Separating power/abilities and Resistance in characters profiles and Hax that has been shown to be negated by higher power.

[Gohanblanco217]

1) Separating Power/abilities and hax resistance from characters profile:

We've seen many characters profiles mixing Powers/abilities and hax resistance together which makes things very messy and it's very hard to read my proposal is when making a new profile for said character we need to separate their hax and abilities into "Power and abilities" Category and hax resistance need to be put in other category like this :

Summary :...........

Powers and Stats :............

Resistance :..........

Attack Potency :.........

Durability :..............

just take this Profile from Omniversal battlefield as an example This would make things much better and well ordered if we do this, if someone want to check hax resistance feats for a character all he has to do is check the character profile and then immediately check the resistance category instead spending his whole life trying to read every single ability until he find some resistance feats.

2) Hax and abilities that were shown to be negated by raw power :

Now I feel that this is something that was discussed many times but I think we should probably make an exception. As we know hax is something that is supposed to ignore stats and logically you can't overcome it by higher stats and the only way to negate them is by either having resistance or by being a higher dimensional being or by existing on a higher plane of existence however some verses in fiction tends to ignore this logic in other words hax that were specifically shown or stated to have limits against characters with higher power/stats logically shouldn't affect other characters from other fictional verses with higher power or it would be NLf to assume so. My proposal is to treat every single hax that were shown to be limited by higher power as "Limited Hax" and there should be a page created for it like this :

"Limited Hax" : are abilities that has shown limits/weaknesses such us abilities that were shown to not be very effective against characthers with higher stats (see Note 1)

Note 1:
not all limited hax can't work on characters with higher stats, it should be taken on a case-by-case basis, and in case it is for a factor not working on higher stats then it should be written in the description of the hax

Something like that

For example hax / abilities like Hakai should be treated as a "limited existence erasure" or Buuhan hax should be treated as limited transmutation as it was shown to not be very effective against characters who are far stronger than him. Just because hax is supposed to ignore durability doesn't mean we shouldn't accept other verses who use a different logic that doesn't match this site rules and they should simply be treated as an exception.

Alright then let's see how this goes.

First Proposal :

Agree :

Disagree : 2

Neutral :

Second Proposal :

Agree :

Disagree :

Neutral : 2

 

[Randomlamdom]

I thought it was standard for profiles to have
Powers and abilities: [[Hax]], [[Hax]], [[Hax]], [[Resistance]] to [[Hax]], [[Hax]]
? Like putting resistances at the end to avoid confusion

 

[manu_zarri]

Disagree with first proposal, we have profile like this wich have multiple keys with their hax and resistance, those keys are pseudo equipiment, and we cannot generalize by making a single thing of resistances.

or like this, wich the key comes from different arcs/time. and he gain other resistances in that arcs or time

so disagree with 1 proposal

 

[manu_zarri]

I thought it was standard for profiles to have
Powers and abilities: [[Hax]], [[Hax]], [[Hax]], [[Resistance]] to [[Hax]], [[Hax]]
? Like putting resistances at the end to avoid confusion

he meant another category of ability for resistances.
Like that

 

[Gohanblanco217]

Disagree with first proposal, we have profile like this wich have multiple keys with their hax and resistance, those keys are pseudo equipiment, and we cannot generalize by making a single thing of resistances.

or like this, wich the key comes from different arcs/time. and he gain other resistances in that arcs or time

so disagree with 1 proposal

Sigh.... What about the second proposal?

 

[manu_zarri]

Sigh.... What about the second proposal?

waiting for more input

 

[manu_zarri]

btw i disagree with making the page, or at least with the name. there are dozens of profiles with "limited hax" but it doesn't have that meaning

 

[Gohanblanco217]

btw i disagree with making the page, or at least with the name. there are dozens of profiles with "limited hax" but it doesn't have that meaning

Most profiles with "Limited hax" are hax that has shown limits if you didn't know about that, the thing is hax that has shown to be negated by higher power should also fit into this category

 

[manu_zarri]

Most profiles with "Limited hax" are hax that has shown limits if you didn't know about that, the thing is hax that has shown to be negated by higher power should also fit into this category

"Limited Hax" : are abilities that has shown limits/weaknesses/they weren't very effective against characters with higher stats ..........

I have problem with this. people can be confused, so it should be worded better.

 

[Gohanblanco217]

I have problem with this. people can be confused, so it should be worded better.

Idk how I can make this any better how about this :

"Limited Hax" : are abilities that has shown limits/weaknesses such us abilities that were shown to not be very effective against characters with higher stats ..........

 

[manu_zarri]

Idk how I can make this any better how about this :

"Limited Hax" : are abilities that has shown limits/weaknesses such us abilities that were shown to not be very effective against characters with higher stats ..........

"Limited Hax" : are abilities that has shown limits/weaknesses or abilities that were shown to not be very effective against characthers (see Note 1)

Note 1
not all limited hax can't work on higher stats, it should be taken on a case-by-case basis, and in case it is for a factor not working on higher stats then it should be written in the description of the hax

 

[Gohanblanco217]

"Limited Hax" : are abilities that has shown limits/weaknesses or abilities that were shown to not be very effective against characthers (see Note 1)

Note 1
not all limited hax can't work on higher stats, it should be taken on a case-by-case basis, and in case it is for a factor not working on higher stats then it should be written in the description of the hax

Ah this is much better

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Idk how I can make this any better how about this :

"Limited Hax" : are abilities that has shown limits/weaknesses such us abilities that were shown to not be very effective against characters with higher stats ..........

It should be "weak hax" in that case...
Limited implies there is some limit in hax mechanic itself rather than potency
But yeah, disagree with first proposal.
2nd neutral,

 

[Gohanblanco217]

It should be "weak hax" in that case...
Limited implies there is some limit in hax mechanic itself rather than potency

Limited hax would imply abilities that have limited mechanics yes but it would also imply hax that were shown to be negated by raw power as stated in OP (Note 1)

 

[Antvasima]

I think that we could write some instruction that encourages our members to split up regular powers and abilities and resistances to separate columns, as many character profile already do, but I do not know if this thread presented how to handle the issue in the best manner.

Anyway, in which instruction page should we mention this? The standard format page?

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

Tbh, I feel like just separating them into tabs is better and more convenient than this.

 

[Gohanblanco217]

Tbh, I feel like just separating them into tabs is better and more convenient than this.

Eh we can probably discuss the first proposal later but for now what about the second proposal? Since it's the most important one

 

[Antvasima]

Tbh, I feel like just separating them into tabs is better and more convenient than this.

Agreed. However, Fandom has not made tabs compatible with mobile viewing yet. I have made them aware of this problem though, and I was told that they are working on it.

 

[Planck69]

For the resistances, if it's enough resistances to make up a sizable portion of the Powers & Abilities section, just use tabbers. I see no reason for a complete separation.

As for the second proposal, we already have limited hax. Just list it as, say, "Limited Sleep Manipulation (Description)". There's no need for this since the effect will have to be described anyway.

 

[Gohanblanco217]

As for the second proposal, we already have limited hax. Just list it as, say, "Limited Sleep Manipulation (Description)". There's no need for this since the effect will have to be described anyway.

My secend proposal was more about :

1)hax and abilities that were shown to not be effective against those with higher stats should also be treated as a limited hax.

2) making a page for limited hax and explain how it works would probably be better

 

[Antvasima]

For the resistances, if it's enough resistances to make up a sizable portion of the Powers & Abilities section, just use tabbers. I see no reason for a complete separation.

As for the second proposal, we already have limited hax. Just list it as, say, "Limited Sleep Manipulation (Description)". There's no need for this since the effect will have to be described anyway.

I agree with this.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Personally, I take resistance as ability like any other. Our current unofficial take of writing them at the end of the P&A block works well IMO. Or tabbers, if really necessary.
I'm all for noting down the weaknesses of hax abilities, but I don't think a limited hax page is necessary. Hax being limited by stats (honestly, can they even be called hax then?) should just be noted in the explanations of the ability and/or the weakness section, which profiles have for a reason.
In general people should rather start writing down more detailed explanations in the Notable A/T section, instead of cramming everything into P&A.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I would prefer to make use of tabbers to separate resistances from powers and abilities when necessary. Also, I agree with DT that weaknesses to hax sections more or less should be included to in the weaknesses section.

 

[KLOL506]

I would prefer to make use of tabbers to separate resistances from powers and abilities when necessary. Also, I agree with DT that weaknesses to hax sections more or less should be included to in the weaknesses section.

Agreed. Resistances should be put in tabbers whenever possible, I believe we already do this to a considerable extent.

 

[ibot4649]

I am neutral regarding the first proposal and agree with the second proposal because this is basically what I was arguing should happen on the verse equalization thread.

 

[Planck69]

My secend proposal was more about :

1)hax and abilities that were shown to not be effective against those with higher stats should also be treated as a limited hax.

2) making a page for limited hax and explain how it works would probably be better

1. I'm pretty sure they're already treated as such.

2. This is pointless for reasons many other people have already made clear.

 

[deonment]

Okay so question about the second part, can characters that can in verse overpower hax with ap cause the hax to not work against, like someone forcing thier way through fate hax with sheer force have the abilities that they can force thier way through be changed to limited hax or what?

 

[ibot4649]

If it is not written down anywhere people are not going to know to treat things as limited hax on profiles especially when supporters to want to make their characters as strong as possible. Imo this at least deserves a note on the resistance page

 

[Antvasima]

Personally, I take resistance as ability like any other. Our current unofficial take of writing them at the end of the P&A block works well IMO. Or tabbers, if really necessary.
I'm all for noting down the weaknesses of hax abilities, but I don't think a limited hax page is necessary. Hax being limited by stats (honestly, can they even be called hax then?) should just be noted in the explanations of the ability and/or the weakness section, which profiles have for a reason.
In general people should rather start writing down more detailed explanations in the Notable A/T section, instead of cramming everything into P&A.

To get something constructive done here, could we shift the focus of this discussion to if we should turn this principle more official, by giving suggestions how to separate powers and resistances in our character profile pages standard format page?

@Just_a_Random_Butler

Would you be willing to help out with this please?

 

[Gohanblanco217]

1. I'm pretty sure they're already treated as such.

2. This is pointless for reasons many other people have already made clear.

1) they really aren't

2) many people on this site don't know what limited hax is so making a page for it should be fine

 

[Planck69]

1) they really aren't

2) many people on this site don't know what limited hax is so making a page for it should be fine

1. How many characters actually overpower hax through pure AP and get treated as regular hax? Heck, how many characters are even like this?

2. A note is debatable let alone a page. We're not a gaggle of 6 year old children for this to be necessary.

 

[Gohanblanco217]

1. How many characters actually overpower hax through pure AP and get treated as regular hax?

Dragon Ball and Bleach and probably more

Heck, how many characters are even like this?

There are too many

2. A note is debatable let alone a page. We're not a gaggle of 6 year old children for this to be necessary.

I just feel that a page is necessary to avoid any kind of confusion

 

[Antoniofer]

1) I believe few pages already do this when using tabbers, although only when the amount of resistance is high; otherwise, they just place the resistances at the end of p&a.

2) If certain powers have weakness or limitations (I consider both of these terms different) then one write it in bold, or expand it in the Notable Techniques section.

 

[KLOL506]

To get something constructive done here, could we shift the focus of this discussion to if we should turn this principle more official, by giving suggestions how to separate powers and resistances in our character profile pages standard format page?

I mean, we already do this to an extent using tabbers for Powers and Resistances assuming the characters have a lot of resistances, it makes things look cleaner in the long run.

And what Anton said. If said hax have weaknesses or limitations it's noted down in detail in both the Weaknesses section and the Powers and Techniques section.

 

[Antvasima]

Yes, but an official instruction for how to do this seems useful to spread the information in our community.

 

[SamanPatou]

Making a resistance tabber for all characters isn't practicable, as many profiles have tabbers placed in a specific way depending on time periods, transformations, equipment and so on, with some of them even using sub-tabbers, preventing them from being used for that reason.

Meddling with these profiles by forcing a tabber would be a mistake.

As many others said, there's the unofficial rule of placing resistances at the end of the P&A section, we could just make it official and solve the problem.

Tabber should be used when a character has a really long list of resistances, by such profiles already do that, at least some notable ones. That could also be added as an instruction.


About haxes limited by raw power, I believe it can be written somewhere within the profile, next to the description of said power or in the weaknesses section (which is what I do), as it is there even for this reason.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Disagree on the first option. Tabbers and Sub-Tabbers are a thing and cab be used to seperate Resistances from abilities if necessary

As for the second one, the limitations of haxes that are limited by AP, (Like that they have been shown to fail against stronger opponents, for example if someone can brute force his/her way out of a hax just by simply being more powerful), should be listed in the Weakness section in the profile, for example:

Weaknesses: [Insert hax here] was shown to fail against enemies stronger than the user, meaning it won't work against characters with higher statistic than [Insert hax user's name]

 

[Antoniofer]

Although to be fair, wherever a power is weak due being unable to affect a strong character, or that the strong character is resistent (and that its resistance scale with its power) is relative; and don't think DB is the only verse that does this, several rpg are based in the same principle, the more powerful you are, the more chances it have to resist stuff.

 

[Antvasima]

Making a resistance tabber for all characters isn't practicable, as many profiles have tabbers placed in a specific way depending on time periods, transformations, equipment and so on, with some of them even using sub-tabbers, preventing them from being used for that reason.

Meddling with these profiles by forcing a tabber would be a mistake.

As many others said, there's the unofficial rule of placing resistances at the end of the P&A section, we could just make it official and solve the problem.

Tabber should be used when a character has a really long list of resistances, by such profiles already do that, at least some notable ones. That could also be added as an instruction.

I agree with this.

So via which page should we make the rule official, and is somebody willing to write a draft for it?

 

[Bobsican]

The Editing Rules for sure, and I lack the time to make a draft on my part right now, so I won't be able to help on that right now.