Star Wars Discussion Thread Canon/Legends- Episode V Attack of the Fanons

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Hey, so there's something that really bugs me about our SW:TOR Profiles. Why do we assume that The Hero of Tython is the Outlander that fights Valkorian, Arcann and Vayliin? Is that ever confirmed anywhere or is it just because he's the only character that's 4-B in the Base Game with no DLC and thus the Scaling makes more sense that way? If that's the case, why can't we just make KotFE Keys for all the Player Characters since they all get way stronger in that DLC by the end of things? Even THoT gets way stronger than he was before.

 

[aeneax]

Hey, so there's something that really bugs me about our SW:TOR Profiles. Why do we assume that The Hero of Tython is the Outlander that fights Valkorian, Arcann and Vayliin? Is that ever confirmed anywhere or is it just because he's the only character that's 4-B in the Base Game with no DLC and thus the Scaling makes more sense that way? If that's the case, why can't we just make KotFE Keys for all the Player Characters since they all get way stronger in that DLC by the end of things? Even THoT gets way stronger than he was before.

The Hero of Tython is one of the seven other characters that go missing before the Eternal Empire c*cks everyone. The class of your choice represents the character coming out of hiding, I believe. This is a plot device to avoid undermining the canonicity of the other classes. The wiki probably chose to structure it that way because the non-sensitives characters defeating Vaylin and Arcann are canon, which would cause severe malding in the TOR brigade. Everyone assumes the Hero is the Outlander because it makes the most sense. There's implied history between Valkorion and HoT, Scourge's vision has the HoT being the Outlander, etc.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

The Hero of Tython is one of the seven other characters that go missing before the Eternal Empire c*cks everyone. The class of your choice represents the character coming out of hiding, I believe. This is a plot device to avoid undermining the canonicity of the other classes. The wiki probably chose to structure it that way because the non-sensitives characters defeating Vaylin and Arcann are canon, which would cause severe malding in the TOR brigade. Everyone assumes the Hero is the Outlander because it makes the most sense. There's implied history between Valkorion and HoT, Scourge's vision has the HoT being the Outlander, etc.

Even so, it bothers me a lot that we're basically cucking the other Player Characters by not giving them the Benefit of the doubt to at least make Keys for that expansion for everyone since they all could be equally Canon to each other since it's never explicitly stated who the Outlander is as far as I can tell. While we're on this topic, why are THoT and Nox the only Player Characters that have Profiles?

 

[ArgosaxDespair]

Even so, it bothers me a lot that we're basically cucking the other Player Characters by not giving them the Benefit of the doubt to at least make Keys for that expansion for everyone since they all could be equally Canon to each other since it's never explicitly stated who the Outlander is as far as I can tell. While we're on this topic, why are THoT and Nox the only Player Characters that have Profiles?

do you mean like a composite profile or 8 different profiles for every character?

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

do you mean like a composite profile or 8 different profiles for every character?

8 Different Profiles for each Character. Why the **** would I make a Composite Profile?

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Speaking of which, Vaylin is strong as **** and should get a Profile of her own as well as Lord Dramath aka Valkorian/Tenebrae's Dad because he's also strong as ****.

 

[ArgosaxDespair]

The Hero of Tython is one of the seven other characters that go missing before the Eternal Empire c*cks everyone. The class of your choice represents the character coming out of hiding, I believe. This is a plot device to avoid undermining the canonicity of the other classes. The wiki probably chose to structure it that way because the non-sensitives characters defeating Vaylin and Arcann are canon, which would cause severe malding in the TOR brigade. Everyone assumes the Hero is the Outlander because it makes the most sense. There's implied history between Valkorion and HoT, Scourge's vision has the HoT being the Outlander, etc.

yo I never asked you but why do you have Plagueis and the other ro2 sith so low? you said Plagueis doesn't understand the Force here, you said on cv that 80 yo Plagueis is weaker than a random nameless jedi master and this is the first time i've heard someone saying that tbh

 

[ArgosaxDespair]

8 Different Profiles for each Character. Why the **** would I make a Composite Profile?

oh sorry mr. Lord, in an attempt to converse with a fellow user it appears that I made the chronic mistake of ASKING ONE QUESTION

 

[aeneax]

yo I never asked you but why do you have Plagueis and the other ro2 sith so low? you said Plagueis doesn't understand the Force here, you said on cv that 80 yo Plagueis is weaker than a random nameless jedi master and this is the first time i've heard someone saying that tbh

A Force user with no knowledge of the Force can use alter-enviroment, Kihb Jeen, a random Jedi Padawan, nearly destroyed a city with Force lightning (Plagueis caps at filling a small landscape), and then was killed by a rank and file Jedi Knight. The disciples of Namman Cha have mastered invisibility and flight, as well as the Dark Jedi Maw and Pic. Plagueis is far more powerful than any of them, but he can’t do the things in question, and believes he just has to exert more power over the Force to accomplish them. Later, An’ya Kuro and random dark side adepts would master the ability to effortlessly teleport. Both Luke and Palpatine outright call Plagueis an ignorant idiot. Lucas says Plagueis is a scam. Jinn says Plagueis is a scam.

80-year-old Plagueis with more than 55 years of dark side training says that he's equal to a random nautolan. Said nautolan is killed by a random Jedi Master and his padawan. Both of them also have no reaction of danger when Plagueis literally exerts his full power in the same vicinity as them.

Even though Plagueis is trash, he's still better than previous Banites, so they're trash too.

 

[ByAsura]

The first quote there is severely out of context. This is the next line. Sorcery and powers like that are useless to him even if Tenebrous (his former master) had known.

• From the start Tenebrous had told him that he lacked the talent for Sith sorcery, even though the inability hadn’t owed to a deficiency of midi-chlorians. It’s an innate gift, the Bith would say when pressed, and one that he had lacked, as well. Sorcery paled in comparison with Bith science, regardless. But Plagueis now understood that Tenebrous had been wrong about sorcery, as he had been wrong about so many things. Yes, the gift was strongest in those who, with scant effort, could allow themselves to be subsumed by the currents of the Force and become conduits for the powers of the dark side. But there was an alternative path to those abilities, and it led from a place where the circle closed on itself and sheer will substituted for selflessness. Plagueis understood, too, that there were no powers beyond his reach; none he couldn’t master through an effort of will. If a Sith of equal power had preceded him, then that one had taken his or her secrets to the grave, or had locked them away in holocrons that had been destroyed or had yet to surface.

The other stuff is also complete bunk. All it suggests is that Plagueis' less esoteric view of the force kept him from his goal of total immortality.

What's the context on Jinn calling him a scam? It doesn't seem like he'd know about Plagueis' Sith powers, or have any real insight into the Sith threat before Maul.

Wasn't that Nautolan, who needed to prove himself to Plagueis, one of Venamis' potential apprentices at a point when he was still alive? More context is desperately needed.

Also, the Sith explicitly grew stronger over millennia. Banites are stated on multiple occasions to be more powerful because they've actually passed down most of their knowledge and cultivated it through generations. This is why Palpatine has dozens of statements that he's the most powerful Sith.

• The Sith had changed. The Sith had grown, had adapted, had invested a thousand years' intensive study into every aspect of not only the Force but Jedi lore itself, in preparation for exactly this day. The Sith had remade themselves.

 

[aeneax]

From the start Tenebrous had told him that he lacked the talent for Sith sorcery, even though the inability hadn’t owed to a deficiency of midi-chlorians. It’s an innate gift, the Bith would say when pressed, and one that he had lacked, as well. Sorcery paled in comparison with Bith science, regardless. But Plagueis now understood that Tenebrous had been wrong about sorcery, as he had been wrong about so many things. Yes, the gift was strongest in those who, with scant effort, could allow themselves to be subsumed by the currents of the Force and become conduits for the powers of the dark side. But there was an alternative path to those abilities, and it led from a place where the circle closed on itself and sheer will substituted for selflessness. Plagueis understood, too, that there were no powers beyond his reach; none he couldn’t master through an effort of will. If a Sith of equal power had preceded him, then that one had taken his or her secrets to the grave, or had locked them away in holocrons that had been destroyed or had yet to surface.

Refer to the quote, "But Plagueis never succeeded in duplicating any of those phenomena." Plagueis actually tried to replicate them. He never deems them useless, he just thinks that MM will allow him to achieve anything, but that's neither here nor there. My point isn't about Sith Sorcery or MM at all, but that Plagueis can't replicate things that other inferior Force users can, and that's simply because he lacks understanding of the Force. A lot of the mentioned powers aren't even Sorcery, by the way.

The other stuff is also complete bunk. All it suggests is that Plagueis' less esoteric view of the force kept him from his goal of total immortality.

What's the context on Jinn calling him a scam? It doesn't seem like he'd know about Plagueis' Sith powers, or have any real insight into the Sith threat before Maul.

Immortality is a scam from the very beginning—it is not at all relevant in Plagueis being a bad Force user. Dan Wallace equates Plagueis' views on the Force to him "missing the forest for the trees," and this is not in relation to immortality, but in relation to Plagueis misinterpreting the Force. That's the intention behind authors who wrote about Plagueis, too.

The context is him talking about immortality with Yoda. Plagueis is a scam is this sense because MM hax was the only thing he had going on.

Wasn't that Nautolan, who needed to prove himself to Plagueis, one of Venamis' potential apprentices at a point when he was still alive? More context is desperately needed.

Yes, Naat is his name if memory serves. The Jedi Master and his padawan are hunting Naat and Plagueis is in the same market as them. Plagueis then "draws deeply" on the Force to draw their attention. They can't pinpoint Plagueis because they're looking for tentacle-head, not a Muun. After briefly talking to the Jedi, Plagueis leaves and baits Naat into coming to the swamp where the Jedi are headed to cause them to collide. Plagueis exchange a few words with Naat and tells him that to be accepted, he must kill the two Jedi. Naat accepts and proceeds to get killed in 10 seconds by the Jedi Master despite ambushing them. The Jedi also believe that they killed the source of the power they sensed in the market, which was in fact Plagueis drawing deeply on the Force. Plagueis would then say that tentacle-head had powers equal to his while reminiscing about the events.

Also, the Sith explicitly grew stronger over millennia. Banites are stated on multiple occasions to be more powerful because they've actually passed down most of their knowledge and cultivated it through generations. This is why Palpatine has dozens of statements that he's the most powerful Sith.

• The Sith had changed. The Sith had grown, had adapted, had invested a thousand years' intensive study into every aspect of not only the Force but Jedi lore itself, in preparation for exactly this day. The Sith had remade themselves.

Banite growth is one big misconception. The Rule of Two failed from the very beginning, let's be real. Zannah is weaker than Bane in their confrontation, and she uses external means to harm Bane instead of her own power, going completely against the point of the Rule of Two. After Bane is killed, his spirit dips and Zannah doesn't feel empowered at all. Gravid then sets back the Banite Sith and destroys half of their accumulated knowledge and artifacts. 67BBY Plagueis, shortly before killing Tenebrous, believes himself to be weaker than Naga Sadow. Then consider that a lot of the Banite Sith were complete untalented dumbfucks who didn't even follow the Rule of Two, and only precious 'few' Sith Lords did.

"And yet, while all Sith Lords were powerful, not all were brilliant or in complete possession of the powers the dark side granted them."

"Like Plagueis, Tenebrous had obviously embraced the fact that Darth Bane's Rule of Two had expired. Precious few Sith Lords had honored it, in any case, and with good reason, as Plagueis saw it. The goals of the Grand Plan were revenge and the reacquisition of galactic power. But while most Sith Lords since Bane had in their own fashion helped to weaken the Republic, their efforts had owed less to selflessness and allegiance to the Rule than to weakness and incompetence. Driven to discharge Bane's imperative they might have been, and yet each had fallen prey to individual foibles and eccentricities, and so had failed to exact revenge on the the Jedi Order."

 

[ByAsura]

Refer to the quote, "But Plagueis never succeeded in duplicating any of those phenomena." Plagueis actually tried to replicate them. He never deems them useless, he just thinks that MM will allow him to achieve anything, but that's neither here nor there. My point isn't about Sith Sorcery or MM at all, but that Plagueis can't replicate things that other inferior Force users can, and that's simply because he lacks understanding of the Force. A lot of the mentioned powers aren't even Sorcery, by the way.

He might of tried briefly (some sources even say he got there eventually, with powers like becoming a Force Spirit), but then he deems it useless and focused his efforts on total and utter immortality, beyond living after corporeal destruction like Palpatine.

• But sorcery had been employed less to extend life than to create illusions, fashion beasts, and resurrect the dead. Powerful adepts were said to have been able to saturate the atmosphere of planets with dark side energy, compel stars to explode, or induce paralysis in crowds, as Exar Kun apparently did to select members of the Republic Senate. Other adepts used sorcery merely as a means to better understand ancient Sith spells and sigils. Darth Bane had referred to sorcery as one of the purest expressions of the dark side of the Force, and yet he hadn’t been able to harness those energies with near the skill as had his onetime apprentice Zannah. Bane’s disciples, however, believed that he had experimented with a technique of even greater significance: that of essence transfer, which he had learned after acquiring and plundering the holocron of Darth Andeddu, and which involved the relocation of an individual’s consciousness into another body or, in some cases, a talisman, temple, or sarcophagus. Thus had the most powerful of the ancient Sith Lords survived death to haunt and harass those who would in6ltrate their tombs. But none of this amounted to corporeal survival. Plagueis had no interest in being a lingering, disembodied presence, trapped between worlds and powerless to accept the material realm except through the actions of weak-minded beings he could goad, coax, or will into action. Nor did he seek to shunt his mind into the body of another, whether an apprentice, as Bane was thought to have attempted, or some vat-grown clone. Nothing less than the immortality of his body and mind would suffice. Everlasting life.

If these Force-users are inferior, then this proves nothing about power. Plagueis can still atomize people with a touch, so he's not some small fry that's below Qui-Gonn. I'd also say that he's nowhere near as powerful as people think, though. He's not godly, just more powerful than most of history's Sith Lords.

Immortality is a scam from the very beginning—it is not at all relevant in Plagueis being a bad Force user. Dan Wallace equates Plagueis' views on the Force to him "missing the forest for the trees," and this is not in relation to immortality, but in relation to Plagueis misinterpreting the Force. That's the intention behind authors who wrote about Plagueis, too.

The context is him talking about immortality with Yoda. Plagueis is a scam is this sense because MM hax was the only thing he had going on.

And none of that means Plagueis is a weak force-user. What he wanted was complete immortality, and he adopted a less esoteric view of the Force.

Yes, Naat is his name if memory serves. The Jedi Master and his padawan are hunting Naat and Plagueis is in the same market as them. Plagueis then "draws deeply" on the Force to draw their attention. They can't pinpoint Plagueis because they're looking for tentacle-head, not a Muun. After briefly talking to the Jedi, Plagueis leaves and baits Naat into coming to the swamp where the Jedi are headed to cause them to collide. Plagueis exchange a few words with Naat and tells him that to be accepted, he must kill the two Jedi. Naat accepts and proceeds to get killed in 10 seconds by the Jedi Master despite ambushing them. The Jedi also believe that they killed the source of the power they sensed in the market, which was in fact Plagueis drawing deeply on the Force. Plagueis would then say that tentacle-head had powers equal to his while reminiscing about the events.

Naat died in 67 BBY. Plagueis was equal to him at that point, most likely.

Banite growth is one big misconception. The Rule of Two failed from the very beginning, let's be real. Zannah is weaker than Bane in their confrontation, and she uses external means to harm Bane instead of her own power, going completely against the point of the Rule of Two. After Bane is killed, his spirit dips and Zannah doesn't feel empowered at all. Gravid then sets back the Banite Sith and destroys half of their accumulated knowledge and artifacts. 67BBY Plagueis, shortly before killing Tenebrous, believes himself to be weaker than Naga Sadow. Then consider that a lot of the Banite Sith were complete untalented dumbfucks who didn't even follow the Rule of Two, and only precious 'few' Sith Lords did.

There's more than a few sources confirming that the Jedi of the present consider characters such as Maul to be more powerful, and they did in fact cultivate all of their power into two beings (mainly).

She used sorcery, and to a far higher level than Bane. Her actual force skills were about equal, it's just that his lightsaber abilities were much more developed.

The point isn't being empowered, it's being able to equal/surpass and kill the previous Sith with their training. So it definitely worked, and she never even says that she didn't become or feel more powerful. Even the writer confirms that the Rule of Two worked, which he even cements by having Bane slightly possess her.

• I’ll be honest; I thought it was pretty clear in my writing. I wrote the scene from Cognus’s point of view to keep you guessing to the last instant, but when Zannah proclaims “Darth Bane is gone. I am Darth Zannah, Dark Lord of the Sith and your new Master,” I thought it would be pretty clear. The whole thing with Zannah’s hand twitching was only to show that some part of Bane had passed through to her. How much – was he still “alive” in some way, or is it just a small part of his identity imprinted on her – was supposed to be the ambiguous part. But I never wanted people to assume Bane had taken over Zannah’s body successfully. Still, some people interpreted the scene that way. I guess I can see it, but you’re making a lot of assumptions to come to that conclusion. First, Zannah is asking Cognus questions that Bane already knows the answer to. Yes, it could be part of “tricking” Cognus, but that assumes Bane would want to trick Cognus. And I honestly don’t know where people get that impression from. Bane WANTED a stronger successor to overthrow him; the only reason he learned the ritual was because he needed to prolong his life if Zannah proved to be weak. Yet somehow people made the jump that Bane not only took over Zannah’s body, but was then hiding the fact from Cognus in order to later take over her body… possibly in a line all the way down to Sidious himself. (That is NOT what I was trying to imply, but a lot of readers went there.) I’m not sure where this all comes from; I don’t think Bane I ever portrayed Bane as someone who wanted to hide in the dark and steal the fresh bodies of his unsuspecting apprentices so he could live forever even if he didn’t deserve it. That would kind of go against everything I built up about him through the three novels.

Also, Palpatine became way more powerful after Plagueis died.

That's not what Ancient Sith say in Krayt's era, nor DE.

He believes it's a possibility simply because sorcery isn't something known to him. He's basing his beliefs on pure conjecture.

• If one accepted the tales handed down in accounts and holocrons, the ancient Sith had known how to accomplish this. But had Sith like Naga Sadow and Exar Kun genuinely been more powerful, or had they benefited from the fact that the dark side had been more prominent in those bygone eras?

Like whom, Palpatine, Dooku and Vader? Most of them did follow it and accumulate vast amounts of power. Palpatine is the culmination of all that power, which was why he could take over the galaxy almost singlehanded. It's worth nothing that having Maul take on Savage as an apprentice in his era was disturbing the dark side because only two actual Sith Lords are supposed to exist.

• For a millennium, the Sith maintained the order in secrecy, passing down their evil heritage. As they gained knowledge of the dark side of the Force, their powers increased with each generation.
• For a thousand years we continued to follow Bane's Rule of Two, existing in the shadows, biding our time, growing in power, feeding our hatred. - Star Wars Insider 88: Heritage of the Sith
• Ultimately, Bane's plan produced more powerful Sith Lords with every generation. - Star Wars: Force & Destiny

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Get ready for Star Wars Vision because tomorrow the series will going to be have it's debut!

 

[aeneax]

I will get back to you in the morning. Gonna sleep.

 

[aeneax]

He might of tried briefly, but then he deems it useless and focused his efforts on total and utter immortality, beyond living after corporeal destruction like Palpatine. If these Force-users are inferior, then this proves nothing about power. Plagueis can still atomize people with a touch, so he's not some small fry that's below Qui-Gonn. They're mentioned as Sith Sorcery in this book, so I don't know what to tell you.

I gave you examples of people with little to no training at all doing those things in one attempt. I wrote:

Plagueis is far more powerful than any of them, but he can’t do the things in question, and believes he just has to exert more power over the Force to accomplish them.

Plagueis is more powerful, no doubt. Argosax initially asked me about why I said Plagueis doesn't understand the Force and why I think ROT Sith are trash. I already provided multiple reasons as to why Plagueis doesn't understand the Force.

And none of that means Plagueis is a bad force-user. What he wanted was complete immortality, and he adopted a less esoteric view of the Force.

Plagueis being a bad Force user is how the author portrays him. Dan Wallace reinforces that idea. Luke and Palpatine think that Plagueis is either blind or doesn't understand the Force. Plagueis is, of course, still a Force user, and he can accomplish incredible feats, but the only reason he struggles with those powers is that he doesn't understand the Force.

Naat died in 67 BBY. Plagueis was equal to him at that point, most likely.

And that goes back to the main point. 67BBY Plagueis surpasses Tenebrous. So you have one of the final members of the Banite line being weaker to a random Jedi Master.

There's more than a few sources confirming that the Jedi of the present consider characters such as Maul to be more powerful, and they did in fact cultivate all of their power into two beings (mainly).

She used sorcery, and to a far higher level than Bane. Her actual force skills were about equal, it's just that his lightsaber abilities were much more developed.

The point isn't being empowered, it's being able to equal/surpass and kill the previous Sith with their training. So it definitely worked, and she never even says that she didn't become or feel more powerful. Even the writer confirms that the Rule of Two worked, which he even cements by having Bane slightly possess her.

TPM Maul is "equally as formidable" as TPM Sidious, and many more quotes support that notion. I have no issue with that. Lucas clarified that Sidious has always looked for someone who is > himself in Force potential. More of Banite boost below.

Zannah can't get past a lesser Force shield that Bane summons while weakened and distracted. Zannah can't absorb or directly counter Bane's Force attacks at all. Bane goes insane mid-fight; she still can't do anything. Bane is drugged; she can't do any significant damage. The fight only changes when she uses a power that's not hers. I can accept that they're comparable, but near-equal or equal is too much.

The author is wrong in this case. Among all Sith Lords, their first and final apprentices, only a few even followed the Rule of Two. A lot of them are described as untalented, weak and incompetent. You can argue that this system that the Banite eventually created by ditching the Rule of Two is better, but I wouldn't attribute Maul's/Dooku's/Palpatine's growth and success to the Rule of Two at all. More on that at the end.

Drew wrote that Bane tried to possess her and then disappeared after—neither are the case. We have multiple examples of Banite Sith dying, but the only time a boost is mentioned is during Plagueis' and Palpatine's era. Plagueis experiences a minor increase. Palpatine receives significant growth and equates that to Bane's powers being passed on to him in Book of Sith.

Also, Palpatine became way more powerful after Plagueis died.

That's not what Ancient Sith say in Krayt's era, nor DE.

He believes it's a possibility simply because sorcery isn't something known to him. He's basing his beliefs on pure conjecture.

• If one accepted the tales handed down in accounts and holocrons, the ancient Sith had known how to accomplish this. But had Sith like Naga Sadow and Exar Kun genuinely been more powerful, or had they benefited from the fact that the dark side had been more prominent in those bygone eras?

Something that should be attributed to Palpatine himself, and Bane's power (if you interpret the Banite boost as Palpatine does in Book of Sith), but more importantly: the state of the Force in the galaxy during the prequels.

The dark side is confirmed to be stronger than ever in Dark Empire and Legacy compared to the prequels, TOR or when the Exiles arrived at Korriban. Then you have Vong Krayt and DE Sidious, two Sith who are among the most powerful in the verse, being lectured by ancient nameless Sith. I really don't know where to go from here? All systems of ruling the Sith used turned into complete shitshows eventually. I assume, since the story is old, they couldn't compare the Rule of Two to anything other than TOTJ? But I digress.

The quote is not at all referencing the aforementioned powers. Plagueis is talking about how the ancient Sith could extend their own corporeal lives by absorbing energy released on the deaths of others, a.k.a Drain Life, Death Field, etc. Plagueis concedes that he can't achieve that because he's weaker. The big question he asks himself is: 'why am I weaker?' 'Am I simply inferior?' 'The dark side was more prevalent back then?' Etc. That's not a weird thing to ask because Exar Kun himself couldn't use basic Sorcery without artifacts—later, his concession includes advanced Sorcery-related rituals, but he still made them work because he was powerful and talented in almost every area of the Force. This goes in-depth regarding what Plagueis means.

While midi-chlorians appeared to resist manipulation of a sort that might imperil the balance of the Force, they remained passive, even compliant, in the case of a weak-willed being manipulated by one who was strong in the Force. Perhaps that explained why it was often easier to call on the Force to heal someone other than oneself. Extending life, then, could hinge on something as simple as being able to induce midi-chlorians to create new cells; to subdivide at will, increasing their numbers into the tens of thousands to heal or replace damaged, aging, or metastatic cells. Midi-chlorians had to be compelled to serve the needs of the body; to bestow strength when needed; to overcome physical insult, or prevent cells from reaching senescence.

If one accepted the tales handed down in accounts and holocrons, the ancient Sith had known how to accomplish this. But had Sith like Naga Sadow and Exar Kun genuinely been more powerful, or had they benefited from the fact that the dark side had been more prominent in those bygone eras? Some commentators claimed that the ability to survive death had been limited to those with a talent for sorcery and alchemy, and that the use of such practices actually predated the arrival of the Dark Jedi exiles on Korriban. But sorcery had been employed less to extend life than to create illusions, fashion beasts, and resurrect the dead. Powerful adepts were said to have been able to saturate the atmosphere of planets with dark side energy, compel stars to explode, or induce paralysis in crowds, as Exar Kun apparently did to select members of the Republic Senate. Other adepts used sorcery merely as a means to better understand ancient Sith spells and sigils.

Like whom, Palpatine, Dooku and Vader? Most of them did follow it and accumulate vast amounts of power. Palpatine is the culmination of all that power, which was why he could take over the galaxy almost singlehanded. It's worth nothing that having Maul take on Savage as an apprentice in his era was disturbing the dark side because only two actual Sith Lords are supposed to exist.

I wouldn't attribute that to the Rule of Two. Labyrinth of Evil explicitly tells us that the Banite Sith have been awaiting the birth of one strong enough to face the Jedi and move the grand plan forward. That's Sidious. The base concept of "growing stronger each generation" would not be enough to carry them even if they've been diligent and strictly followed (they didn't) the Rule of Two—they still needed someone with high Force potential to be born and join their line.

Sidious tries to replace Vader multiple times, and Vader trains apprentices of his own. Later in the Empire, Palpatine teaches multiple dark siders, including people that rival or surpass his true apprentice. Sidious writes in the Book of Sith that he follows the Rule of One and doesn't see Vader as his apprentice at all, only as his enforcer. The Sith are playing a game rigged in their favor in the prequels. Vader is in his prime during Revenge of the Sith. He's above Yoda and Sidious, not because of Rule of Two scaling or because he intensely studied the dark side (he hasn't), but simply because, at a base level, he's already with Yoda. Now that the dark side is stronger than ever, and he's channelling all that power, he just yeets past that line.

Same with Dooku. Mace never defeated Dooku in sparring matches, and he's regarded as having Yoda level potential. Post-boost TPM Sidious calls Jedi Dooku "an equal from the other camp" regarding Jedi arts and lightsaber skills. Maul has greater potential than Sidious. Anakin has greater potential than everyone. You have extremely powerful people at a base level and who are supposed to grow to the level they're in. Maul doesn't get the chance to be at that level due to how ****** up his life is, but you get the picture.

This is the main reason why Palpatine, Dooku, Vader and Maul are accumulating vast amounts of power:

"There are few Jedi as long-lived and farsighted as Master Yoda. Throughout his 900 years, he's trained many Jedi and has watched the rise, fall, and resolution of many galaxy-spanning political crises. Yet none have troubled him as deeply as have the Clone Wars and the apparent return of the Sith. Fearing the worst— that the Jedi Order is unraveling and that his own connection to the Force is wavering — Yoda presses to find the Sith Lord who is orchestrating the Republic- Separatist conflict, knowing that if he fails, the entire galaxy will be lost in darkness."

Yoda nodded. “And only those who have turned to the dark side can sense the possibilities of the future.” He could feel Mace’s unquiet at his words, and he understood it well. A good part of the Jedi’s remarkable success came from their ability to anticipate the future. The young ones had always relied on it — perhaps a little too much. Eight hundred years gave one a different perspective. The loss of their ability to see the future didn’t worry Yoda nearly as much as the growing strength of the dark side that had caused the loss.

The Jedi face an uncertain path. Defenders of the peace and justice for centuries, the order is now beleaguered by scattered violence throughout the galaxy, violence sparked by a Separatist movement founded by one of their own. A darkness pervades the galaxy, growing in strength, weakening the Jedi, and clouding the future. Within the Jedi Temple, important decisions are being made that will ultimately determine the fate of the Republic.

Only the Jedi were not surprised. For on Geonosis, Obi-Wan Kenobi and his Padawan apprentice, Anakin Skywalker, had learned that Count Dooku had turned to the dark side of the Force — and the power of the dark side had been growing for years. The Jedi knew that defeating the Separatists would be neither quick nor easy with a Dark Lord of the Sith aiding them.

Yoda senses the full power of the dark side in AOTC. By TCW S6, the full power he previously sensed is just a fraction of what the Sith now have. Order 66 tilts the balance even further.

This is a much more consistent way to reconcile their mega-growth with canon. The Rule of Two is too inconsistent and contradictory. I get your main point and I won't even try arguing against you in this point in the upcoming revision thread (only interested in Godooku, OT vs PT and Anakin), but I genuinely believe the Rule of Two scaling to be extremely wacky.

 

[ByAsura]

[sorcery]

Ok, I thought you were using it to say he's weakling. I'll just move on from this, then.

67BBY Plagueis surpasses Tenebrous. So you have one of the final members of the Banite line being weaker to a random Jedi Master.

If it's true, I'll concede, but I can't find anything on them being equal. All I can find is that his potential could be a threat to Plagueis, so he was quashed. The fact that this guy is Venamis' second choice and was barely trained by him makes me strongly doubt that this guy is anywhere close to Teneborous.

TPM Maul is "equally as formidable" as TPM Sidious, and many more quotes support that notion. I have no issue with that. Lucas clarified that Sidious has always looked for someone who is > himself in Force potential. More of Banite boost below.

I'm not doubting you here, but could I have the source? Just out of curiosity.

Zannah can't get past a lesser Force shield that Bane summons while weakened and distracted. Zannah can't absorb or directly counter Bane's Force attacks at all. Bane goes insane mid-fight; she still can't do anything. Bane is drugged; she can't do any significant damage. The fight only changes when she uses a power that's not hers. I can accept that they're comparable, but near-equal or equal is too much.

He withstood the blow, but it was far from tanking it, and she's more than capable of doing the same to his basic attacks (as she herself does in the final fight). What they can't do is block each other's force lightning.

• He began to gather the dark side, the power slowly building. But before he could unleash it he was hit by a wall of thunderous force rolling out from a corridor to his left. Instinctively he threw up a defensive shield, absorbing the blow. Despite this, he was slammed against the opposite wall, knocking the breath from his lungs.
• Simple tactics like pushing an opponent from across the room were impractical against any foe with proper training. Both she and Bane knew how to surround themselves with an invisible field of energy that absorbed or repelled the most basic tricks taught to any Jedi or Sith. But Bane could unleash devastating bolts of dark side lightning from his hands almost at will.
• Scrambling to stay on her feet, Zannah raised her weapon back up, spinning the handle so that the twirling blades formed a defensive wall that repelled Bane's next half a dozen blows.

That's because he's just a better swordsman, as I showed in the previous post, and his significantly greater strength (as I will show later). Even then, she could still block them after falling over and having Bane crack her ribs.

• His style back then had been brutish and simple, though undeniably effective. Now, however, his technique was more advanced. Unable to simply bully his way heedlessly forward, he had developed an unpredictable, seemingly random style. Each time she thought she could anticipate where the next attack was coming from, he changed tactics, disrupting the rhythm of the battle and causing her to give ground.
• He opened with a series of two‐handed overhead chops, using his great height to bring his blade hacking down at her from above. She easily blocked each blow, but the momentum of the crushing impact caused her to stagger back, throwing her off balance.
• The next few seconds were a blur as Zannah relied purely on instincts honed over twenty years to parry the wave of blows, miraculously keeping him from landing a lethal strike.

That's earlier in the novel, and Bane was barely weakened by the lingering portion of drugs (even less by the time he actually fought her, let alone the time of their final fight). She was more powerful at this juncture, and forced him to retreat at every turn, but wasn't used to being the aggressor (her fighting style is defensive and he's a better swordsman) and couldn't simply rush in because of his greater physical strength.

• Whatever the explanation, Bane knew one thing for certain: He didn't want to face Zannah right now. Not while he was still recovering from the toxins Serra had used to render him helpless, and certainly not without his lightsaber.
• Bane could still feel the lingering effects of the drugs in his system. He'd done what he could to burn them away with the fire of the dark side, but the Sith were not as adept as the Jedi at cleansing their systems of impurities. The last dregs of the chemicals would simply have to break down naturally over time. Until then he would be at less than full strength. A fraction slower in thoughts and actions, less adept at wielding the power of the Force. And he was still without his lightsaber.
• Bane let his right hand drop to his hip, feinting as if he was preparing to draw his lightsaber. His only chance to survive was to somehow trick her into backing down. Zannah's eyes flickered, drawn by the subtle motion. He kept his hand open, his massive palm completely covering the place where she would normally be able to see the hilt of his lightsaber clipped to his belt. With his mind he tried to project an image of his hook‐handled weapon resting just beneath his empty fingers. His apprentice didn't move. She stayed in her defensive stance, her brow furrowing as she weighed her chances. Then her gaze fell on Bane's left hand, quivering ever so slightly with one of the uncontrollable tremors. "You allowed yourself to be captured by mercenaries," she said, slowly twirling her weapon and taking a confident step forward. They were facing each other, clearly locked in an intense struggle. The prisoner was nearly twice the size of his opponent, but she was clearly the aggressor. The woman was armed with a double‐bladed lightsaber, but the prisoner had no weapon as far as Serra could tell. He was backing up warily, his eyes locked on the woman as she approached. She was closing in on him slowly, trying to back him into a corner and cut off his retreat. Just before she had him pinned, however, a bolt of violet lightning shot forth from his palm. The woman countered by catching the bolt with one of her lightsaber blades. It absorbed the energy, emitting the strange, high‐pitched hum Serra had heard earlier. The two combatants were so focused on each other that neither had noticed Serra.
• Zannah wasn't used to being the aggressor. In all the times she and Bane had sparred he had been the one pressing the action. Her lightsaber style was built on a foundation of parries and counterstrikes, hiding behind her virtually impenetrable defense while waiting for her opponent to make a mistake. This confrontation was completely different. Yet even though Bane had no lightsaber, that didn't mean he was helpless. Zannah knew she couldn't simply rush in: despite his bulk, Bane was incredibly quick and agile. He had also learned close‐quarters pit‐fighting tactics during his days as a miner and soldier. She had to be wary of letting him get close enough to grapple her; she couldn't let him get the opportunity to use his size and strength against her. There was also his incredible command of the Force to contend with. Simple tactics like pushing an opponent from across the room were impractical against any foe with proper training. Both she and Bane knew how to surround themselves with an invisible field of energy that absorbed or repelled the most basic tricks taught to any Jedi or Sith. But Bane could unleash devastating bolts of dark side lightning from his hands almost at will. As long as she was careful, she was able to avoid them or intercept them with her lightsaber. This caution, however, allowed her Master to keep her off balance just enough to stay alive. The pair were entwined in an intricate dance.
• And then it came to her. She had tried to defeat him using brute force; she had fought the battle on his terms. She would never be Bane's equal in physical strength. He would always be superior to her in martial skill. So why had she tried to defeat him in lightsaber combat, when her true talents lay elsewhere?

Some of those weren't even part of the final fight. It was mostly an even bout until she fell over a rock.

Even the author says they're equal by that final fight, so I don't know what to tell you.

The author is wrong in this case.

Whether or not the author is wrong isn't my point. You attempted to use this book as proof that the Rule of Two failed, and I'm showing you that even the author himself disagrees with this notion.

Among all Sith Lords, their first and final apprentices, only a few even followed the Rule of Two. A lot of them are described as untalented, weak and incompetent.

Most of that is them just not sticking to the fine print. They have assassins and inquisitors trained in the dark side, but not actual Sith Lords like themselves.

You've said this multiple times and haven't given me an actual statement that they're weak and incompetent, or at least more weak and incompetent than the past Sith that destroyed themselves.

Drew wrote that Bane tried to possess her and then disappeared after—neither are the case.

Why isn't that the case? Your logic later in this line of reasoning gives absolutely no reason as to why Bane didn't try to possess her and fail.

We have multiple examples of Banite Sith dying, but the only time a boost is mentioned is during Plagueis' and Palpatine's era. Plagueis experiences a minor increase. Palpatine receives significant growth and equates that to Bane's powers being passed on to him in Book of Sith.

Again, the boost isn't really my point. They still get stronger and stronger down the line with or without it, as I've shown in those quotes.

Something that should be attributed to Palpatine himself, and Bane's power (if you interpret the Banite boost as Palpatine does in Book of Sith), but more importantly: the state of the Force in the galaxy during the prequels.

The state of the galaxy partially (Plagueis and Sidious already did some tampering) changed just because Sidious was anointed to the dark side. You're basically claiming he was amped by his own power.

The dark side is confirmed to be stronger than ever in Dark Empire and Legacy compared to the prequels, TOR or when the Exiles arrived at Korriban. Then you have Vong Krayt and DE Sidious, two Sith who are among the most powerful in the verse, being lectured by ancient nameless Sith. I really don't know where to go from here? All systems of ruling the Sith used turned into complete shitshows eventually. I assume, since the story is old, they couldn't compare the Rule of Two to anything other than TOTJ? But I digress.

Dead Sith who've been rulers of empires for centuries and have arcane abilities that these people don't.

As Obi-Wan says, death makes people infinitely more powerful.

The second story is from 2006, actually.

The quote is not at all referencing the aforementioned powers. Plagueis is talking about how the ancient Sith could extend their own corporeal lives by absorbing energy released on the deaths of others, a.k.a Drain Life, Death Field, etc. Plagueis concedes that he can't achieve that because he's weaker. The big question he asks himself is: 'why am I weaker?' 'Am I simply inferior?' 'The dark side was more prevalent back then?' Etc. That's not a weird thing to ask because Exar Kun himself couldn't use basic Sorcery without artifacts—later, his concession includes advanced Sorcery-related rituals, but he still made them work because he was powerful and talented in almost every area of the Force. This goes in-depth regarding what Plagueis means.

He never says anything about those kind powers. He's just outright referring to sorcery and midi-chlorian manipulation.

• While midi-chlorians appeared to resist manipulation of a sort that might imperil the balance of the Force, they remained passive, even compliant, in the case of a weak-willed being manipulated by one who was strong in the Force. Perhaps that explained why it was often easier to call on the Force to heal someone other than oneself. Extending life, then, could hinge on something as simple as being able to induce midi-chlorians to create new cells; to subdivide at will, increasing their numbers into the tens of thousands to heal or replace induce midi-chlorians to create new cells; to subdivide at will, increasing their numbers into the tens of thousands to heal or replace damaged, aging, or metastatic cells. Midi-chlorians had to be compelled to serve the needs of the body; to bestow strength when needed; to overcome physical insult, or prevent cells from reaching senescence.

Again, Plagueis concedes nothing. He speculates that they could be more powerful. In truth, they just had knowledge that was destroyed.

They could use Sith magic to blow up entire stars. Plagueis doesn't even have knowledge of this stuff or artefacts to use them. You yourself are even arguing that Zannah is a decent bit less powerful than Bane, despite her being an order of magnitude better at sorcery.

The thread doesn't say anything new and makes some huge leaps in logic, so I'm not going to bother with it.

I wouldn't attribute that to the Rule of Two. Labyrinth of Evil explicitly tells us that the Banite Sith have been awaiting the birth of one strong enough to face the Jedi and move the grand plan forward. That's Sidious.

The context is just that they were waiting for the emergence of someone powerful. It doesn't really mention force potential.

• In self-exile for a thousand years, the Sith had not merely been waiting for an appropriate time to reemerge and exact revenge, but for the birth of one strong enough to embrace the dark side full and become its dedicated instrument. This was Sidious: powerful enough to hide in plain sight.

The base concept of "growing stronger each generation" would not be enough to carry them even if they've been diligent and strictly followed (they didn't) the Rule of Two—they still needed someone with high Force potential to be born and join their line.

Fair point, I suppose. I'll drop this.

Still, though, Banites do typically get stronger and stronger.

Vader is in his prime during Revenge of the Sith. He's above Yoda and Sidious, not because of Rule of Two scaling or because he intensely studied the dark side (he hasn't), but simply because, at a base level, he's already with Yoda. Now that the dark side is stronger than ever, and he's channelling all that power, he just yeets past that line.

Kind of a nitpick, but Anakin was outright created because the Banites were attempting to tamper with the Force. Instead of swaying the dark side even further, the Force got pissed off and made a Chosen One to re-balance the Force. He is very much an exception.

Also, Vader actually surpasses Anakin by ANH, not that it matters too much. Kind of proves your point about potential, if anything, because his power and potential were massively hampered.

Yoda senses the full power of the dark side in AOTC. By TCW S6, the full power he previously sensed is just a fraction of what the Sith now have. Order 66 tilts the balance even further.

Yes, because these all-powerful dark siders are the ones tipping the balance. It's not that they're playing a rigged game, it's that they've tampered with the game.

This is a much more consistent way to reconcile their mega-growth with canon. The Rule of Two is too inconsistent and contradictory. I get your main point and I won't even try arguing against you in this point in the upcoming revision thread (only interested in Godooku, OT vs PT and Anakin), but I genuinely believe the Rule of Two scaling to be extremely wacky.

Rule of Two is extremely consistent, even the novelization of RoTJ. So far I haven't actually seen you provide any quotes that outright show proof of this, just the claim that it's completely wrong because there's a few fuckups down the line.

Btw, I'm using your Thron quotes. I hope you don't mind.

 

[ArgosaxDespair]

Then you have Vong Krayt and DE Sidious, two Sith who are among the most powerful in the verse, being lectured by ancient nameless Sith. I

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

Visions was great.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

A good start for Vision, the episode 1 was so "Kurosawa-ish"

 

[aeneax]

If it's true, I'll concede, but I can't find anything on them being equal. All I can find is that his potential could be a threat to Plagueis, so he was quashed. The fact that this guy is Venamis' second choice and was barely trained by him makes me strongly doubt that this guy is anywhere close to Teneborous.

I don't have the quote, but I will find it when I get home from work. I remember that the confrontation happens around pages 80-90. Plagueis remembers the events around 10 pages from that, so 91-101. One phrase I remember clearly from that passage is "The Sith line would continue through him or not at all." If you use an Ebook Reader, you can probably find it. Otherwise I'll post it later.

I'm not doubting you here, but could I have the source? Just out of curiosity.

I don't know if you're talking about Lucas' quotes or Maul's quote, so I'll post both.

There is an entire reactive scaling chain on TPM Maul vs TPM Sheev. Duel on Hypori was serious according to OOU and Plagueis, and Sheev almost loses. Stated by OOU to be "the deadliest Sith warrior in the galaxy," and an "incredible duelist second only, perhaps, to Darth Sidious." Palpatine says twice that Maul's skills are "nonpareil" and "peerless." The time frame doesn't make this an inconsistency at all. We can discuss it on a deeper level if you want.

Lucas' quote:

“That’s what Siths do! He tries it with anybody he thinks might be more powerful, which is what the Emperor was looking for in the first place: somebody who would be more powerful than he was and could help him rule the universe. But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting off his arms and legs and burning him up. From then on, he wasn’t as strong as the Emperor – he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He wasn’t what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that.“

He withstood the blow, but it was far from tanking it, and she's more than capable of doing the same to his basic attacks (as she herself does in the final fight). What they can't do is block each other's force lightning.

I re-read the all of the fights and yeah, thinking about it now, it appears that it is a mostly equal confrontation.

Whether or not the author is wrong isn't my point. You attempted to use this book as proof that the Rule of Two failed, and I'm showing you that even the author himself disagrees with this notion.

Why isn't that the case? Your logic later in this line of reasoning gives absolutely no reason as to why Bane didn't try to possess her and fail.

The part of the book that I cucked on was about Zannah vs Bane. The part where's he's wrong is that Bane doesn't try to possess her and doesn't disappear, as Sidious believes Bane's power resides within him.

Most of that is them just not sticking to the fine print. They have assassins and inquisitors trained in the dark side, but not actual Sith Lords like themselves.

You've said this multiple times and haven't given me an actual statement that they're weak and incompetent, or at least more weak and incompetent than the past Sith that destroyed themselves.

Plagueis ditched the Rule of Two, Tenebrous ditched it and it is stated that others have done the same before them. Palpatine goes full-on Krayt in Book of Sith. So you have precedence of this happening per their own words.

These are two quotes about previous Sith Lords. By these quotes, you can see that there is literally no difference between the Banite and ancient Sith, except now the mental illness is concentrated in a few individuals.

"And yet, while all Sith Lords were powerful, not all were brilliant or in complete possession of the powers the dark side granted them."

"Like Plagueis, Tenebrous had obviously embraced the fact that Darth Bane's Rule of Two had expired. Precious few Sith Lords had honored it, in any case, and with good reason, as Plagueis saw it. The goals of the Grand Plan were revenge and the reacquisition of galactic power. But while most Sith Lords since Bane had in their own fashion helped to weaken the Republic, their efforts had owed less to selflessness and allegiance to the Rule than to weakness and incompetence. Driven to discharge Bane's imperative they might have been, and yet each had fallen prey to individual foibles and eccentricities, and so had failed to exact revenge on the the Jedi Order."

Again, the boost isn't really my point. They still get stronger and stronger down the line with or without it, as I've shown in those quotes.

I wish Legends was that simple.

The state of the galaxy partially (Plagueis and Sidious already did some tampering) changed just because Sidious was anointed to the dark side. You're basically claiming he was amped by his own power.

The state of the galaxy and Sidious are tied to each other, but not in that way. You can say that they feed off each other and that Sidious' holistic placement caused it, but the galaxy-wide dark side nexus is far more haxxy and powerful than Sidious (it can weaken and dull Yoda's abilities when he's far above Sidious) and can grow independent of him. War, aggression and a lot of negative things feeds the dark side, as well.

With the Jedi Order overextended, spread thin across the galaxy, each Jedi is alone, surrounded only by whatever clone troops he, she, or it commands. War itself pours darkness into the Force, deepening the cloud that limits Jedi perception.

Filoni says that the state of the galaxy between TPM and TCW S3 is so different that he likened it to two completely "pools of water."

“He gets it when Savage says ‘the Clone Wars,’ there’s conflict, that’s what it is. He knows, he can sense that because to him, when he is alive in Phantom Menace then when he’s reborn in our time during the Clone Wars, it’s like he’s dropped into two different pools of water - one is salt, one is not. When he’s reborn he goes ‘Oh my gosh, everything is different now,’ because remember the shroud of the dark side has fallen. It’s clouding everything. So when Obi-Wan says it’s a fertile place for Maul to flourish, meaning the underworld, but the galaxy as it exists now is a fertile place for Maul to flourish because he’s so powerful within the dark side, because he’s able to channel it because of his teachings from Sidious and now he’s kind of backed by the Mother Talzin magic. He’s got a bit of that in him as well.”

Dead Sith who've been rulers of empires for centuries and have arcane abilities that these people don't.

As Obi-Wan says, death makes people infinitely more powerful.

The second story is from 2006, actually.

They have knowledge, definitely.

Those spirits are sustained by the Force nexus of Korriban. That nexus was noted to be almost completely out of power in Path of Destruction, "this had once been a place of great power, though now only the merest shadows remain," "Korriban was alive with the dark side. Yet the feeling had been faint and distant." Palpatine reaffirms the same thing in Book of Sith, "Korriban has lost potency over the past 7000 years, but it still whispers of dark secrets." I don't believe that they're more powerful, just that later iterations of Sidious are pathetic. Palpatine is just incredibly unstable after ROTS, that's why he's dumber and crazier. Gets kidnapped and almost killed and has to be rescued, scrap guardians are equipped to defeat him, against Thok (Luke one-shots Tok in ROTJ lmao), Lyn and a Stormtrooper who he could fry to death, he finds a way to lose, random mummified spirits almost beat him to death, etc etc.

I was talking about DE mainly because they explicitly talk about Vader's throne being empty. Legacy is on a different side because Krayt is not wrong. He made the dark side stronger and imbalanced the Force, which is the goal.

He never says anything about those kind powers. He's just outright referring to sorcery and midi-chlorian manipulation.

I think I got side-tracked and ended up creating an argument that I shouldn't have to be honest.

Plagueis concedes that he can't replicate: Alter Environment, large scale lightning, flight, become invisible or teleport. I then gave Argosax examples of people less powerful, less talented and with less knowledge than Plagueis using those powers. That was my point initially before it became what Plagueis actually means regarding Drain Life and midi-chlorians. Plagueis can't replicate them because he approaches the Force in an aggressive, commanding way and misinterprets it as simply energy. Plagueis is more powerful than them, and like Exar Kun, he can replicate them just by having a change of mentality. But what makes Plagueis a blind idiot is that he doesn't have a change of mentality.

Again, Plagueis concedes nothing. He speculates that they could be more powerful. In truth, they just had knowledge that was destroyed.

They could use Sith magic to blow up entire stars. Plagueis doesn't even have knowledge of this stuff or artefacts to use them. You yourself are even arguing that Zannah is a decent bit less powerful than Bane, despite her being an order of magnitude better at sorcery.

The thread doesn't say anything new and makes some huge leaps in logic, so I'm not going to bother with it.

I concede this point. If Ant's case didn't convince you, I know all too well I can't.

Kind of a nitpick, but Anakin was outright created because the Banites were attempting to tamper with the Force. Instead of swaying the dark side even further, the Force got pissed off and made a Chosen One to re-balance the Force. He is very much an exception.

Also, Vader actually surpasses Anakin by ANH, not that it matters too much. Kind of proves your point about potential, if anything, because his power and potential were massively hampered.

That's fine, you can use Dooku, Garth Ezzar, Sai Sircu, Maul to illustrate the power growth.

Now, Vader vs Anakin is a pretty clear-cut answer that shouldn't cause big discussions. It's a G-canon matter that has been settled a long time ago in favor of Anakin.

Rule of Two is extremely consistent, even the novelization of RoTJ. So far I haven't actually seen you provide any quotes that outright show proof of this, just the claim that it's completely wrong because there's a few fuckups down the line.

Btw, I'm using your Thron quotes. I hope you don't mind.

It's like what I said before; if you believe that this system the Banite created in ditching the Rule of Two is more powerful, then by all means, I'll respect that. The Rule of Two, as Bane established, did not see much success in later stages. They ditched it, people started behaving like the ancient Sith they were supposed to oppose, the final three and most powerful members didn't believe in it at all. I have reasonable reason to believe that it is not the greatest thing ever.

That's fine. It was scanned by AP from SI if memory serves.

 

[aeneax]

You have Krayt in your top 10 you ******* great supine protoplasmic invertebrate jelly

 

[Artorimachi_Meteoraft]

Spoiler: in his 2001 honda civic, yoda is

 

[ByAsura]

The part of the book that I cucked on was about Zannah vs Bane. The part where's he's wrong is that Bane doesn't try to possess her and doesn't disappear, as Sidious believes Bane's power resides within him.

Bane doesn't disappear completely, he just dies in the corporeal sense after failing. His spirit there existed as the same sort of formless unfathomable energies that Palpatine did and failed to possess Zannah, so he was trapped in the dark side for eternity. This is something he feared.

Plagueis ditched the Rule of Two, Tenebrous ditched it and it is stated that others have done the same before them. Palpatine goes full-on Krayt in Book of Sith. So you have precedence of this happening per their own words.

They surpassed and killed their masters, though, especially Teneborous.

Once again, Palpatine's actions afterwards doesn't count.

These are two quotes about previous Sith Lords. By these quotes, you can see that there is literally no difference between the Banite and ancient Sith, except now the mental illness is concentrated in a few individuals.

The first one says some of their skills don't quite match up.

The second one doesn't actually say they abandoned the 'two' aspect of the Rule of Two, it says they took their focus off taking over the galaxy. Pretty much all of these guys equalled or surpassed and killed their masters.

The state of the galaxy and Sidious are tied to each other, but not in that way. You can say that they feed off each other and that Sidious' holistic placement caused it, but the galaxy-wide dark side nexus is far more haxxy and powerful than Sidious (it can weaken and dull Yoda's abilities when he's far above Sidious) and can grow independent of him. War, aggression and a lot of negative things feeds the dark side, as well.

Filoni says that the state of the galaxy between TPM and TCW S3 is so different that he likened it to two completely "pools of water."

Palpatine was still stronger than pretty much any Sith even years before the Clone Wars, though.

Those spirits are sustained by the Force nexus of Korriban. That nexus was noted to be almost completely out of power in Path of Destruction, "this had once been a place of great power, though now only the merest shadows remain," "Korriban was alive with the dark side. Yet the feeling had been faint and distant." Palpatine reaffirms the same thing in Book of Sith, "Korriban has lost potency over the past 7000 years, but it still whispers of dark secrets."

I mean, two of those spirits were able to come back to life at later points in time. It's probably accurate that only a handful actually show up, and on the birthplace of the Sith no less.

I don't believe that they're more powerful, just that later iterations of Sidious are pathetic. Palpatine is just incredibly unstable after ROTS, that's why he's dumber and crazier. Gets kidnapped and almost killed and has to be rescued, scrap guardians are equipped to defeat him, against Thok (Luke one-shots Tok in ROTJ lmao), Lyn and a Stormtrooper who he could fry to death, he finds a way to lose, random mummified spirits almost beat him to death, etc etc.

Palpatine is more powerful, actually. He says in the Book of the Sith that he's been deepening his abilities with the Jedi Temple. Also, Palpatine would go on to one-shot Luke pretty easily, so it's just an outlier for Thok and those guys.

I was talking about DE mainly because they explicitly talk about Vader's throne being empty.

I don't get your point.

Legacy is on a different side because Krayt is not wrong. He made the dark side stronger and imbalanced the Force, which is the goal.

It may be the goal, but he was diluting powers from everywhere else by just taking it for himself. Krayt was also dying (he's at his weakest here, IIRC), so they decreed him as weak.

Plagueis concedes that he can't replicate: Alter Environment, large scale lightning, flight, become invisible or teleport. I then gave Argosax examples of people less powerful, less talented and with less knowledge than Plagueis using those powers. That was my point initially before it became what Plagueis actually means regarding Drain Life and midi-chlorians. Plagueis can't replicate them because he approaches the Force in an aggressive, commanding way and misinterprets it as simply energy. Plagueis is more powerful than them, and like Exar Kun, he can replicate them just by having a change of mentality. But what makes Plagueis a blind idiot is that he doesn't have a change of mentality.

I agree here, and it's what I've been trying to say.

Now, Vader vs Anakin is a pretty clear-cut answer that shouldn't cause big discussions. It's a G-canon matter that has been settled a long time ago in favor of Anakin.

This is kind of why we're separating the outward EU of Star Wars (where Vader eventually surpasses Anakin) from Lucas' portrayal. They're very different animals.

 

[ArgosaxDespair]

You have Krayt in your top 10 you ******* great supine protoplasmic invertebrate jelly

but how do you reconcile Krayt vs. Abeloth and then Krayt vs. Muur and later having problems dealing with Wyrlok and Cade? i have him in that position based on the fate of the jedi portrayal because he's contextualy more powerful than Vol or Taalon but you have legacy Krayt above that Krayt

 

[aeneax]

Bane doesn't disappear completely, he just dies in the corporeal sense after failing. His spirit there existed as the same sort of formless unfathomable energies that Palpatine did and failed to possess Zannah, so he was trapped in the dark side for eternity. This is something he feared.

Palpatine has Bane's power as of the time he's writing his dark side compendium, which would require Bane's power to still exist in the living world. The problem is trying to connect the happenings between the Bane trilogy and later stories. Zannah doesn't have Bane's power to allow it to be passed on to later generations, and the final book does state that Bane is essentially vanishing. IIRC, Bane wanted Essence Transfer should his apprentice not live up to the expectations—as well as him growing old and past his prime—so he'd have another shot at training one.

They surpassed and killed their masters, though, especially Teneborous.

Once again, Palpatine's actions afterwards doesn't count.

The quotes supporting that notion are problematic to deal with, which is why I don't like to interpret them literally. There are around six quotes on Banite growth, only two of those actually state that each generation is growing stronger linearly. The others are talking about the Banite in a global manner, which would include Sidious. He is part of that Order, but his deeds and feats can't be attributed to the Rule of Two. Another quote state that their power growing is directly tied into their knowledge growth, which Gravid halts in the middle of the line, so you have that disconnect between pre-Gravid Sith and post-Gravid Sith to properly establish a comparison. The main reason I believe the novel statements would take precedence is due to its canonical level, and that the novel is essentially about the Rule of Two itself, while other sources are only giving stray statements on it.

Palpatine was influenced by Plagues' ideas regarding the Rule of Two from the very beginning.

"How often you said that the old order of Bane had ended with the death of your Master. An apprentice no longer needs to be stronger, you told me, merely more clever. The era of keeping score, suspicion and betrayal was over. Strength lies not in the flesh but in the Force."

Palpatine was still stronger than pretty much any Sith even years before the Clone Wars, though.

If Palpatine is stated to be more powerful than any Sith in 2001, that will bind any Sith created prior to that date below him, but even then it can be dubious because the Holocron database does not record powers levels. Characters like Malak, Malgus or Karness Muur will not be bound by a 2001 statement in any way (though you can argue that Palpatine might beat them) despite them being from an earlier time of the in-universe chronology. Recency is actually a pillar in LFL policy.

I mean, two of those spirits were able to come back to life at later points in time. It's probably accurate that only a handful actually show up, and on the birthplace of the Sith no less.

The Korriban nexus is very weak during the Clone Wars and before that. DE and earlier sources portray it as extremely dangerous, though. Plagueis doesn't think Korriban is worth visiting and says the place is full of tomb raiders, tourists and treasure hunters. In the Clone Wars era, its dangerousness drops to the point where the nexus' power can't even obfuscate Omega's next to non-existent power. Vjun and the Jedi Temple are > all known light and dark side nexuses, and their potency doesn't allow anyone to achieve what can be achieved with DE Koriban. I assume this is more likely due to Tom Veitch's views on the Sith than anything else. He doesn't portray them like we usually do, with multiple tiers separating them, etc.

Palpatine is more powerful, actually. He says in the Book of the Sith that he's been deepening his abilities with the Jedi Temple. Also, Palpatine would go on to one-shot Luke pretty easily, so it's just an outlier for Thok and those guys.

Palpatine is far more powerful than them and Luke, he just isn't smart after Episode III. Then he dies in ROTJ and loses part of himself. Outlier would be Thok defeating Palpatine one-on-one. It's Palpatine's dumbness that makes him lose all those times.

It may be the goal, but he was diluting powers from everywhere else by just taking it for himself. Krayt was also dying (he's at his weakest here, IIRC), so they decreed him as weak.

Vong Legacy Krayt is at his weakest because the Vong parasites are ******* him up for a long time already. They can destroy your body and dull your connection to the Force. He comes back stronger than ever after getting rid of them.

This is kind of why we're separating the outward EU of Star Wars (where Vader eventually surpasses Anakin) from Lucas' portrayal. They're very different animals.

Quoting Canon and Considerations:

Contrary to common fan belief, and even despite Lucas' lack of involvement or knowledge of most Expanded Universe affairs, the LFL universe is generally beholden to Lucas' universe and whims. That is, explicitly per Leland Chee, the LFL universe "is definitely beholden to Lucas' vision", "must follow certain tenets set by George through the films and other guidelines that he provides outside of the films", "is bound by directives from George Lucas", "would have to bend to fit George's current vision", etc. Indeed, "as always, a story line direct from George Lucas trumps publishing continuity".

The EU itself recognizes Lucas as their Supreme, Elevated God. They manage to get some wrong quotes through because some Lucas licensing folks are greedy crabs who enjoy scheming and don't care about the validity of something that will sell 5 copies in 30 years. When talking to Lucas directly regarding important Legends works, this is the answer they get.

I recall around nine to ten C-canon quotes that outright say Vader surpassed Anakin, and a lot of them are from the Bantam Spectra books or Dark Empire-related content, decades before Anakin was even created. Hidalgo (twice), Wizards of the Coast, Star Wars Encyclopedia, lore cards about the OT, lore pieces on TPM, Figurine Collection and The Complete Vader all stay true to Lucas' vision.

 

[aeneax]

but how do you reconcile Krayt vs. Abeloth and then Krayt vs. Muur and later having problems dealing with Wyrlok and Cade? i have him in that position based on the fate of the jedi portrayal because he's contextualy more powerful than Vol or Taalon but you have legacy Krayt above that Krayt

Ok.

Vong FOTJ Krayt fights Abeloth. He can contend with her and injure her.

Krayt then enters the Legacy era, where he's weaker than before due to the Vong parasites. He wants to restore the power he had.

In a reckless bid to right one of his many past wrongs, Cade Skywalker has become a prisoner of the Sith. It's a banner day for Emperor Darth Krayt, who hopes that Skywalker's abilities will complete Krayt's longtime quest to restore his own power.

Krayt gets rid of the parasites and restores his power.

It's as simple as Darth Krayt Reborn > FOTJ Vong Krayt > Legacy Vong Krayt.

 

[ByAsura]

Palpatine has Bane's power as of the time he's writing his dark side compendium, which would require Bane's power to still exist in the living world. The problem is trying to connect the happenings between the Bane trilogy and later stories. Zannah doesn't have Bane's power to allow it to be passed on to later generations, and the final book does state that Bane is essentially vanishing. IIRC, Bane wanted Essence Transfer should his apprentice not live up to the expectations—as well as him growing old and past his prime—so he'd have another shot at training one.

Why would Bane need to exist within the living world? Nothing states this to be the case, and even a minute portion of him survived in Zannah. Palpatine, for example, could still pick clone receptacles in a similar state.

The quotes supporting that notion are problematic to deal with, which is why I don't like to interpret them literally. There are around six quotes on Banite growth, only two of those actually state that each generation is growing stronger linearly. The others are talking about the Banite in a global manner, which would include Sidious. He is part of that Order, but his deeds and feats can't be attributed to the Rule of Two. Another quote state that their power growing is directly tied into their knowledge growth, which Gravid halts in the middle of the line, so you have that disconnect between pre-Gravid Sith and post-Gravid Sith to properly establish a comparison.

Can I have all six of these quotes?

Edit: Actually, I have a copy of the Book of Sith. Here's Palpatine saying his power was passed down to all of these apprentices.

The main reason I believe the novel statements would take precedence is due to its canonical level, and that the novel is essentially about the Rule of Two itself, while other sources are only giving stray statements on it.

You don't really have novel quotes, though. Your quotes only prove that some of these guys strayed from galactic domination, they don't even begin to suggest that these people didn't equal or surpass their masters each generation, and even mentioned that the Sith continued to have this master-apprentice, apprentice = master dynamic. Plus, I'm pretty sure the TPM Scrapbook would have similar involvement from George Lucas or his production staff.

Palpatine was influenced by Plagues' ideas regarding the Rule of Two from the very beginning.

I'll concede here because I actually found a quote that Palpatine would have lost if he just straight up fought Plagueis.

Recency is actually a pillar in LFL policy.

The latest I can find is 2008.

The Korriban nexus is very weak during the Clone Wars and before that. DE and earlier sources portray it as extremely dangerous, though. Plagueis doesn't think Korriban is worth visiting and says the place is full of tomb raiders, tourists and treasure hunters. In the Clone Wars era, its dangerousness drops to the point where the nexus' power can't even obfuscate Omega's next to non-existent power. Vjun and the Jedi Temple are > all known light and dark side nexuses, and their potency doesn't allow anyone to achieve what can be achieved with DE Koriban. I assume this is more likely due to Tom Veitch's views on the Sith than anything else. He doesn't portray them like we usually do, with multiple tiers separating them, etc.

Palpatine didn't visit DE Koriban, all he did was summon existing Sith (Sith that would continue to live until far later than Order 66) onto Byss. Palpatine, by this point, had mastered most dark side powers.

Edit: Palpatine also says that, while Koriban has weakened over 7,000 years, it still "whispers of dark secrets."

Palpatine is far more powerful than them and Luke, he just isn't smart after Episode III. Then he dies in ROTJ and loses part of himself. Outlier would be Thok defeating Palpatine one-on-one. It's Palpatine's dumbness that makes him lose all those times.

So Palpatine isn't weakened at all, he's just complacent. Then this point doesn't really matter, especially since you're now showing that the galaxy was even more clouded.

Vong Legacy Krayt is at his weakest because the Vong parasites are ******* him up for a long time already. They can destroy your body and dull your connection to the Force. He comes back stronger than ever after getting rid of them.

Exactly, this is weakened Krayt. This just proves my point and was exactly what I was saying.

Quoting Canon and Considerations:

Contrary to common fan belief, and even despite Lucas' lack of involvement or knowledge of most Expanded Universe affairs, the LFL universe is generally beholden to Lucas' universe and whims. That is, explicitly per Leland Chee, the LFL universe "is definitely beholden to Lucas' vision", "must follow certain tenets set by George through the films and other guidelines that he provides outside of the films", "is bound by directives from George Lucas", "would have to bend to fit George's current vision", etc. Indeed, "as always, a story line direct from George Lucas trumps publishing continuity".

The EU itself recognizes Lucas as their Supreme, Elevated God. They manage to get some wrong quotes through because some Lucas licensing folks are greedy crabs who enjoy scheming and don't care about the validity of something that will sell 5 copies in 30 years. When talking to Lucas directly regarding important Legends works, this is the answer they get.

Lucas still has less overall input on the and generally portrays his characters as far weaker. Yoda struggles to stop large objects, and the best Starfighters (not even a Starfighter technically, just the Slave I) have are City Block level feats.

Even in your screenshot here, portrayal is very much regarded.

I recall around nine to ten C-canon quotes that outright say Vader surpassed Anakin, and a lot of them are from the Bantam Spectra books or Dark Empire-related content, decades before Anakin was even created. Hidalgo (twice), Wizards of the Coast, Star Wars Encyclopedia, lore cards about the OT, lore pieces on TPM, Figurine Collection and The Complete Vader all stay true to Lucas' vision.

There's also the novelization of RoTJ and A New Hope. IIRC, a boat load of those quotes that say

 

[Dalesean027]

Even though the stories aren't canon will we be getting star wars vision profiles because some of those feats are genuinely crazy like

Spoiler

Karre cleaving the star destroyer in half

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Even though the stories aren't canon will we be getting star wars vision profiles because some of those feats are genuinely crazy like

Spoiler

Karre cleaving the star destroyer in half

Spoiler

Length wise or Width wise?

 

[Dalesean027]

Spoiler

Length wise or Width wise?

Length

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Length

HOLY ******* SHIT!

 

[Dalesean027]

HOLY ******* SHIT!

Spoiler

Does it from on top of a ship with 1 slash of his saber

And yes he can breathe in space

 

[ByAsura]

How durable are these ships?

 

[Dalesean027]

How powerful are these ships?

A star destroyer? The standard one's have around city level durability with island level shields

 

[ByAsura]

Oh, is Visions actually canon?

 

[Dalesean027]

Oh, is Visions actually canon?

No they're their own self contained nom canon stories

 

[Setsuna_tenma]

Oh, is Visions actually canon?

no. The makers wanted to have freedom to create stories however they liked without the restraint of canon

 

[ByAsura]

So we probably can't say these ships are as durable as their counterparts.

 

[Setsuna_tenma]

Spoiler: Feat

The guy was amped by a kyber crystal when he did it

 

[Dalesean027]

Spoiler: Feat

The guy was amped by a kyber crystal when he did it

Yep