Sans durability issue

[Buttersamuri]

So imma say it. I don't think Sans should have Small Building durability. The reason says he is cause (Should be at least somewhat comparable to zero DETERMINATION Frisk, who could tank an oven overloading and emitting this much force without any damage whatsoever.)

But the whole thing on sans is he is the absolute weakest of them. There is no justifications for Sans scaling that I see. He wasn't in that explosion, people close to his level wasn't in that explosion like Monster Kid. Remember that a 0 determination Frisk can tank damage from people like a Undyne and Papyrus who are several several times stronger. Why would Sans be even remotely comparable to zero determination frisk when this frisk can clearly fight and tank damage from characters said to be A Lot stronger and A Lot tougher? Sans has no feats to back it up, is shown and said to be the weakest by a long shot, and frisks feats support them being on par with people said to be Much superior to Sans himself. One bigger piece of evidence I say supports it is Sans is literally said to be the weakest monster. However, there are monsters you can one shot near the start of the game. If Start game Frisk can one shot these monsters and Sans is below them. He would also get one shot by frisk at the very start. The weaker form of frisk. And if he gets one shot. He just shouldn't scale. And without some other supporting feat or something at least. He shouldn't have Small Building durability. Stat scaling certainly doesn't work. Those stats are inconsistent AF. And shouldn't be used to make sans comparable when he clearly is below creatures who aren't. So, I think this needs to be taken off his durability. He shouldn't have Small Building durability. It likely should just be put as Unknown.

 

[Buttersamuri]

Bump

 

[Buttersamuri]

Bump

 

[Eficiente]

There is no "whole thing about Sans", he's the weakest monster due to having the weakest stats, nothing says that anything that touches him will just kill him or something. His 1 in defense scales to other monsters such as Whimsun and Moldsmal, who have 0 in defense.

>"Why would Sans be even remotely comparable to zero determination frisk when this frisk can clearly fight and tank damage from characters said to be A Lot stronger and A Lot tougher?"

That wouldn't be zero determination Frisk tho. Sans doesn't scale to "Frisk, who fought foes stronger than Sans", he scale to "Frisk, who outside of a fight and while trying to make spaghetti took some explosion".

 

[Buttersamuri]

Whimsun and Moldsmal Due in one hit to tho. Very very start of the game frisk still one shot them.

And sans still doesn't have any reason to scale. There is no justification for it. He shouldn't scale off an assumption that has no justification behind it, plus the fact he is supposed to be basically glass durability.

 

[Eficiente]

Moldsmal has an attack value of 6, which scales to his durability, which is pretty much his defense, which Sans has a higher value on.

Edit: Idk about Whimsun at the time, he has no profile here and I already closed the stuff on the Undertale wiki.

 

[Buttersamuri]

That's inconsistent though with what the stats say. That contridicts itself and can't be used a proof to justify the durability scale. Going to the fight. (Just did) the Moldsmal actually doesn't die in one hit, yet the Whimsun does. Yet they have the same stats durability wise. It contridicts itself there.

Sans is at one health. Any monster can provide that amount of force. Even the low tiers. He isn't gaugeable. Any form of scaling to low tier is too contridicting in itself. Especially since his health is so low, that any monster can provide he force to kill him

 

[Eficiente]

It's not inconsistent, defense is not the same as durability, but they are comparable, one can have any value in defense and they can still have any durability they may deserve. Moldsmal and Whimsun have different HP, the former having more.

Sans having one HP is one thing, but "Any monster can provide that amount of force" is not an argument, any monster can provide Small Building levels of force, where is the contradiction?

 

[Buttersamuri]

For one. Yes that is an argument. If sans has one health, and literally any monster can provide an attack that takes away more than one health, that means sans gets one shot by everyone. It means he can't survive small building attacks. No matyet who attacks

And if Defense and HP are separate. That means that sans doesn't scale. Cause his HP is 1. That's why everyone can one shot him. And that's why he can't scale. He is several times weaker than everyone. Even low tiers.

 

[Eficiente]

That's the point, he would get one-shotted by everyone in his verse, with everyone being Small Building level, thus never getting one-shotted by anything lower than that.

HP is not something shown in game, only ATK and DEF.

 

[Buttersamuri]

If he gets one shot by everyone. Then he can't scale. His durability should be Unknown as not having any feats that could support a quantifiable level. We can't assume people lower than that can't one shot him. Because we don't know. He is so much weaker than everyone.

 

[Eficiente]

Well, at this point I wouldn't really be saying anything new, so let's wait for others to opinate.

 

[Therefir]

>But the whole thing on sans is about anyone can one shot him.

No, that's just your headcanon, the real point is that Sans is the weakest monster, it has never been stated that he can be one-shotted by everyone.

Also, a Frisk with 0 stats in defense and no Determination can withstand the overheated blast, so even Sans is able to scale from them.

 

[Buttersamuri]

It isn't headcanon. the damage that everyone outputs can easily one shot Sans durability. Even the low tiers.

And how? Explain how Sans, who has the weakest durability, and is the weakest monster, and has no actual interaction with any character that would give him scaling, would let him scale?

 

[Therefir]

You're confusing HP with defense, Frisk at level 1 has 0 in defense, but their HP is 20, we have no idea how much HP Sans has, but his defense is 1, and therefore is superior to a level 1 Frisk with zero Determination.

 

[Buttersamuri]

Sans can't be scaled to Frisk

Frisk stats work too differently. Where a monster with an attack of 5 does 1 damage to frisk.

Frisk at 0 can do 20 damage to them. Frisk had 20 health but is as tough as monsters who can tank 20 damage.

Frisk is built to work differently stats wise and thus can't be scaled in that mechanic. It isn't a reliable source to do so.

 

[Therefir]

All stats in this game are inconsistent with the damage shown, not just Frisk's, the stats are there to show who is stronger.

A Frisk with no Determination can barely deal 1 point of damage to Undyne without armor, this is the Frisk that withstood the overhead blast, and the one that Sans should be able to scale.

 

[Buttersamuri]

No. This isn't just inconsistent. This is a straight up different mechanic.

Frisks mechanics work completely differently from monster mechanics. The damage shown, the defense and attack shown, the health they have. All very different

Monsters can take even at their weakest ends over 20 health. And they can take damage over 20 with every attack

Frisks health is 20 health at most in their weakest. But they take one damage with attacks.

Frisk can deal over 20 damage per attack, a monster deals one.

The mechanics are clearly different, and can't be scaled. At all.

And wrong. Frisk doesn't deal only one damage cause that's all they can do. They don't Want to hurt Undyne. Undyne even says that herself. If you chose to fight Undyne earlier and not have killed anything, it backs up my point even more. Telling a story that they can do several damage.

So no. Sans shouldn't scale

 

[Therefir]

Now it results that Frisk's stats means a completely different thing to the rest of the game rather than simply meaning that is inconsistent, with yout reasoning no monster should scale from each other because their stats and damage shown is inconsistent too.

For example, the amount of damage that Toriel can take is about 440, while for Papyrus is 680, does this mean that Papyrus is superior to Toriel? Not at all, it just means that the stats in this game are very inconsistent, even among the monsters themselves, saying that Frisk's stats are completely different from the rest of the game is something that you just invented.

>Frisk doesn't deal only one damage cause that's all they can do. They don't Want to hurt Undyne.

That's what I'm talking about, a Frisk without Determination to hurt someone is even weaker than Sans himself, their statistics clearly prove it, Frisk can't even smash a tomato normally.

 

[Buttersamuri]

No. It's a valid point. Frisk has a different mechanic from the rest of the monsters and shouldn't be scaled by using their stat mechanics. It works differently, numbers are different, values are different, it's all VERY different. And yes, monster stats are inconsistent. But Frisks aren't only inconsistent, but down right completely different mechanics. Again. Different values. They shouldn't be used to scale.

Wrong. There's a Huge difference between frisk being that weak And frisk not wanting to hurt Undyne

Frisk literally Fake attacks Undyne. As in Fake. Not full force. Even says so


Completely faking that. 0 determination frisk isn't that weak, as it was a fake punch. Not 0 determination is that weak. So not a reliable means. All we know is when frisk Fake attack did 1 damage. Nothing else.

 

[Jackythejack]

Couldn't we also like, make the argument that Sans got hit with a child full of love, who could overpower a lot of the monsters in the underground already? He's fighting a Frisk who is much stronger due to the amount of LV right?

I feel like that has something to do with it as well. It was a stronger Frisk that Sans was fighting than the one we scale him too.

 

[Therefir]

>Frisk's stats have a completely different mechanics because I say so.

Where are the proofs? Your only proof was that Frisk's stats are inconsistent, and now that I've shown you that the monster's stats are also inconsistent, Frisk's stats still have different mechanics? And you keep repeating that the numbers and values are different, but this is the same for all monsters, so I don't know how that proves that Frisk's stats are different from the monsters.

>Frisk's Fake Attack

You're wrong, I'm pretty sure you can actually fight Undyne and still deal just one point of damage.

 

[Buttersamuri]

The proof is the values quite literally work differently. Where frisk deals over 20 damage and up to hundreds to monsters. And when tanking hits from people as strong or stronger, only takes one damage. The values are very different, the mechanics are different, so it's too different. The mechanics work differently from the monsters: the monsters at least had a general area in health, attack power, and defense and all that. But frisks differs in large amounts. Plus as you said, the monster mechanics are inconsistent. They aren't really a viable way to scale characters. At least the other characters can fight frisk and tank hits. Sans can't tank a hit.

On top of that. This frisk could easily just be stronger. You don't fight those Fodder enemies after the explosion. Meaning the Monsters don't even fight frisk after tanking it. They only did it before hand. Making the scaling even more skeptical.


No I'm not. That is the only thing that pops up. When you are at Undynes date. You literally can only fake attack. You say you are Pretty sure. But you can't claim I'm wrong when you lack the evidence. I have at least shown the scene itself where frisk "hits Undyne". At it clearly says Fake hit.

 

[Buttersamuri]

Couldn't we also like, make the argument that Sans got hit with a child full of love, who could overpower a lot of the monsters in the underground already? He's fighting a Frisk who is much stronger due to the amount of LV right?

I feel like that has something to do with it as well. It was a stronger Frisk that Sans was fighting than the one we scale him too.

Sans died in one hit tho. And by quite a long shot. And his attacks aren't every physical. It's all magic based. And we can't assume it has the sam strain on his body like physical attacks would without some sort of evidence to support it

 

[Jackythejack]

He died in one hit because of the sheer amount of LV and killing intent of Frisk though yes? Frisk would still do more damage because of his LV at this point. Stronger doesn't exactly mean physically in this case.

 

[Therefir]

@Buttersamuri As I said before, those inconsistencies can also be applied to monsters, so it's not a completely different mechanic, the game is just that inconsistent, although you're kind of right about that the stats are too inconsistent to use them as a viable way of scaling, but I think we should ignore the damage shown and concentrate only on the stats, or we would end up with a lot of characters unable to scale from each other.

>You literally can only fake attack.

You can fight and actually attack her too.

 

[Buttersamuri]

He died because he got hit by someone who is Immensely stronger than his durability could handle. Frisk was at such a high level of power at that point. Of course it's gonna one shot the guy who is said to be the weakest enemy. His thing was speed. You couldn't hit him. But when you did, he died. Plain and simple. Nothing implied he could tank a slightly weaker frisk. Or start game frisk. He never interacted combat wise with anyone else but Frisk at the end of the game who can kill him in a single shot. Meaning he has no real reason to scale. Plus the several other issues.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

It seems there's general issues with taking the battle stats from Undertale at face value, to be honest.

 

[Therefir]

@Buttersamuri Genocide Frisk can one-shot practically everyone except Undyne the Undying, so that's not really a point against Sans's durability.

 

[Buttersamuri]

But they are different mechanics. When values hold such different numbers, they can't be used to scale onto other people who work with much different values. A hit from a small building level from frisk mechanic did only one damage

But one from a monster can do over 20 and into the hundreds of damage

That's highly different. And not in the way a two monsters are. It's a different way in values all together.

And we still shouldn't be giving unfair scaling. We can't even be sure that those Fodder enemies scale. The feat happens way later on. And those Fodder never fight frisk then.

And I won't lie. I hadn't know about that. I'm guess it's a different platform than the one I'm familiar with (like switch or something). But for one, no matter what stat you are at, even using other stuff to power yourself up, you always do one damage. Because frisk has no intent to hurt Undyne: it's the same reason a fake attack doesn't hurt. They didn't muster up the strenght to hurt Undyne cause they didn't want to.

It's just too skeptical for the low tiers to scale to a feat that they don't even fight frisk after doing, and don't have any other supporting feats.

 

[Buttersamuri]

@Buttersamuri Genocide Frisk can one-shot practically everyone except Undyne the Undying, so that's not really a point against Sans's durability.

Well yea. I was jut answering Jacky that it wasn't a viable thing to give sans scaling to. That frisk/Chara did basically one shot everyone at that point. So it makes sense Sans was one shot

 

[Buttersamuri]

Gonna bump this. Still think Sans Durability should be At least downgraded to Wall for being the weakest out of everyone. Or unknown since he has no quantifiable durability feats. Stat scaling isn't exactly the best thing to use due to high inconsistency. And frisks mechanics work entirely different to monsters and by no means should be used to scale. Especially since Frisk at any point in the game can one shot sans.

Also, a good reason he shouldn't is. Sans is the weakest monster. It's even said so specifically. And the weaker monsters can be one shot by frisk at the very start of the game. Sans is canonically under those things. So If Sans is in canon Under creatures who you could one shot at any given point in the game. At your absolute weakest. Then scaling something weaker than them to the main character without any supporting feats. Ehhh. That's a no for me.

 

[Psychomaster35]

Im sure that he at least slightly downscales to Froggit in durability?

 

[Buttersamuri]

Nope. He's the weaker of monsters. There are weaker creatures than Froggit. The fly one specifically Frisk can one shot even at the very start of the game. Which Sans is canonically below them as well. Meaning sans can be one shot at any point in the game. So scaling him doesn't make sense at all.

 

[Elizhaa]

Honestly, I think Therefir's points make sense. I have no problem with scaling Sans's durability to due having higher defense stats then Frisk at his earlii key.

Also, HP is a Game Mechanics which is not really use for durability.

 

[GojiBoyForever]

Disagree with OP.

 

[Buttersamuri]

Why would we scale them though? We know stat scaling isn't exactly safe to do. And as I brought up. Frisk as An Entirely Differnt Stat type. Their stats work FAR Differently than monster stats. Their attack, their defense, Ect. Their defense stat being lower than Sans doesn't mean Sans scales cause it's Both Stat scaling (which has been admitted to be inconsistent), And An Entirely different mechanic than the monster stats. It doesn't even work that way either.

And if at Minute 1 of the game you can one shot him. Literally once start the game you are capable of killing him in one shot. Then why are we scaling him? There are Monsters Above Sans that Frisk one shots. Which pokes yet another hole in the stat scaling working here. Using Feats is far better than using stat scaling cause feats are just more reliable

With feats. Monster Above Sans have been one shot by frisk even at their weakest point at the very start of the game. When their stats were at their lowest. So Sans would be lower than the ones getting one shot cause he is the weakest. And isn't one of the things about Undertale is Humans are frankly just above monsters. So a Human child who from minute one could one shot some of the monsters he above the literal weakest monster. I mean if frisk one shots Whimsalot. Here's a chart

Frisk >>> Whimsalot > Whimsun > Sans

So why would Sans even have the right to scale. He is below at least two monsters frisk at any point of the game can one shot with general ease. Stat scaling Sans to frisk at any point of the game just doesn't work. Sans is supposed to be weak durability wise and the absolute weakest there.

 

[Jackythejack]

''Why even put him at wall level just put him at Below Average Human because Frisk be child''

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

I seriously think we shouldn't scale charaters by attack values, like we wouldn't for any other game.

The justifications for why we do it for Undertale are pretty shallow, to be honest.

 

[Jackythejack]

I mean right now we're scaling them to a singular feat anyways so...that's not what we're doing.

We used to do that I'm pretty sure.