As such, SCP-3000 should have an EC key on par with them. I can't remember the exact tales that state they were siblings, but I'm sure someone can pull that up for me later in the thread.

SCP-953's EC key
SCP-953 fought 682 (CTRL+F 953). She needs a 9-A EC key.

Main Event
Ok so about a year ago, I made a CRT on why SCP-5800, otherwise known as the Infosphere, was 5D and hence Low 1-C. However, after deliberation with Ultima, we have come to the conclusion that the Alephs mentioned in SCP-5800 could be real Alephs.

As Ultima put it:

"As far as I can tell, the previous argument for the aleph numbers described in 5800 not qualifying was the fact they are contained in a "the Fifth Dimension," but we've already disregarded dimensionality statements for similar cases in the past (See: DC's Sixth Dimension), where taking them at face value just doesn't fit in with the rest of a verse's cosmology. And even putting that aside, 5800 is explicitly a 5-dimensional space in a purely abstract sense, since its axes aren't really spatial measures like Length, Width or Height but stuff like "Abstractness," "Permeability," and "Corruptibility", so, yeah, those definitely don't serve to disqualify High 1-A anyway."

This would bump all Noospheric creatures to 1-A. Of course, this would - by default - bump Narratives up to High 1-A.

If the above is proven true, what would this mean for scaling?

Well, Noospheric creatures like 3125 and Mnemosyne would be 1-A.

This, in turn, would bump up the God tiers a bit. Since Scarlet King scales to being > 3125, and he shook the Noosphere along with The Brothers Death. So I propose a tier change from "2-A, likely Low 1-C, possibly higher" to "2-A, likely 1-A".

Narrative entities like IHP's Proposal and 2747 will become High 1-A due to the already established uncountable difference between Narratives.

Saikou had this to say about the tiering of the True Authors:

True Authors exist beyond the scope of Swann and likely Pataphysics in its entirety.

"so yeah that's what we know about the true authors
the actual authors, completely unaffected by all the meta shit
made up swann to tell meta stories
when trying to apply this to what we know of Pataphysics, we can either interpret this as:

1. The True Authors are just on another layer of narrative in the Pataphysical pantheon.
2. The True Authors created Pataphysics, and thus the very concept of narrative layers.

The former is kinda the most straightforward. But I think there are some points against it.
Like how it's implied Swanns were created just for meta stuff, which wouldn't make that much sense in the Pataphysics cosmology. You can't "push" a narrative downwards
Or how very little of the pataphysical articles showcasing higher narratives than Swann's affect the Swanns much at all.
so either could work. Hence why I cooould see a "possibly 0" for the True Authors."

This would make True Authors At least High 1-A, possibly 0.

That should be all for now.

Also, shout out to The SCP Revision Team™ for their contributions to this project.
 
Last edited:

Confluctor

VS Battles
Thread Moderator
5,893
3,339
No cake upgrade? Whack

The difference between 2A and 1A is staggeringly high ngl. So I will ask a dumb question, why not bump them to 1A instead? Or do they have too many anti feats?
 
Would 682's true form be given the same upgrade? Because as far as I remember from 6820's article, 682 was able to fight and absorb some of 3125's concept after it got ejected from the Noosphere.
Anyways if the Alephs mentioned are legitimate, then I agree with the 1-A proposal
 
4,543
1,874
Oh hell yeah baby

Infinite levels above baseline 3812.

We take those.

I agree with the CRT.

Also, what levels would all the 1As be at?
 

Tllmbrg

VS Battles
Content Moderator
2,680
778
Bro why are you revising 953 like this
Her current page has other problems plus you didn’t even read her tales
 
3,260
758
No cake upgrade? Whack

The difference between 2A and 1A is staggeringly high ngl. So I will ask a dumb question, why not bump them to 1A instead? Or do they have too many anti feats?
uh, more just because the main low 1-C feats got upgraded to 1-A, so it would be 2-A likely 1-A as the low 1-C was upgraded
 

Sir_Ovens

Resident Kitchen Appliance
VS Battles
Administrator
13,278
4,928
Basically, we have no direct confirmation that SK or The Brothers Death can actually harm Noospheric creatures like 3125. All we have are allusions that 3125 is far below the Scarlet King in power. In addition, Adem El Asem is likely stronger than all the God tiers, including 3125, so I would not be too opposed to just flat 1-A? I just feel it's safer to maintain 2-A since it's the solid and most straightforward tier. Scarlet King's feat of making Yesod his throne is enough to support it.

Make no mistake, a lot of this needs to be discussed. I'd rather not talk about levels of power just yet and focus on arguments for and against 1-A.
 

Sir_Ovens

Resident Kitchen Appliance
VS Battles
Administrator
13,278
4,928
Ok so Saikou has a small bit of information to drop on us.

True Authors exist beyond the scope of Swann and likely Pataphysics in its entirety.

Based on Saikou's own words:

"
so yeah that's what we know about the true authors
the actual authors, completely unaffected by all the meta shit
made up swann to tell meta stories

when trying to apply this to what we know of Pataphysics, we can either interpret this as:

1. The True Authors are just on another layer of narrative in the Pataphysical pantheon.
2. The True Authors created Pataphysics, and thus the very concept of narrative layers.

The former is kinda the most straightforward. But I think there are some points against it.

Like how it's implied Swanns were created just for meta stuff, which wouldn't make that much sense in the Pataphysics cosmology. You can't "push" a narrative downwards
Or how very little of the pataphysical articles showcasing higher narratives than Swann's affect the Swanns much at all.

so either could work. Hence why I cooould see a "possibly 0" for the True Authors."

So At least High 1-A, possibly 0 for True Authors.
 
1,010
1,068
Very straightforward and I agree. Also no useless wall of flowery text like most tier 1 upgrades so +1

Also true authors are most likely just intended to represent the ACTUAL real world authors, so idk if we want to tier them. But if we do then I will personally go with straight up tier 0 rather than a possibly.
 
2,967
889
Also true authors are most likely just intended to represent the ACTUAL real world authors, so idk if we want to tier them. But if we do then I will personally go with straight up tier 0 rather than a possibly.
What's wrong about being the representation of something from our world? Representations aren't the same as the actual thing. And it's listed as possibly because there are two ways to interpret the text, and even tier 0 would be stretching the words somewhat.

As for my opinions, I do agree with the upgrades for 1-A, however keeping the 2-A for SK and those around their power seems a bit weird, considering the gap and massive scaling above other elder gods. Also, 2-A and 1-A aren't exactly close tiers, whatsoever.

For Swann, i'm more inclined for possibly 0, as both are equally reasonable.

Plot and RW stuff seems fine.

3000 needs a link for it, and 953 is fine.
 
1,010
1,068
What's wrong about being the representation of something from our world? Representations aren't the same as the actual thing. And it's listed as possibly because there are two ways to interpret the text, and even tier 0 would be stretching the words somewhat.
Well in this case they aren't even fictional characters or "representations", just straight up the actual authors.
 
911
221
Tier 1 with no mental gymnastics lesgooooo, I agree.

Will wait more on True Authors interpretation taken (tho in my HC they represented the (fake)true authors beyond any extension of the stack, so leaning on tier 0)

And regarding the 2-A, yh it kinda weird and imo uneeded
 
1,010
1,068
Hmm...remind me, what exactly does it take to classify as 1-A again?
Conceptually transcending infinite hierarchies, or directly satisfying the mathematical criteria(Aleph 3 or higher with continuum hypothesis). In this case the latter is what is being applied.
 
5,261
2,087
The SCP Revision Team™ Presents

The High 1-A Revision!


But first!

Undercards
  • Passive Plot Manipulation
  • SCP-3000's EC key
  • SCP-953's EC key

Passive Plot Manipulation
In the tale BLANK, Placeholder explains this:

"In Pataphysics, there are three types of characters. There are generics, the standard lot of people, who aren't exactly interesting enough to show up in most narrative structures. Then, there are protagonists and archetypicals. Protagonists have anomalously-high narrative potential, which means that they often end up being, well, protagonists. Heroes of their own stories, free to act upon the narrative structures around them. Members of royalty, heroes from folklore — it's a form of low-level reality-bending."

Place gestures towards himself and his lunchmate. "You and I, on the other hand, are archetypicals. We have anomalously-low narrative potential, and so the narrative structures of the universe act upon us, instead, shaping our lives in ways that end up being good for other nearby stories. This means we have a tendency to be side-characters and fall into common archetypes. I'm a mad-scientist archetype, for example. I kind-of wear it on my sleeve."

What this means essentially, is that protagonist-type characters like Bright and Clef have low-level plot manipulation courtesy of Narrative entities like Swann. This is outright stated in the follow-up tale, CAST:

"Yes. You all remember the narrative examinations last month?" He's met with nods round the table. "We were testing for 'protagonism', a measure of one's manipulation of surrounding narrative structures. As you hopefully read in your invitation emails, our universe is influenced by 'author-entities', beings from a higher narrative dimension. When an author-entity has an idea for a story, they can inject that story into our 'universal narrative', and it'll influence what happens in our reality."

"Most people aren't interesting enough to show up in these 'stories'. However, people with above-average protagonism are able to react independently to these stories and make their own decisions. They shape the story-structures to fit their own narrative, and so we call them 'protagonists' — literally the main characters in their own stories. As I explained to Blank a while ago, it's a form of low-level reality-bending."

"Harry's passion in life is reading history books," Wettle interjects. "You're telling me some eldritch entity finds that interesting enough to write about?"

Blank cracks his knuckles idly. "Beats a career in repeating other peoples' experiments."

"For Christ's sake—" Place starts, before collecting himself. "I'm telling you the exact opposite, Will. You've all been selected because you have lower-than-average protagonism. You're not just generic characters, but you're more susceptible to narrative influences. When a protagonist or author-entity initiates a story, we fall into place as needed, fulfilling common archetypes."

Blank leans forward, gesturing to the group. "We're side-characters. Archetypicals."

"Yes. Thanks, Harry." Place gets up from his chair, pacing around the podium to his laptop. "Now, most mid- to high-level Foundation personnel are protagonists. Archetypicals are exceedingly rare in our organization as we're focused on people who can combat anomalies and their associated stories, rather than be shaped by them.

"However, there are some anomalies that do not 'want' to be written about; they compel protagonists away, pushing them into other narrative structures. As such, our low narrative content makes us useful for dealing with such anomalies, as we're resistant to becoming more 'protagonistic'."

"Wait, wait, wait, just, hold up." Forkley raises his hands expressively. "Just wanna make sure I really understand this."

"Of course." Place boots up the digital projector, connecting it to his laptop as he listens.

"Protagonists can shape the world around them, on some level, so that they can, what, go on adventures?"

"Not necessarily. The 'shape' of our universal narrative is all about change — you can see this in simple abstractions of stories, like the Hero's Journey. It's actually a function of entropy; a hero has some ordered ideal, and that ideal is challenged over the course of a story, so their beliefs become more complicated and disordered. And, if an author-entity writes a story that requires a 'hero' archetype, an archetypical can fulfill that role. Protagonists are essentially able to make stories revolve around them and their change."

Now what this means is that there will be two different additions. The complex one would be Protagonists. Those that can be described as such would get Plot-Manipulation and Reality Warping on account of being able to shape the Narrative around them. In addition, based on the Archetypicals series, we know that the Narrative always favors a satisfying conclusion. An example would be a rubik cube always being solved when scrambled regardless of any logical steps required to achieve that outcome. As such, a Protagonist will always win, or at the very least, be victorious in the end; be it total or pyrrhic. Now the challenge comes from deciding who gets this upgrade. Obviously, author avatars like Bright and Clef should get it based on the quote above, but we also have to consider what constitutes a "Protagonist" in this scenario. If we are being all-encompassing, literally every profile would have this unless outright stated to not be a protagonist like Fred.

The simple addition would be that of Archetypicals. This will be simple since there is a black and white statement of who are Archetypicals. Placeholder and his team are Archetypicals, and that is all. Archetypicals would get Resistance to Plot Manipulation and Reality Warping, as they are not affected by the plot of a Narrative and have "free-will" so to speak.

More context on the nature of Protagonists, Archetypicals, and how they work can be read up on the Archetypicals series as part of the On Guard 43 canon.

SCP-3000's EC key
Pretty straightforward. In a number of tales, SCP-3000 is insinuated to be The Serpent's sibling. The Serpent is the ruler of the Wanderer's Library and should be on par with the Hanged King. As such, SCP-3000 should have an EC key on par with them. I can't remember the exact tales that state they were siblings, but I'm sure someone can pull that up for me later in the thread.

SCP-953's EC key
SCP-953 fought 682 (CTRL+F 953). She needs a 9-A EC key.

Main Event
Ok so about a year ago, I made a CRT on why SCP-5800, otherwise known as the Infosphere, was 5D and hence Low 1-C. However, after deliberation with Ultima, we have come to the conclusion that the Alephs mentioned in SCP-5800 could be real Alephs. This would bump all Noospheric creatures to 1-A. Of course, this would - by default - bump Narratives up to High 1-A.

If the above is proven true, what would this mean for scaling?

Well, Noospheric creatures like 3125 and Mnemosyne would be 1-A.

This, in turn, would bump up the God tiers a bit. Since Scarlet King scales to being > 3125, and he shook the Noosphere along with The Brothers Death. So I propose a tier change from "2-A, likely Low 1-C, possibly higher" to "2-A, likely 1-A".

Narrative entities like IHP's Proposal and 2747 will become High 1-A due to the already established uncountable difference between Narratives.

That should be all for now.

Also, shout out to The SCP Revision Team™ for their contributions to this project.

finally scp high 1-A will now happen.


though sir ovens. (will scp-3812 ever be possibly tier 0, i said possibly)


also will scp-682 finally get upgrades yet? (Like high godly regen and more resistances?)
 
1,010
1,068
Who are represented in fictional form, and therefor classifiable.
That would clearly ignore the whole intention of the situation, as the actual authors appear after the already in-verse fake authors(which were their actual in-verse fictional avatars) die.
 
2,967
889
That would clearly ignore the whole intention of the situation, as the actual authors appear after the already in-verse fake authors(which were their actual in-verse fictional avatars) die.
Which means that they aren't the true authors.... who are the True Authors of swann. They very clearly are fictional and represent the authors writing, but then again, so did Swann writers before True Swann was introduced, and we added it as well. Also, they have direct importance in SCP, and aren't just an offhand mention.
 
1,010
1,068
Which means that they aren't the true authors.... who are the True Authors of swann. They very clearly are fictional and represent the authors writing
They show up after what we previously thought were the authors die. They are quite clearly intended to be the actual real life authors.

Although yea I guess it's just the Swann thing kicked up a notch to include metafictional phenomenon as well.
 
5,261
2,087
Which means that they aren't the true authors.... who are the True Authors of swann. They very clearly are fictional and represent the authors writing, but then again, so did Swann writers before True Swann was introduced, and we added it as well. Also, they have direct importance in SCP, and aren't just an offhand mention.

infinite day you think scp-682 will have high godly regen plus more resistances soon?
 
You know since we're on the topic of the SCP authors, there's a question I want to ask because it'll be stuck in my head otherwise.
Isn't SCP-3999 suppose to be the author of the article, Lord StarFish? At least that's what I've heard is the case but IDK, I mainly ask because then wouldn't 3999 have an author key or just be it's own thing
 
18,971
2,305
I somehow missed this but I agree with the OP and the stuff about True Authors, I believe this is a very clear-cut upgrade given how it almost exactly aligns with the mathematical aspects of our standard.
 
4,742
1,071
I think this seems fine. Does this mean the team will look at the low tiers more. anyway scp-3000 is the brother of the serpent canonically SCP-4812 is the source.
 
16,569
1,701
You know since we're on the topic of the SCP authors, there's a question I want to ask because it'll be stuck in my head otherwise.
Isn't SCP-3999 suppose to be the author of the article, Lord StarFish? At least that's what I've heard is the case but IDK, I mainly ask because then wouldn't 3999 have an author key or just be it's own thing
Yes, 3999 is meant to represent the author Lord Stonefish, but not in the way someone like the Swann are, unless I missed some article about it that adds new info. At best you could treat it maybe as an avatar, but It works very differently from even the most direct author inserts like Scarlet Berkeley. Talloran gains his abilities by the end of it later as well iirc, so I think it is better to treat it as metaphorical but cosmologically unrelated entity
 

Sir_Ovens

Resident Kitchen Appliance
VS Battles
Administrator
13,278
4,928
We still need to discuss who counts as a "Protagonist" since the broad definition would mean that 90% of our SCP profiles will get it.
 
2,967
889
We still need to discuss who counts as a "Protagonist" since the broad definition would mean that 90% of our SCP profiles will get it.
Clef, Kondraki, Bright, Gerald, Lucien, basically all the 05's, and most high-level researchers, and all field agents who feature as a protagonist prominently in their stories.
 

CrimsonStarFallen

VS Battles
Thread Moderator
12,366
2,959
Ok so about a year ago, I made a CRT on why SCP-5800, otherwise known as the Infosphere, was 5D and hence Low 1-C. However, after deliberation with Ultima, we have come to the conclusion that the Alephs mentioned in SCP-5800 could be real Alephs. This would bump all Noospheric creatures to 1-A. Of course, this would - by default - bump Narratives up to High 1-A.

If the above is proven true
I agree with the upgrade itself from outside context, but you never really explained why they should be real Alephs. Like I expected at least some explanation but this was really just "Ultima said so".

Information about True Authors should also have been added to OP in the first place. This thread is kind of a mess.
 
2,967
889
I agree with the upgrade itself from outside context, but you never really explained why they should be real Alephs. Like I expected at least some explanation but this was really just "Ultima said so".

Information about True Authors should also have been added to OP in the first place. This thread is kind of a mess.
It was debated extensively between Ultima and Ovens in discord, and they eventually found enough supporting details to believe that the alephs are actual alephs. Ultima or Oven will give you better context though.
 

Sir_Ovens

Resident Kitchen Appliance
VS Battles
Administrator
13,278
4,928
I agree with the upgrade itself from outside context, but you never really explained why they should be real Alephs. Like I expected at least some explanation but this was really just "Ultima said so".

Information about True Authors should also have been added to OP in the first place. This thread is kind of a mess.
I'm just the guy that posts the CRTs. A lot of the arguments made come from the revision team as a whole. I was hoping Ultima could step in and respond to this and explain why they were real Alephs himself.

As for the True Authors bit, I was not sure if they had enough proof so I left them out. However, Saik provided me the proof after I posted the thread, hence its inclusion as a reply instead.

On that note, @Ultima_Reality
 

Ultima_Reality

?????????
VS Battles
Consultant
Administrator
4,182
4,436
Yeah, as one of the people who suggested that to begin with, I obviously agree.

As far as I can tell, the previous argument for the aleph numbers described in 5800 not qualifying was the fact they are contained in a "the Fifth Dimension," but we've already disregarded dimensionality statements for similar cases in the past (See: DC's Sixth Dimension), where taking them at face value just doesn't fit in with the rest of a verse's cosmology. And even putting that aside, 5800 is explicitly a 5-dimensional space in a purely abstract sense, since its axes aren't really spatial measures like Length, Width or Height but stuff like "Abstractness," "Permeability," and "Corruptibility", so, yeah, those definitely don't serve to disqualify High 1-A anyway.
 
16,569
1,701
To further back up Ultima, "The Fifth Dimension" is also often used interchangeably with "The Fifth World" so its also possible it isn't even meant in that sense regardless. A rare inverse case of "dimension" being mistake for an axis instead of a universe
 

CrimsonStarFallen

VS Battles
Thread Moderator
12,366
2,959
Yeah, as one of the people who suggested that to begin with, I obviously agree.

As far as I can tell, the previous argument for the aleph numbers described in 5800 not qualifying was the fact they are contained in a "the Fifth Dimension," but we've already disregarded dimensionality statements for similar cases in the past (See: DC's Sixth Dimension), where taking them at face value just doesn't fit in with the rest of a verse's cosmology. And even putting that aside, 5800 is explicitly a 5-dimensional space in a purely abstract sense, since its axes aren't really spatial measures like Length, Width or Height but stuff like "Abstractness," "Permeability," and "Corruptibility", so, yeah, those definitely don't serve to disqualify High 1-A anyway.
That is fine then.
 
Yes, 3999 is meant to represent the author Lord Stonefish, but not in the way someone like the Swann are, unless I missed some article about it that adds new info. At best you could treat it maybe as an avatar, but It works very differently from even the most direct author inserts like Scarlet Berkeley. Talloran gains his abilities by the end of it later as well iirc, so I think it is better to treat it as metaphorical but cosmologically unrelated entity
Yeah that makes sense, thanks for answering the question. I always assumed that 3999 was Lord StoneFish because IIRC Lord StoneFish wrote the article while they were in a terrible mental state and 3999 was representing his struggle to make a compelling SCP, which is why the article has those cuts and reedits all the time but there isn't necessarily any direct info which states that 3999 is StoneFish so it's likely not related to the 001 entities
 
223
14
Im honored that i made contribution For THE SCP FOUNDATION Upgrade even if i done little to help
Thank you Oven,Bambu,and Dargoo
 

Sir_Ovens

Resident Kitchen Appliance
VS Battles
Administrator
13,278
4,928
So 3 mods have ok'd this including Ultima, Crimson, and Confluctor. Now we just need to decide who gets the protagonist plot manip. I'll start up a list and we can all discuss and add to it.
 
We still need to discuss who counts as a "Protagonist" since the broad definition would mean that 90% of our SCP profiles will get it.
I'd say a good way to judge this would be to see which doctors or agents have a tag on the SCP wiki, this means they're featured prominently in tales. Except for characters like Harry Blank, who are stated to be Archetypicals.
 

Sir_Ovens

Resident Kitchen Appliance
VS Battles
Administrator
13,278
4,928
Yeah but do SCPs with their own tales count?
 
2,967
889
Yeah but do SCPs with their own tales count?
In very small circumstances, it still has to fit the "satisfying conclusion" for their character's goals and motivations, and even if they fit that it should be limited, as their not exactly full protagonists, but mainly are molded into one to fit the story.

In that sense, you can also say none fit the bill because they don't exist as protagonists in the real sense, but rather fit the bill in set stories where there is nobody else to fill it.
 
223
14
Yeah but do SCPs with their own tales count?
I think they count.
Bein the main character doesn't mean you have to be a foundation agent or Human from a different GoI.
We have read lot of tales where SCPs and non human being be the MC of thier own story
 
4,543
1,874
Before we go on about the plot fuckery, since the 1A stuff is basically accepted, what do we do with the 2A part? Most people seem fine with just outright removing it.
 

Sir_Ovens

Resident Kitchen Appliance
VS Battles
Administrator
13,278
4,928
I'm not comfortable with that since we have don't have any direct confirmation that the God tiers scale to the Noospheric God tiers.
 

Tllmbrg

VS Battles
Content Moderator
2,680
778
I'm not comfortable with that since we have don't have any direct confirmation that the God tiers scale to the Noospheric God tiers.
Do we not have SK > 3125 and their battle with TDB shaking the Noosephere?
 

Sir_Ovens

Resident Kitchen Appliance
VS Battles
Administrator
13,278
4,928
Yeah, I think it's fine for those on TBD level to be flat 1-A.

The lower God tiers like Hanged King and Yaldabaoth would remain 2-A, likely Low 1-C, possibly higher.
 

Sir_Ovens

Resident Kitchen Appliance
VS Battles
Administrator
13,278
4,928
So if everyone is in agreement, is it ok for me to go through with the revision or should there be more discussion?
 

Antvasima

Maintenance worker
VS Battles
Bureaucrat
Administrator
129,728
35,646
Let's wait for more comments from staff and knowledgeable members first, since it is a massive upgrade.
 

Tllmbrg

VS Battles
Content Moderator
2,680
778
Let's wait for more comments from staff and knowledgeable members first, since it is a massive upgrade.
Literally all the staff that are also knowledgeable agree on the upgrade + several other knowledgeable members what
 
4,543
1,874
Pretty sure we have virtually no disagreement at all, and literally all the knowledgeable members and staff agreed with this.

I don't think we need to wait anymore.
 
428
183
So 3 mods have ok'd this including Ultima, Crimson, and Confluctor. Now we just need to decide who gets the protagonist plot manip. I'll start up a list and we can all discuss and add to it.
Wasn't the protagonist's profile (Benjamin Oliver Walker, IINM) removed from this wiki?
 

Antvasima

Maintenance worker
VS Battles
Bureaucrat
Administrator
129,728
35,646
Pretty sure we have virtually no disagreement at all, and literally all the knowledgeable members and staff agreed with this.

I don't think we need to wait anymore.
We need to get a reasonable amount of staff input before upgrades to massively high tiers.
 

Tllmbrg

VS Battles
Content Moderator
2,680
778
Seems like needless to boot
What staff that aren’t knowledgeable members gonna add to the discussion lol
 
4,543
1,874
We need to get a reasonable amount of staff input before upgrades to massively high tiers.
We already have like 3 staff members accepting this, and one of the most knowledgeable and credible members, Ultima, already agreed to it.

And just like what tllm said, what will people who have no knowledge on this will bring, when other knowledge and credible members already accepted it?
 

Antvasima

Maintenance worker
VS Battles
Bureaucrat
Administrator
129,728
35,646
We need some experienced staff confirmations at least. I will call for some more of them in order to make certain. Revisions like this should definitely not be impatiently and hectically rushed. We can wait for quite a while.

@AKM sama @Promestein @DontTalkDT @DarkDragonMedeus @SomebodyData @Celestial_Pegasus @Wokistan @Mr._Bambu @Elizhaa @Qawsedf234 @ByAsura @Sir_Ovens @Damage3245 @Starter_Pack @Ogbunabali @Abstractions @LordGriffin1000 @Colonel_Krukov @SamanPatou

What do you think about this?
 

DontTalkDT

A Fossil at This Point
VS Battles
Bureaucrat
Administrator
5,860
3,920
I'm not touching SCP with a 10-foot pole, so I will just ask my usual question: Do the alephs only exist as concepts or is there actually anything physical/spatial of which there are as aleph_{whatever} many?
 

Ultima_Reality

?????????
VS Battles
Consultant
Administrator
4,182
4,436
I'm not touching SCP with a 10-foot pole, so I will just ask my usual question: Do the alephs only exist as concepts or is there actually anything physical/spatial of which there are as aleph_{whatever} many?
Yes, to your second question, since SCP-5800, the article in question, is about another reality inhabited by a bunch of creatures that are the size of alephs and have an hierarchy ordered around this specific characteristic (Size):

Right, so what we've learned so far about SCP-5800 is that it's an ecological ideaspace for extremely volatile abstract concepts. These things have a hierarchy of sorts which is dictated by the size of these beings.

I use the term "size" loosely because th- [coughs] there ah… these things are presented in sets of infinities; like how many integers or natural numbers there are in- in mathematics. The sheer size of these- these beings are defined as uncountable infinities. Despite logic telling us that there can't be anything larger in scale than… well… infinity.

Yeah, I know to the average layman that can't be possible. But it's very much true. These beings are represented by their "aleph numbers": numbers which represent the cardinality of infinite sets. Professor Hutchinson stated that such beings exist in these numbers and have been known to for quite some time.
 
2,967
889
I'm not touching SCP with a 10-foot pole, so I will just ask my usual question: Do the alephs only exist as concepts or is there actually anything physical/spatial of which there are as aleph_{whatever} many?
The creatures in question are explicitly aleph-sized, as in their size corresponds to an aleph.
 

DontTalkDT

A Fossil at This Point
VS Battles
Bureaucrat
Administrator
5,860
3,920
Yes, to your second question, since SCP-5800, the article in question, is about another reality inhabited by a bunch of creatures that are the size of alephs and have an hierarchy ordered around this specific characteristic (Size):
I mean, saying something is aleph in size is like saying something is 20 large. And isn't that a concept/idea space populated by concepts? From what I read none of that space is physical and size is more a metaphor here, to describe the difference between the amounts of infinite sets, rather than actual meters or something.
 
2,967
889
I mean, saying something is aleph in size is like saying something is 20 large. And isn't that a concept/idea space populated by concepts? From what I read none of that space is physical and size is more a metaphor here, to describe the difference between the amounts of infinite sets, rather than actual meters or something.
It's not "size" in the actual sense, as explained here:

"I use the term "size" loosely because th- [coughs] there ah… these things are presented in sets of infinities; like how many integers or natural numbers there are in- in mathematics. The sheer size of these- these beings are defined as uncountable infinities. Despite logic telling us that there can't be anything larger in scale than… well… infinity.

Yeah, I know to the average layman that can't be possible. But it's very much true. These beings are represented by their "aleph numbers": numbers which represent the cardinality of infinite sets. Professor Hutchinson stated that such beings exist in these numbers and have been known to for quite some time."

It also states that they exist inside there aleph numbers, and therefore occupy the same level as them.
 

Ultima_Reality

?????????
VS Battles
Consultant
Administrator
4,182
4,436
I mean, saying something is aleph in size is like saying something is 20 large
I wouldn't say that. Saying something is "20 large" is a meaningless descriptor because "20" can refer to a bunch of different things, many of which we wouldn't classify under the same tier at all (20 meters, 20 centimeters, 20 kilometers, 20 bananas, 20 planets, 20 universes, and etc). When you reach the size of large enough alephs, those distinctions don't really mean much because a set of anything at these cardinalities would be higher-tiered, whether its elements are universes or 0-dimensional singletons.

And isn't that a concept/idea space populated by concepts? From what I read none of that space is physical and size is more a metaphor here, to describe the difference between the amounts of infinite sets, rather than actual meters or something.
I'm less knowledgeable on that aspect than others on this thread, admittedly, but the verse itself does seem to treat their "size" as a literal characteristic, else their usage of aleph numbers to represent it wouldn't really be sensical, added to how the lowliest inhabitant of 5800 is described as "less than nothing" compared to the other beings in there. Other people could probably better inform you of this, though.
 

DontTalkDT

A Fossil at This Point
VS Battles
Bureaucrat
Administrator
5,860
3,920
I wouldn't say that. Saying something is "20 large" is a meaningless descriptor because "20" can refer to a bunch of different things, many of which we wouldn't classify under the same tier at all (20 meters, 20 centimeters, 20 kilometers, 20 bananas, 20 planets, 20 universes, and etc). When you reach the size of an aleph, those distinctions don't really mean much because a set of anything at these cardinalities would be higher-tiered, whether its elements are universes or 0-dimensional singletons.

I'm less knowledgeable on that aspect than others on this thread, admittedly, but the verse itself does seem to treat their "size" as a literal characteristic, else their usage of aleph numbers to represent it wouldn't really be sensical, added to how the lowliest inhabitant of 5800 is described as "less than nothing" compared to the other beings in there. Other people could probably better inform you of this, though.
That is true if it is 20 of anything and not 20 in size in the way the set {1,2,3}, as set of abstract mathematical objects, is 3 in size.

Now they do appear to have a hierarchy in my understanding, question is just whether the power gaps can be proven to be correspondingly large or whether the alephs just serve as the ordering of the powerlevels.
 

Ultima_Reality

?????????
VS Battles
Consultant
Administrator
4,182
4,436
That is true if it is 20 of anything and not 20 in size in the way the set {1,2,3}, as set of abstract mathematical objects, is 3 in size.
I don't think that's a very good example here because, even then, you can conceive of "1," "2," and "3" as points of the real line, and thus as 0-dimensional objects, meaning this would be, indeed, a set of "something."

Now they do appear to have a hierarchy in my understanding, question is just whether the power gaps can be proven to be correspondingly large or whether the alephs just serve as the ordering of the powerlevels.
The aleph numbers in question are a measure of the "fractal topology" of these entities (In the verse's own words), and given that a topology on a set is itself another set (Or a set of sets, I suppose), I'd say it is a very direct correspondence, coupled with the above.
 

DontTalkDT

A Fossil at This Point
VS Battles
Bureaucrat
Administrator
5,860
3,920
I don't think that's a very good example here because, even then, you can conceive of "1," "2," and "3" as points of the real line, and thus as 0-dimensional objects, meaning this would be, indeed, a set of "something."
1, 2, 3 as points of a physical space is just one interpretation of the mathematical object. As mathematical objects alone they aren't spatial points. Set theoretically speaking 1 is just {{}}, i.e. the set containing the set containing nothing.

The aleph numbers in question are a measure of the "fractal topology" of these entities (In the verse's own words), and given that a topology on a set is itself another set (Or a set of sets, I suppose), I'd say it is a very direct correspondence, coupled with the above.
Said fractal topology in my understanding is SCP-033 (SCP-3125 which is mentioned as resident of SCP-5800 in the previous CRT mentions such), which is a field of numbers which sums up to an integer of all things. That doesn't sound like an infinite powerlevel hierarchy thing to me at all. (That SCP-033 seems to subvert standard mathematical ordering doesn't help either)
 

Ultima_Reality

?????????
VS Battles
Consultant
Administrator
4,182
4,436
1, 2, 3 as points of a physical space is just one interpretation of the mathematical object. As mathematical objects alone they aren't spatial points. Set theoretically speaking 1 is just {{}}, i.e. the set containing the set containing nothing
Yes, and my point is that there is reason for us to assume the beings from 5800 are not really abiding by some purely abstract interpretation, at least not entirely, else, as I said, their "sheer size" being directly said to be expressed by aleph numbers wouldn't make much sense under any metric, but I suppose that segues into the argument below, anyway.

Said fractal topology in my understanding is SCP-033 (SCP-3125 which is mentioned as resident of SCP-5800 in the previous CRT mentions such), which is a field of numbers which sums up to an integer of all things. That doesn't sound like an infinite powerlevel hierarchy thing to me at all. (That SCP-033 seems to subvert standard mathematical ordering doesn't help either)
"Theta-Prime" is specifically the dimensionality of 3125's topology (Which I elaborated on the nature of, up there), and 3125 itself as far as I am aware has no evidence of being particularly noteworthy among the inhabitants of the Infosphere (5800) that doesn't come from heavily biased cultists, so that doesn't really serve as counter-context for anything, I don't think.
 
Top