super saiyan transformations page and frieza

[HrishikeshM]

first, ultra instinct and wrath/ikari state are not technically super saiyan states but they are on the page since they are saiyan transformations at least.....then should oozaru transformation also be added to the page?

i also want to remove the statement about wrath/ikari state being as powerful as oozaru because.... it is not the exact same as oozaru as there is no tail, no great ape, no moon involved and there is no way broly could go from getting beat by super saiyan god to being equal to super saiyan blue with just 10x boost

second, we all know frieza feat of surviving broly for one hour was done for comedic purpose.....it should be outlier. there was no statement about frieza getting so strong in the movie.....he was just around blue level or he would not have to sneak up on the planet and be afraid of goku and vegeta sensing him, he could have beaten them with no problem if he was really that strong

 

[HrishikeshM]

bunp

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Frieza shows particular growth in power.

 

[HrishikeshM]

Frieza shows particular growth in power.

that is a promotion material and is wrong.....goku and vegeta are eqauls without ui and freeza did show growth in the top.....nothing like that was said in the movie

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Not during the ToP, after it. And Remember, Frieza has the power of writing on his side when he trains, he's obviously not as strong as Broly but he does have massive durability.

 

[HrishikeshM]

but the same thing was not mentioned in the movie and if he was so strong he would not have to sneak or fear the saiyans.....or use broly.....he could have squashed them and taken his revenge

 

[CryoTheMayo]

first, ultra instinct and wrath/ikari state are not technically super saiyan states but they are on the page since they are saiyan transformations at least.....then should oozaru transformation also be added to the page?

Agreed.

i also want to remove the statement about wrath/ikari state being as powerful as oozaru because.... it is not the exact same as oozaru as there is no tail, no great ape, no moon involved and there is no way broly could go from getting beat by super saiyan god to being equal to super saiyan blue with just 10x boost

Paragus stated the power was using the power of a Great Ape in human form, so it is a 10x boost. You should remember that Broly was constantly adapting and growing stronger over time. Most of his power has nothing to do with transforming.

second, we all know frieza feat of surviving broly for one hour was done for comedic purpose

Not...really? It's an integral aspect of the plot, was used for serious purposes (Frieza musing on Broly's potential) and was considered an 'amazing' feat by the narrator in the Novel (which is treated as canonical on the wiki).

it should be outlier

It's literally impossible to call anything in the film an 'outlier' pertaining to Gogeta, Broly and Frieza. You can only make this claim for Goku and Vegeta, due to them appearing in an arc that takes place after the movie. If Frieza returns and shows he isn't that strong compared to Blue Goku and Vegeta, maybe you have an argument that it's an outlier but Goku is learning to use Ultra Instinct willfully and Vegeta is trying to learn something that can push him to defeat Moro, so they will both be much stronger when Frieza returns.

You could argue, then, that it's an outlier due to feats in the ToP but...we know the Broly film takes place at least weeks after the ToP (maybe months due to Bra's hair growth). Frieza grew infinitely stronger in just four months of training, grew hundreds or thousands of times stronger by meditating for a year (matching Goku Blue's four years of training and his over 100x power increase in the Black arc). So it's not crazy to imagine Frieza simply training and getting to that high of a level again.

Overall, no evidence or reason to consider it an outlier.

there was no statement about frieza getting so strong in the movie

Goku trusted Frieza to distract Broly for at least a few minutes.

Vegeta is afraid of Frieza's potential for growth, choosing to actively train to prepare for it.

We have statements of Frieza's 'growth' and that Vegeta is lagging behind Goku considerably.

The only time Frieza shows his actual power, in the entire film, is when he is fighting Broly. Goku and Vegeta were both damaged and exhausted, focused on learning the Fusion Dance. The only one who would comment on Frieza's power is Gogeta, and he's so powerful that Frieza would be a little ant to destroy.

he was just around blue level or he would not have to sneak up on the planet and be afraid of goku and vegeta sensing him

1. Goku and Vegeta were both destroyed by Broly with extreme ease in under a minute. Frieza handled him for over an hour.

2. Frieza doesn't know if Goku can use Ultra Instinct willfully and should be fully aware of Blue Evolution (which exists in the anime and manga)

3. Beerus and Whis are constantly on-planet, and Frieza runs the risk of insulting Beerus if he comes in at the wrong time.

4. Frieza didn't display fear against them even once. He even specified that he wanted to handle Goku's demise when he met Paragus and Broly. Frieza was incredibly confident and calm the entire film (outside of Broly attacking him). The only time that Frieza even comes close to being 'afraid' of them is when, after seeing Gogeta, he decides he needs an ally to help him against the Goku & Vegeta duo.

he could have beaten them with no problem if he was really that strong

As I already said, Frieza has no clue if Goku can go Ultra Instinct willfully after mastering the power in the Tournament of Power. He should also be aware of Blue Evolution (which is in the anime and manga). Goku also has Kaio-Ken Blue in both anime and manga (In the manga it was referred to as being very similar to Kaio-Ken in principle and amplified Goku's power massively).

SSBE Vegeta + UI Goku would most likely be too much for Frieza. Even SSBE Vegeta + SSBKK Goku would prove potentially dangerous to him.

As of the Broly film, he should now know that Goku can't use even -Sign- at will, meaning he has to only contend with SSBKK Goku and SSBE Vegeta. But by the end of the film, he knows there is also the potential for Gogeta to ruin his day.

Frieza is likely over half of SS Broly's power (which is around 40-50x Goku Blue). So Golden Frieza is arguably stronger than X20 Goku Blue but X20 Goku Blue + SSBE Vegeta may still be capable of overwhelming him together, he didn't know if Goku could use Ultra Instinct willfully yet and he now knows about Fusion and its supreme power.

Overall, Frieza was unaware of the extent of their powers and, now that he does, he has to worry about the existence of Fusion.

Also, Frieza is able to defeat them with no problem. It's outright stated, in the film itself, that Frieza could just blow up the Earth at any time and kill them with ease. The reason he doesn't just kill them is due to it 'not being fun' (from Frieza himself). He wants to crush Goku, completely and utterly, in a 1v1 match. He doesn't care even slightly about Vegeta (and never has).

tl;dr Frieza doesn't care about Vegeta, he only wants to kill Goku in a 1v1 match. He didn't know if Goku could use Ultra Instinct, he now likely realises that Goku can't but is now concerned regarding Vegeta and Fusion. He wants a partner by the end of the film to help him deal with Goku AND Vegeta so he can kill Goku himself.

 

[The_Unknown_Warrior1]

Not to say it means Frieza is as strong, but since the novel is apperantly cannon on here wasn't it stated in the novel that Golden Frieza's full powered blows were forcing Ssj Broly to dodge his blows?

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Yes, over half an hour into the fight it was stated that Frieza's attacks slowed Broly down and that his strongest punches caused Broly to dodge instead of taking them, implying that Frieza can actually hurt Broly.

Note: In Dragon Ball, you become weaker the less stamina you have and the more damaged you are. So if Frieza was doing this after fighting Broly for over half an hour, it probably means he was doing much better earlier when he was in a better condition. When Frieza first went Golden, he displayed confidence in his ability to handle Broly and even knocked Broly away by dozens of meters when he transformed.

The overall implication is that Frieza was very likely to have done quite well in the first 30 minutes of their fight but began to be ineffective due to exhaustion and damage. The narrator even monologues that Broly has 'seemingly endless stamina' and that his power wasn't even slightly decreasing, whereas Frieza was completely drained of all his stamina by the end of their fight.

 

[The_Unknown_Warrior1]

So it makes sense for him to still be on, if not above based off his fight with Broly, current SSB level

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Most likely higher. Broly had no issues with ragdolling Goku and beating him to the point of nearly being unable to get up, yet Frieza endured Broly for over an hour. If we look at the fight that Broly had with Goku and Vegeta, he didn't dodge or block a single one of their attacks. He even simply chose to blast through their Galick Kamehameha instead of simply dodging it (but the fact that he created two blasts to protect him would show their combined attack would have likely hurt Broly). we also see Broly outright take both of their blows from behind, and only be budged a bit (the novel describes Frieza's attacks budging Broly slightly).

Ultimately, Goku and Vegeta only fought Broly for a few minutes each at the maximum (time dilation means it was likely shorter) and their combined assault lasted less than a minute and left them exhausted, collapsing on the ground briefly when they escaped.

Basically, Frieza has feats akin to Goku and Vegeta combined when he was likely exhausted and damaged after half an hour of fighting an enraged Broly and was likely much stronger than that at the start of the fight. He seems to scale to a level much higher than Goku or Vegeta Blue and is probably over half of Broly's power (considering one-sided stomps usually take less than a 2x gap in Dragon Ball).

 

[HrishikeshM]

there is no fixed number for one sided stomp.....don't know where you get it from

i am not convinced about broly wrathful/ikari state.....the modes and mechanism of aceiving the power up are very different. oozaru transformation is a full blown transformation which happens after absorbing moon wave into the body by the tail.....and ikari does not need moon or tail, it is not a giant transformation and no moon wave is required....the power comes from a state of rage

obviously they are quite different and it is easy to say that ikari utilizes the oozaru power far more than oozaru transformation.....hence it provides so much boost......broly went from around ssj vegeta level to above ssg vegeta as soon as he transformed.....there was no growth of his own during that time just his ikari state

 

[CryoTheMayo]

there is no fixed number for one sided stomp.....don't know where you get it from

I didn't mention a fixed number for a 'one sided stomp'. I stated that stomps in Dragon Ball are generally with a less than 2x difference. It has varied in the writing but has most consistently occurred around that range.

i am not convinced about broly wrathful/ikari state.....the modes and mechanism of aceiving the power up are very different.

We don't even know how Broly unlocked the state, what are you talking about?

and ikari does not need moon or tail, it is not a giant transformation and no moon wave is required....the power comes from a state of rage

We don't even know where Broly achieved the power though. Paragus is aware of the state and has actively tried to prevent it from triggering. There is nothing indicating that it's 'rage' induced other than maybe the name. Broly also achieved Super Saiyan but we know that Super Saiyan isn't just 'I am angry. Dye my hair blond.' It has more requirements than simple rage.

they are quite different and it is easy to say that ikari utilizes the oozaru power far more than oozaru transformation.....hence it provides so much boost.

'More' Oozaru power? How can it have 'More' Oozaru power than the Oozaru form?

.broly went from around ssj vegeta level to above ssg vegeta as soon as he transformed..

Goku, Vegeta, Gohan have all had rage boosts. Caulifa has adapted from struggling with Base Goku to pushing Goku into Super Saiyan 2 in the span of less than a minute. Vegeta outright states Broly is 'learning as he fights' and is 'growing stronger' long before using Wrath. Broly went from being overwhelmed by Base Vegeta to going toe-to-toe with (and even overpowering) Super Saiyan Vegeta in a matter of moments.

Great Ape x Rage x Saiyan adaptation x Broly mutation equating to Broly gaining a vastly greater boost than 10x is perfectly reasonable to claim.

Claiming that the form gives any more power would contradict the only authority on the form, Paragus, who stated that Wrath is using the power of Great Ape in your human form.

 

[The_Unknown_Warrior1]

Why would Paragus lie and say Ikari is using the Great Ape's power when it actually isn't? Considering he and Broly were stuck on Vampa for decades, Paragus would be the only one to understand how Broly's power works and would know if he's using his Great Ape power since he mentioned that Broly did once go into that state

 

[HrishikeshM]

what i meant to say is that he is using oozaru power but somehow the boost is much greater because he went from ssj level to ssg level just by transforming.....there was no adaptation or growth during the transformation

and freeza's reasons for low 2-c are shaky at best.....the novel is secondary to the anime and there was no incident of broly getting pushed by freeza.......pushing someone is also not ground to scaling

 

[Shubham_Sonsurkar]

And wait this movie was made by Akira toriyama and in Manga Goku never used SSB with Kaoiken and Vegeta never used SSB Evolution as in manga both of them used SSB Mastered or Ascended SSB so does that mean this movie follows the Manga and not the anime storyline?

 

[HrishikeshM]

the movie never had complte ssb so no

 

[Ionliosite]

And wait this movie was made by Akira toriyama and in Manga Goku never used SSB with Kaoiken and Vegeta never used SSB Evolution as in manga both of them used SSB Mastered or Ascended SSB so does that mean this movie follows the Manga and not the anime storyline?

The movie doesn't have the mastered SSJB on any point, so it clearly doesn't follow the manga. Word of God from Toriyama says it is a sequel to the anime.

 

[Mickey1940]

The Ultra Instinct transformation shouldn't be on the Super Saiyan page, cause it's not a saiyan-exclusive transformation

 

[Akreious]

Pretty sure this thread would've been fine dead, but alright.

Also where's this idea that power differences between characters that allow for stomps is less than 2x in Dragon Ball? Power levels that we don't use? Expecially with how exponential it seems with small increases allowing for stupidly large power differences (Jump from mountain busters to casual Moon busting).

 

[HrishikeshM]

this thread is dead just close it.....i will tell an admin to close it but i will make another separate thread for freeza not scaling to broly

 

[AKM sama]

I don't think there is any harm in adding Oozaru transformation in that page. It would just make it complete, I guess. But I'll close it now on OP's request.