Soul King and Yhwach CRT

[Purgy]

Proposing that Yhwach (Soul King Absorbed) and Weakened Soul King should have infinite stamina, I'm open to the idea that Yhwach's rating should be listed as a "likely", the Soul King however should get a full rating.

The reasoning is as follows;

Weakened Soul King was able to sustain the existence of the Bleach universe for at least a million years with zero signs of strain or fatigue

We know this was around a million years because it's stated that The Soul King had been isolated in his crystal thing for that long, and that's also roughly how long ago the primordial world existed.

Spoiler

"The Soul King you so desperately protected is the savior of humanity that my ancestor trapped."

"That means that Yhwach was trying to save his ancestor, or perhaps someone who should be called father."

"And the fate he needed saving from was isolation for one million years, unable to live or die!"

-Bleach Can't Fear Your Own World Vol 3. Chapter 22

If sustaining a universal sized realm for at least a million years wasn't enough to justify such a rating, well, we can logically assume that The Soul King was intended to do this for literally all of time.

Yhwach obviously absorbed this Soul King, but not only that, he replaced him in sustaining the universe and was clearly shown to be capable of doing so with zero signs of strain.

Some minor supportive evidence I suppose;

• Spoiler: Self-Sustenance

  Weakened Soul King has all three types of self-sustenance, which I've read helps qualify for infinite stamina
• Spoiler: The Hogyoku

  Aizen has "Nigh-unlimited" stamina due to the Hogyoku and one of the components of the Hogyoku were fragments of The Soul King that Aizen fed to it
  -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  "You know that I was shaving away the souls of the people in the Rukongai and offering them to the incomplete Hogyoku, don't you?"
  
  "Yes."
  
  "With some of them, though they did not satisfy the Hogyoku, it exhibited a very strong reaction. When I researched further I found it reacted to a certain girl whose konpaku I had taken. To be more accurate, it seemed to react to the "nail" that was intermingling in her konpaku."
  
  Aizen had continued to research the Hogyoku for a way to bring down the royal palace and put himself in heaven. No matter how many hundreds of souls he fed it, the Hogyoku showed no signs of becoming complete. That was why Aizen wanted the other Hogyoku that Kisuke Urahara had created, but in the process of his research, he had by coincidence noticed the existence of the "nails" and the special abilities of Fullbringers.
  
  "Although a substantial part of her soul had been stolen, she did not die, and that girl continues to have the qualities of a Soul Reaper even now. It is likely that the "nail" had a certain degree of influence on her. There might have been something other than her qualities as a Soul Reaper that she had lost."
  
  "When you speak of "nails"...is that a metaphor?"
  
  "No. I mean a nail."
  
  At that point, Aizen smiled boldy and gave an explanation that was beyond what Tosen could have imagined. "A part that had been carved away in the distant past by the ancestors of the Soul Reapers, a part of the Reio's body."
  
  -Bleach Can't Fear Your Own World Vol 2. Interlude
• Spoiler: Weak evidence

  The Soul King is a being that is neither dead nor alive, so it could be argued that things like stamina and fatigue aren't applicable to him
  -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  "The Reio was dead from the start?"
  
  "Close. Very close. The thing they forced the name Soul King on indeed was not living. However, it was not dead either."
  
  -Bleach Can't Fear Your Own World Vol 3. Chapter 22

There are zero antifeats for this to my knowledge, neither Soul King Absorbed Yhwach nor The Soul King himself ever showed any sign of fatigue or low energy

If accepted, it would look like the following on their respective profiles

Yhwach;

Stamina: Extremely high, likely Infinite after absorbing The Soul King (Yhwach absorbed The Soul King who maintained the existence of the Bleach universe for over a million years, Yhwach himself ended up replacing the Soul King in maintaining the universe after the latters death and subsequent absorption)

Soul King;

Stamina: Infinite (The Soul King was able to maintain the existence of the Bleach universe for over a million years with zero signs of exhaustion)

 

[Dalesean027]

This looks good and is quite sensible I'm following and agree, wishing this crt well

 

[KarematsuShinjuu]

Agree with Soul King, disagree with Yhwach. He needs the cycle of war for sustenance as he regresses to an infantile state if he does not keep imparting and receiving his soul. Nothing indicates this changed when he absorbed the Soul King, he didn't sustain the world for more than a day when fully functional and his corpse sustains the verse right now which is pretty close to an infantile state. We directly know that he can't live unchanged forever (and be fully functional, I might add) and as of now no evidence points otherwise.

was clearly shown to be capable of doing so with zero signs of strain.

Since his plan was to merge the worlds to eliminate the concept of life and death via domino effect, it would've also ended his requirement for feeding on the souls of others, for the lack of a better phrase.

Edit: Direct proof he needs to reabsorb his souls back is the final Auswahlen, showing he clearly still needs the souls.

 

[Purgy]

Agree with Soul King, disagree with Yhwach. He needs the cycle of war for sustenance as he regresses to an infantile state if he does not keep imparting and receiving his soul. Nothing indicates this changed when he absorbed the Soul King, he didn't sustain the world for more than a day when fully functional and his corpse sustains the verse right now which is pretty close to an infantile state. We directly know that he can't live unchanged forever (and be fully functional, I might add) and as of now no evidence points otherwise.

Yhwach regressing has absolutely nothing to do with stamina, nor can you prove he retained that weakness after absorbing the Soul King since it was never actually brought up again or shown.

If SK gets it, Yhwach most likely should as well, Yhwach gets everything Weakened SK has due to absorbing him, he even gained SK's undying state.

Since his plan was to merge the worlds to eliminate the concept of life and death via domino effect, it would've also ended his requirement for feeding on the souls of others, for the lack of a better phrase.

Baseless, that wasn't the reason for Yhwach wanting to do it at all, nor was it ever said that would be the case.

 

[KarematsuShinjuu]

Yhwach regressing has absolutely nothing to do with stamina,

He can't fight infinitely (i.e. infinite stamina) if he still needs to reabsorb the souls back. He will need to reabsorb the souls to keep going after a period of time i.e. not infinite.

nor can you prove he retained that weakness after absorbing the Soul King

The burden of proof doesn't lie on me, but here: He did the Auswahlen again when going back to Soul Society clearly showing he needed the souls to be reabsorbed. There is no other reason for him to do it, unless if you believe a tier 2 dude needs a couple of tier 6 dudes to achieve a tier 2 feat.

since it was never actually brought up again or shown.

My guy, sometimes the author doesn't need to beat you over the head with a character's weakness for it to matter. He is still dependent on Auswahlen (which is just a sped up soul shuffle for the lack of a better phrase) for sustenance.

If SK gets it, Yhwach most likely should as well, Yhwach gets everything Weakened SK has due to absorbing him

Baseless if he clearly needs the soul absorption. Yhwach should still keep his own abilities when absorbing someone, and one of his "abilities" is being dependent on soul absorption. See above for proof that it isn't gone. What I'm trying to say is that is he doesn't mitigate his own weaknesses when absorbing someone else (see his weakness to Still Silver, which the soul king itself shouldn't be weak to) and the SK he did absorb wasn't exactly active himself.

Baseless, that wasn't the reason for Yhwach wanting to do it at all nor was it ever said that would be the case.

That isn't intended as character motivation either.

If SK gets it, Yhwach most likely should as well, Yhwach gets everything Weakened SK has due to absorbing him, he even gained SK's undying state.

Undying state doesn't mean a fully functional state. Let me use your own "proofs" here lol:

"And the fate he needed saving from was isolation for one million years, unable to live or die!"
"The Reio was dead from the start?"
"Close. Very close. The thing they forced the name Soul King on indeed was not living. However, it was not dead either."

Hmm, sounds suspiciously similar to the regressed state of a certain someone. Maybe absorbing a vegetable doesn't mitigate Yhwach's weakness to regress to a vegetative state, and maybe this has already been proven.

undying state

Again, to hammer this home, that undying state can't be used for infinite stamina either. This is a verus wiki, and infinite stamina is clearly stated to account the following:
"Infinite stamina should only apply to characters that can use their abilities any number of times without exhaustion."
Yhwach can get exhausted i.e regress to his infantile state, and (weakened) SK is clearly not capable of actively using any of his abilities till Yhwach absorbed him.

I know this is slightly rambly, but try to see the point I'm making here.

EDIT: I should add that sustaining the universe isn't something one actively does as a dead to rights Yhwach can do it, and a weakened SK can do it. Reiatsu has been stated to be passive emission from a living being, and CFYOW and the Hell one-shot have stated that reiryoku lingers after someone's death. None of these are active abilities. Just those isn't applicable for infinite stamina per this wiki's rules anyways. What is is that they have infinite reiryoku thus infinite stamina, but this specific statement only applies to the SK who doesn't need soul distribution to keep going as far as we know, but Yhwach does so can't use his abilities indefinitely.

 

[Purgy]

Spoiler

He can't fight infinitely (i.e. infinite stamina) if he still needs to reabsorb the souls back. He will need to reabsorb the souls to keep going after a period of time i.e. not infinite.

Again, Yhwach regressing isn't relevant to stamina

You're using a weakness that was never fully explained or shown nor actually brought up more than once, you can't even prove that Yhwach still has to do that after absorbing The Soul King.

The burden of proof doesn't lie on me here, but here: He did the Auswahlen again when going back to Soul Society clearly showing he needed the souls to be reabsorbed. There is no other reason for him to do it, unless if you believe a tier 2 dude needs a couple of tier 6 dudes to achieve a tier 2 feat.

More pure headcanon, Yhwach never said or implied that he absorbed the Sternritters because he was about to regress or anything of the sort, in fact, he explicitly says he absorbed them because he no longer needed them.

My guy, sometimes the author doesn't need to beat you over the head with a character's weakness for it to matter. He is still dependent on Auswahlen (which is just a sped up soul shuffle for the lack of a better phrase) for sustenance.

It's a weakness that has nothing to do with stamina, was never fully explained or shown, and was never actually brought up again aside from its initial explanation.

Yhwach never said "Oh shit, I gotta absorb some souls real quick before I turn back into a child" at any point, it was a weakness Kubo threw in there but never actually fleshed out.

Baseless if he clearly needs the soul absorption. Yhwach should still keep his own abilities when absorbing someone, and one of his "abilities" is being dependent on soul absorption. See above for proof that it isn't gone.

Dependant on soul absorption isn't an ability

You have zero proof that he retained it, the weakness was never ever brought up again aside from the original explanation.

That isn't intended as character motivation either.

So then why bring it up? You were trying to claim that Yhwach removing the boundary between life and death would somehow get rid of his weakness, which is pure headcanon, like, nothing supports that whatsoever, nor was it even his reason for attempting to do so.

Undying state doesn't mean a fully functional state. Let me use your own "proofs" here lol:

Not what I said, don't strawman me.

"And the fate he needed saving from was isolation for one million years, unable to live or die!"
"The Reio was dead from the start?"
"Close. Very close. The thing they forced the name Soul King on indeed was not living. However, it was not dead either."

Hmm, sounds suspiciously similar to the regressed state of a certain someone.

Have you actually read the novel? It's never once said that SK has to absorb souls to not regress, in fact, it's never even said he was capable of absorbing souls.

Again, to hammer this home, that undying state can't be used for infinite stamina either. This is a verus wiki, and infinite stamina is clearly stated to account the following:
"Infinite stamina should only apply to characters that can use their abilities any number of times without exhaustion."
Yhwach can get exhausted i.e regress to his infantile state, and (weakened) SK is clearly not capable of actively using any of his abilities till Yhwach absorbed him.

You clearly misunderstood why I brought up the undying state, it was only to show that Yhwach gains everything of the person he absorbs, even facets of their being like the undying state, if SK has infinite stamina, so does Yhwach after absorbing him.

I know this is slightly rambly, but try to see the point I'm making here.

I don't see the point you're making at all

To reiterate, Yhwach's weakness that was never fleshed out nor actually shown has absolutely nothing to do with stamina.

 

[LordGinSama]

I agree with Purgy, the OP is pretty straightforward.

 

[Bernkastelll]

Doesnt Yhwach still sleeps? I am neutral about him, agree with Soul King

 

[LordGinSama]

Also wasn't Yhwach passively sustaining the realms despite being a literal corpse? A golden rule of Bleach is that the heart needs to pump to produce Reiatsu, and as a corpse Yhwach obviously wouldn't have a heartbeat to produce Reiatsu.

 

[Purgy]

Doesnt Yhwach still sleeps? I am neutral about him, agree with Soul King

Yhwach was shown sleeping, but choosing to sleep =/= needing to sleep, Yhwach was waiting for Ichigo so he took a nap on the throne.

There's clearly more evidence in support of The Soul King, hence the likely for Yhwach instead of a full rating.

 

[Bernkastelll]

Yhwach was shown sleeping, but choosing to sleep =/= needing to sleep, Yhwach was waiting for Ichigo so he took a nap on the throne.

There's clearly more evidence in support of The Soul King, hence the likely for Yhwach instead of a full rating.

Thats ok then

 

[KarematsuShinjuu]

Again, Yhwach regressing isn't relevant to stamina

Read the wiki rules on infinite stamina.

You're using a weakness that was never fully explained or shown nor actually brought up more than once, you can't even prove that Yhwach still has to do that after absorbing The Soul King.

doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Don't ignore actual canon for your thread.

More pure headcanon, Yhwach never said or implied that he absorbed the Sternritters because he was about to regress or anything of the sort, in fact, he explicitly says he absorbed them because he no longer needed them.

Which is what he said to Ichigo, who has no idea about the regressing stuff. He retains his weaknesses after absorbing SK (see still silver) and regressing is one of them.

It's a weakness that has nothing to do with stamina,

Bruv read the infinite stamina's explanation on the wiki

was never fully explained or shown, and was never actually brought up again aside from its initial explanation.

Again don't discount headcanon because you don't like it.

Yhwach never said "Oh shit, I gotta absorb some souls real quick before I turn back into a child" at any point, it was a weakness Kubo threw in there but never actually fleshed out.

He did say that he was glad James died so he could live to see another day, so yes he actually did.

Dependant on soul absorption isn't an ability

Ability: possession of the means or skill to do something. Yhwach has the ability to absorb souls with the intricately tied in fact that he regresses.

You have zero proof that he retained it, the weakness was never ever brought up again aside from the original explanation.

He retains the still silver weakness, something you imply later SK doesn't have.

Not what I said, don't strawman me.

What you said is that he has infinite stamina, and it needs to be a fully functional state.

Have you actually read the novel? It's never once said that SK has to absorb souls to not regress, in fact, it's never even said he was capable of absorbing souls.

Cool, Yhwach's weaknesses aren't SK's weaknesses. It's the entire reason I agree on SK and disagree with Yhwach.

You clearly misunderstood why I brought up the undying state, it was only to show that Yhwach gains everything of the person he absorbs, even facets of their being like the undying state, if SK has infinite stamina, so does Yhwach after absorbing him.

You clearly misunderstood me throughout the post. SK has infinite stamina on the account of his reiryoku, Yhwach regresses because of his dependency on soul absorption which you quite nicely point out isn't something SK has.

To reiterate, Yhwach's weakness that was never fleshed out

Your incredulity doesn't disprove his weakness, mate.

nor actually shown has absolutely nothing to do with stamina.

Look at the page for infinite stamina. If you can't use your abilities infinitely, it can't be added.

Also wasn't Yhwach passively sustaining the realms despite being a literal corpse? A golden rule of Bleach is that the heart needs to pump to produce Reiatsu, and as a corpse Yhwach obviously wouldn't have a heartbeat to produce Reiatsu.

Hi Lord Gin, see the edit in my post above. I'll reiterate it if you want me to.

I don't see the point you're making at all

Cool.
1. Yhwach has a weakness which disqualifies his key for being applicable for infinite stamina. Read above to see why.
2. The burden of proof is on you to prove that he lost that weakness because this is your thread. Prove that, and explain: why he would lose that specific weakness but not the still silver weakness which as you imply SK won't have.
3. Whining about clearly established canon isn't going to change that it is canon.

 

[Purgy]

Put your posts in a spoiler tag so my thread isn't covered in walls of text please.

 

[KarematsuShinjuu]

Yhwach was shown sleeping, but choosing to sleep =/= needing to sleep, Yhwach was waiting for Ichigo so he took a nap on the throne.

That is extremely baseless headcanon. He wasn't choosing to sleep, Haschwalth had his powers during that sleep and he was also choosing not to leave the wahrwelt, and defending Yhwach. Why are you manipulating and denying stuff that doesn't fit your CRT?

 

[KarematsuShinjuu]

Put your posts in a spoiler tag so my thread isn't covered in walls of text please.

I'll do it from now on after you direct me to a quick tutorial on how that works. However:
1. Don't ignore stuff that you don't like.
2. The previous wall of text specifically is structured as a reply to yours, which is also not exactly edited, wrapped and presented in a neat bowtie. A forum is intended for discussion and walls of text (which are also accompanied by a neat TL;DR I might add) shouldn't exactly be disregarded because someone doesn't like it.
I'll edit the damn post if you want to be peckish about it, but don't assume everything is gong to be this way, especially when your own replies aren't. Don't be so terse when someone disagrees is all I'm saying.

 

[Purgy]

Spoiler

Read the wiki rules on infinite stamina.

There are no rules for infinite stamina, by definition, infinite stamina is the ability to never run out of energy nor get fatigued, Yhwach qualifies.

By your logic, someone with a terminal illness can't possibly have infinite stamina, because they'll eventually die and be unable to use their abilities infinitely.

Even if we take Yhwach's weakness as valid, it doesn't change the fact that until he regresses, he can use his abilities infinitely with no fatigue.

doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Don't ignore actual canon for your thread.

Never said it doesn't exist, I am saying however that the weakness is vague, both due to the fact that it was haphazardly explained and never brought up again.

Which is what he said to Ichigo, who has no idea about the regressing stuff. He retains his weaknesses after absorbing SK (see still silver) and regressing is one of them.

What does that matter? Again, Yhwach explicitly explained why he absorbed the Sternritter, so why are you trying to twist it into him needing to due to his weakness?

Even if we agree that Yhwach does need to absorb souls, it doesn't change the fact that that literally has nothing to do with stamina

We don't even know the timeframe for his weakness, does it take a hundred years of not absorbing souls? two hundred? five hundred? It's really vague and doesn't disprove anything.

Bruv read the infinite stamina's explanation on the wiki

There are no rules for infinite stamina, by definition, infinite stamina is the ability to never run out of energy nor get fatigued, Yhwach qualifies.

By your logic, someone with a terminal illness can't possibly have infinite stamina, because they'll eventually die and be unable to use their abilities infinitely.

Even if we take Yhwach's weakness as valid, it doesn't change the fact that until he regresses, he can use his abilities infinitely with no fatigue.

Again don't discount headcanon because you don't like it.

No idea what you're talking about, I can dismiss your headcanon as much as I want, we use actual evidence here, not theories.

He did say that he was glad James died so he could live to see another day, so yes he actually did.

Can you post a scan of this? I just reread the chapter of Mask's soul returning to Yhwach and he says nothing of the sort.

Ability: possession of the means or skill to do something. Yhwach has the ability to absorb souls with the intricately tied in fact that he regresses.

A weakness of him being dependant on absorbing souls isn't an ability... It's a weakness.

He retains the still silver weakness, something you imply later SK doesn't have.

What are you talking about, I never once even mentioned Still Silver.

What you said is that he has infinite stamina, and it needs to be a fully functional state.

What is the basis for this?

Cool, Yhwach's weaknesses aren't SK's weaknesses. It's the entire reason I agree on SK and disagree with Yhwach.

That's the issue, you don't get to agree with SK and disagree with Yhwach, Yhwach absorbed him and we treat him as gaining everything Weakened SK has.

If you disagree with Yhwach, then SK isn't getting it either.

You clearly misunderstood me throughout the post. SK has infinite stamina on the account of his reiryoku, Yhwach regresses because of his dependency on soul absorption which you quite nicely point out isn't something SK has.

The same Reiryoku that Yhwach absorbed? Yhwach gained SK's Reiryoku, how can you argue he doesn't have infinite stamina if you believe SK does?

For the 30th time, Yhwach's regression weakness has nothing to do with him having infinite stamina.

Your incredulity doesn't disprove his weakness, mate.

It's not incredulity, it's a fact, Yhwach's weakness was never fleshed out nor actually brought up again, it was completely abandoned as a concept.

Look at the page for infinite stamina. If you can't use your abilities infinitely, it can't be added.

There are no rules for infinite stamina, by definition, infinite stamina is the ability to never run out of energy nor get fatigued, Yhwach qualifies.

By your logic, someone with a terminal illness can't possibly have infinite stamina, because they'll eventually die and be unable to use their abilities infinitely.

Even if we take Yhwach's weakness as valid, it doesn't change the fact that until he regresses, he can use his abilities infinitely with no fatigue.

Cool.
1. Yhwach has a weakness which disqualifies his key for being applicable for infinite stamina. Read above to see why.
2. The burden of proof is on you to prove that he lost that weakness because this is your thread. Prove that, and explain: why he would lose that specific weakness but not the still silver weakness which as you imply SK won't have.
3. Whining about clearly established canon isn't going to change that it is canon.

No, the weakness doesn't disqualify anything

Even if we agree he still has the weakness, which is equally as baseless as saying he doesn't, it doesn't matter because the weakness has nothing to do with his stamina rating.

I never once said it wasn't canon, I said it's vague and abandoned, which it is.

 

[Purgy]

I'll do it from now on after you direct me to a quick tutorial on how that works. However:
1. Don't ignore stuff that you don't like.
2. The previous wall of text specifically is structured as a reply to yours, which is also not exactly edited, wrapped and presented in a neat bowtie. A forum is intended for discussion and walls of text (which are also accompanied by a neat TL;DR I might add) shouldn't exactly be disregarded because someone doesn't like it.
I'll edit the damn post if you want to be peckish about it, but don't assume everything is gong to be this way, especially when your own replies aren't. Don't be so terse when someone disagrees is all I'm saying.

I'm not ignoring anything, rather, I've included and refuted every sentence you said in all my replies.

My posts are spoilered, what are you talking about?

Walls of text look terrible and clutter threads, nobody wants to scroll through 50 walls of text.

 

[KarematsuShinjuu]

Put your posts in a spoiler tag so my thread isn't covered in walls of text please.

Here. Can someone tell me how the formatting works here?

 

[Dalesean027]

Here. Can someone tell me how the formatting works here?

Do this "

Spoiler

and

Spoiler

Type "Spoiler" inside bracket's basically and I suppose just copy and paste your arguements in that

You can also double down and bracket inside of another spoiler

Spoiler

Spoiler

like this

 

[Purgy]

Here. Can someone tell me how the formatting works here?

Are we just going to post walls of text back and forth ad infinitum? Because I really don't have the energy to see which of us can stonewall for longer

How about this, if the general consensus is to agree with your proposal, in that, Yhwach's weakness makes it impossible for him to have infinite stamina, then fine, that's what we'll go with.

 

[KarematsuShinjuu]

Are we just going to post walls of text back and forth ad infinitum? Because I really don't have the energy to see which of us can stonewall for longer

How about this, if the general consensus is to agree with your proposal, in that, Yhwach's weakness makes it impossible for him to have infinite stamina, then fine, that's what we'll go with.

Spoiler

Considering I wasted an hour of my life trying to argue against a Bleach upgrade of all things, that works way better.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Tell me how exactly would Yhwach be a viable SK to keep the worlds intact if he still needs to absorb souls to not regress? He’s been the SK for like what 15 years as of now?

The entire point of the SK is to be an endless battery. There is no time for breaks and etc. Since stability needs to constantly be maintained.

 

[KarematsuShinjuu]

Tell me how exactly would Yhwach be a viable SK to keep the worlds intact if he still needs to absorb souls to not regress? He’s been the SK for like what 15 years as of now?

The entire point of the SK is to be an endless battery. There is no time for breaks and etc. Since stability needs to constantly be maintained.

He can still regress and be SK, the previous SK was a vegetable. I don't see how this really proves anything. He regressed for the 900 years after his defeat against Yamamoto, didn't stop him for functioning as the father of the quincies. CFYOW states his corpse has enormous amounts of reiryoku so he's the SK and he'll keep his reiryoku when he's regressed.
Also he needed to sleep even after absorbing SK so that's another argument against infinite stamina.

 

[Purgy]

He can still regress and be SK, the previous SK was a vegetable. I don't see how this really proves anything. He regressed for the 900 years after his defeat against Yamamoto, didn't stop him for functioning as the father of the quincies. CFYOW states his corpse has enormous amounts of reiryoku so he's the SK and he'll keep his reiryoku when he's regressed.
Also he needed to sleep even after absorbing SK so that's another argument against infinite stamina.

As I mentioned earlier, choosing to sleep isn't the same thing as needing to, are you going to stare at a wall for ten hours because you don't need to sleep, or are you just going to sleep anyway to pass the time?

And if you consider that an antifeat, well, it may surprise you, but SK himself was sleeping when he was introduced

So I guess there goes the argument for SK having infinite stamina as well, he can sustain the universe passively for over a million years, but he was shown sleeping so he can't have infinite stamina.

 

[KarematsuShinjuu]

As I mentioned earlier, choosing to sleep isn't the same thing as needing to, are you going to stare at a wall for ten hours because you don't need to sleep, or are you just going to sleep anyway to pass the time?

We know Yhwach sleeps out of necessity. It wasn't a normal nap, Jugram switched and everything, and it's extremely important to the plot so I doubt the headcanon of "oh yeah he was bored" makes any sense.

And if you consider that an antifeat, well, it may surprise you, but SK himself was sleeping when he was introduced

SK doesn't sleep out of necessity, at least from what we know. Why are you threatening me with the possibility of an SK upgrade not going through? Full power SK was stronger than sealed SK and if he can passively hold the verse together full power SK can too. There's no antifeats or stated weaknesses here, SK can sleep without it being an antifeat because Kubo didn't go out of his way to explicitly make it a weakness for Reiō. Yhwach and Reiō are still separate beings (using Reiō, the Japanese term, specifically to refer to the previous Soul King or Reiō for convenience) all things considered, and one can have weaknesses other doesn't have. To read more on why I think that way, check out point 4. I apologise in advance if I read like a pompous jackass there, but the main points I mention still stand.

 

[Purgy]

We know Yhwach sleeps out of necessity. It wasn't a normal nap, Jugram switched and everything, and it's extremely important to the plot so I doubt the headcanon of "oh yeah he was bored" makes any sense.

SK doesn't sleep out of necessity, at least from what we know. Why are you threatening me with the possibility of an SK upgrade not going through? Full power SK was stronger than sealed SK and if he can passively hold the verse together full power SK can too. There's no antifeats or stated weaknesses here, SK can sleep without it being an antifeat because Kubo didn't go out of his way to explicitly make it a weakness for Reiō. Yhwach and Reiō are still separate beings (using Reiō, the Japanese term, specifically to refer to the previous Soul King or Reiō for convenience) all things considered, and one can have weaknesses other doesn't have. To read more on why I think that way, check out point 4. I apologise in advance if I read like a pompous jackass there, but the main points I mention still stand.

I mean, even if that's true, the part about sleeping being an antifeat for infinite stamina, is when the sleeping is done to regain energy.

If Yhwach is doing it because he has to switch power, then it isn't an antifeat for infinite stamina.

What evidence is there that SK doesn't sleep out of necessity?

How am I threatening you with anything lol, I'm just pointing out flaws in your logic, if sleeping disproves infinite stamina, then SK doesn't get it either, he was shown on panel to be sleeping, this is irrefutable.

 

[KarematsuShinjuu]

What I'm going to do is get a bunch of quotes from this wiki and let you decide:

"Stamina is an attribute that allows a certain character to remain active, exert itself to prolonged periods of time, and recover from ordeals."
"Infinite stamina should only apply to characters that can use their abilities any number of times without exhaustion."

Do you agree with the basic premise that infinite stamina means that the character can remain active for an infinite period of time and be able to use their abilities throughout that period? Is that a somewhat decent summary of what infinite stamina is on this website?

Spoiler: Soul King

Soul King: We did see him sleep, but we don't know that if it was out of necessity or not. We barely know anything about the guy, and considering the amount of information we have on him, he wouldn't even have a profile if it wasn't important for the cosmology and plot. That said, neither does Reio have anything to indicate either ways about his need to sleep or lack thereof, we can't argue on that matter.

Spoiler: Yhwach

Yhwach: We can argue on this though, because it is already established that going by the in universe established canon, he needs to sleep for some unspecified reason. Look, I personally thought it was because of the Kaiser Gesang prophecy not being complete yet, but who knows. The point is, he needs to sleep and this is true even when he absorbed the Soul King. It is a massively important plot point even, because that indirectly leads to his death (because Haschwalth sent him a future disguised as a dream). It is quite clearly established that he needs to sleep. I'd say that the regressing stuff, which while imo already proves that he can't use his abilities forever, isn't explicitly shown after he absorbed Reio (and while I personally believe there is no reason to believe he lost that weakness because he retains everything else he has, down to his other two weaknesses: Uryuu and Still Silver, it isn't explicitly shown. You can't argue against it because nothing indicates otherwise, but for that it wasn't explicit) BUT the sleep thing IS explicitly shown. It IS something that the author didn't just throw away. It does cause the infinite stamina thing fall apart if we go by the rules established above, that are of this wiki, and nothing much can be done about it.

Look, I've been trying to find flaws in my own arguments and it wasn't for the sleep thing one could argue that he had nigh-infinite stamina added with the small note 'As long as the countless quincies live and die in the Verse, Yhwach can function normally." Look at my profile or post history ffs I'm quite obviously always ready for a Bleach upgrade. But he explicitly needs to sleep. Going by the above assumptions taken directly from this wiki, he can't have infinite stamina. Soul King has too little information on him to tilt the argument either ways, but Yhwach has info on him and that established canon points pretty clearly to him not having infinite stamina.

 

[Antvasima]

Purgy asked me to close this thread. Is that acceptable?

 

[Purgy]

Purgy asked me to close this thread. Is that acceptable?

Acceptable for who?

I've lost interest in the topic and have no intention of arguing it further or applying any of the results.

If there's still a reason for it to remain open beyond that, then fine, I guess.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I will close this then.