Sword Art Online CRT: The AP Revertion

[DMUA]

Yeah, they go down the exact same way. That's yet another piece of evidence.

... That said, we're going round in circles, and I'm pretty sure all the supporters have been given the opportunity to make their statements. This can be closed at the leisure of whatever Discussion mod comes by.

I already made the ability additions.

 

[RitsuØ1]

I have a question
The fight with the abyssal horror in the anime is the same as the novel right?

There seems to be no shaking whatsoever in the anime

Check my Blog GIF

 

[DMUA]

The gif has space around them shaking. As per the universe as large, absolutely not.

 

[RitsuØ1]

Why are we using anime again?

 

[DMUA]

Because it's a visual representation of what happens, and doesn't contradict the light novel.

Or at least, doesn't contradict it if you don't try to drastically wank it out of proportion.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Cause the Anime is a good point of reference since it visualizes the text

Text can easily be just hyperbole

 

[Jaften]

Physical space could be shaking, but it would only need to be very local for it to make sense for the observers to say "it's like everything is shaking". This would obviously contradict both tier 6 and tier 4, and would be an unquantifiable feat without a concrete range on the shaking. It's far more likely for the shaking to be local than the entire world and universe undergoing quakes and the literal worlds-shaking events not being mentioned by anybody else anywhere later on.

 

[Kaantantr]

Why are we using anime again?

Uses the anime in an attempt to support his point.

Asks why people are using the anime when they tell you what's happening visually in his own reference material.

Why is this so similar to you using Defan's Fan Translation and then the moment it's brought up how Defan clarified his translation that you are citing, you go around looking for a new translator? Oh, because it is the exact same thing. It's because you are trying to grasp at straws, ignoring every other evidence and proof brought against you. Stop doing it. It's not fun for any of us trying to explain basic concepts. I can't imagine it would be fun for you either, constantly being the target of condescending remarks by others trying to explain said basic concepts.

 

[DastardlyDangerousDracoga]

Very surprised you didn't leave at this point.

 

[Kaantantr]

Why would I leave? The only reason I'm here is to time and time again refute the misconceptions that come up. Why do you keep insinuating that I leave? If you have a problem, say so. If you don't, please do not insinuate I should leave.

 

[DMUA]

Honestly I don't know who he's referring to, but either way it's a sign we're probably going overboard.

Let's just wait for the thread to get closed, alright?

 

[Joycap]

I mean I agree that the nerfs from 4-A are warranted if there is a bunch of faff around translations and Reki's author intent (translations that I am in no position to comment on because I don't speak Japanese), but I think Tier 7 / City level is a bit too strict of a nerf. Night Sky effectively had the range of the underworld, but what that entails (unless I truly haven't been paying attention) is out for debate, and even considering SAO's historical lack of god tiers, I don't think it makes sense for Gabriel to be a threat to just the towns / cities in question knowing what he became, and that Reki has specified the size of the celestial bodies within said skybox to be comparable to our own, at least as far as Cardinal is reasonably concerned. 6-A / Mutil-continental seems more reasonable to me, because it entailed the Human Realm, the entire dark territory, and it's respective buffers.

Also enough with the whole 'shaking' shit. Refer to my earlier camera meme if you're that convinced.

Uses the anime in an attempt to support his point.

Asks why people are using the anime when they tell you what's happening visually in his own reference material.

But yeah ngl I was thinking the same thing.

 

[DMUA]

6-A / Mutil-continental seems more reasonable to me, because it entailed the Human Realm, the entire dark territory, and it's respective buffers.

Covering a continent in darkness takes far less energy than destroying it. My calculation proves as much.

 

[Cyberblader90]

I hate discussing anti-feats in general but I think it's relevant here.
Wasn't the abyssal horror grievously wounded by the meteor summoned by Asuna?

 

[RitsuØ1]

I hate discussing anti-feats in general but I think it's relevant here.
Wasn't the abyssal horror grievously wounded by the meteor summoned by Asuna?

Yes

 

[DMUA]

I mean, in general, we do assume that attacks scale to the people who throw them

But on the other hand that makes way more sense if they're just Tier 7 and thus an inherently Tier 7 projectile can punch straight through them

 

[Kaantantr]

I hate discussing anti-feats in general but I think it's relevant here.
Wasn't the abyssal horror grievously wounded by the meteor summoned by Asuna?

Kirito and Asuna's attacks plummeted its HP to the point where its "running away" mechanic activated. But Alice finished the little things before any of them could actually run away.

It is just a boss monster with game mechanics. So looking at the physicality of the attacks don't make much sense. If one can dodge its attacks reliably, they can chunk away at it for a long time with basic stuff and it will eventually break into pieces and start running away.

 

[Joycap]

Covering a continent in darkness takes far less energy than destroying it. My calculation proves as much.

That's as maybe, but that's still what Kirito was drawing power from (and/or it's inhabitants at least). And I think it's a smidgen anachronistic to say city-busting is all Kirito/Gabriel is capable of at their peak knowing Gabriel's general personality.
Although... you could make the argument that Kirito saying "I have to spend 200 years here if I fail" means that's he's somehow confident that Gabriel doesn't have as much power beyond their fight.

I hate discussing anti-feats in general but I think it's relevant here.
Wasn't the abyssal horror grievously wounded by the meteor summoned by Asuna?

I think either way it's kinda irrelevant when Asuna's (or rather, Stacia Superuser account) terrain manipulation casually cut AH in half, and what forced it into retreat where Alice got honours for the kill (if we're saying the lengths of that ability are the reason AH is not planetary, I can see that).

Kirito and Asuna's attacked plummeted its HP into the point where its "running away" mechanic activated. But Alice finished the little things before any of them could actually run away.

It is just a boss monster with game mechanics. So looking at the physicality of the attacks don't make much sense. If one can dodge its attacks reliably, they can chunk away at it for a long time with basic stuff and it will eventually break into pieces and start running away.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the use of Cardinal's game mechanics only used as a foundation of the Alicization project in general? By that same logic, would stuff like the "fake beta" red soldiers that, at PoH's behest, were trying to kill everyone involved; areas generated by Cardinal in general etc. not be beholden to the feats that we're trying to calculate? And if it's an easier question to answer: what spawned Abyssal Horror, and why?

 

[DMUA]

That's as maybe

No, that is a certainty.

I think either way it's kinda irrelevant when Asuna's (or rather, Stacia Superuser account) terrain manipulation casually cut AH in half, and what forced it into retreat where Alice got honours for the kill (if we're saying the lengths of that ability are the reason AH is not planetary, I can see that).

No, it was a meteor being thrown at it. Asuna's terrain manipulation's best feat outside of scaling to people is 7-C from creating a ravine.

And I think it's a smidgen anachronistic to say city-busting is all Kirito/Gabriel is capable of at their peak knowing Gabriel's general personality.

Why is personality an indication of tier? Sure, you can definitely argue they'd be way higher (I was half a mind to have Kirito's empowered by the world key go up to 7-A, but, the goddesses he drew power from were all pretty weakened from the fights they already had and the underworld at large's inhabitants aren't nearly that strong, so)

 

[Kaantantr]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the use of Cardinal's game mechanics only used as a foundation of the Alicization project in general? By that same logic, would stuff like the "fake beta" red soldiers that, at PoH's behest, were trying to kill everyone involved; areas generated by Cardinal in general etc. not be beholden to the feats that we're trying to calculate? And if it's an easier question to answer: what spawned Abyssal Horror, and why?

I do not understand what the exact question is, especially considering how irrelevant the Red Knights are given the context.

Abyssal Horror is just a named monster, a field boss. Same as you'll regularly find in SAO, ALO, GGO, Asuka Empire and plenty of other games. They are automatically generated by Cardinal maintaining the game world with content.

 

[Joycap]

Why is personality an indication of tier? Sure, you can definitely argue they'd be way higher (I was half a mind to have Kirito's empowered by the world key go up to 7-A, but, the goddesses he drew power from were all pretty weakened from the fights they already had and the underworld at large's inhabitants aren't nearly that strong, so)

Question: what evidence do we have that the state of what Kirito was drawing from (in this case, the goddesses and the inhabitants) affected the levels of power that Kirito was able to receive when cloaking the Night Sky? Because if that is true, than it could bump him up or down a sub-tier depending on the nature of those variables (and in a VS context, there's no guarantee he'd have access to this).

I do not understand what the exact question is, especially considering how irrelevant the Red Knights are given the context.

Abyssal Horror is just a named monster, a field boss. Same as you'll regularly find in SAO, ALO, GGO, Asuka Empire and plenty of other games. They are automatically generated by Cardinal maintaining the game world with content.

What I'm trying to ask is: what is the main distinction between HP bars and actual observable strength feats that invalidates their status as something that could be used in this discussion? Or, put more simply: "how did that city-level explosion not wipe an entire heath bar if there IS a distinction between the two?"

 

[DMUA]

Question: what evidence do we have that the state of what Kirito was drawing from (in this case, the goddesses and the inhabitants) affected the levels of power that Kirito was able to receive when cloaking the Night Sky? Because if that is true, than it could bump him up or down a sub-tier depending on the nature of those variables (and in a VS context, there's no guarantee he'd have access to this).

Because it's a bit harder to use incarnation when you're beaten into the ground to the point you take a second to process the sky turning into night within a moment

 

[Kaantantr]

What I'm trying to ask is: what is the main distinction between HP bars and actual observable strength feats that invalidates their status as something that could be used in this discussion? Or, put more simply: "how did that city-level explosion not wipe an entire heath bar if there IS a distinction between the two?"

There is no distinction. An HP bar is simply an implementation of a health value. I was just casually using it as the life value in the case of Alicization, since there are no HP bars in Underworld, just health stat without a UI. You can of course see a HP bar in your Stacia window, but if I was being literal, it would mean an actual UI featuring a green or red bar with your HP levels.

As for your second question, not sure what you are trying to say... Should we downgrade the attack too? In the end, Underworld uses game mechanics. If the impact of the meteor impact is not strong enough, it will not wipe out the entire health of the thing. And even if it is, that's why I made the reference of the run-away mechanic. Chances are, from a system perspective, it either activates on a health threshold and converts the boss into multiple small ones (nullifying the excess damage because the mechanic must play out), or simply converts upon losing all HP as a new entity that aims to run away, and simply converts it back after a while of not being attacked.

In Underworld, everyone talks from an Underworld point of view. But thinking about these things, you gotta think of it as the game it is. These are basic game concepts that Project Alicization functions upon.

A simple example would be that I can use a Novabomb in Destiny with my Warlock, my Super Attack that charges up every 10 minutes. But if my level is too low, it won't even scratch the enemy. Video games do have a massive discrepancy between their visual concepts and what they actually do. A visual effect must not match what is actually happening.

 

[Joycap]

Because it's a bit harder to use incarnation when you're beaten into the ground to the point you take a second to process the sky turning into night within a moment

And what other uses of Incarnation have their been other than the Night Sky Sword to prove this?

 

[DMUA]

... the mechanics of the ability

Incarnation is based on using willpower to bend reality, which was fed to Kirito. If you were to be barely conscious after a brutal battle, how much willpower would you have?

Much less than normal, to be sure.

 

[Joycap]

There is no distinction. An HP bar is simply an implementation of a health value. I was just casually using it as the life value in the case of Alicization, since there are no HP bars in Underworld, just health stat without a UI. You can of course see a HP bar in your Stacia window, but if I was being literal, it would mean an actual UI featuring a green or red bar with your HP levels.

As for your second question, not sure what you are trying to say... Should we downgrade the attack too? In the end, Underworld uses game mechanics. If the impact of the meteor impact is not strong enough, it will not wipe out the entire health of the thing. And even if it is, that's why I made the reference of the run-away mechanic. Chances are, from a system perspective, it either activates on a health threshold and converts the boss into multiple small ones (nullifying the excess damage because the mechanic must play out), or simply converts upon losing all HP as a new entity that aims to run away, and simply converts it back after a while of not being attacked.

Q1) Right, because the way you worded this:

It is just a boss monster with game mechanics. So looking at the physicality of the attacks don't make much sense. If one can dodge its attacks reliably, they can chunk away at it for a long time with basic stuff and it will eventually break into pieces and start running away.

-made it sound as though AH as a factor of any (strength / speed / defence) was completely invalid (if that wasn't your intention, my apologies). If something like this has no attack potency value, because it's beholden to in-game mechanics, the entire verse goes ****-up. And before you bring up leveling discrepancies, I agree with that much (I mean it was one of the first things bought up in the Aincrad arc for gods sake). I guess a better question is "what part of the Cardinal System allows a city-level explosion to actually go off if it's mechanics never intended for an event like this to happen?"

Q2) "Should we downgrade that attack too?" Idk, you tell me. By what you're saying, that explosive yield doesn't have a HP damage cap / defined value, and that may or may not be the only reason Kirito was able to survive the attack.

And as for this 'run away' mechanic, I couldn't really care what it is (unless you're bringing it up as a distinction between feats we can take literally and stuff that was survived due to game mechanics). AbHor could be doing the default dance for all I care, doesn't change the fact that all 3 contributed to it's death, Asuna defeating the main form we see (you and others in this thread said it was a Meteor, which A) has it's own implications depending on what kind, and B) I seem to recall it being terrain manipulation (but this was based on the anime, which seems contentious enough around here)), and Alice getting honours for finishing off the parts that tried to leg it.

... the mechanics of the ability

Incarnation is based on using willpower to bend reality, which was fed to Kirito. If you were to be barely conscious after a brutal battle, how much willpower would you have?

Much less than normal, to be sure.

No I mean, who else do we have visual conformation that have used the ability in different ways to Kirito, and in what circumstances?

 

[Cyberblader90]

https://vsbattles.com/threads/official-translations-requests-thread-new-forum.107531/post-3857121

So I had the immediate questions that resulted in the author answers requested for translation. I'm curious if you would consider these "loaded"or not.

 

[Kaantantr]

-made it sound as though AH as a factor of any (strength / speed / defence) was completely invalid (if that wasn't your intention, my apologies).

I was just simplifying the circumstances for illustration purposes. If you can dodge all of your enemies attacks and land all of yours no matter how powerless you are, as long as there is no life regen happening, you will eventually get the job done. That is what Kirito, as well as plenty of other players did in SAO early on. Fought monsters way above their power levels to level up fast. A normal player would tackle the boars outside of the Town of Beginnings. Kirito went straight for the woods near Horunka Village to fight Nepenthes monsters way above his level with starter gear, confident in his ability to dodge them reliably.

If something like this has no attack potency value, because it's beholden to in-game mechanics, the entire verse goes ****-up. And before you bring up leveling discrepancies, I agree with that much (I mean it was one of the first things bought up in the Aincrad arc for gods sake). I guess a better question is "what part of the Cardinal System allows a city-level explosion to actually go off if it's mechanics never intended for an event like this to happen?"

I think you are overthinking simple VFX. 18+ Shooter games would be much less interesting, if there was no blood spraying around as violently as it does. There is no reason for the blood to spray the way it does. But it looks cool, so it does.

Cardinal System draws inspiration from all over the internet for content, so much so that some libraries in Aincrad even has real scanned PDFs as actual books. It can certainly distinguish what is cool and what isn't.

Q2) "Should we downgrade that attack too?" Idk, you tell me. By what you're saying, that explosive yield doesn't have a HP damage cap / defined value, and that may or may not be the only reason Kirito was able to survive the attack.

I'm not saying we should. You guys are the experts in regards to power levels. But it needs to be admitted there is more than a certain level of vagueness when it comes to exact values in games. You will not be reaching any kind of exactness and that's why I believe most standards here exist. To approximate something out of nothing exactly descriptive.

I can go raiding in Destiny. I can defeat Atheon in Vault of Glass, the Time's Conflux, who according to the game has around 8 million HP. What does any of that mean? In the end, those are just arbitrary numbers and names. In the end, all I know is I defeated a monster that has the power to delete me from time and space. The moment you overthink things, that's a rabbit hole you cannot get out of in my opinion, so it's best not to. That is where most of my criticism towards powerscaling comes from too. These things are kinda meant to remain vague, and let you fill with your imagination or suspension of disbelief.

Does it make any difference whether AH has 10 million HP or 50 million HP? It doesn't, it's just an arbitrary number for you to deplete with no real meaning.

Does it matter if Asuna's meteor does 5 million damage or 10 million? It doesn't, it's just an arbitrary damage number applied to whatever health AH has, dealt via a moving projectile.

The moment you go down into this rabbit hole, it becomes very clear that it all becomes meaningless as it is just a game, working on game mechanics.

A simple, down to earth example I can give is how exhaustion works in Underworld. You simply do not get exhausted at all, since you do not actually have muscles to run out of energy from. Any signs of exhaustion you see is instinctual/human nature. But that doesn't mean you have "infinite stamina" of some sorts. After exerting yourself for longer amounts of time, your HP starts to drain instead of you feeling exhausted.

There are just so many game mechanics attached with no real equivalent to make reasonable sense of.

And as for this 'run away' mechanic, I couldn't really care what it is (unless you're bringing it up as a distinction between feats we can take literally and stuff that was survived due to game mechanics). AbHor could be doing the default dance for all I care, doesn't change the fact that all 3 contributed to it's death, Asuna defeating the main form we see (you and others in this thread said it was a Meteor, which A) has it's own implications depending on what kind, and B) I seem to recall it being terrain manipulation (but this was based on the anime, which seems contentious enough around here)), and Alice getting honours for finishing off the parts that tried to leg it.

I call it a meteor because that's what I would call a large piece of earth floating around in space. For all intents and purposes, it is a large piece of rock, yes. But yeah, I am not even sure what you want from me here, or whether you expect an answer at all.

https://vsbattles.com/threads/official-translations-requests-thread-new-forum.107531/post-3857121

So I had the immediate questions that resulted in the author answers requested for translation. I'm curious if you would consider these "loaded"or not.

Well, can't say I'm surprised at all that those are the exact same translations I have provided in the earlier thread, with the exception of me fixing Sols into Solus, a typo made by the original question. This may be getting repetitive but as I said, the translation was never the issue here. It was confirmation bias and wanting to upgrade a characters power.

 

[Antvasima]

Since the arguments here seem to have been thoroughly refuted at this point, I will close this content revisions thread. Please do not bring up the same arguments again via yet another discussion thread.