[SEMIFINALS M1] 1st Generals of Grove Tournament - Kaint vs. Salivas C. Otter (4-0-0)

[ExSENNA]

Welcome to the First Match of the Semifinals of the 1st Generals of Grove Tournament! (Bracket) (Event Leaderboard)

On the blue corner, we have Kaint, submitted by @LeoEpicGamer8910!
On the red corner, we have Salivas C. Otter, submitted by @CCMBROTTERFN!
Duel 13, let's go!

Kaint is 750 Tons. Salivas is 65 Tons. Kaint has a 11.5x AP Advantage.
Kaint has Class 50, Salivas has Class T LS. Salivas has the LS Advantage.

Supreme Tournament Kaint is used.
Start of Journey Arc Salivas is used.
Anything above 8-A is restricted.
Speed is equalized.
Starting distance is 7 meters.

Kaint:4
Salivas:
Incon:

 

[MintyBoi1]

So Kaint can one shot and has great skill with his weapons. Salivas has some abilities that could make him last longer like mid regeneration and his jumping, but is there anything he can do to really win? Landing all 8 orbs on Kaint will be hard with his skill, fear aura, and forcefields. Also if they can be destroyed, that really messes up the chances.

 

[CCMBROTTERFN]

has great skill with his weapons. Landing all 8 orbs on Kaint will be hard with his skill.

So skill is not a problem. Kaint is really good in combat, don’t get me wrong, but everything he is Salivas is on a much higher scale. Salivas was raised from birth in every form of combat he uses, from 8 different styles of martial arts to the magic styles he uses. By the time he was 10 he had defeated trained generals and assassins in only hand to hand. At 14 he was skilled enough to take on the gods and come out with their respect. He didn’t win due to the huge stat gap, but it was insane. When he was 16 he took out a stronger version of him due to just simply being smart enough to find a way to win. Nowadays, he trains with Otto, Avin, Mute Kid and more, all at once. He consistently beats them even though Otto is a better strategist than the rest of the cast combined. And Salivas manages to completely wipe the floor with him while still in combat with 2 to 4 other people. I’m sorry but it just isn’t close. Salivas is just way smarter.

but is there anything he can do to really win? Landing all 8 orbs on Kaint will be hard with his skill and forcefields. Also if they can be destroyed, that really messes up the chances.

This is the tricky part. As I put up earlier, Salivas is absurdly skilled, but yes, the orbs can be destroyed, specifically only by extreme temperature. When it comes down to it, it really just depends on how many force fields can be put up and how long they are going through combat. Since The orbs can split into many raindrop sized pieces and still all be active, as well and recombine, it allows for a lot of tricky moves. Of course, it has to be 8 full orbs to erase, but other than that, according to the series, the split orbs are just as strong as a full one. Plus, it makes it a lot harder to block them.

Landing all 8 orbs on Kaint will be hard with his fear aura

And finally this. Yeah… according to the page this move invokes the fear of death, meaning that they think they might die just by standing there but… why would that matter? As it stands, a scared Salivas is a far worse person to fight than one who isn’t, as all this means is that he gets serious. A scared salivas is the one that is actively trying to kill the source of his fear no matter the cost. That’s not better. It’s just the same stuff, except now he won’t taunt them and he’ll be doing stuff like when he grabbed Retto with his arm before the flesh came back.

 

[CCMBROTTERFN]

Also, Salivas Wincon, his Lifting Strength. If he ever grabs him once… it’s game over. Like, stuff like, I don’t know… crushing skulls? That’s all LS. And with the gap? One single bit of pressure from Salivas and anywhere he has grabbed is now tissue paper. Highly unlikely? Yes. Fun? Also yes.

 

[MintyBoi1]

So skill is not a problem. Kaint is really good in combat, don’t get me wrong, but everything he is Salivas is on a much higher scale. Salivas was raised from birth in every form of combat he uses, from 8 different styles of martial arts to the magic styles he uses. By the time he was 10 he had defeated trained generals and assassins in only hand to hand. At 14 he was skilled enough to take on the gods and come out with their respect. He didn’t win due to the huge stat gap, but it was insane. When he was 16 he took out a stronger version of him due to just simply being smart enough to find a way to win. Nowadays, he trains with Otto, Avin, Mute Kid and more, all at once. He consistently beats them even though Otto is a better strategist than the rest of the cast combined. And Salivas manages to completely wipe the floor with him while still in combat with 2 to 4 other people. I’m sorry but it just isn’t close. Salivas is just way smarter.

This is the tricky part. As I put up earlier, Salivas is absurdly skilled, but yes, the orbs can be destroyed, specifically only by extreme temperature. When it comes down to it, it really just depends on how many force fields can be put up and how long they are going through combat. Since The orbs can split into many raindrop sized pieces and still all be active, as well and recombine, it allows for a lot of tricky moves. Of course, it has to be 8 full orbs to erase, but other than that, according to the series, the split orbs are just as strong as a full one. Plus, it makes it a lot harder to block them.

And finally this. Yeah… according to the page this move invokes the fear of death, meaning that they think they might die just by standing there but… why would that matter? As it stands, a scared Salivas is a far worse person to fight than one who isn’t, as all this means is that he gets serious. A scared salivas is the one that is actively trying to kill the source of his fear no matter the cost. That’s not better. It’s just the same stuff, except now he won’t taunt them and he’ll be doing stuff like when he grabbed Retto with his arm before the flesh came back.

On martial arts, Kaint easily took down Cinner before training him which is where his Class 50 comes from who is a master of judo, taekwondo, karate, and his own specific style combining those with his acrobatics and staff fighting skill. And he is considered one of the top most skilled people in his clan full of people with decades of experience of assasination using martial arts and weaponry as well as a master of Ki which takes high dedication. He was even more skilled with it than Cinner who at this point had 10 years of combat training and could take on 70 people before developing his later aura and forcefields. Kaint of course, isn’t as skilled as he would be at that part of the story, but taking on and beating Cinner is still a great feat. Salivas has around 18 years of experience going off what you said, but Kaint shouldn’t be too far behind that (haven’t decided when he started training but definitely within his childhood) and he should have more weapon skill. Also how skilled were these gods, and how does outsmarting himself contribute to skill? They say to know yourself after all. And honestly I’m not sure where Supergenius comes from, Salivas seems way closer to normal Genius range going off his feats. No hyper advanced technology and certainly not the reality warping capabilities needed for Supergenius.

What do you mean only by extreme temperatures, like they can tank any AP? Is there any showing for that? Also Salivas has no resistance to electricity or paralysis, so even if he could bombard Kaint, he’ll have to last long enough to get into his complex maneuvers. You’ve admitted he underestimates opponents which will damper his chances. And Kaint’s forcefield surrounds the whole body and really just requires ample time to focus on its creation plus stamina which he has plenty of. Granted he doesn’t spam them, but he’s much more keen on using them than say Cinner with his speed first mentality.

So a deathly afraid Salivas will have enough coordination with his attacks to precisely aim all 8 orbs? Seems like he’ll just be more reckless instead of arrogant since he will go for quick things like grabs. Kaint was able to take down Cinner so easily on the second encounter because he was so eager to rush in and try pinning him down.

Also, Salivas Wincon, his Lifting Strength. If he ever grabs him once… it’s game over. Like, stuff like, I don’t know… crushing skulls? That’s all LS. And with the gap? One single bit of pressure from Salivas and anywhere he has grabbed is now tissue paper. Highly unlikely? Yes. Fun? Also yes.

About that, if Kaint doesn’t have both chakrams in his hands when or if he’s grabbed, he can pull them back and make them careen into Salivas’ skull. Sure, it may not kill him, but it’ll sure be enough distraction to cut his arms off and get out to split him into pieces with the 11x AP gap and cutting weapons. Also force fields, but like you said, it’s about fun.

 

[ExSENNA]

Also, Salivas Wincon, his Lifting Strength. If he ever grabs him once… it’s game over. Like, stuff like, I don’t know… crushing skulls? That’s all LS. And with the gap? One single bit of pressure from Salivas and anywhere he has grabbed is now tissue paper. Highly unlikely? Yes. Fun? Also yes.

You can't crush someone with LS if your AP is much lower

You can restrain though

 

[CCMBROTTERFN]

On martial arts, Kaint easily took down Cinner before training him which is where his Class 50 comes from who is a master of judo, taekwondo, karate, and his own specific style combining those with his acrobatics and staff fighting skill. And he is considered one of the top most skilled people in his clan full of people with decades of experience of assasination using martial arts and weaponry as well as a master of Ki which takes high dedication. He was even more skilled with it than Cinner who at this point had 10 years of combat training and could take on 70 people before developing his later aura and forcefields. Kaint of course, isn’t as skilled as he would be at that part of the story, but taking on and beating Cinner is still a great feat. Salivas has around 18 years of experience going off what you said, but Kaint shouldn’t be too far behind that (haven’t decided when he started training but definitely within his childhood) and he should have more weapon skill. Also how skilled were these gods, and how does outsmarting himself contribute to skill? They say to know yourself after all. And honestly I’m not sure where Supergenius comes from, Salivas seems way closer to normal Genius range going off his feats. No hyper advanced technology and certainly not the reality warping capabilities needed for Supergenius.

Okay, so the Supergenius part comes from his general intelligence feats such as remembering the locations of 25.5 millions blades of grass perfectly to the point where he could repair the entire field he just broke back to its exact location, creating the GLITCH AI, which held the data of every single universe in the foundation, which at the time was over 8 quadrillion. If he is actually just that skilled, then yeah, it’s a lot more even skill wise, but to answer how skilled we’re the gods? Well, the Gatekeeper has been alive for over a googol of years, even if only 1% of that was spent training, that’s still more than a few millions of years, and Salivas still outskills them.

What do you mean only by extreme temperatures, like they can tank any AP?

Within the story, they’ve shown to be able to take hits from every character except Otto, who is weaker than other cast members, but his temperature manipulation manages to take them out. So any AP below City Level.

Is there any showing for that? Also Salivas has no resistance to electricity or paralysis, so even if he could bombard Kaint, he’ll have to last long enough to get into his complex maneuvers. You’ve admitted he underestimates opponents which will damper his chances. And Kaint’s forcefield surrounds the whole body and really just requires ample time to focus on its creation plus stamina which he has plenty of. Granted he doesn’t spam them, but he’s much more keen on using them than say Cinner with his speed first mentality.

This I’m fine with. It’s just true.

So a deathly afraid Salivas will have enough coordination with his attacks to precisely aim all 8 orbs? Seems like he’ll just be more reckless instead of arrogant since he will go for quick things like grabs. Kaint was able to take down Cinner so easily on the second encounter because he was so eager to rush in and try pinning him down.

To be fair, when he grabbed Retto, he was only 3 feet away, and he was bragging. And to answer, yes. When Salivas was about to die near the end of the series, he was fully coordinated enough to still manage to find an opening to transfer his soul and the souls he had absorbed dozens of feet across a battlefield without it getting hit. And souls are much harder for him to control than the orbs, seeing as he only had less than year training with them. Of course, this was further in the series than the one we are using, but it’s a start.

 

[CCMBROTTERFN]

You can't crush someone with LS if your AP is much lower

Really? Okay then, didn’t know that. Thanks.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

You can't crush someone with LS if your AP is much lower

I do believe you can tear them apart tho

Of course most of the time that's how itll play out, like it's why choking, crushing, etc with higher LS wouldnt work. The instant they take a punch, a punch would interact with shearing and compressive mechanics of the body. You get hit by a 7-C punch? Wow cool you neg Class G, maybe low T.

But ya see, tensile isnt so simple, that's ripping, pulling, tearing, a punch wouldnt interact with that, and as we know, things can differ in strength properties. Of course the instant they have any sort of dura showing that applies to that, it falls flat but...

 

[ExSENNA]

I do believe you can tear them apart tho

Nope. You can't. Crushing and tearing skill requires AP. If the person you're trying to tear apart is 11x more durable than your AP you are not tearing them apart. You can at best hold them down, restrain, or ragdoll them.

Salivas can't damage Kaint with LS

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Nope. You can't. Crushing and tearing skill requires AP. If the person you're trying to tear apart is 11x more durable than your AP you are not tearing them apart. You can at best hold them down, restrain, or ragdoll them.

Nah, there's even some irl materials that have a gap in the thousands between compressive/shear and tensile.

It's technically not like written in the rules at the moment, but that's how it'd work realistically.

 

[MintyBoi1]

I think in the time it’d take Salivas to pin and tear Kaint, the chakrams would come into play to get him to back off.

 

[MintyBoi1]

Okay, so the Supergenius part comes from his general intelligence feats such as remembering the locations of 25.5 millions blades of grass perfectly to the point where he could repair the entire field he just broke back to its exact location, creating the GLITCH AI, which held the data of every single universe in the foundation, which at the time was over 8 quadrillion. If he is actually just that skilled, then yeah, it’s a lot more even skill wise, but to answer how skilled we’re the gods? Well, the Gatekeeper has been alive for over a googol of years, even if only 1% of that was spent training, that’s still more than a few millions of years, and Salivas still outskills them.

Within the story, they’ve shown to be able to take hits from every character except Otto, who is weaker than other cast members, but his temperature manipulation manages to take them out. So any AP below City Level.

This I’m fine with. It’s just true.

To be fair, when he grabbed Retto, he was only 3 feet away, and he was bragging. And to answer, yes. When Salivas was about to die near the end of the series, he was fully coordinated enough to still manage to find an opening to transfer his soul and the souls he had absorbed dozens of feet across a battlefield without it getting hit. And souls are much harder for him to control than the orbs, seeing as he only had less than year training with them. Of course, this was further in the series than the one we are using, but it’s a start.

The grass sounds more like Photographic Memory, but the AI could be good justification for Extraordinary Genius. Not too sure on Supergenius since the standards are very high and there’s still no reality warping through intelligence. And the gods still seem iffy, I think both are relative skill wise like you said. But the orbs seem more choreographed than Electrical Arc which could paralyze Salivas long enough to grant Kaint the win.

Then Kaint can’t just break them. Still, he has surface running and should at least be able to push them back with the huge AP gap.

So fear aura will be less of a hindrance than thought, but like you said this Salivas is less skilled so it’s less likely he’ll be able to precisely hit Kaint who’s a moving target.

I’m leaning Kaint since he really just needs a good hit to bypass mid regeneration and is quite relative in skill plus has paralysis which won’t be seen coming.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Kaint does appear to be a bit lacking in terms of range, which is a big problem considering the fact that Salivas has nigh-perfect teleportation which he uses in combat.

Supposedly it’s an instant movement to any location he has ever seen. Like fast travel in a video game but actually canon. And I do mean ever seen. He has teleported in areas he himself has stated to have never been solely because he could see there. And it doesn’t seem to have a cool down. And if it is, it’s only really small.

 

[MintyBoi1]

Kaint is a bit lacking in terms of range, which is a big problem considering the fact that Salivas has nigh-perfect teleportation which he uses in combat.

Well there’s the point of his surface scaling on buildings combined with being able to jump tens of feet and control his rate of fall which helped greatly against Jeffrey. It’s not like Salivas will be constantly be in the air like he was, so that’s another point.

 

[CCMBROTTERFN]

Kaint does appear to be a bit lacking in terms of range, which is a big problem considering the fact that Salivas has nigh-perfect teleportation which he uses in combat.

The grass sounds more like Photographic Memory, but the AI could be good justification for Extraordinary Genius. Not too sure on Supergenius since the standards are very high and there’s still no reality warping through intelligence. And the gods still seem iffy, I think both are relative skill wise like you said. But the orbs seem more choreographed than Electrical Arc which could paralyze Salivas long enough to grant Kaint the win.

Then Kaint can’t just break them. Still, he has surface running and should at least be able to push them back with the huge AP gap.

So fear aura will be less of a hindrance than thought, but like you said this Salivas is less skilled so it’s less likely he’ll be able to precisely hit Kaint who’s a moving target.

I’m leaning Kaint since he really just needs a good hit to bypass mid regeneration and is quite relative in skill plus has paralysis which won’t be seen coming.

Yeah, when it comes down to it, they are going to have very hard times taking the other down.
Skill is pretty close and Salivas should be smarter outside of just skill.
Both have insane abilities that counter the other like Salivas having Teleportation and Precognition to dodge attacks and existence erasure to deal with the AP gap and he also can restrain him, though that’s not ideal for him.
Kaint on the other hand is much stronger, more skilled, and has a lot of HAX that could slow Salivas down enough for him to kill him.

I honestly don’t know who to vote.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Well there’s the point of his surface scaling on buildings combined with being able to jump tens of feet and control his rate of fall which helped greatly against Jeffrey. It’s not like Salivas will be constantly be in the air like he was, so that’s another point.

That's still a significant amount of effort Kaint has to put to reach where Salivas is, when all Salivas has to do to regain that distance is like, think.

 

[MintyBoi1]

Yeah, when it comes down to it, they are going to have very hard times taking the other down.
Skill is pretty close and Salivas should be smarter outside of just skill.
Both have insane abilities that counter the other like Salivas having Teleportation and Precognition to dodge attacks and existence erasure to deal with the AP gap and he also can restrain him, though that’s not ideal for him.
Kaint on the other hand is much stronger, more skilled, and has a lot of HAX that could slow Salivas down enough for him to kill him.

I honestly don’t know who to vote.

I can’t argue with the intelligence even if I do think Salivas’ grade should be lower. Restraining still seems unlikely for points mentioned above.

That's still a significant amount of effort Kaint has to put to reach where Salivas is, when all Salivas has to do to regain that distance is like, think.

I suppose, but he’s constantly infiltrating places using that acrobatics and surface scaling so it’s decently routine. And Salivas can’t fly, just jump high. And while he can jump thousands of meters, his attacks only can reach hundreds. Also I think Kaint’s stealth would have to come into play once his opponent is avoiding him like that. Slipping into a nearby building and waiting out Salivas until he comes back down would be ideal.

 

[CCMBROTTERFN]

I can’t argue with the intelligence even if I do think Salivas’ grade should be lower. Restraining still seems unlikely for points mentioned above.

That’s why I said it’s not ideal.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Slipping into a nearby building and waiting out Salivas until he comes back down would be ideal.

I assume there won't be many buildings standing after Salivas' 8-B bombardment of divided orbs that is "akin to rain"

 

[CCMBROTTERFN]

I assume there won't be many buildings standing after Salivas' 8-B bombardment of divided orbs that is "akin to rain"

There’s a difference between destructive capabilities and power. It can harm 8-B characters, but it’s not going to literally destroy everything. Yes, it will still do major damage and realistically, yeah it would just pulverize everything. But this is a fictional character. Y’know, environmental destruction vs AP type stuff.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

I guess. There's also the precog to consider when it comes to stealth attacks tho

 

[MintyBoi1]

I guess. There's also the precog to consider when it comes to stealth attacks tho

Precog seems minor, it’s put as limited and could be subbed for enhanced senses/extrasensory perception without further explanation.

I’m just gonna vote Kaint, he holds too many advantages to lose the majority of the time imo.

 

[Javenplayz253]

Precog seems minor, it’s put as limited and could be subbed for enhanced senses/extrasensory perception without further explanation.

I’m just gonna vote Kaint, he holds too many advantages to lose the majority of the time imo.

Yeah i agree on that kaint fra

 

[CCMBROTTERFN]

Precog seems minor, it’s put as limited and could be subbed for enhanced senses/extrasensory perception without further explanation.

I’m just gonna vote Kaint, he holds too many advantages to lose the majority of the time imo.

When it comes down to it, his precognition is pretty minor, unless he actively is attempting to see the future, he mostly will just have a pressure on his body where the attack is coming from and a vision if they are within a close proximity of him. If he tries he has a clear vision of the attack though. Fair points anyways.

 

[VeneficaAuthor]

Kaint FRA

 

[CCMBROTTERFN]

Kaint FRA.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

My 10 bucks...

 

[CCMBROTTERFN]

Salavis’s page has added his results!

 

[CCMBROTTERFN]

This was an old matchups needs one more vote. Anyone up to vote to finish it? I just want it done. https://vsbattles.com/threads/saliv...atekeepers-vs-the-last-sorcerer-2-0-0.173629/