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Samus is still a certain tier

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Since I can talk about Metroid again and finally learned the forum move has been done, I’m responding to an objection to my position on a certain thread.
That thread was closed because “Another one bites the dust” without my position having been actually debunked and while I was writing a reply, so it’s OK to continue this.

Dragonmasterxyz: “Low-End Inconsistencies exist. I guess we should downgrade every character for low end feats. Next.”

1) How do we know those two moments are low-end outliers? High-end outliers, as well as low-in-canon-level works and misinterpreted “high-end moments”, exist too.
1.1a) Metroid: Samus & Joey was licensed by Nintendo but not written or even supervised by them, as they just let Kouji “draw it freely”, so it’s not as reliable as the games.
1.1b) The Magazine Z manga must have the same problem, as it has inconsistencies (I'm not counting the one with Other M), so it’s not as reliable as the games either.
1.1c) And even if those manga series were the same canon level as the games, their “high-end moments” still would be actually misinterpreted ones or total outliers.
1.2a) A misinterpreted moment from a game: Tallon Metroids survived Tallon IV’s Leviathan’s impact? They were taken to the planet by Space Pirates years after the crash.
1.2b) Another one: Dark Samus survives the destruction of Dark Aether, which was converted into energy? The planet was in another dimension, so she must’ve used her teleportation ability or the portal before the bounty hunter; and the planet also needed planetary energy to exist, so it collapsed because of having lost all of its energy.

2) Seriously, it’s not only the moments shown in the first two links, but also the official data and sandstone reference shown in the others.

As a conclusion said for a second time, canon in fiction is determined by general content.
 
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You should probably split this in two, we can't have a single CRT for multiple verses. I do agree with most of your arguments about Metroid, though, I've always found the verse to be questionable.
 
I'm not sure how related this is to what you're arguing, but Ridley's 6-B calc uses the size of a mountain for pixel scaling "(Using the minimum height for a mountain (300 meters, according to Wikipedia at least, I would like it if someone could find a better source.)" on what appears to be a 10 meters tall rock at best, but I've just gona through that part of the manga and found zero mention of it being one. I also have issues with a few other calculations of the verse.
 
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I should note that I do not agree with your standing in the previous thread, I believe it's a misinterpretation of how we handle things on VSBW. I do, however, believe that your arguments about specific feats being wrong are correct.
 
I'm not sure how related this is to what you're arguing, but Ridley's 6-B calc uses the size of a mountain for pixel scaling "(Using the minimum height for a mountain (300 meters, according to Wikipedia at least, I would like it if someone could find a better source.)" on what appears to be a 10 meters tall rock at best, but I've just gona through that part of the manga and found zero mention of it being a manga. I also have issues with a few other calculations of the verse.
As said in the first point of this link, Ridley only destroys a fenced area having a statue.
 
You should preferly tag the Metroid (Verse) and Ridley topics in the thread, really don't like when users don't add those things in important threads.
 
Armorchompy:
Also, for point 1.2a, Samus needs the Defense Cannon to destroy a Leviathan directly and Phazon energy to destroy a Leviathan's core, so she couldn't kill anything that could survive a Leviathan's impact.

Newendigo:
Done, and I also tagged Dark Samus.
 
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I believe surface area would need to be taken in consideration when saying the Metroids tanked that attack, too.
 
First of all, you're still banned for another three months from talking about Nintendo topics. It's only January and you were told you cannot talk about this until April 21.
Second, like literally every single one of your threads; everything here relies way too heavily on a combination of personal conjectures and pet peeves rather than logic or reason.
  • Most of the time, the term "Outlier" gets thrown around as just an immature excuse to pretend a bunch of feats never happened when the clearly have
  • Samus & Joey is canon; there are too many references to the series found in Other M. And the interview actually mentions it giving inspiration to Other M as well as a prequel to Metroid Fusion. Also, Nintendo publishing it actually gives us more reason to give make it canon; the approved it just as much as the original manga that was confirmed canon.
  • Saying the original manga has inconsistencies isn't evidence that it isn't canon; quite the contrary. Even canon entries get inconsistencies like that all the time. The feats are still legit.
  • The next example is just a link to a deliberate troll's Reddit article The logic is about as bad as saying "Superman should be Street level because he consistently gets blitzed by Batman", or that "Hit should be subsonic because he was slower than the sound his muscles make that reached Dyspo's ears." I already debunked everything piece by piece last time it was brought up and I don't need to do it again.
  • That's actually not what the articles says; it just says Space Pirates took some Metroids for Phazon testings which happened after the crash. The Crash happened long before Space Pirates were a civilization. And while inverse square law could arguable effect some fodder enemies; the Leviathan's own impact still scales to itself. Which Dark Samus even at her weakest is superior to the combined might of Three Leviathan crashes. Which still scales to Samus Aran, the Chozo, the Luminoths, the Ing, ect either way. Especially since Samus still has multiple other planetary feats that are still canon.
  • The Dark Samus example is actually worded poorly; it doesn't come from Dark Samus' durability. I comes from Light Suit Samus' own attack potency. It was a casual attack from her that converted the entirety of Dark Aether into pure energy. Which is still a Low 4-C feat. Samus also completely destroyed the entire dimension while Dark Samus was still very much in it. So she still tanks it even in a severely weakened state. She also doesn't even exit it until the dimension collapsed.
The rest is just listing a bunch of fictional supermetals. Are you going to request that the Incredible Hulk gets downgraded to wall level because he struggled to break a wall made of Adamantium next? A simple wall of Adamantium has at least 5-A durability; so the same thing can be said about Metroid metals. Also, game mechanics are exactly that, game mechanics. They're the absolute worst reason to downplay a character with multiple feats that are much higher. Not to mention Metroid characters are like Dragon Ball characters in which they can actually control the AoE of their strongest explosives and the like; this is also explained in Samus & Joey. And even if not, cutscenes and cinematics typically take much higher priority than the gameplay sprites. You can't just be lazy and assumed all pixels are linearly accurate or drawn to scale.

Anyway, @SomebodyData might have more to add, but I honestly think closing this thread is really the best bet. But I tend to be more generous than other staff members, so I'll wait if they say I should.
 
To be fair, controlling AoE won't matter if your attack is 5-A, even if it was just a concentrated beam in a wall it would still logically **** up the planet, surface area can't save it here.

The deal with Dragon Ball is that (IIRC) is not that they control the AoE of their strongest attacks, is that they reduce the strength of their attacks in certain occasions. And if is not the case then it also falls under the same arbitrary dilema and bad example.
 
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Wall of text
I'm no longer restricted from talking about Metroid or Pokémon, and my threads don't stop making sense.
1) That reminds me of some people saying low-end outliers exist.
2) It's related to Other M... Another reason to think it's a low canon level.
3) Of course the feats in it are legit too.
4) Where's the link to that rebuttal, please?
5) OK, what proves Space Pirates were on Tallon IV prior to the crash?
6) Again, Dark Aether wasn't turned into energy but destroyed; and the dimension must still exist, as what was created by the crash wasn't a dimension but a rift to it.
I also mentioned the sandstone reference, and I have something to say about the rest but this isn't the right time.
 
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You are still restricted for another 80 days. Your official restriction is lifted on April 21 2021. Today is January 30 2021. Do the math
  • Low end outliers, that means characters struggling to do weaker feats are outliers while high end feats of planet busting showings are legit. The opposite of what the OP appears to be trying to argue.
  • It is still canon; Other M is still canon despite the PIS stuff
  • And you point is?
  • Forum moved F'd up, but I wrote a giant wall of text how he deliberately took every feat our of context. All of Samus feats are done via her own standard equipment. Bishop never amped her; she borrowed fractions of her power but he's by no means leagues above her. Ice Beam simply bounced of Joey's mirror; it didn't amp it she simply expanded the AoE while lowering the precision. Among many other things.
  • Space Pirates weren't Tallon IV Metroids and Chozo were. It was the Chozo that moved Metroids there.
  • It was created but the Leviathan when it split all of its mass and energy in half and warned the entire planet to have spatial intangibility via existing across 2 parallel dimensions at once. It also created the parallel dimension by shifting the transdimensional flux. Samus Aran did convert it into mass energy, then she fused it back into Light Aether. She restored Aether to a single planet via mass energy conversion. And the dimension was stated to have collapsed by Samus Aran's Sonic Boom attack.
 
Lurking, hopefully DDM can solve this shit though so I don't have to join.
But holy ****, a lot of these points are either ripped out of context or twisted beyond belief, there's only like one or two things here that have any actual merit but are easily explained away by it being a game first and foremost and Samus just cant annihilate everything on screen otherwise they wouldnt be a game to play in the first place even though we know damn well she can in lore when not hindered by gameplay and game design. (It's basically the same as how Samus can't blow up locked gates or door ways, even though we literally see the SA-X using her own equipment casually nuke a sealed off door in a cutscene in the first time we see it).
 
Can we at least take a glance at some of the calculations now that we're here? Like the ZSS one, or the Ridley mountain one. And the freezing one, do we still even use that kinda feat?

Also, two questions:

1) Has anyone ever tried debunking Zebes' 960x gravity by pointing out that not only would it be a black hole, but unaugmented child Samus walks perfectly fine on it?

2) What are those references to Samus & Joey? I don't really know it much, I'm just curious
 
Wall of text
SomebodyData: “Yeah, if he hasn't really bothered Metroid or Pokemon, I don’t think he should be banned from either.”
Antvasima: “Agreed.”
1) Why do low-end moments have to be the outliers, and why do high-end moments have to be the legit ones?
2a) Other M is canon but in a lower level than other main games and not only because of the PIS moments… Seriously, Samus being shorter than 6’3’’?.
2b) That manga wasn’t published by Nintendo but Comic BomBom, and again, the former didn’t even supervised it but simply was OK with there being a work with a child.
3) My point is that Ridley only destroys a flat area surrounded by rocky walls and a rocky fence.
4) Language… Anyway, I could take some time to research that manga if I’m convinced it’s canon.
5a) What proves the Chozo took Metroids to Tallon IV?
5b) As I said, Samus needs the Defense Cannon against an entire Leviathan and Phazon against one’s core, so she couldn't kill anything that could survive one’s impact.
6) U-Mos only states a rift was created, Samus only retrieves energy from Dark Aether, and where is it stated that the dimension is collapsed by her Sonic Boom?
I didn’t read the supermetals section of that paragraph well, and I edited the reply but you’d already replied, sorry… Anyway, I also mentioned the sandstone reference, which is consistent with one of the official data pieces.
 
Can we at least take a glance at some of the calculations now that we're here? Like the ZSS one, or the Ridley mountain one. And the freezing one, do we still even use that kinda feat?

ridley one? Sure, scaling is a bit sus and there's better ways to go about, **** I could probably redo it quickly if I was forced to do it, but that's probably best to do in another thread if for no other reason then this one is filled with a multitude of sus reasoning or in some cases, outright misinformation like the Tallon Metroid or Dark Samus point and having an actual point to discuss in a thread like this doesnt help if other people decide to look in and join.
The ZSS one though I don't think there's any issues with that one at least, unless some inverse square law shit comes into play and the freezing one? We actually do scale freezing feats to AP and the like, just not to someone's durability, so it can scale to Samus' AP and tech on par but if someone tanked it it would be just ice resistance (******* absolutely insane resistance, but still), at least that's what I've gathered from the multitude of threads on this subject or ones close to it. It's a bit weird but it goes only one way.

Has anyone ever tried debunking Zebes' 960x gravity by pointing out that not only would it be a black hole, but unaugmented child Samus walks perfectly fine on it?

Literally tens of thousands of people if not far more.
Fiction my dude, I doubt Retro went THAT in depth of the logistics of it, hell given barely anyone even mentions that when trying to debunk it should tell you that not many people would even consider that possibility. But Zebes IS meant to be a super dense planet, if I recall it's even outright stated to have a hyper dense core, they probably just didn't realize it being that dense would be bordering on black hole shit.
From what I recall Samus never walked around on Zebes without augmentation, well, she did, but only in the Chozo mainland and inside, which we already know is regulated from outside hazards like the acid rain and all that fun stuff (not to mention gravity manipulation isn't even remotely outside their capabilities, ****, in the same manga the space pirates pull a giant black hole generator out their ass to give you an idea, or the black hole Bounty Hunter in Joey, or Nightmare, and then there's the fact the chozo can explicitly create devices and tech that ignores the effects of gravity, etc). Basically what I'm rying to say is, the ONLY time we see Samus walk around is in a place that is protected from the planet's harsh conditions by the same race that explicitly has gravity manipulating and negating capacity.

What are those references to Samus & Joey? I don't really know it much, I'm just curious

Be more specific to which ones exactly, I could probably grab the scans for you. (Actually speaking of Samus and Joey, there's a bunch of bit feats in that as well which kinda further enforce low ends not being legit, like Samus tanking a continent size nuclear explosion without a scratch while emerging from the center of the explosion, her ship too).
 
Lurking, hopefully DDM can solve this shit though so I don't have to join.
But holy ****, a lot of these points are either ripped out of context or twisted beyond belief, there's only like one or two things here that have any actual merit but are easily explained away by it being a game first and foremost and Samus just cant annihilate everything on screen otherwise they wouldnt be a game to play in the first place even though we know damn well she can in lore when not hindered by gameplay and game design. (It's basically the same as how Samus can't blow up locked gates or door ways, even though we literally see the SA-X using her own equipment casually nuke a sealed off door in a cutscene in the first time we see it).
Samus just can't annihilate everything on screen, otherwise there wouldn't be a game to play in the first place? Again, I have something to say about that later.
The SA-X needs a Super Missile to destroy that hatch, which is a grey one and is at the lowest security level, and it may even not be active in that moment (it doesn't glow, but that may be a game development problem).
 
ridley one? Sure, scaling is a bit sus and there's better ways to go about, **** I could probably redo it quickly if I was forced to do it, but that's probably best to do in another thread if for no other reason then this one is filled with a multitude of sus reasoning or in some cases, outright misinformation like the Tallon Metroid or Dark Samus point and having an actual point to discuss in a thread like this doesnt help if other people decide to look in and join.
I think that'd be a good idea, considering they make the area destroyed dozens of times bigger than it normally is.
The ZSS one though I don't think there's any issues with that one at least, unless some inverse square law shit comes into play
It calculates it as if Samus wasn't protected by the spaceship itself, there's a lotta issue with that. Besides, even if it was fine, it should be moved to an on-site blog and properly evaluated.
And the freezing one? We actually do scale freezing feats to AP and the like, just not to someone's durability, so it can scale to Samus' AP and tech on par but if someone tanked it it would be just ice resistance (******* absolutely insane resistance, but still), at least that's what I've gathered from the multitude of threads on this subject or ones close to it. It's a bit weird but it goes only one way.
Any actual reason it should scale to her other weaponry? It's not like it draws from a magic source, for all we know her freezing tech is way better than anything else.
Literally tens of thousands of people if not far more.
Fiction my dude, I doubt Retro went THAT in depth of the logistics of it, hell given barely anyone even mentions that when trying to debunk it should tell you that not many people would even consider that possibility. But Zebes IS meant to be a super dense planet, if I recall it's even outright stated to have a hyper dense core, they probably just didn't realize it being that dense would be bordering on black hole shit.
From what I recall Samus never walked around on Zebes without augmentation, well, she did, but only in the Chozo mainland and inside, which we already know is regulated from outside hazards like the acid rain and all that fun stuff (not to mention gravity manipulation isn't even remotely outside their capabilities, ****, in the same manga the space pirates pull a giant black hole generator out their ass to give you an idea, or the black hole Bounty Hunter in Joey, or Nightmare, and then there's the fact the chozo can explicitly create devices and tech that ignores the effects of gravity, etc). Basically what I'm rying to say is, the ONLY time we see Samus walk around is in a place that is protected from the planet's harsh conditions by the same race that explicitly has gravity manipulating and negating capacity.
I mean, they say she won't survive Zebes' harsh environment, I think if the gravity was lethal they'd outright mention that instead. But no, in the very first few pages of the second chapter you can straight-up see her standing outside of any building, and without any weird clothing that might protect her too.

You could say that they were already protecting her from it somehow, but don't you think that's a lot of assumptions compared to just saying the Metroid Prime mass is either a mistake or somehow doesn't affect gravity? To me accepting it without further proof feels like accepting a Magnitude 20 earthquake statement.
Be more specific to which ones exactly, I could probably grab the scans for you. (Actually speaking of Samus and Joey, there's a bunch of bit feats in that as well which kinda further enforce low ends not being legit, like Samus tanking a continent size nuclear explosion without a scratch while emerging from the center of the explosion, her ship too).
I don't really know, DDM mentioned them tho.
 
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Actually, another "anti-feat" for the gravity is indeed, "the gravitational field of a micro black hole", which overpowers Zebes' gravity and breaks its shield, beginning to suck stuff in. Considering Zebes' mass is comparable to actual, non-micro black holes, this makes no sense if we work under the assumption that its gravity is at those levels. It was even said this black hole would swallow the planet.

AFTER the shield is broken, these "Kreatz" and "Mauk" guys, whose species didn't evolve on Zebes, can also stand on it just fine in chapter 6. This is before the Chozo even realize they're here, mind you.

Samus is once again on Zebes without protection, before even meeting with the Chozo again, when she confronts Ridley as a kid in Volume 2, Chapter 10, Page 5

If we are to assume the Chozo cancel the extra gravity of the area they're in even AFTER the shield that supposedly did so, then any calculation that uses the 960x gravity in that area is worthless, which might extend to all of them, and certainly extends to RIdley's "mountain destruction" feat, since it was done in that area.
 
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Samus just can't annihilate everything on screen, otherwise there wouldn't be a game to play in the first place?

Uh, yeah, that goes for literally every single game ever, it's not just a Metroid thing, you don't see Link cutting down wooden doors, Mario breaking through walls and pipes, Pokemon cutting down tiny ass trees, and so on because that's not how games work. There's a thing for this, it's called gameplay segregation.

Again, I have something to say about that later.

i mean go ahead, but it better be worth while.

The SA-X needs a Super Missile to destroy that hatch, which is a grey one and is at the lowest security level, and it may even not be active in that moment (it doesn't glow, but that may be a game development problem).

Yes and? The weapon it used wasn't the point, the point was outside of gameplay Samus can easily destroy everything in her way without any issue because we see the SA-X do it all through the game, even when Samus gets the same weapons and becomes stronger then the SA-X, that issue still exists, because gameplay dude. Point is she completely ****** it, the security levels don't change the material the doors are made of dude, it's literally just the existence of it a door is locked or not, that is all the security levels do, it's just clearance and unlocking the doors. And that was one example, there's a multitude of examples in the game, you know how many times you come across the SA-X's trails of destruction? Doors and locks completely blown out, entire ROOMS leveled and destroyed.
The SA-X using Samus' own equipment has destroyed doors, gates, locks, entire gameplay portions that result in the level layout being changed, and you're going to argue that Samus can't actually do that even though we literally see in the same game that she can when unhindered? And that doesn't even just go for the SA-X, the security droid and Nightmare do the same.



It calculates it as if Samus wasn't protected by the spaceship itself, there's a lotta issue with that. Besides, even if it was fine, it should be moved to an on-site blog and properly evaluated.

That may not even be a issue, pretty sure Samus scales to her ship, hell she might even scale above it depending on which ship and the timeframe.
True, I'll give you that.

Any actual reason it should scale to her other weaponry? It's not like it draws from a magic source, for all we know her freezing tech is way better than anything else.

Pretty sure there is, I'd have to look though (it's not like I have metroid scans or anything saved, not really my main thing on the wiki as you probably know, probably best to ask DDM on that one). And uh, magic source? You'd be surprised as to what exists in Metroid (magic is one such thing). And no, her ice beam is explicitly not anywhere close to her best weapon, Plasma beam is always >>> Ice Beam to give an idea, and even Plasma aint her best, except against Metroids who are weak to cold of any kind. Ice Beam is just considered one step above her basic weapons for the most part.

I mean, they say she won't survive Zebes' harsh environment, I think if the gravity was lethal they'd outright mention that instead. But no, in the very first few pages of the second chapter you can straight-up see her standing outside of any particular places, and without any weird clothing too.

Why would they? They don't mention a lot of things like the acid, windstorms, toxic environment, ridiculous temperature spikes, etc. It's dangerous outside of Crateria and Torian, that's what we're told, and it's not wrong.
Yes, you do see her standing straight up without any protection, but that's still within the chozo domain? (Pretty sure it's the ruins actually). Also see below on your point, they have a huge forcefield that can briefly hold up against a black hole. As long as Samus is within Crateria or Tourian, point remains, nothing is actually questionable here, it'd only bring a issue if she was anywhere else.

You could say that they were already protecting her from it somehow, but don't you think that's a lot of assumptions compared to just saying the Metroid Prime mass is either a mistake or somehow doesn't affect gravity? To me accepting it without further proof feels like accepting a Magnitude 20 earthquake statement.

Not really. We know a few things for certain, Samus couldn't survive outside of the Chozo designated areas for a multitude of varying factors.
We know the chozo are quite capable of creating tech that also negates the effects of harsh gravity and they do it often.
And we also know for a fact that they have a giant forcefield that can withstand black hole tier gravity for some time.
Honestly, the only assumption that needs to be made is that one the few dozen things that Crateria and Tourian is protected against is the gravity, which we know they can and have easily done before and given we know they're protected from all outside forces more or less, why wouldnt gravity be apart of those?
This only works if you're under the notion that Zebes doesnt have high gravity to begin with, but if we're to believe it does, then by default, that place is protected against it as that would just be one of the many things that gets told to **** off within those areas.

And as for it being a mistake, I'll be real with you, I thought that once too, **** ask DDM, pretty sure I brought it up to him a long time ago as well given it does sound kinda ridiculous, but looking at what we're told pointblank.

We're told Zebes is a hyperdense planet (so it being super dense due to the mass is the point and not an oversight, even if it's black hole dense, it doesn't matter, that's the intention).
Zebes has always been given higher gravity in every outside material (not to this extent obviously, but it's clearly intended to have high gravity, Retro just went a overboard, but it being insane doesnt make it wrong).
And as for it being a mistake? That's actually something that's basically confirmed to not be the case, Metroid Prime was gone through two completely different versions, the original Prime and the PAL/Trilogy version had almost the entire game's logs and data entries and lore completely overhauled and redone, yet out of everything, Zebes' stats were untouched, even though 99% of the game was completely rewritten, put simply, it was intentional and they kept it like that on purpose.

Zebes' shield with "the gravitational field of a micro black hole", which easily also overpowers Zebes' gravity, beginning to suck stuff in. Considering Zebes' mass is comparable to actual, non-micro black holes, this makes no sense if we work under the assumption that its gravity is at those levels. It was even said this black hole would swallow the planet.

You're confusing mass with gravity, 960g while tough aint shit compared to an actual black hole the size of a country. Of course a black hole swallow the planet, it could be 10,000g and the black hole would still do that.

These "Kreatz" and "Mauk" guys, whose species didn't evolve on Zebes, can also stand on it just fine in chapter 6. This is before the Chozo even realize they're here, mind you.

And? They aren't exactly human and we know they're superhuman. This isn't an actual point unless we know exactly how strong they are, they'd just scale is all. Chozo didn't evolve on Zebes either, they're just ridiculously superhuman.

Samus is once again on Zebes without protection, before even meeting with the Chozo again, when she confronts Ridley as a kid in Volume 2, Chapter 10, Page 5

But that's literally wrong though? I'm like 99% sure that's Samus' home colony.
 
That may not even be a issue, pretty sure Samus scales to her ship, hell she might even scale above it depending on which ship and the timeframe.
True, I'll give you that.
She scales above it in her suit, but this is for Zero Suit Samus.
Pretty sure there is, I'd have to look though (it's not like I have metroid scans or anything saved, not really my main thing on the wiki as you probably know, probably best to ask DDM on that one). And uh, magic source? You'd be surprised as to what exists in Metroid (magic is one such thing). And no, her ice beam is explicitly not anywhere close to her best weapon, Plasma beam is always >>> Ice Beam to give an idea, and even Plasma aint her best, except against Metroids who are weak to cold of any kind. Ice Beam is just considered one step above her basic weapons for the most part.
I know magic exists, I've played most of the games, but again, resistance to freezing isn't the same as resistance to physical damage- maybe people in Metroid just have naturally high ice resist, what do I know.
I understand your point but this is a lot of assumptions compared to "the MP writers and rewriters didn't quite understand how much mass that is". Let's compare the amount of assumptions you have to make one way or the other.

If Zebes does not have 960x gravity:

1) The Metroid Prime writers and rewriters made an oopsie.

2) Probably something else idk


If it does:

1) All the other sources stating a completely different mass for Zebes are wrong/retconned

2) Both the Chozo, even elderly ones, and whatever the **** Samus' friends were have Class 100 LS despite their species not evolving for it.

3) The Chozo protected an environment that evolved in that gravity from that gravity, without any ecological repercussions (And this is very important because the Chozo care a lot about keeping the balance of their ecosystem).

4) This protection was unrelated to the forcefield that the space pirates destroyed.

5) The planet does not turn into a star for unexplained reasons.

6) Overall, gravity appears to behave normally on it with absolutely no exceptions.


No offense but to me this feels like saying "The feat is legit, the planet they're on is just really tough" to a 20-something magnitude earthquake statement
 
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She scales above it in her suit, but this is for Zero Suit Samus.

Actually, I was thinking there may be a way to scale her. ZSS can take hits from Pirates right?

I know magic exists, I've played most of the games, but again, resistance to freezing isn't the same as resistance to physical damage- maybe people in Metroid just have naturally high ice resist, what do I know.

Actually, I dont think many do have a high resistance except maybe a few bosses, but that could be gameplay.

I understand your point but this is a lot of assumptions compared to "the MP writers and rewriters didn't quite understand how much mass that is". Let's compare the amount of assumptions you have to make one way or the other.

It isn't a lot of assumptions, it's only a single assumption, and that assumption is that Crateria and Torian are protected against the gravity like they are from every other environmental hazard. It's only a single assumption being made, and that assumption is less of an assumption really. It's more like, if they're procted from outside forces, why would it also protect them against the gravity? Because we know damn well that the chozo can do it so it's not even a matter of if they can but rather if gravity is just apart of the long list of things they're protected against.

They do understand how much mass it is though, it's literally why it's called a superdense planet.

The Metroid Prime writers and rewriters made an oopsie.

No they clearly knew what they were doing, you don't give a planet a super huge **** off amount of mass and go "it's also a hyperdense planet" and not know you're making a hyperdense planet with an insane mass. And then proceed to keep it that way but change everything else in the game.

>All the other sources stating a completely different mass for Zebes are wrong.

They quite literally are though, and even then, those other sources still say it has higher gravity then earth. But the ONLY time in canon it;'s given a mass, is in Prime, there is no "other sources" in canon, it's Prime, and it's been purposely kept in.

Both the Chozo and whatever the **** Samus' friends were have Class 100 LS despite not evolving for it.

The Chozo are explicitly vastly superhuman so that's a moot point. And, yeah, they would, if they could withstand then it then they would, though if they were in Crateria or Tourian, well see above.

The Chozo protected an environment that evolved in that gravity from that gravity, without any ecological repercussions (And this is very important because the Chozo care a lot about keeping the balance of their ecosystem).

Yes, they did, but only in the places they primarily preoccupy, and this isn't even a gravity thing, they protected those locations from everything to make it a suitable living place for them and potential visitors like the Federation if memory serves. Completely removing a places toxicity or super ******* up weather cycles would impact the ecosystem in the locale too, they did it anyway. This isn't even an assumption or counter point because they LITERALLY changed the ecosystem there regardless of the gravity.

This protection was unrelated to the forcefield that the space pirates destroyed.

Are you implying that the protection WAS related? Because if you are, that's basically confirmation if the Chozo set up a huge forcefield that needs a literal blackhole to get past being somehow connected to the protection on Crateria and Torian.

The planet does not turn into a black hole for unexplained reasons.

Welcome to fiction, this isnt a real argument and I could give you a list of planets in sci-fi that should be black holes or collapsed under their own weight and became a neutron star but simply havent. And the worst part of this point is, the gravity doesnt even matter to this point.
The only thing that matters is the size and mass, not the gravity, and the size and mass is 100% undeniable, there's zero assumptions in regards to that, we're told multiple times how much zebes weighs and the size.
It being a black hole has nothing to do with gravity but the explicit statistics we're given, and those stats? Aren't assumptions, fan calcs, or whatever, it's 100% canon and explicitly purposeful information to the point they even say it's a superdense core'd planet for it's size. As in, Retro knew they were making a stupid dense planet, and they wanted it to be like that, kept it like that, and even said it was superdense.

Overall, gravity appears to behave normally on it with absolutely no exceptions.

I mean it probably would if you were a superhuman who can leap thousands of feet, toss around animals weighing hundreds of tons, rip and grapple with robots, physically have the strength to rip through super durable metal and mechas and more.

No offense but to me this feels like saying "The feat is legit, the planet they're on is just really tough" to a 20-something magnitude earthquake statement

It literally is though? It's outright stated to be a superdense planet, your whole issue of "it's way to dense and it doesnt make sense" is literally the point, Retro wanted it to be a superdense planet with an insane mass. You may not like it but it's something they did on purpose and knowing full well it was ridiculously dense, now did they know it was black hole tier dense? Maybe not, but they still were making an effort to make it as dense as possible.

So as said, the only assumption being made is that the birds that can **** with gravity and outright negate it has their main locales protected from that just like they have it protected everything else.
Everything else isnt a counter or an assumption, it's just the way it is.
 
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Actually, I was thinking there may be a way to scale her. ZSS can take hits from Pirates right?
I mean, the ship was destroyed by that impact, so she wouldn't scale to it anyway.
It isn't a lot of assumptions, it's only a single assumption, and that assumption is that Crateria and Torian are protected against the gravity like they are from every other environmental hazard. It's only a single assumption being made, and that assumption is less of an assumption really. It's more like, if they're procted from outside forces, why would it also protect them against the gravity? Because we know damn well that the chozo can do it so it's not even a matter of if they can but rather if gravity is just apart of the long list of things they're protected against.

They do understand how much mass it is though, it's literally why it's called a superdense planet.

No they clearly knew what they were doing, you don't give a planet a super huge **** off amount of mass and go "it's also a hyperdense planet" and not know you're making a hyperdense planet with an insane mass. And then proceed to keep it that way but change everything else in the game.
I understand that, but them saying it's dense doesn't mean they realized what gravity it would have.
Yes, they did, but only in the places they primarily preoccupy, and this isn't even a gravity thing, they protected those locations from everything to make it a suitable living place for them and potential visitors like the Federation if memory serves. Completely removing a places toxicity or super ******* up weather cycles would impact the ecosystem in the locale too, they did it anyway. This isn't even an assumption or counter point because they LITERALLY changed the ecosystem there regardless of the gravity.
But the lifeforms in Zebes seem to have adacted to it perfectly.
Welcome to fiction, this isnt a real argument and I could give you a list of planets in sci-fi that should be black holes or collapsed under their own weight and became a neutron star but simply havent.
??? It's a mistake anyway, and one unaddressed. The fact that it's common (except it really isn't, I'd love to see that list) doesn't change that. So, two assumptions versus one.

Besides, if we accept that Zebes' mass does not turn it into a star, then we've accepted that it does not function as it would in real life, so why are we so sure that it affects gravity so directly?

Finally, if indeed the gravity is 960x and the Chozo just protected a specific area from it, then the Ridley feat would have to be trashed, as it happened in that area. Hell, for all we know Zero Mission takes place there too, it's not like Mother Brain had any reason to move.
 
I can't talk about Mario or Zelda yet, so that thread will have to continue waiting.
The SA-X doesn't cause destructions all the time, and when it does, it needs Power Bombs, as I said before, or Super Missiles, which does matter.
Also, security levels aren't just a game mechanic.
Joy.

It does, we literally see the aftermath of it destroying things, we go through entire rooms that have been leveled and destroyed. Yet here you are trying to say that Samus wouldnt be able to do the same, even though an exact copy of her does so, even in the same game. And I should also mention that Benzdium is one of the most used materials throughout the galaxy, and it's considered nigh-indestructible, and SA-X, the BOX and more can rip through it despite being weaker then Samus, yet Samus can't, why? Because that's not how video games work. When Samus uses a missile of any kind the door or room she's in doesnt instantly fall apart, even though we see the SA-X do literally that.

Power Bombs are weak though? Samus can canonically tank them and in her normal state they're incapable of even harming her?

I never said they weren't a gameplay mechanic, they obviously exist, they just arent shit and wouldnt stop Samus if she wanted to break past them outside of gameplay because all they are are locks.
 
I mean it probably would if you were a superhuman who can leap thousands of feet, toss around animals weighing hundreds of tons, rip and grapple with robots, physically have the strength to rip through super durable metal and mechas and more.
Also, what I meant by that is, flowers and plants grow normally, missiles aren't affected by it, stuff falls at a normal pace including Samus when she jumps, water lowers the gravity so much it makes it hard to move (but that would have no effect if the gravity was so high), and other stuff like that.
 
I mean, the ship was destroyed by that impact, so she wouldn't scale to it anyway.

Actually, if it was destroyed, and she was inside it, that would actually lead to some scaling of some degree, we'd just need to work out the formula. (Also given how durable these ships can be, it being destroyed actually implies high gravity).

I understand that, but them saying it's dense doesn't mean they realized what gravity it would have.

So? They may not have figured out the exact value, but what they did know was that they were making a stupid dense planet on purpose, and if it's like every other person who had a shot at making zebes stats, they wanted it to have some degree of high gravity. How much? Doesn;t matter, we can figure it out, and it's 960g. That's what it comes out to so that's what it is. And your counterarguments only work if zebes had normal gravity fyi, even if it's as high as simply 2g, the whole samus wasnt protected against gravity point would say no to that, and when we know, at the very least, Zebes by all intents and purposes IS supposed to have at least some degree of high gravity, well, at that point the only other logical conclusion is that Samus was protected because even 2 or 3g would **** up a small child.

But the lifeforms in Zebes seem to have adacted to it perfectly.

Yes, they did. You're acting like if gravity was changed it would **** up the lifeforms while ignoring that we already know for a fact basically everything else was ****** up too. If a lifeform is adapted to acid rains and deadly toxins and suddenly those go away, it'll **** up the animals that adapted to it too, and yet the animals are dealing with that fine as well.

??? It's a mistake anyway, and one unaddressed. The fact that it's common (except it really isn't, I'd love to see that list) doesn't change that. So, two assumptions versus one.

Apocalypse for starters.
Not an assumption, do you know what an assumption is? Quite frankly I don't give a **** why it isnt a black hole, point is it isnt one, and it being a black hole has absolutely nothing to do with gravity so it's completely irrelevant, it has everything to do with the mass, and like it or not, that's Zebes, canonical mass and it's been stated to be that multiple times over

Besides, if we accept that Zebes' mass does not turn it into a star, then we've accepted that it does not function as it would in real life, so why are we so sure that it affects gravity so directly?

Dude, that's a personal issue, like it or not, Zebes is a hyperdense planet with an easily calculatable gravity, we're given the size, we're told it's mass, the size and mass were done on purpose for it to be dense, it was purposely kept in in all rewrites and rereleases.
Better yet, why do you keep saying Zebes would turn into a star or black hole? Have you even calculated that or are you just assuming?

Finally, if indeed the gravity is 960x and the Chozo just protected a specific area from it, then the Ridley feat would have to be trashed, as it happened in that area. Hell, for all we know Zero Mission takes place there too, it's not like Mother Brain had any reason to move.

Zero Mission takes place all over the planet, and what do you mean "for all we know it could have taken place there too", dude we literally are given the names of all the locations of the areas in every single game Zebes takes place upon, like, Norfair for example sure as hell aint protected, or Maridia. dude quite frankyly i don't give a damn about the Ridley feat, that isn't even relevant to this topic is it not? We're talking about the gravity being legit, not if the Ridley feat is legit, the fact you bring that up is kinda sus.
 
Also, what I meant by that is, flowers and plants grow normally, missiles aren't affected by it, stuff falls at a normal pace including Samus when she jumps, water lowers the gravity so much it makes it hard to move (but that would have no effect if the gravity was so high), and other stuff like that.
Flowers and plants only grow in Brinstar though? (Also i dont think this even matters given how many times it's been stated Zebes is completely unlivable by almost all forms of life except the most adaptable and intense organisms).
Missiles not being effected matter why? The only time I recall that missiles were effected was the Federation's missiles against Nightmare. Could be forgetting Other M though because I havent touched that since launch.
Water would still hinder movement though, the water would weigh 960x more as well, everything would have it's effective weight increased.
 
Goddamn why are we even arguing this.

Is the mass and size for Zebes wrong? That's literally all that matters here, the rest is just pointless fluff.
So answer that question, are you saying that the mass and size given for Zebes is incorrect?
 
Goddamn why are we even arguing this.

Is the mass and size for Zebes wrong? That's literally all that matters here, the rest is just pointless fluff.
So answer that question, are you saying that the mass and size given for Zebes is incorrect?
It's not all that matters. What matters is if the gravity is wrong. Of course mass and size cause it IRL, but since we've already accepted that Zebes breaks away from realistic conventions about gravity by not becoming a star (which is indeed caused by gravity, as what leads to a star's creation is its own pressure compressing it to the point of a nuclear reaction), that clearly isn't the case here, at least not in as it would IRL.
 
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Zero Mission takes place all over the planet, and what do you mean "for all we know it could have taken place there too", dude we literally are given the names of all the locations of the areas in every single game Zebes takes place upon, like, Norfair for example sure as hell aint protected, or Maridia. dude quite frankyly i don't give a damn about the Ridley feat, that isn't even relevant to this topic is it not? We're talking about the gravity being legit, not if the Ridley feat is legit, the fact you bring that up is kinda sus.
I mean, if my argument is rejected, I don't want that to be forgotten. Without Zebes' gravity and the incorrect size scaling, that's like, a 9-A feat.
 
It's not all that matters. What matters is if the gravity is wrong. Of course mass and size cause it IRL, but since we've already accepted that Zebes breaks away from realistic conventions about gravity by not becoming a star (which is indeed caused by gravity, as what leads to a star's creation is its own pressure compressing it to the point of a nuclear reaction), that clearly isn't the case here, at least not in as it would IRL.

It actually does, everything stems from the given canonical mass and size, so either it's right or it's wrong. The gravity stems from that, the gravity is 960g due to the given size and mass (among other things).
We haven't actually, that's kinda just you acting like because the planet didn't instantly turn into a black hole it means absolutely everything we know about it has to be false, that's a personal issue dude, and to make matters worse, that's not even inherently true, as said above, are you even certain that Zebes is dense enough for it collapse into a black hole? especially when Zebes is composed of a magic space metal material we're told is almost indestructible? Because mind you, Zebes isn't made of things like stone and the like or normal materials, it's just as durable as it is dense, the planet's crust is almost entirely composed of urthic ore and the stones on the planet are of a special type that make it a fortress.
this is another factor you're falling to consider, Zebes isn't composed or made like a normal IRL planet, it's composed of indestructible material.
Also did you just link me an article explaining how stars come to be? This isnt middle school dude.

You've also failed to address my point about the Ridley calculation.

Failed implies I tried to begin with, I simply don';t give a shit because it has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not the gravity is legit or not, it's a completely different topic, if we were actually talking about the Ridley calc I would have responded, but we aren't and I dont feel like having to juggle two topics at once here.
 
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I mean, if my argument is rejected, I don't want that to be forgotten. Without Zebes' gravity and the incorrect size scaling, that's like, a 9-A feat.

I mean, does it even matter? I already said that feat needs to be redone anyway so it's not like the current calc is gonna stick around forever anyway.
 
It actually does, everything stems from the given canonical mass and size, so either it's right or it's wrong. The gravity stems from that, the gravity is 960g due to the given size and mass (among other things).
We haven't actually, that's kinda just you acting like because the planet didn't instantly turn into a black hole it means absolutely everything we know about it has to be false, that's a personal issue dude, and to make matters worse, that's not even inherently true, as said above, are you even certain that Zebes is dense enough for it collapse into a black hole, especially when Zebes is composed of a magic space metal material we're told is almost indestructible? Because mind you, Zebes isn't made of things like stone and the like or normal materials, it's just as durable as it is dense, the planet's crust is almost entirely composed of urthic ore and the stones on the planet are of a special type that make it a fortress.
this is another factor you're falling to consider, Zebes isn't composed or made like a normal IRL planet, it's composed of indestructible material.
Also did you just link me an article explaining how stars come to be? This isnt middle school dude.
I got a thousand issues but Metroid ain't one. Zebes being super durable is just as much of an assumption as gravity not applying normally to it. Besides, considering, again, nuclear reaction, it would have to be super-durable on that scale, which is an even bigger assumption.
I mean, does it even matter? I already said that feat needs to be redone anyway so it's not like the current calc is gonna stick around forever anyway.
Didn't want ya to waste your time recalculating it with the extra gravity, just wanted to get that out there.
 
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