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Solar System level Darth Vader ?

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LordGriffin1000

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I don't think we expect that statement here but I could be wrong, it's been awhile since it was brought up, at least to my knowledge.
 

Reppuzan

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We've gone over this time and again. No.

Vader was at Sidious' mercy at any given time and was blatantly inferior to Sidious' full power.
 

WeeklyBattles

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@Jobbo The top tiers of Star Wars are Multi-Solar Ssytem level and the god tiers are Universe level+
 
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I too am surprised that Star Wars has such high-tiered characters. I'm only familiar with the movies and I know the movies don't portray those kind of feats. I checked out some profiles and loled a bit at their reaction speeds. My brain goes back to the light saber fights in a new hope. Btw who would be the universe level characters?
 
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@Heatforce The bedlam spirits are the only characters listed as universal+, though it's possible that 1s, wielders of the Mortis blade & people who have achieved oneness with the force are too.


@TeenAngel101 Why don't we consider this statement, just out of curiosity ?
 

Reppuzan

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@Heatforce

Sidious can casually manipulative the movement of stars even in his aged body, and upon getting one of his younger clone bodies he became a nexus of the Dark Side that required the combined might of every Jedi in history to defeat.
 
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Yeah, prime Sidious & Luke (& potentially even an 'unbeatable' focused Kenobi if we take Filoni literally) might be universal too, their power was sort of left open ended.
 
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LordWhis said:
@TeenAngel101 Why don't we consider this statement, just out of curiosity ?
Because it's obviously not true. Vader doesn't hold a candle to Sidious, and has been consistently portrayed as his bitch.
 
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@TeenAngel101 couldn't someone 25% stronger than someone make them their bitch ? also Vader peaked in ROTJ, didn't he, so he could have been pre-prime when portrayed as Vader's bitch, also he does have a few good feats Sidious closer to his death, Sidious considered his power incredible, & DE Luke who didn't do that badly against him was noted to be much weaker than Vader, & several what-ifs portray Vader as more powerful than Yoda.
 
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Also, Regan who is fodder compared to Sidious is listed as 4B, so there is scope for a 4B Vader, 4B is a very big tier, our 2nd largest by a mile. Sidious seems to be very high end 4B, bordering on 4A, a Vader that is 1 trillionth of him is very possible.
 
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Another problem is if Vader scales to Sidious by extension so would Every major force user from the Old Republic era
 
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I think he should still at least be High 4-C still, Sidious considered Vader's power incredible and feares what he could become, Vader is > Dooku is at every point in Legends stated to be comparable or superior to Mace Windu by both word of god and other statements

Vader might realize he doesnt have a chance against Sidious, but hed only need to be 25% weaker to realize that. Anyone here who has actually been in a fight in their life will know that, especially if you effectively have weak points similar to Pacers. Brief exposure to an enraged Sidious' full power in ROTS didnt even kill Vader, it was damage to his cybernetics, particularly his respirator and other organ supplements
 
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1) On the Sidious fearing Vader, youd have to give me time to pull up that one, a friend on Discord showed me the quote once, Id have to ask him wherenthat was when hea online

2) Mace and Dooku being comparable to eachother is stated many times, you could easily hunt this down. If anything, Dooku was SUPERIOR to Windu, as "The New Essential Guide to characters" states that only Dooku and Yoda ever bested Windu, "Labrynth of Evil" states he was the orders most agile instructor and swordmaster. "Yoda: Dark Rendesvous" states that aside from Yoda (who is > Windu and Dooku, who are as we agree, a tier below him), only Windu wouldve been his equal on neutral ground (which is true since this was two and a half years into the war, where Anakin was more or less an 8 to Dookus 9, so to speak, going to a 9 near the time of ROTS). Its also implied that Dooku was, similar to Windu, a master of all lightsaber forms or at least multiple forms, as he taught Grievous, who used Jarkai, Qui Gon Jinn who was taught in Ataru, Soresu (he had to since he taught Obi Wan Kenobi, whonused it against Maul) and its implied he integreated Djem So into form since he relied on strength (which would explain how Anakin learned it despite Kenoni not having any accolades for it, Kenibi knew it but didnt use it). and again, he instructed the jedi and was one of the best teachers (all jedi learn Shii Cho). He also likely knew a lot of Niman since he was highly skilled in integrated force based attacks into his lightsaber sequences, a core principle of niman.


In summary, he had to be at least moderately competent in Shii Cho (known by all jedi), Makashi (his preferred form) Soresu (taught Qui Gon eho taught Kenobi, who knew Soresu enough to contend with a master of Juyo in Maul), Ataru (taught Qui Gon), Ataru (taught Qui Gon), Djem So (also taught Qui Gon who relied heavily on strength, even if Dooku himself didnt. Qui Gons Padawan taught the premier Djem So user of the Era in Anakin), Niman (this is conjecture to a degree on my part, admittedly, but it does fit into his use of the force being integrated into his dueling, meaning he at least grasps its principle, even if he isnt jack-of-all-trades as a fighter), and Jar Kai (taught Grievous and Ventress). This leaves only Juyo/Vaapad.

3) Vader died way too slowly for it to be anyrhing else. He wasnt fried, his cybernetics were. If not he wouldve died on the spot rather than taking a few minutes.
 
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Reppuzan said:
@Bruce
You still haven't provided any tangible evidence to back your claims.
I just cited multiple EU Books with regards to Dooku, waiting a response on Discord with regards to Vader


How is "Vader dying from shockwaves" backed up? Matt didn't cite any source afaik that claims that, and it's far less outlandish than Vader simply dying from his cybernetics being damaged, something Vader himself was afraid of
 

Shadowbokunohero

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lol, Dooku has a literal feat where he duels literally both Windu and Kenobi at the same time,Darth Vader isn't 4-B but him being High 6-A is laughable
 
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@Shadowbokunohero

I think Dooku is actually considerably superior to Windu, but that's a very impressive feat regardless, care to cite it?
 
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All I've found of Dooku vs Mace is this
Count_dooku.jpg
 

Reppuzan

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@Bruce and Shadow

You can't just talk over us. We need scans and excerpts to confirm what you're claiming in order for it to be actually on the discussion table.
 
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Js250476 said:
I've always thought Dooku fighting Mace was considered PIS since he's weaker then Anaki
Windu himself implies that he himself is weaker than Anakin in one statement

@TeenAngel101

Hardly. Vader godstomped most of his adversaries. Only Ben Kenobi and Luke Skywalker were any real challenge to Vader in the old EU. I remember one comic where Jedi literally had to mob Vader to stand a chance against him.
 
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The Everlasting said:
@Js
Which, even then, was a fight Dooku ran away from. He's definitely not superior to Mace.
Dooku has better things to do than fight to the death against someone he's bested but knows is in his league and could very well defeat him.
 
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Windu moved so fast in his fight with Sidious that he appeared as blurs to Anakin. This is the same Anakin that overpowered and killed Dooku. So no, Dooku is not even close to Windu.
 

The_Everlasting

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"Only Ben Kenobi and Luke Skywalker were any real challenge to Vader in the old EU."

Someone's missing Starkiller, who has the power to kill Vader, and was matched by Jedi Masters like Shaak Ti.

You greatly exaggerate how superior Vader is to a lot of characters.
 

The_Everlasting

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Dooku has better things to do than fight to the death against someone he's bested but knows is in his league and could very well defeat him.

That is not at all what's implied in the fight.
 
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Amlad22 said:
Windu moved so fast in his fight with Sidious that he appeared as blurs to Anakin. This is the same Anakin that overpowered and killed Dooku. So no, Dooku is not even close to Windu.
Windu was heavily amped during that fight, due to his Vaapad form boosting his power by effectively feeding off of Sidious
 
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Also wasn't there some Sith from the Old Republic era that p much everyone there scales to that Vader acknowledged was superior to him?
 

Shadowbokunohero

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@Amlad, there are way more statements and feats to support Dooku not being that far behind Windu

Multiple statements and feats> a few vague statements

 

The_Everlasting

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I have yet to see a single quote or scan of Dooku being superior to Mace outside of a like 2-page fight that Dooku ran away from.
 

Reppuzan

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@Shadow

It's still heavily implied in the novelization that Sidious threw the fight in order to gain Anakin's sympathy. It's the same reason why Sidious had plenty of Force Lightning left over to blast Windu out the window and kill him.
 

Shadowbokunohero

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@Repp, I can understand that, then what reason is there for Mace to be High 4-C ? Because of word of god?. if anything Windu has a lot of feats that contradict this rating, besides the fact that WOG isn't exactly the best source, as we all know
 
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I've heard Matt say Mace should be above Barakiss so that's probably why he's high 4-C besides Sidious
 
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It's better to only scale Yoda to Sidious, as he was citied as both the most powerful Jedi of the era and fought Sidious on even ground with his own power.

Also, Yoda needs to be updated.
 
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Not only is the canonicity of that game dubious, but the writers of Clone Wars don't really take the power of the EU into consideration.

Besides, it's probably best not to scale Windu. Just Yoda.
 
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Aside from Vaapad being a heavy amp as the Novel makes clear, the following contradict this rating, among many other things

-Being pressured in a duel by Grievous

-Being bested by Dooku

-Musing Anakin was the strongest jedi

-Being pressured in a duel by Ventress and visibly making effort

-Being pressured by Sora Bulq

-Quinlan Vos giving him a decent fight
 
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@Shadow don't know Matt said he was in the upgrade thread and I trust his judgement when it comes to Star Wars
 

The_Everlasting

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"Musing Anakin was the strongest jedi"

That's obviously bullshit though, unless you want to imply Anakin is comparable to Yoda.
 
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The Everlasting said:
You mean besides him being constantly stated to be second only to Yoda in power?
1) You forget that part where he was equal or weaker than jedi Dooku, and even if he was that doesn't mean the gap between them isn't massive.
 

Shadowbokunohero

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I really love this wiki so much but when I see things like this, it really upsets me, it's like you guys take the things you like into consideration and stuff you don't, you just ignore. Cherrypicking, Plain and simple.

I rather just ignore Legends stuff all together as I see there's no real debate here. everyone just nods their heads to one person claim and accepts what they say as absolute truth.
 
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The Everlasting said:
"Musing Anakin was the strongest jedi"
That's obviously bullshit though, unless you want to imply Anakin is comparable to Yoda.
Well, considering he defeated Dooku who was "far from easily" inferior to Yoda, and that he is considerably superior to Kit Fisto feat wise who briefly contended with Sidious, it's hardly a stretch
 

The_Everlasting

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Also, I can't help but notice how you guys are trying to disagree with High 4-C Mace after we disagree with using it to upgrade Dooku.
 

Shadowbokunohero

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The Everlasting said:
Shadowbokunohero said:
There's nothing to suggest Mace is High 4-C besides WOG
You mean besides him being constantly stated to be second only to Yoda in power?

Forgetting the fact that Vader is sited as one of the most powerful Sith to have ever lived and Yet here we are.
 

Reppuzan

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@Shadow

Yet Vader was at Starkiller's mercy, Luke's mercy, and Sidious' mercy in the Legends canon.

Luke was utterly wrecked by Sidious' Force Lightning.
 

Shadowbokunohero

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I still believe Mace is Superior to Both Anakin,Dooku and likely Vader.

But there's no way that the Gap is as Large as High 4-C and High 6-A
 
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The Everlasting said:
Also, I can't help but notice how you guys are trying to disagree with High 4-C Mace after we disagree with using it to upgrade Dooku.
I'm not disagreeing with that claim, I'm simply saying Mace/Talzin/Naga Sadow and a few others aren't the only ones with that tier in SW.
 

The_Everlasting

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Starkiller harmed Vader with far more than just Force Lightning and killed Vader with Lightsaber attacks in the Dark Side ending.

He didn't just solely go "lol Force Lightning".
 

The_Wright_Way

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Both Galen Marek and Luke Skywalker beat Vader. They both got effortlessly destroyed by Palpatine. This would not have happened if they were only 25% weaker.
 

Reppuzan

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On record, only Windu and Yoda have deflected Force Lightning from Sidious until the time of the New Jedi Order.

There's a reason why we place them so much higher than everyone else.
 
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Also apparently a Jedi Master nearly killed Vader as well albeit when Vader was just starting out IIRC https://youtu.be/f5wlUz1T1vI
 
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