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Street Fighter Big Revision. Part 3.5

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SamanPatou

SamanPatou

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This middle way CRT is about a recent recalc.

Basically, Ryu's Satsui no Hado energy being used to nuke a city has been recalculated from 7-B to High 7-A. (and the calc has been accepted by Ugarik)

This because, until now, the city that was assumed got destroyed was either Tokyo or Hong Kong, two prominents cities that were relevant for Street Fighter.

The new model takes in account the destruction of Bangkok, because the Psycho Drive (the weapon used to fire the laser) was located in Thailand. We know this from Dan's ending and Chun-Li's storyline.

To further support that, in Chun-Li's ending Charlie Nash states that Bison wants to destroy the capital, which is Bangkok in this case.

For the sake of transparency I want to point out that this is a USA translation choice, as in the japanese version he just mentions a generic large city or metropoly.

The fact that they are in Thailand and possibly the curvature of the laser (I'm not an expert on geometry and stuff, so I may be wrong) could still point out to the laser hitting Bangkok.

Now I leave the choice to you, since I'm fine with both ends and I don't prefer one result over another.

The characters who scale from this feat and are affected by this revision (as established here) are:
Satsui No Hado Ryu, Power of Nothingness Ryu, Evil Ryu, Kage, Dhalsim, SFV M. Bison (empowered by the action of the Black Moons), Torrent of Power Necalli, Akuma, Gen, Gouken, Oro and Oni.

I'm going to count the votes, but arguments will still be prominent.

7-B/ Destruction of Tokyo:

High 7-A/Destruction of Bangkok: 7 (BlackDarkness679, Life of King, Oleggator, Continuum19, Zephyros Omega, Jasonsith, Antvasima)

Neutral: 2 (SamanPatou, Psychomaster35)
 
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That Oni feat should most likely be remade, as it wasn't properly evaluated and Dargoo pointed at some problems. For now it's better to stick him with the upscaling, then we'll see what will come out of it.

(I know you didn't mean to use it for scaling or anything, I just wanted to say something about it).
 
So the Bangkok yield, once accepted, will be applicable to anyone stronger than base Ryu, base Ryu and Saga who can barely defeat base Ryu? Does it include Ken Masters too? Who else is included?
 
Ryu's Satsui no Hado has been used to charge the Psycho Drive, therefore the yield applies to all who scale or upscale from Satsui Ryu. Said characters are:

Satsui No Hado Ryu, Power of Nothingness Ryu, Evil Ryu, Kage, Dhalsim, SFV M. Bison (empowered by the actions of the Black Moons), Torrent of Power Necalli, Akuma, Gen, Gouken, Oro and Oni.

Unfortunately Ken is still below Satsui Ryu, and even in his Violent form he only defeated Base Bison, who's greatly inferior to Satsui Ryu (as seen in Alpha 3).

You can read the revised scaling with more details in the second part of these revisions.
 
SamanPatou said:
Ryu's Satsui no Hado has been used to charge the Psycho Drive, therefore the yield applies to all who scale or upscale from Satsui Ryu. Said characters are:

Satsui No Hado Ryu, Power of Nothingness Ryu, Evil Ryu, Kage, Dhalsim, SFV M. Bison (empowered by the actions of the Black Moons), Torrent of Power Necalli, Akuma, Gen, Gouken, Oro and Oni.

Unfortunately Ken is still below Satsui Ryu, and even in his Violent form he only defeated Base Bison, who's greatly inferior to Satsui Ryu (as seen in Alpha 3).

You can read the revised scaling with more details in the second part of these revisions.
Click to expand...
Wouldn't black moon bison already scale way above that due to being 6-C anyway, or is that getting removed
 
That is getting removed too because it's based on a wrong assumption.

6-C is the total output that all the moons together can release in terms of EMP rays.

But the problem is that M. Bison isn't powered by the Moons in that way. Psycho Power feeds on negative emotions and grows stronger from them, and the moons are intended to cause destruction around the world and then channel said emotions into Bison himself.
Always in the second thread I linked all the scans that explain this, it is said like two times by FANG and one by Kolin.

On top of that, Bison never managed to use all seven moon, as only two were detonated.

The Psycho Drive had the same purpose, gather and channel negative emotions inside Bison, fueling his Psycho Power.

SFV Bison still scales or slightly downscale from Satsui Ryu for reasons I explained in the second revision.
 
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Shouldn't Gill scale as well? He is supposed to be the officially second strongest character in the verse after Oni.
 
Officially according to what, precisely? Because I've never heard of such thing.

Sure, you can say that he is supposedly strong, but him being second only to Oni is not written anywhere I'm aware of, and in the games he actually doesn't scale directly to no one relevant.

He is even inferior to Akuma, as in SF3 he gets killed by him if you meet the criteria to reach the secret final boss. It's non-canon, but it kinda gives the idea.

Currently we were planning to scale him to base Bison for being at the very least comparable and give him a likely higher.

You can take off a higher tier for him if you look at the comics or else, but those are external sources.

Edit: I would personally be fine to scale him from this, as I believe he would be able to contend with characters on that tier, but there's no proof afaik he does.
If someone knows something relevant and legit that allows the scaling, then it's fine.
 
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Capcom released a video in which they ranked the 5 strongest characters. Oni was at the top followed by Gill, with Ingrid as an unknown at the side of the list.
 
Ok, I've watched the video (this) and it has several problems.

  • It's severely outdated, having been published in 2014, two years before the release of SFV and even more with the characters and plot-developments that came after. During those years some retcons have also been made and a lot of text-related plot stuff was added by Capcom japan via the Shadaloo Research Institute Website, the Street Fighter 30th Anniversay Collection and more. The retcons include Nash not defeating Bison in Alpha 3 and Gill being an ancient being and not a young man. This all to say that a lot of plot changes and developments have occurred after that video.
  • It's from Capcom Europe, not Capcom Japan, and that mean that it may not be the most reliable source. We even know that Capcom USA made some mistakes, like the recent Shun Goku Satsu translation error.
  • The video puts Gouken under Alpha 3 Bison, and this is totally wrong. Alpha 3 Bison, despite being powered by the Psycho Drive, was still inferior to Satsui Ryu, for Bison's own admission throghout the game and by many endings, including the canon one which features Bison being defeated by Ryu with said Hado. And Gouken is even stronger that Satsui No Hado Ryu. Gouken easily defeated Ryu while he was releasing the hado and sealed it. After that, he didn't show to be tired or wounded, and proceeded to fight Akuma.
  • That video references Capcom Fighting Evolution twice, by mentioning Akuma destroying a meteor and Ingrid, specifiying that's her CFE version, and not the Alpha 3 Max one. And CFE is obviously not canon.
  • Gill's only interaction with Akuma within canon games is about him being oneshotted by the Raging Demon, and Akuma is on par with Gouken and Oro, as he fought both and their fight didn't determine if one was significantly superior to the other.
 
Okay, so how should we scale Gill? He clearly seems to be intended to be one of the strongest characters in the verse at least,
 
He is, indeed, but we have little to no references.

He is at the very very least stronger than Juri with the Feng Shui Engine and comparable if not straight up superior to Base Bison by status and lore alone.

He is then comparable/superior to G and Urien, who easily defeated the likes of Rashid, Menat, Balrog and Charlie Nash (just to name some of the people they defeated on-screen). They are all 9-A, but that's just to solidify how Gill and the likes are definitely stronger than them. (Nash is also on par with Base Ryu, who scales above the majority of the cast)

My plan (which was also accepted in the second thread) was to put him at "At least 8-B (comparable to Base Bison), likely higher".

We'll probably have more hints in the (very) late future, but as of now he is pretty much featless both feat-wise and scaling-wise (at least in relation to strong characters, for the latter).
 
Maybe "At least 8-B, likely [the same rating as the other god-tiers]"?
 
If we have to name them directly, then I suggest a possibly, because that would be actually based on nothing, just feelings.

The only ones he could scale to are strongest Ryus (Satsui, Evil, Kage and Power of Nothingness), Dhalsim, SFV Bison and ToP Necalli, because just above them there are Akuma and his peers, who, as of now, can easily defeat Gill.
 
Okay. That is probably fine to apply then.
 
Do we need to wait for Matt and Redgrave's thoughts on the Bangkok feat?
 
I do not know. Please remind me what may be controversial regarding that.
 
Maybe they don't agree with using Bangkok, because despite the hints we don't have iron-solid proof that it was actually the city that got nuked.
 
You can check them, but I didn't find anything useful. Even in his story or in A Shadow Falls, he sends Kolin on a mission to stop Bison's plan and fulfill the prophecy, then he fights G and Urien. In SF3 he in-canon fights or at least confronts with Necro, Ibuki, Dudley and Alex.

If you mean win quotes, they shouldn't really be used for powerscaling, as they start from the assumption that each character has defeated their opponent, and by that even Dan can scale over Oni.
 
Case by case, some give certain info for the characters, dont think all of them gloat over the defeated opponent or vice versa if they lost
 
They don't all always gloat, but they still won, and their reaction depends more on the character they faced rather than their power level.

Something recurrent is characters having respect for Ryu and being afraid of Akuma, but the fact that they defeated them stays.
Chun Li in SF4 says something like this to Akuma "How did I win against such power?".
But always to Akuma, Balrog says that his punches are too light for him, that's clearly untrue.

And I'm uneasy with cherry picking only some win quotes over others, and use them for scaling.

Win quotes are good for character relationships, trivia, personality and even powers or skill depending on the time, but powerscaling is something really unreliable.
 
BlackDarkness679 said:
Chun li one sorta confirms she normally wouldnt win against someone on Akuma league given she is questioning her win
Click to expand...
Yeah, but she still won and I can find many other characters bloating over Akuma.

Gill himself talks abou he's going to destroy Akuma and Oro's senjutsu is useless, that doesn't make him superior to them.
By that, literally all characters are both stronger and weaker than each other.

It's not even just sense of judgement, everyone can check those quotes and see by themselves what the characters say and how they talk about them being stronger than others.
 
Only option then is to recheck the scaling, maybe Gill has something more then that somewhere to be found that could tie to his scaling
 
Until now, in all these threads I said everything I could think of about him.

He scales to G and Urien, who are superior to Nash, Menat, C. Viper, Balrog, Kolin and Rashid. Urien has also fought Chun-Li in SF3.
Gill in SF3 has fought/confronted Necro, Alex, Dudley and Ibuki.

G and Urien also don't have much, basically nothing.

All of these people are low/low-mid tier.
His only in-game interaction with Akuma was him being killed, so it's not useful.

In the story mode he doesn't do anything, besides plotting behind the scenes, and only talks about how Ryu defeating Bison was against what was written in the ancient prophecy he follows.

Gill's profile on the Shadaloo CRI says nothing and he doesn't even have a profile in the 30th Anniversary Collection.

Perhaps there's something in some old and forgotten SF3 guide, but good luck finding it, if it exists.
The novels, the websites (Capcom Unity or the official one), other stories and stuff (like his introduction trailer) nothing talks about his strength.

I really can't think of anything else, honestly.

There's his sea-splitting feat for which I requested a calc, but that has no reason to scale to his physical blows or special attacks, it's telekinesis/water manipulation and environmental destruction.
 
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