SSJ3 multiplier legitimacy (Discontinued)

[Eseseso]

OK, so I know that we can't use SSJ2's multiplier since no way would Gohan have been able to demolish Perfect Cell with just a 2x boost, something I 100% agree with.

HOWEVER, from what the anime and manga of dbz have both shown, the 4x multiplier for SSJ3 seems far more sensible since it makes much more sense in how its been portrayed power-wise in the story:

SSJ3 Goku did manage to overpower Fat Buu (who stomped SSJ2 Gohan and Vegeta), but Fat Buu still managed to hold his own once he got serious, so the gap wasn't terribly large. And while Buu was way above SSJ2 Gohan and Vegeta, they could still barely hold there own, like Gohan kicking Buu away and Vegeta damaging Buu somewhat to hold him off and distract him. So since SSJ3 Goku is far above Buu, but not to a totally one-sided extent, and the same goes with Buu being above SSJ2 Gohan and Vegeta (the latter of whom was equal to SSJ2 Goku), a 4x multiplier is honestly quite reasonable.

Not to mention, while Kid Buu stomped Fat Buu and SSJ2 Vegeta and Goku, they were each able to somewhat hold their own against Buu for a period of time, so it wasn't totally one-sided like Gohan's shitstomping of Perfect Cell.

Also, while Super Buu (who equalled SSJ3 Gotenks) was far above SSJ Gotenks, it wasn't utterly one-sided, especially since Gotenks nearly killed Buu with his Kamikaze Ghosts.

Lastly, SSJ2 Trunks with training held his own against SSJ3 Goku in DBS.

So my proposal is simple: A 4x multiplier for SSJ3 for the manga (not sure about DBS and Toei).

Thoughts?

Edit: I apologize, but a certain troll provoked me and cause us to fill up like 75% of the page with our fighting, so I've decided to close the thread since that troll's provokation made most of the posts not even about the debate anymore.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

since no way would Gohan have been able to demolish Perfect Cell with just a 2x boost, something I 100% agree with.

the 4x multiplier for SSJ3 seems far more sensible

Would a four-times boost have been enough for Gohan to stomp Cell?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I don't think that's enough evidence to consider 4x perfectly consistent. Fiction in general isn't consistent with how much of an AP gap is enough to be considered a stomp, and there exist cases where characters actually one-shotted their physical superiors via superior skill rather than power. I know this isn't entirely the case here although SSJ3 Goku is clearly both more power and more skilled than Fat Buu.

But even so, unless it's stated in manga that SSJ3 is exactly 4x stronger/faster than SSJ2, I'm basically against this. Also, SSJ3 Goku was clearly not going all out against Fat Buu or Trunks; and Trunks was simply sensing his PL and comparing it to Goku Black's prior to his body replication.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Trunks

He was going out against Trunks and even went further into God. Trunks was not using Super Saiyan 2, though, he was using an advanced variant.

 

[Eseseso]

Would a four-times boost have been enough for Gohan to stomp Cell?

Anywhere from 4-10x would've made much more sense IMO.

I don't think that's enough evidence to consider 4x perfectly consistent. Fiction in general isn't consistent with how much of an AP gap is enough to be considered a stomp, and there exist cases where characters actually one-shotted their physical superiors via superior skill rather than power. I know this isn't entirely the case here although SSJ3 Goku is clearly both more power and more skilled than Fat Buu.

But even so, unless it's stated in manga that SSJ3 is exactly 4x stronger/faster than SSJ2, I'm basically against this. Also, SSJ3 Goku was clearly not going all out against Fat Buu or Trunks; and Trunks was simply sensing his PL and comparing it to Goku Black's prior to his body replication.

The Daizenshuu says that SSJ3 is 4x multiplier for SSJ2, just like how it is the source for SSJ being 50x base, so if SSJ's multiplier is confirmed due to being consistent, then why not SSJ3's multiplier for being consistent.

 

[thetechmaster36]

if SSJ's multiplier is confirmed due to being consistent, then why not SSJ3's multiplier for being consistent.

SSJ's 50x multiplier has more than just a 50x statement attached to it afaik, there's also guidebooks explaining how his power level went from 3 million to 150 million upon going SSJ.

SSJ3 doesn't have anything like this, just the 4x statement.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

SSJ1 also has the fact that it's a 40x multiplier at minimum from the fact that Kaioken x20 just barely matched 50% Frieza while SSJ Goku strait up blitzed and overpowered 100% Frieza when he fought seriously.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

The Daizenshuu says that SSJ3 is 4x multiplier for SSJ2

Could you send a scan of that, because AFAIK, the Super Saiyan 2 and 3 multipliers are only mentioned in the Super Exciting Guide.

 

[thetechmaster36]

Even then, we already know that the SSJ2 multiplier is total bull, so why should we also accept the SSJ3 multiplier?

 

[Eseseso]

Could you send a scan of that, because AFAIK, the Super Saiyan 2 and 3 multipliers are only mentioned in the Super Exciting Guide.

I think that it was in the Daizenshuu, not sure about the Super Exciting Guide.

 

[BlackeJan]

Even then, we already know that the SSJ2 multiplier is total bull, so why should we also accept the SSJ3 multiplier?

Because it’s Eseseso

 

[Eseseso]

Because it’s Eseseso

You know, this whole hating upgrades thing you have going on (which although mostly focused on me hasn't been only limited to me) is really tiresome.

You just show up, insult people even if they try to make legit points, refuse to make any legitimate counter arguments of your own, often refuse to give responses that have a word count over single digits (although that could just reflect your limited thought process), and do nothing but insult people in ways that take all the fun out of debating.

You provide nothing of value to this site.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

I'm pretty sure it was said that Pre-Training SSJ Gotenks would be enough to overpower Fat Buu, and Base Gotenks alone managed to take beatings from Fat Buu better than Majin Vegeta, who was ultimately killed in the fight with Buu, so I think Goku may scale to SSJ Gotenks Pre-Training as both were stated to be capable of defeating Buu, as well as Gotenks being the only one other than Goku to give Buu a proper challenge

SSJ3 Goku > Fat Buu > Base Gotenks > Majin Vegeta = SSJ2 Goku

SSJ Gotenks > Fat Buu as well

 

[Eseseso]

I'm pretty sure it was said that Pre-Training SSJ Gotenks would be enough to overpower Fat Buu, and Base Gotenks alone managed to take beatings from Fat Buu better than Majin Vegeta, who was ultimately killed in the fight with Buu, so I think Goku may scale to SSJ Gotenks Pre-Training as both were stated to be capable of defeating Buu, as well as Gotenks being the only one other than Goku to give Buu a proper challenge

SSJ3 Goku > Fat Buu > Base Gotenks > Majin Vegeta = SSJ2 Goku

SSJ Gotenks > Fat Buu as well

1. Wasn't SSJ Gotenks stated to be above SSJ3 Goku? I mean, it's on his current vs battles profile. That makes it complicated.

2. I don't think a >=50x multiplier above SSJ2 would be accepted for SSJ3. Even if it was, it would be scaling and calcing chaos, and 90% of the site would want to kill me.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

1. Wasn't SSJ Gotenks stated to be above SSJ3 Goku? I mean, it's on his current vs battles profile. That makes it complicated.

No. He was just stated to surpass Innocent Buu. I don't think there's a scan saying he also surpassed Goku. Goku was also dead so he couldn't fight anymore on Earth by the time Gotenks first appeared

 

[Eseseso]

No. He was just stated to surpass Innocent Buu. I don't think there's a scan saying he also surpassed Goku. Goku was also dead so he couldn't fight anymore on Earth by the time Gotenks first appeared

1. It's currently on Gotenks vs profile.

2. IIRC, the Daizenshuu called Gotenks above all the other heroes (or something like that), which is why this wiki puts him above Goku.

 

[speedster352]

It seems fine I agree

 

[Jibz]

Because it’s Eseseso

Grow up : )

Following the thread

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

1. It's currently on Gotenks vs profile.

Yes and it has no scans to justify it so it may need to be removed

2. IIRC, the Daizenshuu called Gotenks above all the other heroes (or something like that), which is why this wiki puts him above Goku.

All the other heroes doesn't include Goku since he was dead, meaning he couldn't stay and fight Buu anymore. Besides, Gotenks only fused after Goku returned to the afterlife

 

[thetechmaster36]

1. It's currently on Gotenks vs profile.

On his profile, but without a scan.

2. IIRC, the Daizenshuu called Gotenks above all the other heroes (or something like that), which is why this wiki puts him above Goku.

A scan of this would be nice, because if it does exist, then that should go on Gotenks' profile.

 

[Eseseso]

Grow up : )

Not sure that's possible for him.

No. He was just stated to surpass Innocent Buu. I don't think there's a scan saying he also surpassed Goku. Goku was also dead so he couldn't fight anymore on Earth by the time Gotenks first appeared

Just checked a vs thread for Gotenks vs Kid Buu, and here's what I found:

His character profile in the Daizenshuu 7 states that "his strength surpassed Vegeta and the others", which most likely includes Goku as well. It's one of the first images that come up when you search "gotenks daizenshuu" on Google.

So no, we can't scale SSJ3 Goku to SSJ Pre-RoSaT Gotenks.

Honestly for the better, because I'd look like a hypocritical ass if I proposed that SSJ3 is >=50x SSJ2, not to mention it wouldn't make sense like the 4x one would FRA.

Yes and it has no scans to justify it so it may need to be removed

All the other heroes doesn't include Goku since he was dead, meaning he couldn't stay and fight Buu anymore. Besides, Gotenks only fused after Goku returned to the afterlife

On his profile, but without a scan.

A scan of this would be nice, because if it does exist, then that should go on Gotenks' profile.

1. See the above point.

2. Look, if you want to challenge what the wiki has accepted on Gotenk's profile, make another thread.

 

[God900]

it's a 40x

x50 multiplier***

 

[God900]

Also, wow Esseso, didn't know you were also into DBZ, thought it was just FT or similar animes

 

[Jibz]

x50 multiplier***

he's saying that ignoring the statement itself, and using inverse logic it'd be 40x boost from base bare minimum. Which'd mean the 50x statement is consistent and can be used.

 

[Eseseso]

Also, wow Esseso, didn't know you were also into DBZ, thought it was just FT or similar animes

1. This onion got layers.

2. Dude, DBZ Kai was my childhood over a decade before I discovered FT or One Piece. Just not crazy about the tiering for it until recently.

And DBS got me through high school.

 

[God900]

he's saying that ignoring the statement itself, and using inverse logic it'd be 40x boost from base bare minimum. Which'd mean the 50x statement is consistent and can be used.

Pretty sure he outright stated that SSJ is only a x40 tho

 

[God900]

1. This onion got layers.

Wydm?

 

[Jibz]

Pretty sure he outright stated that SSJ is only a x40 tho

SSJ1 also has the fact that it's a 40x multiplier at minimum

Context matters, read through the conversation and you'll understand

 

[thetechmaster36]

1. See the above point.

The Daizenshuu mentioning Vegeta over Goku definitely makes it more ambiguous whether or not Gotenks > Goku. Otherwise, it would have mentioned Goku. We already know Goku > Vegeta by the time Gotenks becomes a thing because Goku had been training and attained SSJ3 whereas Vegeta did not (plus, Vegeta was dead lol), so why default to thinking that includes Goku as part of "the others" too?

Besides that, what was the order of events when that statement in the Daizenshuu was made?

 

[Jibz]

Besides that, what was the order of events when that statement in the Daizenshuu was made?

If the statement is disallowed due to the fact Goku isn't included as he's dead. If the statement includes Vegeta, hypothetically if he were dead at the time of the statement, what would the argument be outside of "buh why no mention goku tho?"

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Not sure that's possible for him.


Just checked a vs thread for Gotenks vs Kid Buu, and here's what I found:

His character profile in the Daizenshuu 7 states that "his strength surpassed Vegeta and the others", which most likely includes Goku as well. It's one of the first images that come up when you search "gotenks daizenshuu" on Google.

It doesn't include Goku because he was dead, This is why it was said VEGETA and the others and not GOKU and the others, since it's pretty obvious that SSJ3 Gotenks surpassed Vegeta, so if they wanted to include Goku as the prime example of who Gotenks surpassed, they would've mentioned him instead of Vegeta

 

[thetechmaster36]

If the statement is disallowed due to the fact Goku isn't included as he's dead. If the statement includes Vegeta, hypothetically if he were dead at the time of the statement, what would the argument be outside of "buh why no mention goku tho?"

My logic isn't disallowing the statement because "Goku dead hahaha". My logic is that, because it doesn't explicitly mention Goku (instead, it mentions Vegeta, who is inferior to Goku), there's no reason to assume that the statement of Gotenks being above the others would include Goku. Gilad is the one arguing that Goku dead means he can't be included, not me.

 

[Jibz]

My logic is that, because it doesn't explicitly mention Goku (instead, it mentions Vegeta, who is inferior to Goku), there's no reason to assume that the statement of Gotenks being above the others would include Goku.

Perhaps the added context can explain why it mentions Vegeta by name rather than Goku, though i find the assumption that its listed by strength as iffy, but a fair concern. (Also is Ult Gohan > Vegeta or nah?).

Gilad is the one arguing that Goku dead means he can't be included, not me.

Ah i see, my bad.

 

[thetechmaster36]

Perhaps the added context can explain why it mentions Vegeta by name rather than Goku

Hopefully, yeah

(Also is Ult Gohan > Vegeta or nah?)

I believe so.

 

[Eseseso]

Wydm?

I was joking and saying that I'm not just a big FT/OP fan and that I like other stuff too.

 

[Eseseso]

Also, after hearing your points, I'm going to make a new thread calling out how the Daizenshuu statement about pre-RoSaT SSJ Gotenks being above SSJ3 Goku is likely invalid.

I'm going to go to hell for this.

 

[thetechmaster36]

what a 180 lmao

 

[Eseseso]

what a 180 lmao

If I get booted off the site because of the scaling hell this causes, I'm blaming everyone on this thread lmao

 

[The_Axiom_of_Virgo]

Would a four-times boost have been enough for Gohan to stomp Cell?

IIRC 1st Zenkai (Namek Saga) Vegeta straight up obliterated Dodoria without breaking a sweat and was only roughly ×1.1-1.2 more powerful than him.

Either way I'm indifferent to this CRT but I just wanted to point out multipliers in DBZ have historically shown to be weird.

 

[Eseseso]

I just wanted to point out multipliers in DBZ have historically shown to be weird.

Agreed