Terraria's low 7-B rating: How does a fog scale to AP again?

[EmbalmerMaster9000]

I've joked about this on a communication platform with other VBW members but I decided to actually deal with it outright - the Terrarian's low 7-B rating is a bit weird, to say at the least.

My main gripe with the Low 7-B ratings are how they exactly scale from Duke Fishro from an AP standpoint, as his feat is presumably creating a fog big enough to cover the island the game takes place on. The calc itself is valid under that assumption (which seems to work, as he does get stat amped in water), but scaling it to AP is a nono, honestly.

Duke Fishron does use water to attack, yes, and that would be enough of a justification if it were to be implied that his presumed fog feat somehow scales to attacks such as the cthulhunadoes he creates or his bubbles.

Before reaching any conclusion here, I'll wait to hold a discussion with everyone

 

[Keeweed]

I've heard the forum transfer is happening really soon so I'll try to comment after the transfer if I have the time. (Though if it is fine for me to post why I think he should scale now, I'll do it).

 

[EmbalmerMaster9000]

I think it's a good time for me to bump this. Was too lazy to bother, but it shouldn't hurt.

There were a few replies defending the low 7-B rating but those weren't saved in the archive: if I remember, the tiering was defended under the idea of "he uses water as an attack and a casual ability like this should scale" and "this was a casual feat". I can't wrap my head around it still.

If this method is still valid, then Monster Islands' higher tiers would be High 6-C by nature of this dude that uses ice attacks casually creating a huge blizzard - which I downgraded by myself as per storm calculation revisions. If this still applies, then I believe it should carry over to other verses like this one since it is effectively the same exact feat - character casually creates storm, storm shouldn't scale since it isn't created as a byproduct of an attack the player can tank or anything like that. Could also make memetic arguments for High 5-A roblox gear since there's like 6-7 different instances of feats like this that are "casual byproducts" of fights between players although all of them are created more or less like environmental destruction, but that's a rabbit hole I don't want to jump into again.

Honestly speaking? Low 7-B should be a possible rating or removed outright. It's vague at best ("fog" could be something else, though assumption of water provided context works; whether or not this physically scales is not cut and dry). Something on the lines of "8-A, possibly Low 7-B" would work.

Dynamite feat could perhaps be talked about at some point but it's a valid feat given that the player can physically survive this and harm enemies that can tank it. I don't mind it.

 

[Sadistic_Sleuth]

I am fine with this. The fog isn’t an offensive attack, more so some duke uses to hide around in (albeit multiple AP feats aren’t purely offensive, so the possibly Low 7-B thing works.)

Also, since Duke is superior to the other 8-A by a good amount, I think it should be “At least 8-A, possibly Low 7-B”

 

[EmbalmerMaster9000]

Yeah, I suggest it being a possible rating due to the possibility of it being a casual attack but the rest is highly vague. The "At least" rating you suggested makes sense.

 

[EmbalmerMaster9000]

Bump

 

[Keeweed]

I’m perfectly fine with at least 8-A. Storm feats are a little weird in my opinion since they are heavily case by case and what we count as a legitimate feat sometimes seems to not be counted other times. I know many characters that scale to storms because they use magic to both attack and summon storms so I don’t know why this instance would be vastly different (for example Cinderfall scales to her storms because she uses magic in combat and too make the storms while Duke uses weather manipulation in combat and to make the storms.).

I’m wondering if the Terrarian’s profile would also need to be changed. I’ve seen some characters just be 7-A for scaling to a character that is at least 7-B possibly 7-A, so I’m wondering if the Terrarian’s need to be rewritten or not.

One bigger problem is that I’ve reentered Duke’s low 7-B calc into a calculator a dozen times and I keep getting 7-B results instead (34 megatons rather than the 3.4 the calculation currently says) so should we discuss that here or should that be it’s own crt?

Edit: just want to say sorry for responding so late, I had a test Thursday and a project due last Friday so I missed this thread popping back up for a while.

 

[Wokistan]

I also agree that this doesn't really have a reason to scale out to his other stuff while also not being supported by other stuff, if the next highest rating is 8-A.

Also, doesn't the fog only hover around the ocean anyways?

 

[Keeweed]

The fog covers the whole map. Also the 8-B+ (90 tons which is why everyone is 8-A) feat that everyone upscales from is performed by the very first boss in the game while Duke is the third to last and the second to last is the one that performs the 5-C feat.

 

[DeathstroketheHedgehog]

I don't want to think of Moon Lord as less than moon level, especially with him based off of being Terraria's Cthulu, but now that 5-C was brought up, I'm just now noticing it's a shaky tier as well.

Celestial Towers are considered moon level for pulling the moon closer to earth, but that's not what they do, the background shows different planets of unknown sizes with different atmospheres, and it's honestly just the background fading into view when you get near them rather than a showing of them pulling them towards the world. On top of that, it's not done with physical power, and they themselves don't attack at all, let alone attack the Terrarian, so I don't see how the Terrarian would be able to scale to that shaky tier.

Then there's Golem, who's only reason of being "possibly 5-C" is because solar tablets magically cause an eclipse for the day, and Golem, with no actual evidence, is considered possibly "stronger" than that due to being the guardian boss of the temple and made of the same stuff. Personally I see that as too shaky for even a possibly key, but apparently that was good enough last time.

The last piece of evidence for 5-C is that grappling hook gear which had a statement to pull the moon down, but that statement is just a joking reference to It's a Wonderful Life.
Terraria: "You want the moon? Just grapple it and pull it down!"
Reference: "You want the moon? Just say the word and I'll throw a lasso around it and pull it down!"
Otherwise, there's no real concrete evidence for lunar hooks warranting the Terrarian a 5-C tier.

So along with 7-B, we also will have to reconsider the legitimacy of 5-C.

 

[Keeweed]

The moon feat has been discussed before. I even tried to downgrade it before and people rejected me, but there are few things wrong with your statement.

The celestial pillars do attack you, they have attacks of their own. They are also stated to be able to empower their troops since some of the enemies are stated to be stronger due to being covered in their celestial energy. The monolith’s are stated to have a small amount of the pillars power and they bring the moon closer to the planet. It is a transition but that is why the Terrarian is baseline moon level, because we don’t know how long it takes the moon to get closer to the planet.

Though this should be its own discussion. If you want to make a thread on the moon feat you can.

 

[DeathstroketheHedgehog]

Admittedly yes I forgot most of the pillars actually attack you, though this still doesn't change the main issue of how it's not the moon, but a sepatate planet of unknown size that fades into the background rather than being shown pulled in, probably hinting at an ability rather than AP. However I'd want to know where it is stated that the enemies are empowered.

The reason I brought it up here was because it wason the topic of discussing Duke Fishron's tier (which has possibly 5-C has a key), and the 7-B revision didn't seem to be too large nor controversial to not bring up the other tier while we're at it since we can't do two CRTs per verse. But if you want to wait on that then we can.

 

[Keeweed]

I forgot about the one CRT per verse rule that rule is dumb. I’m actually much more fine with Duke’s feat being environmental destruction because the versus I always compared Duke’s storm too are also getting downgraded for being environmental destruction right now.

When it comes to the moon feat, Crawltipede is stated to be vastly more durable due to being surround in the pillar’s cosmic energy. (The bestiary descriptions are on the trivia section of that page, the bestiary descriptions are in the game itself)

Predictor is also stated to use the cosmic energy for its attacks.

I’ve brought up the moon being different sizes and colors before and people said the color comes from the screen tint and the different sizes come from the moon being closer to the Earth. Though assuming these are random planets rather than the moon, that would need a discussion itself. The Moonlord is stated in lore to be a threat to the world of Terraria itself and he is stated to be practically a god, while the gods in lore are stated to create worlds, so the Moonlord may get upgraded to 5-B. This upgrade was being discussed before the forum move, but the forum move got rid of it, I think after this thread would be a good time to discuss the 5-C stuff.

 

[DeathstroketheHedgehog]

Idk how they came to that tint conclusion considering that they are very notably different celestial bodies, but I'll leave the rest of my arguments for the later thread then.

 

[Keeweed]

Should I get some more Terraria supports to talk about this thread. I wasn’t the one who originally brought up the fog creation during the thread that upgraded Duke so I think I could get them and some other people when I get the chance.

 

[MrWarnerTheGreat]

I personally think 5-B is a more likely candidate than 5-C. In lore, the entire Dryad Race, while amped by their connection to the planet, couldn't beat Moon Lord. A single Dryad is Massively inferior to current Moon Lord (I.e 5-B for pre and post war)

I also agree with the celestial moon for pillar being a different moon entirely. It's shown in the achievement and each moon has visible traits that others don't have.

Should also mention that pillars have High 5-A calcs for pulling the moons closer to orbit than their original position (Which is presumed to be done through cosmic power) and I'm curious on the opinions regarding those

 

[DeathstroketheHedgehog]

Nothing implies the Dryad race as a whole were planet level, nor the connection to the planet being planet level. And the cosmic pillars calc is flawed based on the fact that the distances these celestial bodies are as well as their size are unknown, along with how they are brought to the planet since the most we see is a fade rather than actual movement.

Either way, 5-C discussion is saved for later, we both agreed to go back on topic for 7-B.

 

[MrWarnerTheGreat]

"Nothing implies the Dryad race as a whole were planet level, nor the connection to the planet being planet level. And the cosmic pillars calc is flawed based on the fact that the distances these celestial bodies are as well as their size are unknown, along with how they are brought to the planet since the most we see is a fade rather than actual movement."

"At last, when all hope seemed lost, the ancient race of Dryads arose to wage battle against Cthulhu. The Dryads, with their unparalleled connection to the planet, were Terraria's truly last hope as they joined together to save all life from annihilation." <--- Context heavily implies they were physically amped in order to combat Cthulhu, which resorted to crippling him and sealing Cthulhu's remains (Moon Lord) in the moon

They're the distance of the moon. The moons that orbit the planet are the ones pulled down (The Terraria planet has four moons which you can see on every night [I.e the Tints, ring, etc]).

 

[Keeweed]

They weren’t amped. It just says they have a connection to the planet.

Can we please save the moon discussion for another thread, because the Moonlord may not even scale to it anymore if him being a threat to the world of Terraria means anything or not.

 

[MrWarnerTheGreat]

He doesn't scale to Pillars (At least not all four, maybe an individual one as they were meant to seal him, which is broken only after he's built up enough power (Which he doesn't do at the current point in the game) so you're right on that part.

They weren’t amped. It just says they have a connection to the planet.

If the connection wasn't an amp, then why bother mentioning it? It otherwise serves no purpose to the story.

Can we please save the moon discussion for another thread, because the Moonlord may not even scale to it anymore if him being a threat to the world of Terraria means anything or not.

Regarding Duke Fishron, I'll stay neutral as my Hardmode bosses scaling is far different than the wikis (I have Duke upscale from Destroyer, who did an earthquake thing). You could argue the Sharknados Duke makes as supporting evidence for the fog feat as those get massive in size the longer his fight progresses

 

[Overlord775]

@DeathstroketheHedgehog

Duke Fishron uses his weather manipulation in an offensive way, his tornadoes and cyclones, so the Low 7-B is combact appliable

also, no, the Celestial Pillar pull the moon, as the event is litterally called the Lunal Events and them being the seals of the Moon Lord, which is on the moon

also, for why the moon change aspect, every event centered around the moon does that [The Blood Moon turn the moon red, the Pumpking moon turns the moon into a Pumpkin, the Frost Moon turning the moon into a snowman head]

for why the Terrarian scales, you can craft the Monoliths out of the Fragments from the Pillars, which are able to reproduce the same feat as the Pillar themselves, showing that the fragments hold that power and thus weapons crafted out of them would scale

for golem, well, now that we know that the power cells are solar-powered instead than some esotherical magic the feat is not solid at all

 

[Keeweed]

I knew I needed to ask other people to join this thread. I suck at trying to explain stuff like this. I also for some reason completely forgot that half of Duke’s attacks revolve around attacking you with his weather manipulation, so that definitely helps support low 7-B Duke, though I don’t know how strict this site is with storm feats. It feels like it is getting much stricter but someone should probably make a thread about storm feats in general soon.

I would make it but I have final exams coming up so I would be way too nervous to do that.

 

[DeathstroketheHedgehog]

@Overlord775

I never said anything about Duke Fishron at all in this thread. I'm completely neutral on it because that'll end depending on vsbattle's standards for storm feats.

The celestial pillars aren't shown literally pulling the moon. In fact they're never shown physically doing anything other than floating, that's literally the entire reasoning behind my statement.

Anyone who actually takes a good look at the background knows that those are different celestial bodies by the different textures. The vortex pillar literally has in one with rings. Simply saying an event has a color change doesn't mean anything, I mean the blood moon is literally based off the idea of a real life blood moon, ot would be surprising if the moon DIDN'T change color.

I'm fully aware the Terrarian scales to the items that the Pillars bring. My issue was the fact that there is no physicals that the pillars actually do to scale to. The closest argument I got was from Keeweed from bringing up the pillars' own defensive attacks, but those attacks do not replicate whatever ability was used to transport the unknown celestial bodies in the background. It's literally faded into the scene, for all we know it could be remote teleportation.

 

[Overlord775]

Kee told me the Low 7-B was being question, so sorry about that

changing the moon to be made of snow/pumpkin >>> rings in terms of changes.

I mean, they don't have to, since the power to do the feat is within the fragments, there's no reason to assume the same power can't be used by the lunal weapons

also, well, it could be teleportation tbh, though it would be very weird considering none of the Pillars is shown to just teleport stuff and the closest thing being Vortex creating portals. Also the fact that the moon returns to it's original position hints more towards them pulling ad keeping the moon closer, as if they just teleported it in the thing would just return to it's original position immidiatly since that's what it does after the pillar is destroyed, which shows the pillar are keeping it from doing do.

 

[DeathstroketheHedgehog]

changing the moon to be made of snow/pumpkin >>> rings in terms of changes.

Changing the moon to a snow/pumpkin scales to no one, for starters. And for another, in my next paragraph, I've already addressed that it's not the moon for the celestial events, so I don't understand why the counterargument assumes that it's just the moon with rings on it.

I mean, they don't have to, since the power to do the feat is within the fragments, there's no reason to assume the same power can't be used by the lunal weapons

I'm aware of what the monoliths do, but at the same time it doesn't really change the premise of the argument since the core of it is whether the scenery change is able to be physically scaled to or not. The whole basis behind your statement that Duke Fishron physically scales to the fog is because he uses these same abilities in his attacks, (which again, I'm neutral on). However that same logic does not help in this scenario because we do not see the same ability used to attack the Terrarian.

also, well, it could be teleportation tbh, though it would be very weird considering none of the Pillars is shown to just teleport stuff and the closest thing being Vortex creating portals. Also the fact that the moon returns to it's original position hints more towards them pulling ad keeping the moon closer, as if they just teleported it in the thing would just return to it's original position immidiatly since that's what it does after the pillar is destroyed, which shows the pillar are keeping it from doing do.

We don't see the Pillars pull anything either. In fact, all we see is nothing but a scene change, so if we are going off of absolutely nothing but what is shown, teleportation is unironically far more likely than pulling, and I wasn't even trying to act like teleportation was a solid fact here. Also, once again, you are referring to those celestial bodies as the moon. I think I need to reiterate that I claimed the backgrounds for the pillars are not the moon. I've statement my explanations of why I think they aren't the moon, I'd appreciate it if you would at least counter those statements if you're going to continue to refer to them as the moon.

 

[Overlord775]

Changing the moon to a snow/pumpkin scales to no one, for starters. And for another, in my next paragraph, I've already addressed that it's not the moon for the celestial events, so I don't understand why the counterargument assumes that it's just the moon with rings on it.

it's ot for scaling purposes, but to show how radically the moo is changed in other moon-based event, which shows that the moon looking different doesn't matter

I'm aware of what the monoliths do, but at the same time it doesn't really change the premise of the argument since the core of it is whether the scenery change is able to be physically scaled to or not. The whole basis behind your statement that Duke Fishron physically scales to the fog is because he uses these same abilities in his attacks, (which again, I'm neutral on). However that same logic does not help in this scenario because we do not see the same ability used to attack the Terrarian.

We don't need to

Pillar have the AP/power to do that feat ---> Pillar drop fragmets ----> Fragments can be used to create the Monoliths

= The power used to make the feat is in the Fragmets themselves

We don't see the Pillars pull anything either.

Well, we see them pulling themselves above ground tecnically

In fact, all we see is nothing but a scene change, so if we are going off of absolutely nothing but what is shown, teleportation is unironically far more likely than pulling, and I wasn't even trying to act like teleportation was a solid fact here. Also, once again, you are referring to those celestial bodies as the moon. I think I need to reiterate that I claimed the backgrounds for the pillars are not the moon. I've statement my explanations of why I think they aren't the moon, I'd appreciate it if you would at least counter those statements if you're going to continue to refer to them as the moon.

Explain me why the moon would teleport back then when the pillar is destroyed then.

also, the event is litterally called the LUNAR Event, as swell as the fact that them being planets is ever mentioned as far as i know, and the fact the Moonlord was sealed on the Moon, very much points that it's the moon.