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Star Wars Discussion Thread Canon/Legends - Episode II

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dude. the narrator says he is, like, 10 times over using present tense. and it he says he "i am" which is also present tense. and what do u mean u know for a fact? those are narrator statements. also facts.
 
The narrator has also called both Yoda and Windu the strongest Jedi, and they actually have the feats to back it up.
 
he also does. his feats are actually better than windu's btw. at least on legends. windu couldnt lift a sand crawler and struggled to stop an avalanche directed in this spot, while anakin has (before ROTS btw) managed to create a force field around a whole town to hold back a storm that could kill people in no time, and obi said that that is a yoda lvl feat. it really doesnt get any more clearer than 10 or more narrator statements and some feats lol. that and the fact that he could semi stomp dooku, and was already stronger than him base. who is like, mace's equal btw. add in the dark side, which makes him a good deal stronger, and he is certainly within yoda's and sidious' tier. i dont think he stronger than them, but he is in their ball park
 
That's just called inconsistency, it's also a tremendous anti-feat. Remember in the original Clone Wars when Windu demolishes whole armies of droids.

The fact that Windu and Yoda also have multiple statements shouldn't be ignored because "Anakin does too." Dooku most certainly isn't on the level of Windu, because the latter is on par with Sidious, the former's master who far surpasses his power.

By Vader's own admission in A New Hope, he's much stronger than Anakin, yet a Vader-level Luke was stomped by Sidious while he was holding back. Also, may I remind you again that Obi-Wan matched Anakin.

EMPEROR: If you will not be turned, you will be destroyed.

  • Blinding bolts of energy, evil lightning, shoot from the Emperor's hands at Luke. Even in his surprise, the young Jedi tries to use the Force to deflect them. At first he is half successful, but after a moment the bolts of energy are coming with such speed and power the young Jedi shrinks before them, his knees buckling. The wounded Vader struggles to his feet, and moves to stand at his master's side.
EMPEROR: Young fool...only now, at the end, do you understand.

  • Luke is almost unconscious beneath the continuing assault of the Emperor's lightning. He clutches a canister to keep from falling into the bottomless shaft as the bolts tear through him.
EMPEROR: Your feeble skills are no match for the power of the dark side. You have paid the price for your lack of vision.

  • Luke writhes on the floor in unbearable pain, reaching weakly up toward where Vader stands watching.
LUKE (groans): Father, please. Help me.

  • Again Vader stands, watching Luke. He looks at his master, the Emperor, then back to Luke on the floor.
EMPEROR: Now, young Skywalker...you will die.

  • Although it would not have seemed possible, the outpouring of bolts from the Emperor's fingers actually increases in intensity, the sound screaming through the room. Luke's body writhes in pain.
It's also virtually the same in the novelization, which is Legends Canon

  • Palpatine raised his spidery arms toward Luke: blinding white bolts of energy coruscated from his fingers, shot across the room like sorcerous lightning, and tore through the boy's insides, looking for ground. The young Jedi was at once confounded and in agony--he'd never heard of such a power, such a corruption of the Force, let alone experienced it. But if it was Force-generated, it could be Force-repelled. Luke raised his arms to deflect the bolts. Initially, he was successful—the lightning rebounded from his touch, harmlessly into the walls. Soon, though, the shocks came with such speed and power, they coursed over and into him, and he could only shrink before them, convulsed with pain, his knees buckling, his powers at ebb. Vader crawled, like a wounded animal, to his Emperor's side.
  • On the Death Star, Luke was nearly unconscious beneath the continuing assault of the Emperor's lightning. Tormented beyond reason, betaken of a weakness that drained his very essence, he hoped for nothing more than to submit to the nothingness toward which he was drifting. The Emperor smiled down at the enfeebled young Jedi, as Vader struggled to his feet beside his master. "Young fool!" Palpatine rasped at Luke. "Only now at the end, do you understand. Your puerile skills are no match for the power of the dark side. You have paid a price for your lack of vision. Now, young Skywalker, you will pay the price in full. You will die!" He laughed maniacally; and although it would not have seemed possible to Luke, the outpouring of bolts from the Emperor's fingers actually increased in intensity. The sound screamed through the room, the murderous brightness of the flashes was overwhelming. Luke's body slowed, wilted, finally crumpled under the hideous barrage. He stopped moving altogether. At last, he appeared totally lifeless. The Emperor hissed maliciously.
In this same novel, Fact File #111 and Beware of the Sith, they say Luke is equal to Vader

  • For the first time, the thought entered Vader's consciousness that his son might best him. He was astounded by the strength Luke had acquired since their last duel, in the Cloud City—not to mention the boy's timing, which was honed to a thought's-breadth. This was an unexpected circumstance. Unexpected and unwelcome. Vader felt humiliation crawling in on the tail of his first reaction, which was surprise, and his second, which was fear. And then the edge of the humiliation curled up, to reveal bald anger. And now he wanted revenge.
  • Although Darth Vader and Luke Skywalker are equally strong in the Force, their duels are more than just about physical strength.
  • The fight this time was far more balanced. Vader discovered that Luke was his match, and, once again, the Sith Lord found his thoughts straying to an alliance between them against the Emperor.Luke had indeed grown powerful since Bespin, and he was an equal match for his father.
 
since u dealt heavily with that luke= vader thing, ill counter it with statements that say the opposite. idk if i have to find them like u did, but 4 that i know for a fact say that vader was the strongest in the galaxy after sidious, which included luke, exar kun, darth krayt, gethzerion (yes he is stronger than her. the statement that we have for her being a threat to sidious applies to vader even more, and it was repeated many times over by sidious himself), and joruus. the last two both easily overpowered luke like, 4 years+ after ROTJ, and he admited inferiority to them both. he also said that they were vader lvl, and that he couldnt beat them. exar kun+ kyp durron was considered to be a lesser threat than vader using his amping powers, meaning that out of exar kun and kup durron together, he was stronger than them in base, and if vader were to use their amps, he could easily beat early grandmaster luke. now, at last we have DE luke. both he and sidious say he is weaker than vader. sidious says it twice i think.

now, this is the important stuff; yes what i said contradicts everything u said above. so ill add some more facts to prove my points

luke copied vader's form and adapted it to use it agaisnt vader himself. vader made his style to fight for users at the best way possible, while luke trained for like 2 or so years just to fight vader. secondly, he used a style made by obi wan himself to counter's vader style. luke used both styles together to fight vader. now, this wouldnt make much of a difference would it? specially with someone like vader being the opponent. so what other things affeted the fight? well, luke was factually faster than vader (this is extremely impressive. ROTJ luke is very very underrated btw. he is factaully stronger than starkiller, who stronger than galen, who was at least equal to vader a few years. him being faster than prime vader also means he is faster than dark side anakin, who moved too fast for dooku to fight against, even compared to yoda, whom dooku fought agaisnt many times over. he never fought yoda using full power obviously, but he did fight a serious yoda twice before). ANH vader is faster than that anakin, ESB vader is even faster, and ROTJ vader is even faster. so yeah, luke is extremely fast. he is also much more agile. vader cannot look down, lean foreward, move his hands above his shoulds, and he cant even see to his sides as much as before. luke had a pretty advantage over him cuz of the things i mentioned.

there is more tho. vader not only didnt want to kill him (this is the most absolute truth. vader has never used his full on luke. this contradicts main canon in both new canon and legends btw, since the whole point of the fight was to beat luke and show him how the dark was stronger so that he could join vader and kill sidious) which means no killing technques were used. he was also conflicted. also a fact. he saves luke from sidious while putting himself in danger, so that follows the story. anythign that says the opposite also contradicts all forms of canon, since him not being conflicted means he wouldnt have a reason to save luke. now this is actually very imporant, since it means he wasnt using the dark nearly as much as he usually did. he wasnt a light sider by that point, but he wasnt fully into his sith lord persona either. and finally, the fight was purely a duel. vader literally never used the force on luke, offensively.

i can get the sources and whatnot, if there is one of them u dont believe in. and i know that ur points are also legit. its just like u said- inconsistency is huge in star wars.
 
This same Luke was the one from Dark Empire, who was comparable to Sidious after he became a living nexus of the dark side of the Force, and far more powerful than he'd ever been. In addition Sidious is afraid of Gethzerion from what I've heard. Also, did they overpower him in the force or lightsaber combat? No matter what anyone says, Vader is inferior to Sidious, as he's always looking for a more powerful apprentice to take his place, such as Galen, who Sidious killed despite the latter having beaten Vader.

None of that proves Luke is weaker than Vader in the force, it just means he adapted his fighting style to beat Vader. Vader also not wanting to kill Luke is irrelevant.
 
luke became more powerful than sidious years later i think, and after he got a permanent amp from leia or some such during the end of DE. so yeah, no. and even still, he was already said to be weaker than vader, by both sidious and himself, so DE luke is at max= to vader.

i dont remember the exact statement about gethzerion. he thinks she is trouble cuz of what she knows or some such and keeps her locked away in her planet. seems impressive but sidious has done something similar to this to vader- he made him weaker by making him the armor while using mad machinery. plus, sidious himself says that while vader was never strong like him, he couldve killed him.

i literally said he was weaker than sidious my man. and no, he didnt kill galen lol galen almost killed him btw (true story, look it up), after he pulled a kamikaze. and that was vader before even ANH. he was a good deal weaker than his prime self. plus, there is also the arguement to be made that maybe vader held back in that fight. idk for sure tho.

yeah it does. gethzerion and joruus (both equal to vader) almost killed luke more than once i think. joruus more than geth i believe. which is even better, since the luke joruus fought was stronger than the one geth fought, and he was winning more easily than her i believe. and yet again, luke says joruus is equal to vader. all this takes place 1 year before the events of DE btw.

ps i actually forgot another good point. do u know who kar vastor is? just answer yes or no and ill tell u what im trying to get at, here
 
I'll continue this when I get my computer back, so I can use some more sources.

Palpatine did kill Galen after he failed to block his force lightning for more than a minute. Also, Palpatine tanked the explosion.
 
galen self blew up, iirc. and yeah he tanked it. but people think he was unharmed from it, which is not the case at all. the comicbook shows us that his skin is burned and has holes in it and shit like that.
 
Firstly, Vader was never stated to be the second strongest in the galaxy. Secondly, even if he did it's damn wrong. We have people like Starkiller/Galen's clone, Talzin, Kazdan, etc, who are superior to Vader. Lastly, it makes literally no sense for Luke to be weaker than Vader given how much Palpatine wants Luke as an apprentice. Also no, that's completely wrong, Gethz is never called equal to Vader, she's actually said to have vastly superior tricks in Luke's personal narration

  • "Waytha ara quetha way. Waytha ara quetha way!" Lightning crackled overhead and a dozen small boulders blasted toward Luke, hurtling through the air. Vader had tried similar tricks, but Luke reflected woefully that Vader hadn't been nearly as good at it. He swung wildly with his lightsaber, bursting several pieces of rock, but one caught him in the chest, throwing him backward a pace. Repulsed by the witches.
  • And there was a further matter. In his battles with Darth Vader and the Emperor, Luke felt he had never truly tested his powers to the limits. Vader had sought only to turn him, had kept Luke alive. Yet Luke had no illusions that Gethzerion would be so lenient.
So yes, Luke's power of the Force is equal to Vader. Also, when is C'baoth called weaker than Vader and stronger than Luke?

The Dark Empire saga (10 BBY) is not 1 or 2 years after the C'baoth stuff (9 BBY), as Leia is still pregnant, meaning it only takes place mere months after but in different years. Sidious is also, as I said, far more powerful than before to the point where it took every dead Jedi to kill him for good.

Starkiller did not blow himself up, it was Sidious' lightning

  • "No!" the apprentice cried, dropping his defenses to strike one last time at the Imperials. Energy surged through him. He felt as though a star had blazed to life in his chest. Driven by concern for his friends rather than himself, he embraced the Force completely, utterly, and was rewarded with strength that made his efforts with the dark side look like those of a child. His nerves were on fire. Streamers of light radiated from his skin. His bones glowed like radiant lava. He saw rather than felt the massive shock wave that consumed a large portion of what remained of the observation dome. A glowing bubble of fire tore the stormtroopers to shreds and engulfed Vader and the Emperor. Shrapnel filled the air like dust caught in the beam of the Death Star's powerful laser.
 
ill just post some of the statements i found, if thats ok.(ill be using a respect thread i found which has sources to them btw)

George Lucas views Vader as more powerful than Luke:

_ Well, children love power because children are the powerless. And so their fantasies all center on having power. And who's more powerful than Darth Vader, you know? And, some, you know, will be attracted to Luke Skywalker because he's the good guy. But ultimately, we all know that Darth Vader's more powerful than he is._ ( https://billmoyers.com/content/mythology-of-star-wars-george-lucas/ )

sidious views vader as threat

_He collected some of these Force adepts and took them to his citadel on Byss, where he initiated them in the powers of the dark side. All of those he taught, human or alien, were only taught enough to fulfilll Palpatine's wishes. He didn't want any of them rising up against him. Bad enough that Vader was as powerful as he was, though Palpatine was certain of Vader's loyalty to the dark side._

-- The Essential Guide To Characters

same book that gethzerion shows up in:

_She pointed a finger at Luke, and before Luke even recognized her evil intent, a ripple of Force slammed into him. White lights exploded behind his eyes, and the right side of his face felt as if it had been smashed by a hammer. His left arm and right leg crumpled under their unbearable weight, and he dropped to the ground on one knee, stunned. All the noise and blaster fire and screams of pain died away, became a distant roaring. Gethzerion pointed at him again, twitched her finger, and his eyes lost focus. He felt the hammer blow to his left temple, dropped to his side and rolled over to his back, gasping. Luke stared up at the sky, watching streams of rocks hurtling above him—some propelled by the Force, others hurled by rancors.

Time seemed to slow. His head throbbed, pounding to the same rhythm as the beating of his heart. His face had gone cold, numb, and Luke realized distantly that Gethzerion's spell had ripped open blood vessels in his brain, and he was about to die, one among hundreds of fatalities on this battlefield.

So this is how it would have been, if Vader had tried to kill me._

-The Courtship of Princess Leia

sidious says that vader would become a risk to him if he ever let him

_More important, by the time Vader was capable of becoming a risk to his Mastery, Sidious would be fully conversant with the secrets Plagueis had spent a lifetime seeking―the power of life over death. There would be no need to fear Vader._

-- Dark Lord: The Rise Of Darth Vader

Palpatine muses that Vader's limitations were more phsychological than physical, and also that he would have to do everything he can to reawaken Vader's power, even at his own peril, once again suggesting Vader could potentially become a risk to his mastery:

_Yes, Vader was not precisely what he had bargained for. Vader's legs and arms were artificial, and he would never be able to summon lightning or leap about like the Jedi had been fond of doing. His dark side training was just beginning. But Sith power resided not in the flesh but in the will. Self-restraint was praised by the Jedi only because they didn't know the power of the dark side. Vader's real weaknesses were psychological rather than physical, and for Vader to overcome them he would need to be driven deeper into himself, to confront all his choices and his disappointments.

Powered by treachery, the Sith Master-apprentice relationship was always a dangerous game. Trust was encouraged even while being sabotaged; loyalty was demanded even while betrayal was prized; suspicion was nourished even while honesty was praised.

In some sense, it was survival of the fittest.

Fundamental to Vader's growth was the desire to overthrow his Master.

Had Vader killed Obi-Wan on Mustafar, he might have attempted to kill Sidious, as well. In fact, Sidious would have been surprised if Anakin hadn't made an attempt. Now, however, incapable of so much as breathing on his own, Vader could not rise to the challenge, and Sidious understood that he would need everything in his power to shake Vader out of that despair, and reawaken the incredible power within him.

Even at Sidious's own peril…_

--Dark Lord: The Rise Of Darth Vader

vader was actually holding back agasint starkiller (stronger clone of galen) the whole time. in the events of tfu 3, which never happened but they already had a story for it, vader completely beats starkiller at the start of the game

_"But there was definitely moments where Starkiller faces off very cocky against Vader, maybe near the beginning of the game, and Vader *houses* him. And he says "how are you doing this?" And he's says "I'm Darth Vader."...

...that Vader had been gaming him, quite a bit."_

-- Far, Far Away: Episode VIII: Sam Witwer

vader is more powerful than starkiller even by the second game

_You grab your sabers and attack, but Vader is too powerful. He tosses you away like a rag doll._

-- Star Wars: The Force Unleashed II: Prima Official Game Guide

sidious says that vader could have killed him before vader died, but he could never actually have surpassed him

_Yes, Vader remained strong in the Force, but strong enough to succeed me? Never. Granted, he was strong enough to kill me. But that only lasted for so long._

-- Jedi vs. Sith: The Essential Guide To The Force

sidious says in DE that luke can surpass vader given time, meaning he isnt vader lvl yet

_"Yes, that mask inspired terror throughout the galaxy but the feeble heart within was forever possessed by the impotent side of the Force. You can be far stronger than he was."_

_"Yes... you have that talent... you are a Skywalker, after all... You can be like him... You can be greater than he was!"_

vader by the time of ANH is already the second strongest

_Darth Vader, Dark Lord of the Sith, has instilled terror throughout the galaxy since the beginning of the Empire. His devotion to the Emperor and mastery of the dark side gives him more power than any single individual in the galaxy except for the Emperor himself._

http://www.rebelscum.com/soteKxizor-vader.asp

_In his distinctive black armor, Vader is an imposing figure. In the entire galaxy, he is second in power only to the Emperor himself._

-- Insider 65

_For the first time he could remember, the dark side had no answer. And a great surge of unfamiliar emotion suddenly washed over him.

Darth Vader, the Dark Lord of the Sith's apprentice, one of the two most powerful beings in the galaxy, was afraid._

-- Death Star

luke says joruus= vader

_According to Luke Skywalker, the duplicate C'baoth was easily as formidable a foe as Darth Vader and completely twisted to the dark side of the Force._

-- Thrawn Trilogy Sourcebook

joruus is factually above luke at that time

_Artoo whistled thoughtfully. "Right," Luke agreed ruefully. "It didn't bother me any to have Ben around—in fact, I wish he had talked to me more often. But Master C'baoth was a lot more powerful than I was. Maybe it was different with him."_

-- Dark Force Rising

luke cant match joruus' power

_Skywalker was good, all right. With the strange buzzing pressure in his mind he must have known he couldn't match C'baoth strength for strength. Mara felt the subtle change in his concentration; and suddenly he swung his own lightsaber over his shoulder, the green-white blade scything toward a point midway along the other lightsaber handle._

-- The Last Command

jax pavan says that vader is stronger and more powerful than any other force user he ever met, which includes as a matter of fact, the jedi council (aka kit fisto, agen kolar, saesee tiin, mace windu, etc)

_Abruptly he experienced a sudden tingle that vibrated the lines of the Force—a plangent throb telling him that a new player was approaching the blasted landscape of the Factory District. Someone extremely strong in the Force—stronger than he'd ever encountered before. It could mean only one thing:_

-- Coruscant Nights I: Jedi Twilight

_No, Jax didn't know what Darth Vader was capable of. Aboard the dying Far Ranger he thought he had seen him fail to manipulate Thi Xon Yimmon's mind and have to settle, instead, for manipulating gravity. Still …

"I've never known a Force-user as powerful as Vader," he admitted. "Which only makes it more critical that we rescue Yimmon."

--

Not only was Darth Vader the most powerful Force-user Tesla had ever known, he had always thought of him as a towering genius._

-- The Last Jedi

so yeah, this is fome of the stuff i found. there is more if u want
 
This is the full interview, he was referring to Vader's role in the story, not force power

  • GEORGE LUCAS: Well, children love power because children are the powerless. And so their fantasies all center on having power. And who's more powerful than Darth Vader, you know? And, some, you know, will be attracted to Luke Skywalker because he's the good guy. But ultimately, we all know that Darth Vader's more powerful than he is.
  • BILL MOYERS: Did you feel pow …
  • GEORGE LUCAS: And as time goes on, you discover that he is more powerful because he's the — he's the ultimate father who is all powerful.
The essential guide to characters is heavily contradicted by the actual Star Wars films and media. Guide Books are secondary to the films, books, etc. Also, none of the quotes you've posted actually say he's a threat to Sidious, they say he's capable of becoming a threat, which is consistent with Luke eventually rivalling and surpassing Palpatine.

"So this is how it would have been, if Vader had tried to kill me." This could very well mean their fight on Cloud City. Now about the DE quotes

  • Yes, that mask inspired terror throughout the galaxy but the feeble heart within was forever possessed by the impotent side of the Force. You can be far stronger than he was.
  • Yes... you have that talent... you are a Skywalker, after all... You can be like him... You can be greater than he was!
None of those actually say he's weaker than Vader, the first one says he's not far stronger, and the second one doesn't refer to power, just mastery over the Dark Side.

Ok, if Vader's stronger than Starkiller, that makes sense. It'd also mean Sidious was holding back. Also, Darth Vader, Dark Lord of the Sith is a canon comic story that does not exist in Legends, and it's based well before Endor. The quote about Vader being the second strongest in Death Star was also from 0 BBY.

  • Obi-Wan Kenobi was gone. How could this be? For the first time that he could remember, the dark side had no answer. And a great surge of unfamiliar emotion suddenly washed over him. Darth Vader, the Dark Lord of the Sith's apprentice, one of the two most powerful beings in the galaxy, was afraid.
"Jax Pavan says that vader is stronger and more powerful than any other force user he ever met." I shouldn't need to tell you why this is incredibly contradictory, as it would make Vader's force power higher than Yoda and Windu, both of whom are comparable to Sidious. Also Tesla is an Inquisitor, not a Jedi, so it makes sense that he's never seen someone more powerful.

I'll get to the Joruus stuff later.
 
since u are gonna continue later, ill answer to what u have already posted, alright? PS SORRY FOR THE LONG ASNWER LOL

_GEORGE LUCAS: Well, children love power because children are the powerless. And so their fantasies all center on having power. And who's more powerful than Darth Vader, you know? And, some, you know, will be attracted to Luke Skywalker because he's the good guy. But ultimately, we all know that Darth Vader's more powerful than he is._

U said the above. U looked it up just like i did. And u still dont think its talking about power? "children love power" "all their fantasies center on power" "who's more powerful than vader?" "people will say its luke cuz he is the good guy. But ultimatly, we all know that vader is more powerful". All of this is from that right there that i copy pasted from ur own comment.

Yes i agree. Most of the stuff on star wars is contradicted by something once at least once. This is not news. We both know that. Doesnt mean that because of that, the info available isnt usable. I just used it as an example... As for sidious and vader threats, sidious says that vader couldve killed him, that if he learned everything he wanted to/had to learn, he wouldnt have to worry about vader becoming a threat. This is said years before ANH, meaning that vader was still fresh, and still growing in power all the time, which is what worried sidious. He knew that if slacked or made a mistake, it would cost him. Plus, he actually acknowledges vader's power so much, that he says that if he could ever train him again with the same outcome for both of them, he wouldve, with zeal, in his own words.

I suppose u may be correct about this one. luke was clearly not as masterful as vader- not even close by that point, but he obviously reaching his power tier for sure years later, so it makes sense that DE luke= vader.

Yeah, he was. ableit, when galen went "one with the force" agaisnt sidious, sidioud didnt hold back. i can find it where its said that he didnt too. its just that someone of galen's lvl using the "one with the force" mode is just that strong. Think of it like a vader lvl force user using oness with the force. It makes sense that he could fight sidious with it when u think about it. sidious was stronger than vader, but not like he was 50 times stronger. more like, 2 to 3 times, i would say.... oh yeah, u right. 2018 huh. damn, i think i read it too lmaoo. Yeah, didnt i say that? i think all the "2nd strongest" statements are from ANH, which when we first see him. I also found that already in 19 bby (ROTS's date in universe, i believe), he already has a statement that says he is one of the most powerful beings around post mustafar, i believe, which was when he was still weaker than his non suit self. He was already in the top 10 in the galaxy, no time after he lost to kenobi and was all ****** up. So yeah, him being number 2 at his prime is 100% coherent imo.

Well, i asked if u knew who kar vastor was, and u never answered. Had u answered, u wouldve known that the verse itself already says that vader is stronger than kar vastor by far:

_"Nick Rostu knew darkness.

He had, after all, stood with the Jedi Master Mace Windu against Kar Vastor in the steaming jungles of Haruun Kal. Kar Vastor, leader of the Balawai resistance; Kar Vastor, with his arm-mounted vibroblade weapons and his almost supernatural strength. Kar Vastor, stronger in the Force than any of the Korunnai, stronger than any in the galaxy, perhaps, save for the Jedi. Kar Vastor, so submerged in the dark side that, even though Nick had been only a couple of meters away from him during that final battle, even though he could see the man as clearly as he could see Mace, or Iolu, the guard who'd sliced him from sternum to navel-still, looking back on it now, he realized he couldn't visualize the guerrilla leader's face. It was as if the Balawai commander had been shrouded in darkness, somehow, as if the dark side of the Force radiated a strange anti-light. Kar Vastor had been the essence, the personification, of primal power, jungle savagery, and bloodlust distilled into flesh. Nick had never seen anyone or anything to match him.

Until now.

Until he stood, unarmed, before Darth Vader.

As if being armed would make a difference, he thought. He could be tricked out with wrist rockets, a hold-out shooter, a pair of DL-44s, and a disruptor rifle, and he might just as well be carrying a pointed stick. Vastor had been animal ferocity and menace, barely contained. He'd thrummed with the power of the dark side. His arms, legs, torso, and shoulders had been layered with striated muscle; he looked like he could have lifted a pregnant grasser over his head. One-handed.

Vader was as tall as Vastor had been, but probably massed a good twenty kilos less. He wasn't physically impressive in the same way; no musculature was visible under the black armor.

It didn't matter. There was no doubt in Nick's mind that, were Kar Vastor somehow to be pitted against Darth Vader, the feral Balawai renegade wouldn't stand a chance.

The Force was powerful in Vader; even the dim wattage of Nick's connection could feel that. It was far more powerful than it had been in Kar Vastor. It had pulsed from Vastor in waves of fury, blasted like an open furnace. In Vader, it was-contained. Pent.

Waiting."_

-- Coruscant Nights I:Jedi Twilight

and that in the death star novel, he is literally said to have mastery in the same lvl as someone of yoda's and mace's caliber:

_Of course, it might easily have disappeared in one of the white-hot lava rivers . . . but was it really just a coincidence that Darth Vader, encased in a life-support suit and demonstrating a mastery of the Force supposedly only attained by the most powerful of Jedi, had become the Emperor's new favorite immediately after Skywalker left the scene?_

-- Death Star

so yeah, vader is almost quite literally confirmed to be mace windu lvl as far a 18 bby (when the curusant nights novel takes place) to be equal to mace. Why does this make sense? because ROTS anakin in base is already said to be somewhat equal to windu by windu himself the shatterpoint novel, in which mace windu fights kar vastor, the guy mentioned above
 
You're again, ignoring the next part of the interview. "And as time goes on, you discover that he is more powerful because he's the—he's the ultimate father who is all powerful." Yes, I don't think he's talking about power.

I said the Essential Guide to Characters (a secondary source of media) was contradicted, not only by the story, but your quotes as well. Sidious says that Vader was far less powerful but could've killed him, he didn't say he "had the power" to kill him. Also, may I remind you that Sidious gained his immense power after killing Plagueis in his sleep.

"I suppose u may be correct about this one. luke was clearly not as masterful as vader- not even close by that point, but he obviously reaching his power tier for sure years later, so it makes sense that DE luke= vader." We agree on nothing here, I believe Luke is as strong as a heavily amped Palpatine, as he and Leia defeat him with the force. Also, he's not as masterful in the Dark Side, not the Force.

Galen didn't go "one with the force" agaisnt Sidious, that happened as he was dying. Let's put this in perspective, Sidious wanted Starkiller as his apprentice, and according to him, Galen had never felt as much pain as he did when Sidious hit him with lightning. Sidious is also more powerful than Vader. He must have been holding back.

"Sidious was stronger than Vader, but not like he was 50 times stronger. More like 2 to 3 times." My point was you're scaling people who are equal to Sidious as weaker than Darth Vader, and during the Empire's reign, they were some of the only force users in the galaxy. I agree that Anakin is one of the most powerful Jedi.

I didn't see the Kar Vastor stuff. I think it's because you edited that point in. Anyway, what relavance does Vastor have to this discussion?

Obi-Wan matched Anakin. This already pretty much debunks everything, as Mace and Yoda are superior. Also, again, Mace and Yoda are both equal to Palpatine, so this would make Vader equal to Darth Sidious at their peak.
 
I'll probably continue this at a later time if you do. I'm getting kind of tired of arguing.
 
i dont think of it as arguing, but more like getting to a point of agreement.

as u can tell, i place vader in very high esteem, just as i do ROTJ luke

u, on the other hand, have him in a good esteem, while putting luke at much higher esteem than i do, so out points will clearly be opposites
 
What happened here?

Anyway...

I finished Delilah Dawson's Black Spire novel. I give it an 8/10 score. I'd rate it higher, but the book only starts to become exciting and faster-paced a third of the way through. Everything up till that point felt slice of life.

The most notable feat from the novel is that this magnificent ****** can trade blows with an alien who can tank blaster carbine shots. Oh, and that was with a punctured lung, broken ribs, and severely injured left leg. And he was fighting two other tough guys at the same time.

So that's a nice supporting feat for 9-A rating for him, and provides consistency to the 9-A ratings for Captain Phasma and those who scale to her.
 
9-A for Star Wars fodder seems legit. And would non force enhanced Jedi also scale?
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
9-A for Star Wars fodder seems legit. And would non force enhanced Jedi also scale?
Click to expand...
I did have this in mind.

In one episode of TCW, Obi-Wan stabs a large adult male Karkarodon (the alien species which Cardinal fought whose skin can tank blaster shots) with a fork and then proceeds to cause said Karkarodon some pain with a mere pinch. The Karkarodon actually walks away terrified of him. Obi-Wan was in disguise as someone else at the time (Rako Hardeen) and not using the Force at all.
 
That does sound legit, and it's kinda funny how Disney canon fodder are currently rated higher than ESU fodder. Ones 9-B to 9-A, while the other is 9-C. Plus, we all know how shit Street level Star Wars ideas are.
 
Shadowbokunohero said:
yes more supporting evidence for my han Solo upgrade
Click to expand...
I was thinking of putting Canon Han and Lando at 9-B based on two feats.

One is from the Solo movie, where Han is rammed head-first through a metal pole with enough force to bend it, but he himself is fine.

One is from the Galaxy's Edge comic series: Han takes a fall that looks to be multiple storeys, landing on his back and hitting his head against a solid metal crate. He is 100% fine after this.

He has also taken a glancing blow from Black Krrsanta during the Vader Down arc of the main comics.

In the Last Shot novel, we see that Lando can knock down Han with a punch. Han later on in the novel does the same to Lando. So they're roughly equal to each other.
 
so vader surpassed anakin only 5 years after mustafar. would his prime key for canon get an at least, or a possibly higher, or a plus sign?
 
His prime does have another key.

About 9-A Jedi, Darth Maul fights and defeats Rathtars, which have blaster resistant skin.

In the early years after the Clone Wars ended, Vader casually overpowers and tears apart a Jedi training droid. This same droid withstood falling dozens to potentially hundreds of meters with moderate damage.

Vader defeats droids that are "a thousand times deadlier than any security droid." Although he's only shown to use the Force. Regardless, he's somewhat damaged, so I'm fairly sure his durability should scale, especially since we see a decapitated Stormtrooper.

As a mere padawan, Anakin fought on par with an upgraded training droid designed specifically for combat. I'm not sure how powerful it is, but the droid bears striking resemblance to the IG-series.

In Darth Vader (2015), the titular antagonist can grapple with and deflect strikes from an enhanced Trandoshan. He does use his lightsaber, but deflecting these would also be a matter of physical strength.
 
I'm still dealing with shit in real life. I just came by to make share this news.

https://www.starwars.com/news/marvels-star-wars-comic-relaunch

  • The relaunch of the mainline Star Wars comic will be helmed by Charles Soule. I'm not too fond of the art style (I much prefer the combination of Soule and Camuncoli), but at least Soule will give us some good stories.
https://www.starwars.com/news/nycc-...re-revealed-at-the-lucasfilm-publishing-panel

That's a lot of reveals.

  • Project Luminous is something big indeed. I can't wait. It's most likely something to do with the 40th anniversary of The Empire Strikes Back. Remember the "From a Certain Point of View" novel for the 40th anniversary of A New Hope?
  • Rae Carson is writing the novelization for TROS.
  • We are getting a Star Wars: The Clone Wars anthology book, with various authors contributing.
  • We're getting an illustrated novel called Star Wars: Dark Legends. I have no idea what the **** it's about. It's most likely another book about in-universe myths & legends. This one most likely centres around the Sith (though I wouldn't advise taking this speculation to the bank). That makes sense, considering the two weird but wonderful stories we got in Myths & Fables about Old Republic era Sith.
  • Star Wars: The Rise of Kylo Ren comic, by Charles Soule (this we already knew).
  • The second novel in the Alphabet Squadron trilogy of Alexander Freed is called "Shadow Fall".
Best announcement for last:

  • Timothy Zahn is writing a new Thrawn trilogy titled Thrawn Ascendancy. The first book will be out in 2020. I'm guessing the sequels to it will come out in 2021 and 2022.
Judging by the title, it will most likely revolve around Thrawn and his life in the Chiss Ascendancy.
 
Ogbunabali said:
I'll just drop this here. Multiple casual 5-B feats, a 3-C statement and time stop from a random VR game.
Click to expand...
Wait what? 5-B Canon Force Users? Even a galactic feat for Canon Star Wars? It isn't the first time that the timestop thing in the Darth Vader 2017 Comic with Lord Momin almost doing it.
 
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