Strongest 7-A Match 56 (Gufadgarn Vs. Dante)

[YungManzi]

Gufadgarn

Vs.

Dante

1) Speed is always equal, unless the two characters fighting are in the same tier of speed naturally.

2) SBA applies.

3) Most powerful/resourceful 7-A versions

Gufadgarn:

Dante:

Inconclusive:

 

[DontTalkDT]

Can Dante do something against Gufadgarn holing up in his pocket dimension and preventing Dante from ever getting inside via superior spatial manipulation?

 

[Oliver_de_jesus]

not unless Dante had the optional equipment like alastor and the DSS.

Dante probably can't get to the pocket dimension without anything

 

[00potato]

Shouldn’t he have optional equipment since this is the strongest version?

 

[YungManzi]

Shouldn’t he have optional equipment since this is the strongest version?

He does indeed have optional equipment.

 

[Oliver_de_jesus]

well he still has access to those weapons actually on the drama CD (which happens a little after the anime maybe a couple of weeks) he uses alastor for a bit

 

[Oliver_de_jesus]

Dante then realizes that his enemy is in a pocket dimension through Alastor and then proceeds to try to enter the pocket dimension with Sparda.

 

[DontTalkDT]

What does "with Sparda" mean in this context? How would it help him to enter a pocket dimension with powerful barriers against someone transferring themself inside (be it via spatial manipulation or means)?

Edit: Also I thought optional equipment isn't given unless it's necessary for the key? IIRC Van didn't get his optional equipment for that reason.

 

[Oliver_de_jesus]

Sparda/DSS

 

[DontTalkDT]

That doesn't seem to be part of the 7-A key or doesn't have Low 2-C powers in that key, given that said key has no Low 2-C AP. Only the none 7-A keys that aren't used here seem to have that sword from what I can tell.

The sword also doesn't seem to have an ability that would allow Danto to teleport into pocket realms nor has the range to affect those inside such a realm. Gufadgarn can also use spatial manipulation to take the sword away from Dante, I think?

 

[Oliver_de_jesus]

Well he has it on his house and clearly he is not going to sell it unlike some Devil Arms, besides that the low part 2-C / 3-A is when it activates the true power (Sparda Devil trigger) normally it is 7-B or higher depending on the demonic energy of its user.

I asking for that at the beginning, because he needs optional equipment to get there.

rare, in dante's profile if it appears: Dimensional Travel (With Devil Sword Sparda, Dante could escape Mundus' Dimension)

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

It's optional equipment, this key normally doesn't have it but can access to it really quick

Dante resist spatial manip from Yamato, Sparda allows him to travel outside of Mundus pocked dimension and the perfect amulet (which is part of the sword) allows him to travel to the Demon world which is its own universe/dimension.

 

[YungManzi]

That doesn't seem to be part of the 7-A key or doesn't have Low 2-C powers in that key, given that said key has no Low 2-C AP. Only the none 7-A keys that aren't used here seem to have that sword from what I can tell.

The sword also doesn't seem to have an ability that would allow Danto to teleport into pocket realms nor has the range to affect those inside such a realm. Gufadgarn can also use spatial manipulation to take the sword away from Dante, I think?

We had a previous discussion where I'm pretty sure optional equipment is allowed on the top 5, so it's allowed here I'm sure.

 

[DontTalkDT]

But if he never uses it in the animated series is it even optional equipment for it? Does having it lie around somewhere suffice?
And can he use the true power of it in that key or not? If he can't that would at least explain why he doesn't have Low 2-C listed in that key, other than in all other keys. Without the Low 2-C power the sword wouldn't be much use to Dante, though.

Dante resisting spatial manip doesn't imply that his sword can't be teleported, unless he has feats of that.

How in-character is it for Dante to use the sword against a 7-A enemy anyways?

How good is Dante's mind manip resistance?

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

>Does having it lie around somewhere suffice?

Idk, he has it in his wall behind his desk

> If he can't that would at least explain why he doesn't have Low 2-C listed in that key, other than in all other keys

He can use it, we didn't add the low 2-C key cuz it is optional and not something he has on his persona all the time

> Dante resisting spatial manip doesn't imply that his sword can't be teleported, unless he has feats of that.

Hmm, I remember that the sword is immune to Yamato effects too but not if it can stop teleport or can teleport to Dante's hand, Yamato can and depending on how the Manga goes Rebellion might be able to do it too and Sparda would scale for obvious reasons.

> How in-character is it for Dante to use the sword against a 7-A enemy anyways?

DMC1 (the one who got the sword) immediately started using it after getting it, if anime Dante has it in his person it's very likely he will use it too.

> How good is Dante's mind manip resistance?

Almost all his resistances are at planet level

 

[DontTalkDT]

Hmm, I remember that the sword is immune to Yamato effects too but not if it can stop teleport or can teleport to Dante's hand, Yamato can and depending on how the Manga goes Rebellion might be able to do it too and Sparda would scale for obvious reasons.

That sounds like for the time being teleporting it is a legitimate option.

DMC1 (the one who got the sword) immediately started using it after getting it, if anime Dante has it in his person it's very likely he will use it too.

But did he immediately use it at Low 2-C power or just at the 7-B normal power?
Also, I would say the fact that over the entire anime he didn't see the need to carry it or get it speaks against that theory. If he was intent on using it against any random enemy you would think he would bother to do exactly that.

Almost all his resistances are at planet level

Planet level is a tier not a scale of mind resistance. Mind resistance is usually measured by if you can resist mind effects that can effect people that have resistance to mind effects or, if they aren't the AoE type of effects, by how many people the mind manip can affect at once. Or other feats. But punching someone harder doesn't make your mind manip more powerful.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

> But did he immediately use it at Low 2-C power or just at the 7-B normal power?
Also, I would say the fact that over the entire anime he didn't see the need to carry it or get it speaks against that theory. If he was intent on using it against any random enemy you would think he would bother to do exactly that.

That was my point tho, dmc1 Dante immediately switched to that sword for the rest of the game (only used its true power against Mundus because it was awoken at that moment) before that it was 7-B.

My point is that anime Dante was using just rebellion and left Sparda in his house because he didn't need it (it was his everyday after all), the match allows him to have it which is pretty much a re-do of what he did in DMC1 (since he is allowed to have it on his person here after all).

> Planet level is a tier not a scale of mind resistance. Mind resistance is usually measured by if you can resist mind effects that can effect people that have resistance to mind effects or, if they aren't the AoE type of effects, by how many people the mind manip can affect at once. Or other feats. But punching someone harder doesn't make your mind manip more powerful.

I know, I know, basically the Demon world energy can affect our universe (the whole thing) but since we lack feats to say there is more life beyond our planet, we say it is planet level, because it ***** the world. Basically it can mindhax/soul hax/transmutate, etc the whole population of the world

 

[DontTalkDT]

That was my point tho, dmc1 Dante immediately switched to that sword for the rest of the game (only used its true power against Mundus because it was awoken at that moment) before that it was 7-B.

My point is that anime Dante was using just rebellion and left Sparda in his house because he didn't need it (it was his everyday after all), the match allows him to have it which is pretty much a re-do of what he did in DMC1 (since he is allowed to have it on his person here after all).

As far as he knows from the get-go this is his everyday demon-slaying as well. It's not like he is taking a walk through the city and is getting anbushed all the time in the anime. He does go out expecting fights to happen when he does a job and does actively chose not to bring that sword.
So he choses to use weaker weapons, probably because his opponents aren't on the low 2-C scale requiring that power. So, if Danto is seriously pressured he might use it, but given that at this point he only seems to use the Low 2-C version of that sword against Low 2-C opponents it's wrong to speculate on him leading with it.

I know, I know, basically the Demon world energy can affect our universe (the whole thing) but since we lack feats to say there is more life beyond our planet, we say it is planet level, because it ***** the world. Basically it can mindhax/soul hax/transmutate, etc the whole population of the world

That sounds like a case of mistaking AoE for power. It's a relatively recent revision, but we separate AoE and potency now if appropriate. If simply everyone in the area that the energy is in is affected then the number of affected beings isn't related to potency. That is just the AoE of the mind hax then.
One could make an analogy to a gas containing a psychedelic drug. With lots of the gas you can affect the minds of lots of people, but a single person only has to resist the concentration they breathe in.
Are there any other feats speaking for its potency?

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

> As far as he knows from the get-go this is his everyday demon-slaying as well...

Yeah, kinda, in the verse you can rarely see that kind of demons and most of them are sealed and/or dead and can't cross dimensions without a portal strong enough to sustain them, that's why he doesn't use it.

Now this is a different thing, if the guy starts by getting inside a pocket dimension or by BFR, Dante knows he has no answer more than to use the Sparda, which, going by your posts, will be the first thing he does, once there he doesn't know that Dante can get in or that he has a sword that allows him to get in.

The thing is, he doesn't know Dante has an item that allows him to get in/out nor he has any idea it's the sword that lets him do that.

> That sounds like a case of mistaking AoE for power. It's a relatively recent revision, but we separate AoE and potency now if appropriate. If simply everyone in the area that the energy is in is affected then the number of affected beings isn't related to potency. That is just the AoE of the mind hax then.

Well, just the same thing, range/aoe is universal and people affected are the planet population, in one novel when the bad guy managed to conquer both worlds the energy of the core was so strong it knocked out the demons (who are naturally immune to it) while Dante went out without any problem. Dunno if that would help here as that was DMC2 Dante (who funnily enough is like 1 year older than this Dante at most).

How do we calculate feats now then if affecting large populations is dropped as AoE?

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Dante's going through revisions right now. Y'all sure this is ok?

 

[YungManzi]

Dante's going through revisions right now. Y'all sure this is ok?

He is? I had no idea. I guess he can be saved for the second tourney.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

He is?

DMC Downgrade #2: Hax Edition

The 2nd thread, hopefully less chaotic this time. I will mainly be going over Dante, just cus i have only checked his profile so let's go. Volume 1 Dante 1) Deconstruction, the scan does not show dante having some sort of special bullet capable of doing this. And that is what happens to demons...

vsbattles.com

 

[DontTalkDT]

Yeah, kinda, in the verse you can rarely see that kind of demons and most of them are sealed and/or dead and can't cross dimensions without a portal strong enough to sustain them, that's why he doesn't use it.

Now this is a different thing, if the guy starts by getting inside a pocket dimension or by BFR, Dante knows he has no answer more than to use the Sparda, which, going by your posts, will be the first thing he does, once there he doesn't know that Dante can get in or that he has a sword that allows him to get in.

The thing is, he doesn't know Dante has an item that allows him to get in/out nor he has any idea it's the sword that lets him do that.

Gufadgarn doesn't start by going into a pocket dimension, Gufadgarn already is in a pocket dimension by the time the fight starts.
Dante will fight an elf looking girl that is Gufadgarns vessel and contains the entrance to the pocket dimension inside her. Opponents that fight Gufadgarn usually end up believing that he is the elf girl vessel and that this elf girl simply has insane regeneration abilities and due to that survives the attacks. In reality the vessel of course is simply not Gufadgarns actual body.

So Dante has an opponent to fight before him and at no point sees anything that would suggest that he needs to enter a pocket dimension to defeat it.

Regarding Gufadgarn not knowing the sword: Gufadgarn has shown a tendency to collect the weapons of foes. In her first dungeon he had multiple floors dedicated to storing and displaying the weapons of those he defeated. I think it’s likely she will disarm him if she gets the opportunity to do so.

How do we calculate feats now then if affecting large populations is dropped as AoE?

Affecting large populations in general isn't dropped. It just depends on how the ability works. E.g. for Shokuhou Misaki the number of people controlled is still meaningful. She manipulates mind by controlling moisture in the brain, so manipulating more people = more moisture controlled => Needs more power.
For other abilities, it is less suited. The verse Gufadgarn is from is a great example since it has several abilities which can affect any number of beings just as long as they are within range and for which we hence can't scale number of people to potency.

As for how we do things now... Well, how would you have judged the potency of poison manipulation or disease manipulation to this point?
It's largely case by case, just comparing how impressive showings there are. One of the most useful methods is to do what you basically did and say that resisting techniques that have showings of overcomming resistances is more impressive than resisting techniques which can't do that.

Well, just the same thing, range/aoe is universal and people affected are the planet population, in one novel when the bad guy managed to conquer both worlds the energy of the core was so strong it knocked out the demons (who are naturally immune to it) while Dante went out without any problem. Dunno if that would help here as that was DMC2 Dante (who funnily enough is like 1 year older than this Dante at most).

I'm obviously not knowledgable on the verse, but backwards scaling sounds questionable. It wouldn't really suffice either. Some of Gufadgarns mind techniques worked even on Vandalieu. Vandalieu has pretty impressive mind resistance. I can go in full detail when necessary, but for now it's enough to say that he at least is immune to mind manip that can effect people that are immune to mind manip that can effect people immune to mind manip.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

So SBA saying they start in the middle of a park at 4km appart from each other doesn't apply to the real body?

Dante can negg the regen of the vessel if he finds it too problematic, what happens from there on idk.

> So Dante has an opponent to fight before him and at no point sees anything that would suggest that he needs to enter a pocket dimension to defeat it.

He actually has another sword that more or less tells him an enemy is close by, good enough to predict a demon who was in a pocket/mirror dimension, granted he won't use that if he has Sparda or Rebellion aviable.

> Regarding Gufadgarn not knowing the sword: Gufadgarn has shown a tendency to collect the weapons of foes. In her first dungeon he had multiple floors dedicated to storing and displaying the weapons of those he defeated. I think it’s likely she will disarm him if she gets the opportunity to do so.

You said it yourself, store and display the weapons of those he has defeated, granted idk the verse or if she will do that first thing (in the same manner Dante wont pull the Low 2-C transformation first)

> It's largely case by case, just comparing how impressive showings there are.

I'll drop it for now then cuz doing that is a large discussion and I don't want to get onto that nor am I knowledgeable enough to dance that song.

> I'm obviously not knowledgable on the verse, but backwards scaling sounds questionable.

Oh, no no no, I'm not saying we use backward scaling, just mentioning a feat his older self did. In fact in dmc1 we get something similar, Dante gets to the center or whatever that was of the demon world where Mundus (the big bad guy) was sealed but there aren't demons around the area IIRC nor did we get any kind of narration like the novel did so I can't say it is the same thing.

Also, oof.

 

[GokuBold]

So, is the revision a problem or not?