Street Fighter Big CRT Part 5: The Last I Promise

[SamanPatou]

Well then, we are not over yet, but luckily this time it's all about small and (likely) uncontroversial stuff I forgot along the way or that came up in the meanwhile.

Ryu

• Ryu's second key (SF 2-4) should have an additional "At least 8-B via Awakened Power", as he managed to oneshot Seth when he tapped into the Power of Nothingness
• Ryu's third key might lose the 9-A base form, as it was made me notice, he could fight and defeat Torrent of Power Necalli even before showing the white aura, most likely because he has mastered the Power of Nothingness which is now always active, just like Gouken and Akuma do (the latter with the Satsui) without requiring a transformation or to turn it on. This isn't even contradicted by anything, after that Ryu only faced the powered up M. Bison, Ken in a friendly match (which Ryu won) and Kage, which is somewhat equal to him.

Lifting Strength of some characters

Currently the following characters have Class 100 lifting strength scaling to Base Ryu, either for being comparable or stronger: Ken, Sagat, M. Bison (key 1 and 2), Rose, Seth, Juri, Nash Gill and Urien.

Since Ryu performed the feat in SF3, which takes place after SFV, it means that he was already in possession of the Power of Nothingness that grants him power. For this reason, if it is accepted that he no longer has a "base form" from SFV onwards, the previously mentioned characters don't scale to him anymore, as they are far weaker than him. (Urien and Gill only if one of the next proposals goes through)

They would now go to Class 5, as they are only either at least comparable or superior to Zangief.


Akuma

There is no reason for Akuma to have two keys, for his base and for Shin Akuma. The Shin form is just a power boost, which doesn't make him breach into another tier nor grants him any new power. This second key should just be replaced with an "Higher as Shin Akuma" next to his first key.


Satsui no Hado and Corruption

This is written on some profiles, like Oni and Akuma, but not others, and we must decide if give it to all the Satsui no Hado users or remove it entirely.

The thing comes from Sagat's SFV story, where the Satsui no Hado tries to take him over. This was interpred by some people as Ryu spreading his Satsui into him when he delivered his Satsui-empowered Shoryuken back in SF1. The Satsui spreading itself is a bit shady, not only because there isn't an explanation to why Sagat has been tempted by the Satsui, but also because there's a gap of something like 10 years or so between SF1 and 5, and Sagat already went over his grudge towards Ryu in Alpha 3. Add that this thing hasn't happened again nor we have any other hint to fighters being able to spread the Satsui on others, despite them having injured many people who then survived, like Gouken, Gen and Bison (although he changed body).

Now we can either give this supposed corruption that takes years to manifest to every Satsui user (Akuma, Oni, Ryu, Evil Ryu and perhaps even Oro) or we remove it entirely.
Personally, I think it's best to remove it. After all, the Satsui is the surge of murderous intent, which can be used even by those who don't employ the Ansatsuken style (see Oro) and might perfectly attack everyone who give all of himself to the fight, just like Sagat.


Gill and Urien's High 7-A

On the 3.5 revision it was agreed to give Gill and Urien the High 7-A rating. However, it was asked me to make another revision about it. This because there really isn't anything to suggest they are comparable to the characters to who they currently scale, other than something like "They are strong characters so they must be at least comparable to the top tiers", which is a very weak reason to give someone a tier. Gill and Urien, as said in the other thread, don't have any relationship to any particularly strong character, them being High 7-A is literally based on nothing. Funnily enough, in the meantime Rose has been introduced in the games, and G now scales to her because the two seemingly fought on par. Gill also scales to G, as the two are also somewhat even, with Gill possibly being even stronger, and all of this makes Gill's "base 8-B tier" more solid.

In short, the proposal is to remove the High 7-A rating from them and leave the "8-B, likely Higher".


Gill's Regeneration

Currently Gill has low-mid regeneration for no real reason, most likely because of his Resurrection technique. However, the technique only consists in him getting up after having been knocked out, and it also occurs in several SF3 endings, when he uses it after the credits (including those where he gets killed by Akuma).

As we don't really know from what he can regenerate, I think he shouldn't have a level of regeneration at all, as it is based on literally nothing. Death can occur for having deep wounds as well as being cut to pieces or entirely vaporized, there's no a standard level of damage he can overcome with that technique.

Resurrection itself as a power is good, but Regeneration should just be replaced with Healing.


Evil Ryu

Evil Ryu is basically a counterpart of SF4 Ryu, and as such he has some of the powers his normal self had up to that point, he just misses Resistance to Mind Manipulation, which comes from Alpha Ryu, which means Evil Ryu should haveit too.


Cammy

Cammy should have two keys, one for her "Killer Bee" persona and the other for her classic self. As can be seen from her Alpha 3 storyline, Killer Bee Cammy has an entirely different way of thinking, acting more like a robot and having headaches and identity problems at times due to the brainwashing slowly fading away.

She also should have Information Analysis, as she is programmed to retrieve fighting data of her opponents and bring them to Shadaloo (it can be seen in the video above) and an 8-B rating via Psycho Streak, because it allows her to summon M. Bison.


Guile

He should have Weapon and Vehicular Mastery for being a soldier, especially a Major of the Air Force. He is also seen driving a jet plane alongside Cammy (I don't know if she should have Vehicular Mastery too)


Charlie Nash

He should have Weapon Mastery for being a trained soldier, that's it.


Zangief

He should have Body Control because his first and second V-Skill make him sturdier, marked by his Muscles becoming red.


Fang

He should have Natural Weaponry because he possesses extremely sharp nails he uses to slash and inject poison into the opponents, it can be seen in anything related to him.


M. Bison

His second key should have a + next to his City Block rating. The calc itself is already close to having the + sign, and Bison already upscales from it. His Psycho Drive key should be well into that.


Oni

Oni should have a + as well. He is at the top of this scaling chain "Oni > Shin Akuma > Akuma >> SFV Ryu > Alpha 3 Satsui Ryu" with the latter being the one who performed the feat. Between the lowest and highest end of High 7-A there's just a 4x difference, I think it's safe to give Oni the plus sign for being at the top of that chain.

Rolento

He should have Afterimage Creation, as he can produce them both in Final Fight and Final Fight 2. He is the only character in the game able to make them, so it's also exclusive to him.


Guy

He should have Chi Manipulation because in Final Fight 3 he can release a small burst of Chi (he also does that as a special move)

 

[SamanPatou]

Bump

 

[Oleggator]

Tbh I understand you when you think you ended everything but you forgot something.

Agree with op although.

 

[SamanPatou]

Bump

 

[Zencha9]

Yeah everything looks good

 

[AkumaNoHissatsu]

Seems fine to akuma

It just power boost

 

[SamanPatou]

I just realized that taking away Ryu's 9-A key means that his lifting strength feat wouldn't scale anymore to Ken, Sagat, M. Bison (key 1 and 2), Rose, Seth, Juri, Nash Gill and Urien (the latter two if the downgrade is accepted).
These characters would just go down to Class 5 for being comparable or stronger than Zangief.

I will add it to the op.

 

[Continuum19]

I remember having this discussion with Dark649 way back when I managed to get Base Ryu (and all of the characters who scale to him) upgraded to Class 100.

I asked Dark to provide me solid evidence that Ryu uses Mu No Ken continuously and he couldn’t do so.

What proof do you have that Ryu can do that Saman?

If Ryu is capable of what you say than he shouldn’t even need to power up with the white glow to begin with.

I personally think it’s more reasonable that Ryu’s special training made his base state powerful enough to fight on par with Torrent of Power Necalli.

I acknowledge that Gouken can likely use Mu No Ken without the glow but just because he can doesn’t mean Ryu can do the same.

 

[SamanPatou]

I had the same question, actually, that's the reason why I pushed for giving him a base form back in the second CRT.

But at the end of the day it doesn't change that much, Base Ryu would still be High 7-A, with the Power of Nothingness giving him an "higher" and the scaling chain stays what it currently is anyway, Post-Training Ryu didn't fight seriously anyone besides Kage, Powered-up M. Bison and Akuma.

 

[Continuum19]

So you’re saying that Ken, Sagat and Bison are remaining Class 100 correct?

Or am I misunderstanding you?

 

[SamanPatou]

No, they don't scale to Post-Training Ryu, only Powered-up Bison, as he fought that Ryu.

Basically only High 7-A characters would keep Class 100, because the point is that, in order to have that level of LS, you have to scale to the Ryu who performed the feat.

It doesn't matter if Ryu was in base or powered up, as long as a High 7-A did that, only those who scale to him in a way or another have Class 100.

Ken only fought Ryu in a friendly match that he even lost, Sagat only fought Ryu in a memory/imagination thing, possibly not even "seriously", but it's not enough to scale any of them.

Bison's first two keys are the same, they are notably weaker than High 7-A, so they don't scale.

Btw, I was thinking about Ryu needing to show the glow to be in a PoN form, but he doesn't have it when fighting Bison (just when he fires the Hadoken), but he is surely using the PoN in that moment.

 

[Continuum19]

I’m fine with Sagat and Bison getting downgraded but not Ken.

Just because he doesn’t scale to High 7-A doesn’t mean he can’t scale to Class 100.

I think the fact the Ken can fight SF3 Ryu without getting clobbered (like Alex did) is enough for him to scale but that’s just me.

My personal interpretation of that scene is that that Ryu’s special training made his base state powerful enough to take on Black Moon Bison and he used Mu No Ken to finish him off.

I personally believe that’s what happened in Ryu’s second fight with Necalli as well.

Unless you have solid evidence that Ryu is continually using Mu No Ken in base form I think my interpretation is better.

 

[SamanPatou]

Alex got absolutely curbstomped, he couldn't hold a candle to Ryu.

And even Ken had a friendly match with Ryu, we don't even know how the match went, the only thing we know is that they fought, as they did for all their life.

Ryu fights other characters throughout the entire without brutally murdering them, even if he is stronger than them, but it doesn't mean they scale.

I understand your interpretation, but it doesn't make sense for Ryu to get a new power but using it only to further finish battles he had already won.

That claim actually requires more evidences rather than Ryu having become strong "all-round" with the Mu no Ken and being able to use it without having the aura pouring out, just like other characters do, meaning that it's not even something strange for the verse.

 

[Continuum19]

Ken has been a consistent rival throughout the SF canon (including the game where the boulder feat took place) so I personally think it’s reasonable to assume his strength is comparable to Ryu’s.

We’ll have to agree to disagree on whether or not SF3 Ken scales to SF3 Ryu’s boulder feat.

Ryu needed to use Mu No Ken to break down Bison’s body and seal away his power during that fight so that seems like a reasonable explanation as to why he only visibly used said power at the end of the battle.

Why he’d only use Mu No Ken at the end of his second fight against Necalli is a bit strange since he’d already beaten him but the burden of proof is on you to prove that Ryu continuously uses Mu No Ken in his base form dude.

 

[SamanPatou]

Ken being a consistent rival doesn't mean much outside or characterization, to scale SF3 Ken to full power Ryu we need more proof than just an off-screen sparring match, if we take in account that Ryu won the post-credit fight against Ken, and even then it wasn't a death or last man standing match, as it happened with Akuma, where Ryu gave all of himself.

The Mu no Ken doesn't always turns people into light nor has the same properties. He didn't kill Necalli, just like his attacks aren't always intangible, he can choose whether or not using a specific property, just like Gouken didn't decontruct Ryu back in SF4 when he sealed his power.

But the whole point of Ryu's plot in SFV was achieving the Mu no Ken to suppress the hado and become strong without losing control every time, it has less sense that he first became incredibly strong in his base, and then used his newfound power only after both fights. Imho, the burden on proof is up to you to demonstrate that Ryu doesn't use his new power, espescially because nothing suggests he isn't using it.

The aura not coming out isn't an evidence, as it doesn't specifically need to be out for other characters, I don't see why it should be for Ryu. Him displaying it after the fight with Necalli might be to show it off, but we still have good reasons to believe he can use it without glowing white every time.
He also actually used the glow one single time against Necalli, the chi seen after fighting Bison was because of the hadoken being fired.

Bison also states "You actually had the power to defeat that beast! Now show it to me! strongly implying that Ryu used the Mu no Ken against him

Ryu also doesn't show the glow when about to or after fighting Akuma and Kage. He might not have activated it, but imho, there's a very little chance for it to be a thing.
After all, Akuma, Gouken, Bison, Kage and others don't necessarily need to glow in order to use their power, I don't see why it would be different for Ryu.

But I think it's best to wait for input from other people, at this point.

 

[Continuum19]

We’ll just have to agree to disagree on this point because I personally think the sparring match is enough evidence to scale Ken.

I never claimed that Ken scales to Full Power Ryu.

Only Base Ryu (who I believed performed the boulder feat since their isn’t any hard evidence that Ryu can use Mu No Ken in base and Ryu obviously wasn’t glowing when he lifted said boulder).

SF4/5 retroactively gave Ryu access to Mu No Ken so he likely wasn’t at full power when he fought Ken during SF3.

That’s not how burden of proof works dude.

You initially claimed that Ryu can continuously use Mu No Ken in base and you haven’t provided any concrete evidence that this is the case so you need to prove he can do so.

Bison’s quote can be applied to Base Ryu’s power as well.

Akuma, Kage, Gouken and Bison only have access to one source of power each so they shouldn’t have to glow to be able to amp themselves with their respective energy sources n my opinion (Ryu has his ordinary Ki energy plus his Mu No Ken power).

I’m fine with waiting for more input if you are.

 

[BlackDarkness679]

Bison was cut off from the black moon after Nash fought him, let alone he absorbed some of Bison power too before Ryu came to battle him

Also Mu no Ken is what defeated Necalli for good, PoN Ryu one shot Necalli out of his ToP form back to base, meanwhile base form Ryu only knocked ToP Necalli for a moment before he got right back up which leads later to what i said earlier

So Bison likely reffered to Mu no Ken Ryu, not base when talking of him ending Necalli

Akuma mentions the Mu no Ken, his fist of humanity, clashing with his demon fist, satsui no hado, that being what the battle gonna be of, Akuma managing to even defeat an all out PoN Ryu, Kage beat Akuma and even tells Ryu how he beat him, one of the few characters that Ryu wanted to beat, so would make no sense base form Ryu tries to face Kage, he would need Mu no Ken to put up more of a fight, we still see him pretty beaten afterwards, but winning mentally on him instead

 

[BlackDarkness679]

Also for the corruption thing, we know Kage was the one behind Sagat deal with the dark hado in his story, he tried to tempt him, same with Akuma and Ryu about satsui power being absolute and that they are fools for not doing it his way

Akuma whole deal was also tempt Ryu to give to the hado, until SF5 where he doesnt care of that anymore from what his story shows, also Evil Ryu in SF5 doing in Ryu story from the start the same

Dont think it should be gone or that it takes long, just needs to be better put out there, Kage even in his in game lines has stuff like telling opponents to show him the satsui within them

Overall agree with everything else

 

[BlackDarkness679]

Also Ken battled Ryu 2 times in SF5, both were sparring matches, 1st one he beats Ryu iirc, 2nd one Ryu wins and we dont see Ken in SF5 do something to suggest really they equals, rivalries suggest the two characters are comparable, but sometimes its not the case and can be one sided

Sonic (not the hedgehog) has Saitama as a rival, we all should know how the power difference goes there or even rivalries between two characters from separate franchises, not all are fair or anyone match, they can be one sided as hell

 

[Continuum19]

Bison was cut off from the black moon after Nash fought him, let alone he absorbed some of Bison power too before Ryu came to battle him

Bison doesn’t draw power directly from the Black Moons BlackDarkness.

I thought he did too until one of Saman’s earlier revisions debunked that idea.

Unless you have evidence otherwise?

 

[SamanPatou]

Bison was cut off from the black moon after Nash fought him, let alone he absorbed some of Bison power too before Ryu came to battle him

Bison doesn’t draw power directly from the Black Moons BlackDarkness.

I thought he did too until one of Saman’s earlier revisions debunked that idea.

Unless you have evidence otherwise?

It has nothing to do with the Mu no Ken, it's just Bison has gotten weaker. About him being fueled, the Black Moons do give Bison power as long as they are active, but just because they constantly channel negative energy into him, they don't give him their electricity or whatever they use to float in space and release emps.

Also Mu no Ken is what defeated Necalli for good, PoN Ryu one shot Necalli out of his ToP form back to base, meanwhile base form Ryu only knocked ToP Necalli for a moment before he got right back up which leads later to what i said earlier

So Bison likely reffered to Mu no Ken Ryu, not base when talking of him ending Necalli

Akuma mentions the Mu no Ken, his fist of humanity, clashing with his demon fist, satsui no hado, that being what the battle gonna be of, Akuma managing to even defeat an all out PoN Ryu

This is another good piece of evidence which I forgot to mention, it also points out to Ryu using the Mu no Ken, rather than a supposed base power that has never been mentioned.

Kage beat Akuma and even tells Ryu how he beat him, one of the few characters that Ryu wanted to beat, so would make no sense base form Ryu tries to face Kage, he would need Mu no Ken to put up more of a fight, we still see him pretty beaten afterwards, but winning mentally on him instead

Slightly unrelated, but I'd take Kage defeating Akuma with a grain of salt, as he didn't really beat him and Kage always boasts himself. All their fights are also a bit weird, as they are more spiritual than physical at the end, and Kage hints to him being the Satsui even within Sagat and Akuma, so it's possible to him to have a varied level, but this doesn't matter in the current discussion

Also for the corruption thing, we know Kage was the one behind Sagat deal with the dark hado in his story, he tried to tempt him, same with Akuma and Ryu about satsui power being absolute and that they are fools for not doing it his way

Akuma whole deal was also tempt Ryu to give to the hado, until SF5 where he doesnt care of that anymore from what his story shows, also Evil Ryu in SF5 doing in Ryu story from the start the same

Dont think it should be gone or that it takes long, just needs to be better put out there, Kage even in his in game lines has stuff like telling opponents to show him the satsui within them

Kage absolutely has Corruption, although limited, because he is the Satsui itself that tries to corrupt others.
Akuma doesn't really corrupt Ryu, he urges him to embrace the Satsui, but those are "just words".
What seems weird is that the Satsui users can infect other people with it through physical strikes, mostly because the only evidence is Sagat being tempted by it, and it may seem that the reason is the scar Ryu made on his chest something like ten years before, but there is no confirmation of this nor anything similar in the series.

Also Ken battled Ryu 2 times in SF5, both were sparring matches, 1st one he beats Ryu iirc, 2nd one Ryu wins and we dont see Ken in SF5 do something to suggest really they equals, rivalries suggest the two characters are comparable, but sometimes its not the case and can be one sided

The first time is before Ryu started his training, so at the time he didn't have the Mu no Ken yet and it's perfectly possible for them to be comparable in base form. Their rematch happens after the game ending, Ryu already has the Mu no Ken and wins, but I still a match where Ryu didn't show his full power isn't enough to say that Ken magically got as strong as him out of nothing.

 

[BlackDarkness679]

It has nothing to do with the Mu no Ken, it's just Bison has gotten weaker. About him being fueled, the Black Moons do give Bison power as long as they are active, but just because they constantly channel negative energy into him, they don't give him their electricity or whatever they use to float in space and release emps.

What i was saying is he didnt face Black Moons Bison, not after they were shot off and Nash absorbed as much as he could from him, also that were on this, Nash had BM Bison on the ground for a while from the fight compared to earlier, he might have gotten powerful like Ryu with Necalli? If not wrong was after his battle with Urien all his potential got unlocked

This is another good piece of evidence which I forgot to mention, it also points out to Ryu using the Mu no Ken, rather than a supposed base power that has never been mentioned.

It should be obvious he was using PoN, since even in SF3 Akuma level characters are still abive base Ryu

Slightly unrelated, but I'd take Kage defeating Akuma with a grain of salt, as he didn't really beat him and Kage always boasts himself. All their fights are also a bit weird, as they are more spiritual than physical at the end, and Kage hints to him being the Satsui even within Sagat and Akuma, so it's possible to him to have a varied level, but this doesn't matter in the current discussion

I brought it up for the scaling at matter, tho Kage is boasting, its not like he didnt beat those characters he faced, he went away from them cuz they denied him like Ryu more or less, Sagat commented Kage was strong, Akuma we see him kneeled down after, with Ryu, he was bruised i think and on his back, the only one who did physically more to him was Akuma via a technique

Kage absolutely has Corruption, although limited, because he is the Satsui itself that tries to corrupt others.
Akuma doesn't really corrupt Ryu, he urges him to embrace the Satsui, but those are "just words".
What seems weird is that the Satsui users can infect other people with it through physical strikes, mostly because the only evidence is Sagat being tempted by it, and it may seem that the reason is the scar Ryu made on his chest something like ten years before, but there is no confirmation of this nor anything similar in the series.

Can put a possibly or limited or both with what there is available at hand

The first time is before Ryu started his training, so at the time he didn't have the Mu no Ken yet and it's perfectly possible for them to be comparable in base form. Their rematch happens after the game ending, Ryu already has the Mu no Ken and wins, but I still a match where Ryu didn't show his full power isn't enough to say that Ken magically got as strong as him out of nothing.

Well Ken was roughly on Ryu level in SF series, after SF5 that might have changed now, anyway Ken aint getting scaled to current base form Ryu

 

[BlackDarkness679]

Bison doesn’t draw power directly from the Black Moons BlackDarkness.

I thought he did too until one of Saman’s earlier revisions debunked that idea.

Unless you have evidence otherwise?

Also i never said it in the way that you think, so dont know why you even had to throw that out, i said he got cut off from them, as well as absorbed from Nash some of it

 

[SamanPatou]

What i was saying is he didnt face Black Moons Bison, not after they were shot off and Nash absorbed as much as he could from him, also that were on this, Nash had BM Bison on the ground for a while from the fight compared to earlier, he might have gotten powerful like Ryu with Necalli? If not wrong was after his battle with Urien all his potential got unlocked.

Bison was holding back against Nash when they fought, not only he calls him attempt "pathetic", he also oneshots him immediately after, even when the Black Moons stopped fueling him. After the battle with Urien, Nash just got healed, there's no mention to a power being unlocked.

It should be obvious he was using PoN, since even in SF3 Akuma level characters are still abive base Ryu

Well Ken was roughly on Ryu level in SF series, after SF5 that might have changed now, anyway Ken aint getting scaled to current base form Ryu

The overall point was to get rid of "Base Ryu", as he seems to having full control on the Mu no Ken, to the point that there is no distinction between a base or activated form, just like Gouken, Akuma and other characters are always in a state where they use their power. We have already seen that glowing isn't a requirement to use any inner power, and with all the things that have been brought up, it's very unlikely and doesn't make much sense that Ryu uses his newfound power only in a couple of occasions, especially when there's no mention of any "new great base power" or this distinction being actually a thing.

And removing the base form key basically means that SF3 Ryu is much stronger than Ken, Sagat and Bison's first two keys, meaning that they don't scale anymore to his SF3 lifting strength feat. I understand that it's weird to retroactively deal with SF3, as at the time the things were different, but now that Ryu got incredibly stronger in-between, Ken in order to fully scale needs more solid evidences that an off-screen sparring match.

I brought it up for the scaling at matter, tho Kage is boasting, its not like he didnt beat those characters he faced, he went away from them cuz they denied him like Ryu more or less, Sagat commented Kage was strong, Akuma we see him kneeled down after, with Ryu, he was bruised i think and on his back, the only one who did physically more to him was Akuma via a technique.

I feel like Kage would need his own little discussion before being properly restored as a profile. He fights people more on the mental/spiritual plane rather than the physical, and his aim to have them fully embrace the Satsui, not just clobbering them. And, despite Kage has Ryu's appearance, he states to be the Satsui no Hado inside each user, including Akuma, so it's possible that his power varies depending on the opponent, reflecting the Satsui within them, always taking in account that mental/spiritual fortitude is what ultimately defeats Kage, not just raw power. Anyway, leaving this for another time, there's no reason for Ryu to not use the Mu no Ken in his fight against Kage, especially because that is what allowed him to overcome the Satsui in the first place.

Can put a possibly or limited or both with what there is available at hand.

Maybe a possibly limited might work, but should still be noted that it's not something immediate nor granted. Sagat was struck by Ryu's shoryuken in SF1 but manifested the Satsui only something like about 10 years after.

 

[BlackDarkness679]

Bison was holding back against Nash when they fought, not only he calls him attempt "pathetic", he also oneshots him immediately after, even when the Black Moons stopped fueling him. After the battle with Urien, Nash just got healed, there's no mention to a power being unlocked.

F then

The overall point was to get rid of "Base Ryu", as he seems to having full control on the Mu no Ken, to the point that there is no distinction between a base or activated form, just like Gouken, Akuma and other characters are always in a state where they use their power. We have already seen that glowing isn't a requirement to use any inner power, and with all the things that have been brought up, it's very unlikely and doesn't make much sense that Ryu uses his newfound power only in a couple of occasions, especially when there's no mention of any "new great base power" or this distinction being actually a thing.

Not sure if Ryu being like Gouken now with PoN should be a thing, Gouken has more experience and years with it, Ryu just recently managed to get a better hold

And removing the base form key basically means that SF3 Ryu is much stronger than Ken, Sagat and Bison's first two keys, meaning that they don't scale anymore to his SF3 lifting strength feat. I understand that it's weird to retroactively deal with SF3, as at the time the things were different, but now that Ryu got incredibly stronger in-between, Ken in order to fully scale needs more solid evidences that an off-screen sparring match.

Pretty much

I feel like Kage would need his own little discussion before being properly restored as a profile. He fights people more on the mental/spiritual plane rather than the physical, and his aim to have them fully embrace the Satsui, not just clobbering them. And, despite Kage has Ryu's appearance, he states to be the Satsui no Hado inside each user, including Akuma, so it's possible that his power varies depending on the opponent, reflecting the Satsui within them, always taking in account that mental/spiritual fortitude is what ultimately defeats Kage, not just raw power. Anyway, leaving this for another time, there's no reason for Ryu to not use the Mu no Ken in his fight against Kage, especially because that is what allowed him to overcome the Satsui in the first place.

They all overcome him cuz they dont fall for his temptation, tho physically they dont do much on him, thats what i said earlier too, they dont get tempted by him

Maybe a possibly limited might work, but should still be noted that it's not something immediate nor granted. Sagat was struck by Ryu's shoryuken in SF1 but manifested the Satsui only something like about 10 years after.

All this happened after Kage came to be, cuz of Ryu, as far lore says on Kage, its a little weird all that

 

[Continuum19]

Also i never said it in the way that you think, so dont know why you even had to throw that out, i said he got cut off from them, as well as absorbed from Nash some of it

I don’t know what you mean by “cut off” dude.

Bison’s being empowered by the negative energy of the Earth.

Or am I missing something?

 

[SamanPatou]

Talking about Bison is worthless now, the discussion is already over, the thing is solved and it doesn't have anything to do with any relevant topic anyway.


To summarize, accounting everything we have said, we have three options:

1) We leave Ryu's profile as he is now, 9-A Base form with Class 100 LS that scales to other 9-As

2) We merge Ryu's base and PoN into a single key, with his Class 100 not scaling anymore to other 9-As, including his previous self

3) We give Ryu's base High 7-A tier and higher via the PoN, with class 100 still not scaling because other 9-As didn't demonstrate to be able of fighting evenly with this Ryu.


Personally, I'm for option 2 because of my FRAs.

 

[SamanPatou]

I kindly ask you both to stop right now, or just move this quarrel to a message wall.

Bison's thing is over, solved and most of all pointless.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Bring it to DMs or something you two. do not derail this thread further with your spat.

 

[SamanPatou]

Not sure if Ryu being like Gouken now with PoN should be a thing, Gouken has more experience and years with it, Ryu just recently managed to get a better hold

About this, the main evidence is that Ryu defeated Necalli before showing the Power of Nothingness, but at that point he shoudl have already learned how to use it, it was the purpose of his training and he was fight for the fight, he didn't unlock it doing the battle.

And Ryu being able to always it, supported by the words of the battles against Bison and Akuma, seems more likely than him obtaining a supposed power up in base form, and then having to activate this other power up, also because there's no mention of such thing.
I've already talked a lot about the white glow not being something that needs to be out for Ryu to use to PoN, mentioning Gouken and Akuma was to bring examples of other characters that can use their power without glowing.

 

[Antvasima]

What are the conclusions here so far?

Also:

@TISSG7Redgrave @Professor_Voodoo @N-nani @Anttron224 @PuasLuisZX @MaidRips

What do you think about this?

 

[SamanPatou]

What are the conclusions here so far?

Everyone who has comment accepted everything in the op but SFV Ryu losing the 9-A base form, and the consequent LS downgrade for some characters that used to scale, but wouldn't scale anymore.

Continuum believes that Ryu should retain the base form, just upgrading it to High 7-A with the Power of Nothingness as an amplifier, and would also like Ken to scale to Ryu.

Blackdarkness believes Ryu still doesn't have enough control on the Power of Nothingness to justify the separation between forms, but I didn't clearly understand his proposals.

 

[Continuum19]

Continuum believes that Ryu should retain the base form, just upgrading it to High 7-A with the Power of Nothingness as an amplifier, and would also like Ken to scale to Ryu.

Huh?

Where did you get the idea that I believe that Base Ryu scales to High 7-A?

Ryu’s Satsui no Hado power was used to nuke that city (based on the evidence you provided in a previous CRT) and I haven’t seen any solid evidence that Ryu is comparable to Evil Ryu even with Mu No Ken.

 

[Antvasima]

Everyone who has comment accepted everything in the op but SFV Ryu losing the 9-A base form, and the consequent LS downgrade for some characters that used to scale, but wouldn't scale anymore.

Continuum believes that Ryu should retain the base form, just upgrading it to High 7-A with the Power of Nothingness as an amplifier, and would also like Ken to scale to Ryu.

Blackdarkness believes Ryu still doesn't have enough control on the Power of Nothingness to justify the separation between forms, but I didn't clearly understand his proposals.

Well, I am too overwhelmed with work to be able to properly evaluate this, but I will call some staff members to help you out.

@Gemmysaur @JustSomeWeirdo @LordGriffin1000 @Theglassman12 @Crabwhale @GyroNutz @DarkGrath @The_Wright_Way

Would you be willing to help evaluate this please?

 

[SamanPatou]

Huh?

I don’t agree

I thought you agreed with what didn't involve Ryu's base form, so my bad then, you can give your thoughts on the rest.

Huh?

Where did you get the idea that I believe that Base Ryu scales to High 7-A?

Ryu’s Satsui no Hado power was used to nuke that city (based on the evidence you provided in a previous CRT) and I haven’t seen any solid evidence that Tyu is comparable to Evil Ryu even with Mu No Ken.

I talked about that in this CRT, but Ryu's base would be High 7-A because he defeated Torrent of Power Necalli, who somewhat scales to his Satsui form because he was overwhelming Dhalsim (who withstood a Satsui-imbued punch and was confident in at least hurting Oro in a meaningful way) and, also the prophecy as a second evidence to support it.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Well, I am too overwhelmed with work to be able to properly evaluate this, but I will call some staff members to help you out.

Please be sure to take breaks when needed Ant, nobody wants you to exert yourself over this

 

[Continuum19]

I thought you agreed with what didn't involve Ryu's base form, so my bad then, you can give your thoughts on the rest.


I talked about that in this CRT, but Ryu's base would be High 7-A because he defeated Torrent of Power Necalli, who somewhat scales to his Satsui form because he was overwhelming Dhalsim (who withstood a Satsui-imbued punch and was confident in at least hurting Oro in a meaningful way) and, also the prophecy as a second evidence to support it.

That makes sense.

 

[Antvasima]

Please be sure to take breaks when needed Ant, nobody wants you to exert yourself over this

There has been lots of extra work recently with adjusting the VSB and Tenchi wikis to virtually identical layouts as previous to Fandom's system update, and reporting all the bugs that I find to the Fandom staff, so they can fix them. In addition, I have had some IRL issues to handle, and discussed wiki relevant matters in private with the other bureaucrats, and tried to prepare the forum for being accepted into Google AdSense, on top of all my regular work with trying to organise the forum discussions and patrolling wiki edits.

 

[DaReaperMan]

There has been lots of extra work recently with adjusting the VSB and Tenchi wikis to virtually identical layouts as previous to Fandom's system update, and reporting all the bugs that I find to the Fandom staff, so they can fix them. In addition, I have had some IRL work to do.

Of course, just try to stay healthy.

 

[PuasLuisZX]

Overall, I agree with many of the changes proposed, albeit currently I am a bit mixed about Gill being only 8-B, it's currently something I can reasonable accept.