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Samus is still a certain tier

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Since I can talk about Metroid again and finally learned the forum move has been done, I’m responding to an objection to my position on a certain thread.
That thread was closed because “Another one bites the dust” without my position having been actually debunked and while I was writing a reply, so it’s OK to continue this.

Dragonmasterxyz: “Low-End Inconsistencies exist. I guess we should downgrade every character for low end feats. Next.”

1) How do we know those two moments are low-end outliers? High-end outliers, as well as low-in-canon-level works and misinterpreted “high-end moments”, exist too.
1.1a) Metroid: Samus & Joey was licensed by Nintendo but not written or even supervised by them, as they just let Kouji “draw it freely”, so it’s not as reliable as the games.
1.1b) The Magazine Z manga must have the same problem, as it has inconsistencies (I'm not counting the one with Other M), so it’s not as reliable as the games either.
1.1c) And even if those manga series were the same canon level as the games, their “high-end moments” still would be actually misinterpreted ones or total outliers.
1.2a) A misinterpreted moment from a game: Tallon Metroids survived Tallon IV’s Leviathan’s impact? They were taken to the planet by Space Pirates years after the crash.
1.2b) Another one: Dark Samus survives the destruction of Dark Aether, which was converted into energy? The planet was in another dimension, so she must’ve used her teleportation ability or the portal before the bounty hunter; and the planet also needed planetary energy to exist, so it collapsed because of having lost all of its energy.

2) Seriously, it’s not only the moments shown in the first two links, but also the official data and sandstone reference shown in the others.

As a conclusion said for a second time, canon in fiction is determined by general content.
 
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Armorchompy

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You should probably split this in two, we can't have a single CRT for multiple verses. I do agree with most of your arguments about Metroid, though, I've always found the verse to be questionable.
 

Armorchompy

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I'm not sure how related this is to what you're arguing, but Ridley's 6-B calc uses the size of a mountain for pixel scaling "(Using the minimum height for a mountain (300 meters, according to Wikipedia at least, I would like it if someone could find a better source.)" on what appears to be a 10 meters tall rock at best, but I've just gona through that part of the manga and found zero mention of it being one. I also have issues with a few other calculations of the verse.
 
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Armorchompy

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I should note that I do not agree with your standing in the previous thread, I believe it's a misinterpretation of how we handle things on VSBW. I do, however, believe that your arguments about specific feats being wrong are correct.
 
I'm not sure how related this is to what you're arguing, but Ridley's 6-B calc uses the size of a mountain for pixel scaling "(Using the minimum height for a mountain (300 meters, according to Wikipedia at least, I would like it if someone could find a better source.)" on what appears to be a 10 meters tall rock at best, but I've just gona through that part of the manga and found zero mention of it being a manga. I also have issues with a few other calculations of the verse.
As said in the first point of this link, Ridley only destroys a fenced area having a statue.
 
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You should preferly tag the Metroid (Verse) and Ridley topics in the thread, really don't like when users don't add those things in important threads.
 
Armorchompy:
Also, for point 1.2a, Samus needs the Defense Cannon to destroy a Leviathan directly and Phazon energy to destroy a Leviathan's core, so she couldn't kill anything that could survive a Leviathan's impact.

Newendigo:
Done, and I also tagged Dark Samus.
 
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Armorchompy

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I believe surface area would need to be taken in consideration when saying the Metroids tanked that attack, too.
 

DarkDragonMedeus

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First of all, you're still banned for another three months from talking about Nintendo topics. It's only January and you were told you cannot talk about this until April 21.
Second, like literally every single one of your threads; everything here relies way too heavily on a combination of personal conjectures and pet peeves rather than logic or reason.
  • Most of the time, the term "Outlier" gets thrown around as just an immature excuse to pretend a bunch of feats never happened when the clearly have
  • Samus & Joey is canon; there are too many references to the series found in Other M. And the interview actually mentions it giving inspiration to Other M as well as a prequel to Metroid Fusion. Also, Nintendo publishing it actually gives us more reason to give make it canon; the approved it just as much as the original manga that was confirmed canon.
  • Saying the original manga has inconsistencies isn't evidence that it isn't canon; quite the contrary. Even canon entries get inconsistencies like that all the time. The feats are still legit.
  • The next example is just a link to a deliberate troll's Reddit article The logic is about as bad as saying "Superman should be Street level because he consistently gets blitzed by Batman", or that "Hit should be subsonic because he was slower than the sound his muscles make that reached Dyspo's ears." I already debunked everything piece by piece last time it was brought up and I don't need to do it again.
  • That's actually not what the articles says; it just says Space Pirates took some Metroids for Phazon testings which happened after the crash. The Crash happened long before Space Pirates were a civilization. And while inverse square law could arguable effect some fodder enemies; the Leviathan's own impact still scales to itself. Which Dark Samus even at her weakest is superior to the combined might of Three Leviathan crashes. Which still scales to Samus Aran, the Chozo, the Luminoths, the Ing, ect either way. Especially since Samus still has multiple other planetary feats that are still canon.
  • The Dark Samus example is actually worded poorly; it doesn't come from Dark Samus' durability. I comes from Light Suit Samus' own attack potency. It was a casual attack from her that converted the entirety of Dark Aether into pure energy. Which is still a Low 4-C feat. Samus also completely destroyed the entire dimension while Dark Samus was still very much in it. So she still tanks it even in a severely weakened state. She also doesn't even exit it until the dimension collapsed.
The rest is just listing a bunch of fictional supermetals. Are you going to request that the Incredible Hulk gets downgraded to wall level because he struggled to break a wall made of Adamantium next? A simple wall of Adamantium has at least 5-A durability; so the same thing can be said about Metroid metals. Also, game mechanics are exactly that, game mechanics. They're the absolute worst reason to downplay a character with multiple feats that are much higher. Not to mention Metroid characters are like Dragon Ball characters in which they can actually control the AoE of their strongest explosives and the like; this is also explained in Samus & Joey. And even if not, cutscenes and cinematics typically take much higher priority than the gameplay sprites. You can't just be lazy and assumed all pixels are linearly accurate or drawn to scale.

Anyway, @SomebodyData might have more to add, but I honestly think closing this thread is really the best bet. But I tend to be more generous than other staff members, so I'll wait if they say I should.
 
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To be fair, controlling AoE won't matter if your attack is 5-A, even if it was just a concentrated beam in a wall it would still logically fuck up the planet, surface area can't save it here.

The deal with Dragon Ball is that (IIRC) is not that they control the AoE of their strongest attacks, is that they reduce the strength of their attacks in certain occasions. And if is not the case then it also falls under the same arbitrary dilema and bad example.
 
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Wall of text
I'm no longer restricted from talking about Metroid or Pokémon, and my threads don't stop making sense.
1) That reminds me of some people saying low-end outliers exist.
2) It's related to Other M... Another reason to think it's a low canon level.
3) Of course the feats in it are legit too.
4) Where's the link to that rebuttal, please?
5) OK, what proves Space Pirates were on Tallon IV prior to the crash?
6) Again, Dark Aether wasn't turned into energy but destroyed; and the dimension must still exist, as what was created by the crash wasn't a dimension but a rift to it.
I also mentioned the sandstone reference, and I have something to say about the rest but this isn't the right time.
 
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DarkDragonMedeus

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You are still restricted for another 80 days. Your official restriction is lifted on April 21 2021. Today is January 30 2021. Do the math
  • Low end outliers, that means characters struggling to do weaker feats are outliers while high end feats of planet busting showings are legit. The opposite of what the OP appears to be trying to argue.
  • It is still canon; Other M is still canon despite the PIS stuff
  • And you point is?
  • Forum moved F'd up, but I wrote a giant wall of text how he deliberately took every feat our of context. All of Samus feats are done via her own standard equipment. Bishop never amped her; she borrowed fractions of her power but he's by no means leagues above her. Ice Beam simply bounced of Joey's mirror; it didn't amp it she simply expanded the AoE while lowering the precision. Among many other things.
  • Space Pirates weren't Tallon IV Metroids and Chozo were. It was the Chozo that moved Metroids there.
  • It was created but the Leviathan when it split all of its mass and energy in half and warned the entire planet to have spatial intangibility via existing across 2 parallel dimensions at once. It also created the parallel dimension by shifting the transdimensional flux. Samus Aran did convert it into mass energy, then she fused it back into Light Aether. She restored Aether to a single planet via mass energy conversion. And the dimension was stated to have collapsed by Samus Aran's Sonic Boom attack.
 
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Lurking, hopefully DDM can solve this shit though so I don't have to join.
But holy fuck, a lot of these points are either ripped out of context or twisted beyond belief, there's only like one or two things here that have any actual merit but are easily explained away by it being a game first and foremost and Samus just cant annihilate everything on screen otherwise they wouldnt be a game to play in the first place even though we know damn well she can in lore when not hindered by gameplay and game design. (It's basically the same as how Samus can't blow up locked gates or door ways, even though we literally see the SA-X using her own equipment casually nuke a sealed off door in a cutscene in the first time we see it).
 

Armorchompy

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Can we at least take a glance at some of the calculations now that we're here? Like the ZSS one, or the Ridley mountain one. And the freezing one, do we still even use that kinda feat?

Also, two questions:

1) Has anyone ever tried debunking Zebes' 960x gravity by pointing out that not only would it be a black hole, but unaugmented child Samus walks perfectly fine on it?

2) What are those references to Samus & Joey? I don't really know it much, I'm just curious
 
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SomebodyData: “Yeah, if he hasn't really bothered Metroid or Pokemon, I don’t think he should be banned from either.”
Antvasima: “Agreed.”
1) Why do low-end moments have to be the outliers, and why do high-end moments have to be the legit ones?
2a) Other M is canon but in a lower level than other main games and not only because of the PIS moments… Seriously, Samus being shorter than 6’3’’?.
2b) That manga wasn’t published by Nintendo but Comic BomBom, and again, the former didn’t even supervised it but simply was OK with there being a work with a child.
3) My point is that Ridley only destroys a flat area surrounded by rocky walls and a rocky fence.
4) Language… Anyway, I could take some time to research that manga if I’m convinced it’s canon.
5a) What proves the Chozo took Metroids to Tallon IV?
5b) As I said, Samus needs the Defense Cannon against an entire Leviathan and Phazon against one’s core, so she couldn't kill anything that could survive one’s impact.
6) U-Mos only states a rift was created, Samus only retrieves energy from Dark Aether, and where is it stated that the dimension is collapsed by her Sonic Boom?
I didn’t read the supermetals section of that paragraph well, and I edited the reply but you’d already replied, sorry… Anyway, I also mentioned the sandstone reference, which is consistent with one of the official data pieces.
 
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Can we at least take a glance at some of the calculations now that we're here? Like the ZSS one, or the Ridley mountain one. And the freezing one, do we still even use that kinda feat?

ridley one? Sure, scaling is a bit sus and there's better ways to go about, fuck I could probably redo it quickly if I was forced to do it, but that's probably best to do in another thread if for no other reason then this one is filled with a multitude of sus reasoning or in some cases, outright misinformation like the Tallon Metroid or Dark Samus point and having an actual point to discuss in a thread like this doesnt help if other people decide to look in and join.
The ZSS one though I don't think there's any issues with that one at least, unless some inverse square law shit comes into play and the freezing one? We actually do scale freezing feats to AP and the like, just not to someone's durability, so it can scale to Samus' AP and tech on par but if someone tanked it it would be just ice resistance (fucking absolutely insane resistance, but still), at least that's what I've gathered from the multitude of threads on this subject or ones close to it. It's a bit weird but it goes only one way.

Has anyone ever tried debunking Zebes' 960x gravity by pointing out that not only would it be a black hole, but unaugmented child Samus walks perfectly fine on it?

Literally tens of thousands of people if not far more.
Fiction my dude, I doubt Retro went THAT in depth of the logistics of it, hell given barely anyone even mentions that when trying to debunk it should tell you that not many people would even consider that possibility. But Zebes IS meant to be a super dense planet, if I recall it's even outright stated to have a hyper dense core, they probably just didn't realize it being that dense would be bordering on black hole shit.
From what I recall Samus never walked around on Zebes without augmentation, well, she did, but only in the Chozo mainland and inside, which we already know is regulated from outside hazards like the acid rain and all that fun stuff (not to mention gravity manipulation isn't even remotely outside their capabilities, fuck, in the same manga the space pirates pull a giant black hole generator out their ass to give you an idea, or the black hole Bounty Hunter in Joey, or Nightmare, and then there's the fact the chozo can explicitly create devices and tech that ignores the effects of gravity, etc). Basically what I'm rying to say is, the ONLY time we see Samus walk around is in a place that is protected from the planet's harsh conditions by the same race that explicitly has gravity manipulating and negating capacity.

What are those references to Samus & Joey? I don't really know it much, I'm just curious

Be more specific to which ones exactly, I could probably grab the scans for you. (Actually speaking of Samus and Joey, there's a bunch of bit feats in that as well which kinda further enforce low ends not being legit, like Samus tanking a continent size nuclear explosion without a scratch while emerging from the center of the explosion, her ship too).
 
Lurking, hopefully DDM can solve this shit though so I don't have to join.
But holy fuck, a lot of these points are either ripped out of context or twisted beyond belief, there's only like one or two things here that have any actual merit but are easily explained away by it being a game first and foremost and Samus just cant annihilate everything on screen otherwise they wouldnt be a game to play in the first place even though we know damn well she can in lore when not hindered by gameplay and game design. (It's basically the same as how Samus can't blow up locked gates or door ways, even though we literally see the SA-X using her own equipment casually nuke a sealed off door in a cutscene in the first time we see it).
Samus just can't annihilate everything on screen, otherwise there wouldn't be a game to play in the first place? Again, I have something to say about that later.
The SA-X needs a Super Missile to destroy that hatch, which is a grey one and is at the lowest security level, and it may even not be active in that moment (it doesn't glow, but that may be a game development problem).
 

Armorchompy

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ridley one? Sure, scaling is a bit sus and there's better ways to go about, fuck I could probably redo it quickly if I was forced to do it, but that's probably best to do in another thread if for no other reason then this one is filled with a multitude of sus reasoning or in some cases, outright misinformation like the Tallon Metroid or Dark Samus point and having an actual point to discuss in a thread like this doesnt help if other people decide to look in and join.
I think that'd be a good idea, considering they make the area destroyed dozens of times bigger than it normally is.
The ZSS one though I don't think there's any issues with that one at least, unless some inverse square law shit comes into play
It calculates it as if Samus wasn't protected by the spaceship itself, there's a lotta issue with that. Besides, even if it was fine, it should be moved to an on-site blog and properly evaluated.
And the freezing one? We actually do scale freezing feats to AP and the like, just not to someone's durability, so it can scale to Samus' AP and tech on par but if someone tanked it it would be just ice resistance (fucking absolutely insane resistance, but still), at least that's what I've gathered from the multitude of threads on this subject or ones close to it. It's a bit weird but it goes only one way.
Any actual reason it should scale to her other weaponry? It's not like it draws from a magic source, for all we know her freezing tech is way better than anything else.
Literally tens of thousands of people if not far more.
Fiction my dude, I doubt Retro went THAT in depth of the logistics of it, hell given barely anyone even mentions that when trying to debunk it should tell you that not many people would even consider that possibility. But Zebes IS meant to be a super dense planet, if I recall it's even outright stated to have a hyper dense core, they probably just didn't realize it being that dense would be bordering on black hole shit.
From what I recall Samus never walked around on Zebes without augmentation, well, she did, but only in the Chozo mainland and inside, which we already know is regulated from outside hazards like the acid rain and all that fun stuff (not to mention gravity manipulation isn't even remotely outside their capabilities, fuck, in the same manga the space pirates pull a giant black hole generator out their ass to give you an idea, or the black hole Bounty Hunter in Joey, or Nightmare, and then there's the fact the chozo can explicitly create devices and tech that ignores the effects of gravity, etc). Basically what I'm rying to say is, the ONLY time we see Samus walk around is in a place that is protected from the planet's harsh conditions by the same race that explicitly has gravity manipulating and negating capacity.
I mean, they say she won't survive Zebes' harsh environment, I think if the gravity was lethal they'd outright mention that instead. But no, in the very first few pages of the second chapter you can straight-up see her standing outside of any building, and without any weird clothing that might protect her too.

You could say that they were already protecting her from it somehow, but don't you think that's a lot of assumptions compared to just saying the Metroid Prime mass is either a mistake or somehow doesn't affect gravity? To me accepting it without further proof feels like accepting a Magnitude 20 earthquake statement.
Be more specific to which ones exactly, I could probably grab the scans for you. (Actually speaking of Samus and Joey, there's a bunch of bit feats in that as well which kinda further enforce low ends not being legit, like Samus tanking a continent size nuclear explosion without a scratch while emerging from the center of the explosion, her ship too).
I don't really know, DDM mentioned them tho.
 
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Armorchompy

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Actually, another "anti-feat" for the gravity is indeed, "the gravitational field of a micro black hole", which overpowers Zebes' gravity and breaks its shield, beginning to suck stuff in. Considering Zebes' mass is comparable to actual, non-micro black holes, this makes no sense if we work under the assumption that its gravity is at those levels. It was even said this black hole would swallow the planet.

AFTER the shield is broken, these "Kreatz" and "Mauk" guys, whose species didn't evolve on Zebes, can also stand on it just fine in chapter 6. This is before the Chozo even realize they're here, mind you.

Samus is once again on Zebes without protection, before even meeting with the Chozo again, when she confronts Ridley as a kid in Volume 2, Chapter 10, Page 5

If we are to assume the Chozo cancel the extra gravity of the area they're in even AFTER the shield that supposedly did so, then any calculation that uses the 960x gravity in that area is worthless, which might extend to all of them, and certainly extends to RIdley's "mountain destruction" feat, since it was done in that area.
 
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Samus just can't annihilate everything on screen, otherwise there wouldn't be a game to play in the first place?

Uh, yeah, that goes for literally every single game ever, it's not just a Metroid thing, you don't see Link cutting down wooden doors, Mario breaking through walls and pipes, Pokemon cutting down tiny ass trees, and so on because that's not how games work. There's a thing for this, it's called gameplay segregation.

Again, I have something to say about that later.

i mean go ahead, but it better be worth while.

The SA-X needs a Super Missile to destroy that hatch, which is a grey one and is at the lowest security level, and it may even not be active in that moment (it doesn't glow, but that may be a game development problem).

Yes and? The weapon it used wasn't the point, the point was outside of gameplay Samus can easily destroy everything in her way without any issue because we see the SA-X do it all through the game, even when Samus gets the same weapons and becomes stronger then the SA-X, that issue still exists, because gameplay dude. Point is she completely fucked it, the security levels don't change the material the doors are made of dude, it's literally just the existence of it a door is locked or not, that is all the security levels do, it's just clearance and unlocking the doors. And that was one example, there's a multitude of examples in the game, you know how many times you come across the SA-X's trails of destruction? Doors and locks completely blown out, entire ROOMS leveled and destroyed.
The SA-X using Samus' own equipment has destroyed doors, gates, locks, entire gameplay portions that result in the level layout being changed, and you're going to argue that Samus can't actually do that even though we literally see in the same game that she can when unhindered? And that doesn't even just go for the SA-X, the security droid and Nightmare do the same.



It calculates it as if Samus wasn't protected by the spaceship itself, there's a lotta issue with that. Besides, even if it was fine, it should be moved to an on-site blog and properly evaluated.

That may not even be a issue, pretty sure Samus scales to her ship, hell she might even scale above it depending on which ship and the timeframe.
True, I'll give you that.

Any actual reason it should scale to her other weaponry? It's not like it draws from a magic source, for all we know her freezing tech is way better than anything else.

Pretty sure there is, I'd have to look though (it's not like I have metroid scans or anything saved, not really my main thing on the wiki as you probably know, probably best to ask DDM on that one). And uh, magic source? You'd be surprised as to what exists in Metroid (magic is one such thing). And no, her ice beam is explicitly not anywhere close to her best weapon, Plasma beam is always >>> Ice Beam to give an idea, and even Plasma aint her best, except against Metroids who are weak to cold of any kind. Ice Beam is just considered one step above her basic weapons for the most part.

I mean, they say she won't survive Zebes' harsh environment, I think if the gravity was lethal they'd outright mention that instead. But no, in the very first few pages of the second chapter you can straight-up see her standing outside of any particular places, and without any weird clothing too.

Why would they? They don't mention a lot of things like the acid, windstorms, toxic environment, ridiculous temperature spikes, etc. It's dangerous outside of Crateria and Torian, that's what we're told, and it's not wrong.
Yes, you do see her standing straight up without any protection, but that's still within the chozo domain? (Pretty sure it's the ruins actually). Also see below on your point, they have a huge forcefield that can briefly hold up against a black hole. As long as Samus is within Crateria or Tourian, point remains, nothing is actually questionable here, it'd only bring a issue if she was anywhere else.

You could say that they were already protecting her from it somehow, but don't you think that's a lot of assumptions compared to just saying the Metroid Prime mass is either a mistake or somehow doesn't affect gravity? To me accepting it without further proof feels like accepting a Magnitude 20 earthquake statement.

Not really. We know a few things for certain, Samus couldn't survive outside of the Chozo designated areas for a multitude of varying factors.
We know the chozo are quite capable of creating tech that also negates the effects of harsh gravity and they do it often.
And we also know for a fact that they have a giant forcefield that can withstand black hole tier gravity for some time.
Honestly, the only assumption that needs to be made is that one the few dozen things that Crateria and Tourian is protected against is the gravity, which we know they can and have easily done before and given we know they're protected from all outside forces more or less, why wouldnt gravity be apart of those?
This only works if you're under the notion that Zebes doesnt have high gravity to begin with, but if we're to believe it does, then by default, that place is protected against it as that would just be one of the many things that gets told to fuck off within those areas.

And as for it being a mistake, I'll be real with you, I thought that once too, fuck ask DDM, pretty sure I brought it up to him a long time ago as well given it does sound kinda ridiculous, but looking at what we're told pointblank.

We're told Zebes is a hyperdense planet (so it being super dense due to the mass is the point and not an oversight, even if it's black hole dense, it doesn't matter, that's the intention).
Zebes has always been given higher gravity in every outside material (not to this extent obviously, but it's clearly intended to have high gravity, Retro just went a overboard, but it being insane doesnt make it wrong).
And as for it being a mistake? That's actually something that's basically confirmed to not be the case, Metroid Prime was gone through two completely different versions, the original Prime and the PAL/Trilogy version had almost the entire game's logs and data entries and lore completely overhauled and redone, yet out of everything, Zebes' stats were untouched, even though 99% of the game was completely rewritten, put simply, it was intentional and they kept it like that on purpose.

Zebes' shield with "the gravitational field of a micro black hole", which easily also overpowers Zebes' gravity, beginning to suck stuff in. Considering Zebes' mass is comparable to actual, non-micro black holes, this makes no sense if we work under the assumption that its gravity is at those levels. It was even said this black hole would swallow the planet.

You're confusing mass with gravity, 960g while tough aint shit compared to an actual black hole the size of a country. Of course a black hole swallow the planet, it could be 10,000g and the black hole would still do that.

These "Kreatz" and "Mauk" guys, whose species didn't evolve on Zebes, can also stand on it just fine in chapter 6. This is before the Chozo even realize they're here, mind you.

And? They aren't exactly human and we know they're superhuman. This isn't an actual point unless we know exactly how strong they are, they'd just scale is all. Chozo didn't evolve on Zebes either, they're just ridiculously superhuman.

Samus is once again on Zebes without protection, before even meeting with the Chozo again, when she confronts Ridley as a kid in Volume 2, Chapter 10, Page 5

But that's literally wrong though? I'm like 99% sure that's Samus' home colony.
 

Armorchompy

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That may not even be a issue, pretty sure Samus scales to her ship, hell she might even scale above it depending on which ship and the timeframe.
True, I'll give you that.
She scales above it in her suit, but this is for Zero Suit Samus.
Pretty sure there is, I'd have to look though (it's not like I have metroid scans or anything saved, not really my main thing on the wiki as you probably know, probably best to ask DDM on that one). And uh, magic source? You'd be surprised as to what exists in Metroid (magic is one such thing). And no, her ice beam is explicitly not anywhere close to her best weapon, Plasma beam is always >>> Ice Beam to give an idea, and even Plasma aint her best, except against Metroids who are weak to cold of any kind. Ice Beam is just considered one step above her basic weapons for the most part.
I know magic exists, I've played most of the games, but again, resistance to freezing isn't the same as resistance to physical damage- maybe people in Metroid just have naturally high ice resist, what do I know.
I understand your point but this is a lot of assumptions compared to "the MP writers and rewriters didn't quite understand how much mass that is". Let's compare the amount of assumptions you have to make one way or the other.

If Zebes does not have 960x gravity:

1) The Metroid Prime writers and rewriters made an oopsie.

2) Probably something else idk


If it does:

1) All the other sources stating a completely different mass for Zebes are wrong/retconned

2) Both the Chozo, even elderly ones, and whatever the fuck Samus' friends were have Class 100 LS despite their species not evolving for it.

3) The Chozo protected an environment that evolved in that gravity from that gravity, without any ecological repercussions (And this is very important because the Chozo care a lot about keeping the balance of their ecosystem).

4) This protection was unrelated to the forcefield that the space pirates destroyed.

5) The planet does not turn into a star for unexplained reasons.

6) Overall, gravity appears to behave normally on it with absolutely no exceptions.


No offense but to me this feels like saying "The feat is legit, the planet they're on is just really tough" to a 20-something magnitude earthquake statement
 
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She scales above it in her suit, but this is for Zero Suit Samus.

Actually, I was thinking there may be a way to scale her. ZSS can take hits from Pirates right?

I know magic exists, I've played most of the games, but again, resistance to freezing isn't the same as resistance to physical damage- maybe people in Metroid just have naturally high ice resist, what do I know.

Actually, I dont think many do have a high resistance except maybe a few bosses, but that could be gameplay.

I understand your point but this is a lot of assumptions compared to "the MP writers and rewriters didn't quite understand how much mass that is". Let's compare the amount of assumptions you have to make one way or the other.

It isn't a lot of assumptions, it's only a single assumption, and that assumption is that Crateria and Torian are protected against the gravity like they are from every other environmental hazard. It's only a single assumption being made, and that assumption is less of an assumption really. It's more like, if they're procted from outside forces, why would it also protect them against the gravity? Because we know damn well that the chozo can do it so it's not even a matter of if they can but rather if gravity is just apart of the long list of things they're protected against.

They do understand how much mass it is though, it's literally why it's called a superdense planet.

The Metroid Prime writers and rewriters made an oopsie.

No they clearly knew what they were doing, you don't give a planet a super huge fuck off amount of mass and go "it's also a hyperdense planet" and not know you're making a hyperdense planet with an insane mass. And then proceed to keep it that way but change everything else in the game.

>All the other sources stating a completely different mass for Zebes are wrong.

They quite literally are though, and even then, those other sources still say it has higher gravity then earth. But the ONLY time in canon it;'s given a mass, is in Prime, there is no "other sources" in canon, it's Prime, and it's been purposely kept in.

Both the Chozo and whatever the fuck Samus' friends were have Class 100 LS despite not evolving for it.

The Chozo are explicitly vastly superhuman so that's a moot point. And, yeah, they would, if they could withstand then it then they would, though if they were in Crateria or Tourian, well see above.

The Chozo protected an environment that evolved in that gravity from that gravity, without any ecological repercussions (And this is very important because the Chozo care a lot about keeping the balance of their ecosystem).

Yes, they did, but only in the places they primarily preoccupy, and this isn't even a gravity thing, they protected those locations from everything to make it a suitable living place for them and potential visitors like the Federation if memory serves. Completely removing a places toxicity or super fucking up weather cycles would impact the ecosystem in the locale too, they did it anyway. This isn't even an assumption or counter point because they LITERALLY changed the ecosystem there regardless of the gravity.

This protection was unrelated to the forcefield that the space pirates destroyed.

Are you implying that the protection WAS related? Because if you are, that's basically confirmation if the Chozo set up a huge forcefield that needs a literal blackhole to get past being somehow connected to the protection on Crateria and Torian.

The planet does not turn into a black hole for unexplained reasons.

Welcome to fiction, this isnt a real argument and I could give you a list of planets in sci-fi that should be black holes or collapsed under their own weight and became a neutron star but simply havent. And the worst part of this point is, the gravity doesnt even matter to this point.
The only thing that matters is the size and mass, not the gravity, and the size and mass is 100% undeniable, there's zero assumptions in regards to that, we're told multiple times how much zebes weighs and the size.
It being a black hole has nothing to do with gravity but the explicit statistics we're given, and those stats? Aren't assumptions, fan calcs, or whatever, it's 100% canon and explicitly purposeful information to the point they even say it's a superdense core'd planet for it's size. As in, Retro knew they were making a stupid dense planet, and they wanted it to be like that, kept it like that, and even said it was superdense.

Overall, gravity appears to behave normally on it with absolutely no exceptions.

I mean it probably would if you were a superhuman who can leap thousands of feet, toss around animals weighing hundreds of tons, rip and grapple with robots, physically have the strength to rip through super durable metal and mechas and more.

No offense but to me this feels like saying "The feat is legit, the planet they're on is just really tough" to a 20-something magnitude earthquake statement

It literally is though? It's outright stated to be a superdense planet, your whole issue of "it's way to dense and it doesnt make sense" is literally the point, Retro wanted it to be a superdense planet with an insane mass. You may not like it but it's something they did on purpose and knowing full well it was ridiculously dense, now did they know it was black hole tier dense? Maybe not, but they still were making an effort to make it as dense as possible.

So as said, the only assumption being made is that the birds that can fuck with gravity and outright negate it has their main locales protected from that just like they have it protected everything else.
Everything else isnt a counter or an assumption, it's just the way it is.
 
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Armorchompy

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Actually, I was thinking there may be a way to scale her. ZSS can take hits from Pirates right?
I mean, the ship was destroyed by that impact, so she wouldn't scale to it anyway.
It isn't a lot of assumptions, it's only a single assumption, and that assumption is that Crateria and Torian are protected against the gravity like they are from every other environmental hazard. It's only a single assumption being made, and that assumption is less of an assumption really. It's more like, if they're procted from outside forces, why would it also protect them against the gravity? Because we know damn well that the chozo can do it so it's not even a matter of if they can but rather if gravity is just apart of the long list of things they're protected against.

They do understand how much mass it is though, it's literally why it's called a superdense planet.

No they clearly knew what they were doing, you don't give a planet a super huge fuck off amount of mass and go "it's also a hyperdense planet" and not know you're making a hyperdense planet with an insane mass. And then proceed to keep it that way but change everything else in the game.
I understand that, but them saying it's dense doesn't mean they realized what gravity it would have.
Yes, they did, but only in the places they primarily preoccupy, and this isn't even a gravity thing, they protected those locations from everything to make it a suitable living place for them and potential visitors like the Federation if memory serves. Completely removing a places toxicity or super fucking up weather cycles would impact the ecosystem in the locale too, they did it anyway. This isn't even an assumption or counter point because they LITERALLY changed the ecosystem there regardless of the gravity.
But the lifeforms in Zebes seem to have adacted to it perfectly.
Welcome to fiction, this isnt a real argument and I could give you a list of planets in sci-fi that should be black holes or collapsed under their own weight and became a neutron star but simply havent.
??? It's a mistake anyway, and one unaddressed. The fact that it's common (except it really isn't, I'd love to see that list) doesn't change that. So, two assumptions versus one.

Besides, if we accept that Zebes' mass does not turn it into a star, then we've accepted that it does not function as it would in real life, so why are we so sure that it affects gravity so directly?

Finally, if indeed the gravity is 960x and the Chozo just protected a specific area from it, then the Ridley feat would have to be trashed, as it happened in that area. Hell, for all we know Zero Mission takes place there too, it's not like Mother Brain had any reason to move.
 
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I can't talk about Mario or Zelda yet, so that thread will have to continue waiting.
The SA-X doesn't cause destructions all the time, and when it does, it needs Power Bombs, as I said before, or Super Missiles, which does matter.
Also, security levels aren't just a game mechanic.
Joy.

It does, we literally see the aftermath of it destroying things, we go through entire rooms that have been leveled and destroyed. Yet here you are trying to say that Samus wouldnt be able to do the same, even though an exact copy of her does so, even in the same game. And I should also mention that Benzdium is one of the most used materials throughout the galaxy, and it's considered nigh-indestructible, and SA-X, the BOX and more can rip through it despite being weaker then Samus, yet Samus can't, why? Because that's not how video games work. When Samus uses a missile of any kind the door or room she's in doesnt instantly fall apart, even though we see the SA-X do literally that.

Power Bombs are weak though? Samus can canonically tank them and in her normal state they're incapable of even harming her?

I never said they weren't a gameplay mechanic, they obviously exist, they just arent shit and wouldnt stop Samus if she wanted to break past them outside of gameplay because all they are are locks.
 

Armorchompy

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I mean it probably would if you were a superhuman who can leap thousands of feet, toss around animals weighing hundreds of tons, rip and grapple with robots, physically have the strength to rip through super durable metal and mechas and more.
Also, what I meant by that is, flowers and plants grow normally, missiles aren't affected by it, stuff falls at a normal pace including Samus when she jumps, water lowers the gravity so much it makes it hard to move (but that would have no effect if the gravity was so high), and other stuff like that.
 
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I mean, the ship was destroyed by that impact, so she wouldn't scale to it anyway.

Actually, if it was destroyed, and she was inside it, that would actually lead to some scaling of some degree, we'd just need to work out the formula. (Also given how durable these ships can be, it being destroyed actually implies high gravity).

I understand that, but them saying it's dense doesn't mean they realized what gravity it would have.

So? They may not have figured out the exact value, but what they did know was that they were making a stupid dense planet on purpose, and if it's like every other person who had a shot at making zebes stats, they wanted it to have some degree of high gravity. How much? Doesn;t matter, we can figure it out, and it's 960g. That's what it comes out to so that's what it is. And your counterarguments only work if zebes had normal gravity fyi, even if it's as high as simply 2g, the whole samus wasnt protected against gravity point would say no to that, and when we know, at the very least, Zebes by all intents and purposes IS supposed to have at least some degree of high gravity, well, at that point the only other logical conclusion is that Samus was protected because even 2 or 3g would fuck up a small child.

But the lifeforms in Zebes seem to have adacted to it perfectly.

Yes, they did. You're acting like if gravity was changed it would fuck up the lifeforms while ignoring that we already know for a fact basically everything else was fucked up too. If a lifeform is adapted to acid rains and deadly toxins and suddenly those go away, it'll fuck up the animals that adapted to it too, and yet the animals are dealing with that fine as well.

??? It's a mistake anyway, and one unaddressed. The fact that it's common (except it really isn't, I'd love to see that list) doesn't change that. So, two assumptions versus one.

Apocalypse for starters.
Not an assumption, do you know what an assumption is? Quite frankly I don't give a fuck why it isnt a black hole, point is it isnt one, and it being a black hole has absolutely nothing to do with gravity so it's completely irrelevant, it has everything to do with the mass, and like it or not, that's Zebes, canonical mass and it's been stated to be that multiple times over

Besides, if we accept that Zebes' mass does not turn it into a star, then we've accepted that it does not function as it would in real life, so why are we so sure that it affects gravity so directly?

Dude, that's a personal issue, like it or not, Zebes is a hyperdense planet with an easily calculatable gravity, we're given the size, we're told it's mass, the size and mass were done on purpose for it to be dense, it was purposely kept in in all rewrites and rereleases.
Better yet, why do you keep saying Zebes would turn into a star or black hole? Have you even calculated that or are you just assuming?

Finally, if indeed the gravity is 960x and the Chozo just protected a specific area from it, then the Ridley feat would have to be trashed, as it happened in that area. Hell, for all we know Zero Mission takes place there too, it's not like Mother Brain had any reason to move.

Zero Mission takes place all over the planet, and what do you mean "for all we know it could have taken place there too", dude we literally are given the names of all the locations of the areas in every single game Zebes takes place upon, like, Norfair for example sure as hell aint protected, or Maridia. dude quite frankyly i don't give a damn about the Ridley feat, that isn't even relevant to this topic is it not? We're talking about the gravity being legit, not if the Ridley feat is legit, the fact you bring that up is kinda sus.
 
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Also, what I meant by that is, flowers and plants grow normally, missiles aren't affected by it, stuff falls at a normal pace including Samus when she jumps, water lowers the gravity so much it makes it hard to move (but that would have no effect if the gravity was so high), and other stuff like that.
Flowers and plants only grow in Brinstar though? (Also i dont think this even matters given how many times it's been stated Zebes is completely unlivable by almost all forms of life except the most adaptable and intense organisms).
Missiles not being effected matter why? The only time I recall that missiles were effected was the Federation's missiles against Nightmare. Could be forgetting Other M though because I havent touched that since launch.
Water would still hinder movement though, the water would weigh 960x more as well, everything would have it's effective weight increased.
 
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Goddamn why are we even arguing this.

Is the mass and size for Zebes wrong? That's literally all that matters here, the rest is just pointless fluff.
So answer that question, are you saying that the mass and size given for Zebes is incorrect?
 

Armorchompy

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Goddamn why are we even arguing this.

Is the mass and size for Zebes wrong? That's literally all that matters here, the rest is just pointless fluff.
So answer that question, are you saying that the mass and size given for Zebes is incorrect?
It's not all that matters. What matters is if the gravity is wrong. Of course mass and size cause it IRL, but since we've already accepted that Zebes breaks away from realistic conventions about gravity by not becoming a star (which is indeed caused by gravity, as what leads to a star's creation is its own pressure compressing it to the point of a nuclear reaction), that clearly isn't the case here, at least not in as it would IRL.
 
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Armorchompy

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Zero Mission takes place all over the planet, and what do you mean "for all we know it could have taken place there too", dude we literally are given the names of all the locations of the areas in every single game Zebes takes place upon, like, Norfair for example sure as hell aint protected, or Maridia. dude quite frankyly i don't give a damn about the Ridley feat, that isn't even relevant to this topic is it not? We're talking about the gravity being legit, not if the Ridley feat is legit, the fact you bring that up is kinda sus.
I mean, if my argument is rejected, I don't want that to be forgotten. Without Zebes' gravity and the incorrect size scaling, that's like, a 9-A feat.
 
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It's not all that matters. What matters is if the gravity is wrong. Of course mass and size cause it IRL, but since we've already accepted that Zebes breaks away from realistic conventions about gravity by not becoming a star (which is indeed caused by gravity, as what leads to a star's creation is its own pressure compressing it to the point of a nuclear reaction), that clearly isn't the case here, at least not in as it would IRL.

It actually does, everything stems from the given canonical mass and size, so either it's right or it's wrong. The gravity stems from that, the gravity is 960g due to the given size and mass (among other things).
We haven't actually, that's kinda just you acting like because the planet didn't instantly turn into a black hole it means absolutely everything we know about it has to be false, that's a personal issue dude, and to make matters worse, that's not even inherently true, as said above, are you even certain that Zebes is dense enough for it collapse into a black hole? especially when Zebes is composed of a magic space metal material we're told is almost indestructible? Because mind you, Zebes isn't made of things like stone and the like or normal materials, it's just as durable as it is dense, the planet's crust is almost entirely composed of urthic ore and the stones on the planet are of a special type that make it a fortress.
this is another factor you're falling to consider, Zebes isn't composed or made like a normal IRL planet, it's composed of indestructible material.
Also did you just link me an article explaining how stars come to be? This isnt middle school dude.

You've also failed to address my point about the Ridley calculation.

Failed implies I tried to begin with, I simply don';t give a shit because it has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not the gravity is legit or not, it's a completely different topic, if we were actually talking about the Ridley calc I would have responded, but we aren't and I dont feel like having to juggle two topics at once here.
 
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I mean, if my argument is rejected, I don't want that to be forgotten. Without Zebes' gravity and the incorrect size scaling, that's like, a 9-A feat.

I mean, does it even matter? I already said that feat needs to be redone anyway so it's not like the current calc is gonna stick around forever anyway.
 

Armorchompy

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It actually does, everything stems from the given canonical mass and size, so either it's right or it's wrong. The gravity stems from that, the gravity is 960g due to the given size and mass (among other things).
We haven't actually, that's kinda just you acting like because the planet didn't instantly turn into a black hole it means absolutely everything we know about it has to be false, that's a personal issue dude, and to make matters worse, that's not even inherently true, as said above, are you even certain that Zebes is dense enough for it collapse into a black hole, especially when Zebes is composed of a magic space metal material we're told is almost indestructible? Because mind you, Zebes isn't made of things like stone and the like or normal materials, it's just as durable as it is dense, the planet's crust is almost entirely composed of urthic ore and the stones on the planet are of a special type that make it a fortress.
this is another factor you're falling to consider, Zebes isn't composed or made like a normal IRL planet, it's composed of indestructible material.
Also did you just link me an article explaining how stars come to be? This isnt middle school dude.
I got a thousand issues but Metroid ain't one. Zebes being super durable is just as much of an assumption as gravity not applying normally to it. Besides, considering, again, nuclear reaction, it would have to be super-durable on that scale, which is an even bigger assumption.
I mean, does it even matter? I already said that feat needs to be redone anyway so it's not like the current calc is gonna stick around forever anyway.
Didn't want ya to waste your time recalculating it with the extra gravity, just wanted to get that out there.
 
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Zebes being super durable is just as much of an assumption as gravity not applying normally to it. Besides, considering, again, nuclear reaction, it would have to be super-durable on that scale, which is an even bigger assumption.

It literally isn't an assumption though? Like 85% of the planet is composed of urthic ore and is enriched with bendzium, a material stated to be basically indestructible that has a ludicrous heat resistance and stable atomic structure. Aka, a super durable magic scifi metal is what Zebes is primarily composed of.
This isn't an assumption, this is actual canon information. At this point it just feels like you're saying everything is an assumption even when by definition it isn't.

Didn't want ya to waste your time recalculating it with the extra gravity, just wanted to get that out there.

I mean, if the gravity is legit I'm going to do so. And the only real argument you have is that realistically the sci-fi planet made out of super metal should be a black hole and not a planet. Everything else? Is easily explained with "hey the place that's protected from hazards and detrimental effects could also just protect from the intense gravity as well like it does everything else" that's a single assumption, and a reasonable one at that given the Chozo. The other points are just arguments out of disbelief that characters can't be strong if they didn't evolve for that type of gravity, in the verse where we have HUMANS who can tank nukes without aid (and I'm not talking about Samus), fight against Samus and are bordering on top tiers of the verse or super bird aliens or whatever the fuck some of the prime hunters are.
 

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It literally isn't an assumption though? Like 85% of the planet is composed of urthic ore and is enriched with bendzium, a material stated to be basically indestructible that has a ludicrous heat resistance and stable atomic structure. Aka, a super durable magic scifi metal is what Zebes is primarily composed of.
This isn't an assumption, this is actual canon information. At this point it just feels like you're saying everything is an assumption even when by definition it isn't.
Fair enough.
I mean, if the gravity is legit I'm going to do so. And the only real argument you have is that realistically the sci-fi planet made out of super metal should be a black hole and not a planet. Everything else? Is easily explained with "hey the place that's protected from hazards and detrimental effects could also just protect from the intense gravity as well like it does everything else" that's a single assumption, and a reasonable one at that given the Chozo. The other points are just arguments out of disbelief that characters can't be strong if they didn't evolve for that type of gravity, in the verse where we have HUMANS who can tank nukes without aid (and I'm not talking about Samus), fight against Samus and are bordering on top tiers of the verse or super bird aliens or whatever the fuck some of the prime hunters are.
I was saying the gravity wouldn't apply to that feat because it happens in the area that the Chozo were protecting with their gravity reducer or whatever.
 
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It may cause as many destructions as you say, but it still needs its most powerful weapons for that, and Samus can't do the same while she's weaker than it.
How do we know that hatch is made of Bendezium? And even if it is, Samus still explores the BOX's area while she's not equipped with Power Bombs yet.
Again, the SA-X doesn't use regular Missiles for those destructions.
Her being able to tank them means her durability is higher than her destructive capacity.
Then please explain the statements in my last link.
 
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I was saying the gravity wouldn't apply to that feat because it happens in the area that the Chozo were protecting with their gravity reducer or whatever.

That's possibly fair, though if the micro blackhole fucked things up idk man. But worse case scenario, is there anything else to scale them off? There's the nuclear blast in Joey I think that Varia tanked without a scratch, that nuclear blast is easily tier 6, there's also Greed, another member of Ridley's species who Ridley should be comparable, if not even stronger then.
 

Armorchompy

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That's possibly fair, though if the micro blackhole fucked things up idk man. But worse case scenario, is there anything else to scale them off? There's the nuclear blast in Joey I think that Varia tanked without a scratch, that nuclear blast is easily tier 6, there's also Greed, another member of Ridley's species who Ridley should be comparable, if not even stronger then.
I'm not really sure, honestly. I know the games, but I haven't even glanced at S&J. I don't think it's fair to say the micro black hole damaged that without any statements tho
 
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It may cause as many destructions as you say, but it still needs its most powerful weapons for that, and Samus can't do the same while she's weaker than it.

She can't even do it WHILE STRONGER then it, is that not a red flag to you? That while unrestricted by gameplay, Samus' own equipment can casually tear through doors, locks, entire rooms and stages? But when Samus gets those same tech, she isn't literally melting doors or blowing up the rooms and stuff?

How do we know that hatch is made of Bendezium? And even if it is, Samus still explores the BOX's area while she's not equipped with Power Bombs yet.

Because it's one of the most popular building materials in the galaxy, as stated by the Galactic Federation themselves. A state of the art high tech high security lab station is gonna be made of the good shit my dude, Bendezium for them is like normal steel for us, in fact, do they even have normal steel?
Wasn't the point, my point was even a random security droid can rip through and destroy everything in it's path, and it has nothing on Samus in any category.

Again, the SA-X doesn't use regular Missiles for those destructions.

And? That's a moot point. The fact it can with any weapon but Samus can't even while using the same weapon should tip you off that maybe just maybe the reason why Samus isnt annihilating everything in her path is due to gameplay and game limitation.

Her being able to tank them means her durability is higher than her destructive capacity.

And characters like Dark Samus and SA-X can harm her with beam weapons or physically. And she can harm them, put simply, Power Bombs arent exactly the top of Samus' arsenal, in fact, based on what they do to the characters, they actually one of the weakest ones. Hell in Metroid Fusion a weakened Samus can tank a SA-X powerbomb and it does like no damage yet a beam from the SA-X kills you in like one shot at that point in the game.

Then please explain the statements in my last link.

You mean the sandstone that your link goes on record to say is extremely weak and can easily be blown through by beam weapons? That doesn't help your point mate, it helps mine.
 
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I'm not really sure, honestly. I know the games, but I haven't even glanced at S&J. I don't think it's fair to say the micro black hole damaged that without any statements tho
I think I got some pixel scaling for the explosion at least, I'll see if I still have it.
 
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hJ7U5UC.jpg


Eh, it's at a bit of an angle and the curvature looks a bit off, but for a rough approximation this could be worth looking into. 'Best part is it's a nuclear blast so we don't need to divide the result and Samus explicitly arose from the center of the blast, even with inverse square law, she was at best a few meters away from the bomb too.
 

DarkDragonMedeus

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I don't have time to go over this; I have work in less than 30 minutes and over 30 notifications. But all I can say atm is that Chariot is making a lot more sense here.
 
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I don't have time to go over this; I have work in less than 30 minutes and over 30 notifications. But all I can say atm is that Chariot is making a lot more sense here.
Honestly, basically all that's happened since you left is talk of if the gravity on Zebes is legit. That's the only thing really that's been talked about. You could probably skim it quickly after work and get a pretty good idea.

Except maybe the Ridley feat but eh, chances are the alternative feats are just as good if not better so it may turn out to be a surprise upgrade. No promises though, inverse square law is a bitch but it shouldnt be to bad given how close Samus was to the bomb.
 

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It was also brought up that the ZSS fall feat should be put in a blog and properly evaluated, especially since I find it kinda questionably calced.
 

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Yeah, we should use the canon info literally given in the main games + two remakes that fixed translations and still didn't change it a single bit over a fabricated source made by a vandalizer. Zero Suit Samus fall could use a recalculation, but I'm sure it would be an upgrade given how explosions work in high gravity environments.
 
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Honestly, we could probably just scale ZS to Space Pirates (who actually have some decent scaling behind them, she'd be weaker, but being weaker then a pirate may not even be a downgrade).
Alternatively, we could possibly scale her to a Chozo, that one is a bit iffy, but she's been enhanced to be on par with one right? She's basically half bird.
 

DarkDragonMedeus

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I recall J-Man did make some striking strength calculations that Zero Suit Samus would be Low 7-C at minimum.
 
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I recall J-Man did make some striking strength calculations that Zero Suit Samus would be Low 7-C at minimum.
I typed Metroid into the wiki search and sorted by blogs, couldnt find any ZSS calc by that dude (there was a calc for Ridley though and a pretty ehhhh attempt at the nuke).
t̶h̶o̶u̶g̶h̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶r̶e̶'̶s̶ ̶a̶ ̶f̶e̶w̶ ̶j̶o̶j̶o̶ ̶f̶e̶a̶t̶s̶ ̶i̶ ̶m̶a̶y̶ ̶h̶a̶v̶e̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶s̶t̶e̶a̶l̶ ̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶r̶e̶d̶o̶

Couldnt find anything on ZS though, except the gunship crash.
 
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1) Then that's a canon GM while she's not stronger than it but a non-canon one after she surpasses it near the end, because of technical limitations or devs' laziness.
2) That "random security droid" is a boss-level character, and again, Samus isn't equipped with Power Bombs yet when she explores its area.
3) See point 1 again.
4) That depends on her suit's properties, just like surface materials are tougher against certain weapons than against others depending on their properties as stated in their official data; and as for the SA-X's beams, I guess you don't mean its Ice Beam as she's weak against it in that adventure because of the vaccine.
5) I mean this link, which mentions what the SA-X can't do without hatch activation; and how does the sandstone reference help your point?
 
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1) Then that's a canon GM while she's not stronger than it but a non-canon one after she surpasses it near the end, because of technical limitations or devs' laziness.

Dude that was just one example, I can bring up many more, fuck even sticking to Fusion, there's multiple enemies that can rip apart stages and rooms and the like, and Samus beats them nowhere near end game. And I don't think you realize, but I'm talking in general, SA-X is shown casually annihilating doors, tearing apart rooms, changing the game's geography, yet Super Metroid Samus can't just blow the fuck out of every door she sees even though the SA-X is literally Super Metroid Samus. Do you not think that maybe Samus blowing the fuck out of every door, wall and puzzle is because of gameplay and not because she can't do it if she wanted to when we outright SEE that her powers CAN do that when not bound to the gameplay.
And dev's laziness? I hope you're joking, are you actually asking for every single square tile of the game to be destructible and to be able to just vaporize a path into the final boss? If so, please never make a video game.

That "random security droid" is a boss-level character, and again, Samus isn't equipped with Power Bombs yet when she explores its area.

And? That boss level character ran from Samus because it was getting its ass kicked, it's a boss but in context it's nothing special, and yet when it runs away it does so by ripping a hole through the room and collapsing a bunch of shit. And Samus>>>That thing. Third law applies too.

3) See point 1 again.

i did, and as I said, even when Samus has the exact same weapons' she can't do that because if she did that would be fucking stupid and braindead and would make for a broken game. I said it before and I'll say it again, gameplay segregation, look it up on Tv tropes or something if you must. Don't confuse game design and gameplay limitations for actual canonical statistics or capabilities, it's shit like that which leads to Rattata being able to >>> Arceus or Goomba being able to kill Mario.

4) That depends on her suit's properties, just like surface materials are tougher against certain weapons than against others depending on their properties as stated in their official data; and as for the SA-X's beams, I guess you don't mean its Ice Beam as she's weak against it in that adventure because of the vaccine.

Uh, you do realize that there's not a single suit she has which hyper specific properties like that? Samus can tank a power bomb at her weakest in a broken ass suit, in fact, arguably her weakest. And yet characters like Dark, Ridley and more can physically beat the shit out of drastically higher suits. And none of Samus' suit have any special resistance that would explain that way, usually the suit's resistances are things like heat resistance or resistance to some hazard.
That beam has a freezing effect, but it's a stacked beam, and that's without getting into the fact that even after she gets varia, the plasma/wave facet of the beam is still strong as all fuck.

5) I mean this link, which mentions what the SA-X can't do without hatch activation; and how does the sandstone reference help your point?

You mean the link that doesn't actually say she couldnt do it without the security locks being unrestricted and is shown to be demonstrably false at multiple points in the game. All that link says is that by releasing the lock the SA-X invaded the water sector. I hope to god you aren't trying to argue that SA-X can't rip apart locks, doors, rooms and the like when all throughout the game we see the aftermath of it's trail. Even destroying pathways and the like. Because sandstone is outright stated to be an incredibly weak substance that can be blown the fuck out in verse and lore, are you going to argue because Samus can't blow down a sandstone wall in game because of course she wouldnt be able to why would they program and implement a super advance destruction system in a action platformer metroidvania game, to mean that she cant actually destroy that stuff when in the same game in logs we're told she can?


I'm going to be blunt here, but you need to learn the difference between gameplay and lore. You've said nothing regarding this topic that isn't demonstrably proven false in cutscscenes or statements or basic ass scaling.
 

SomebodyData

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I will say, in regards to Zebes' gravity, that the pros supporting the Prime rating heavily outweigh any counterargument:
  1. Metroid Prime's scans have been changed a total of twice after its initial release (PAL, ETSC, & Trilogy ETSC) with the outright removal of entire entries, but the mass and size of Zebes remains untouched and consistent with Tallon IV as well.
  2. Ape Inc's guide is lit. just the Japanese version of Scholastic's non-canon Pokemon guides.
  3. Most of what Ape Inc stated has been completely non-canon, such as Samus being a newhalf or being an outlaw bounty hunter.
    1. Even if it was canon, almost everything pre-Prime era was heavily retconned. Such as Deathstar Zebeth, Dark Samus-esque Space Pirates, a heavily altered version of Samus' backstory, & etc.
  4. Retro has already also described Zebes as a Superdense Planet, contradicting Ape Inc.'s supposed gravity.
  5. Similarly, Zebes' extreme gravity is reflected by its extremely wack solar system where planet-encompassing meteors create a meteor belt unable to form planets on their own. To give you a comparison, the asteroid belt in our system can't form into a planet due to Jupiter's gravity interfering, but these meteors individually pale in size to what's shown in Metroid.
  6. Finally, perhaps the ultimate issue here, is that the supposed gravity page that Ape Inc. produced doesn't exist. All translations have found this to have never been mentioned, with a large probability of this being a fan-made rumor after someone conveniently added it without a source to the Metroid wiki after the original debate.
 
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Armorchompy

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Well, I'm mostly convinced overall. That said, some of the calcs should still be looked at.
 
Wall of text
1) Materials can be damaged by different attacks depending on their properties, Super Metroid Samus isn’t SA-X-level until near that game’s end, what we see is the SA-X needing its strongest weapons to cause destructions, and your response to the devs’ laziness argument (and the argument itself) ignores that she can’t destroy tough surfaces if they’re not weakened even after surpassing her mimicker.
2) Then the BOX has attacks taking advantage of those materials’ properties.
3) And I’ll repeat what I should’ve said rather than using the technical limitations and devs’ laziness arguments, but in other words: The SA-X can only destroy weakened surfaces (see the Power Bomb icons) and Samus has that limit too even after surpassing it.
4) I mean molecular or atomic properties, not hyper specific ones.
5a) The SA-X being able to cross blue hatches after their lock was released means it can’t destroy hatches tougher than those it needs Super Missiles against and Samus can’t either.
5b) The sandstone surfaces she can destroy are weakened ones (see the official data).
I’m going to be blunt too: Game mechanics seem to establish the lore as well as story elements do.
 
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Materials can be damaged by different attacks depending on their properties, Super Metroid Samus isn’t SA-X-level until near that game’s end, what we see is the SA-X needing its strongest weapons to cause destructions, and your response to the devs’ laziness argument (and the argument itself) ignores that she can’t destroy tough surfaces if they’re not weakened even after surpassing her mimicker.

Have you ever played any of these games before? SA-X, in your own words, uses super missiles and power bombs to cause that destruction, is that not what you said? Because in case you forgot, you get super missiles within the first 15 minutes of Super Metroid and power bombs within the first hour, they're early game items. So you saying "well it was late game" is completely and objectively false.
And yet her mimicker and like a dozen of other characters have shown time and time again they literally don't give a fuck and will blow out entire rooms if need be, and they're all explicitly weaker then Samus. Do you actually hear yourself? You realize you're wasting everyone's time with this argument right? Whether or not you like it or not, Samus' weapons has been shown time and time again multiple times over to be capable of ripping through the game outside of gameplay, you're trying to say "well Samus can't just vaporize everything in her path including the maps and doors and walls means she canonically can't" is one of the biggest lies and blatant dishonesty I've seen on this site. Do you not know how video games are made? There's a difference between Samus being unable to shoot through a wall in gameplay and her being outright confirmed to be able to do so in lore, learn the difference and learn it now. Again, no, that isn't me ignoring anything, it's called basically level design, I can even point out times where said material is explicitly stated to be reinforced and she can blow up those objects, yet not the basic level geometry, even though the basic stone wall is going to obviously be less durable then the super reinforced metal capsule. like I'm honestly baffled here, do you think implementing a advanced total environmental destruction into fucking 16 bit games is easy? Or even the Prime games? Let alone the fact these games aren't meant to be those types of games. Do you complain about characters taking turns in RPG's too and act like they HAVE to take turns canonically as well because that's how it works in gameplay?

Then the BOX has attacks taking advantage of those materials’ properties.

Except that's wrong and you know it, all it does is physically smash through it like wet tissue, there is no special attack, it basically just rams and tears through the material as is. And Samus is stronger then it. Fuck, the omega Metroid can also rip through the station like butter, and Samus has been shown to physically grapple and overpower them with her fists in other games.

And I’ll repeat what I should’ve said rather than using the technical limitations and devs’ laziness arguments, but in other words: The SA-X can only destroy weakened surfaces (see the Power Bomb icons) and Samus has that limit too even after surpassing it.

Ok so you really don't know how this works then do you? No shit they have the power bomb icon, they're programed to be destroyed by them, it's an ingame indicator, outside of the gameplay and mechanics, that material is no different then anything else in that room, and weakened? I could pull a text rip of the entire game right now and I'd fail to find a statement saying those blocks were actually weakened. Like why the hell are you lying? Fuck, you realize they're programed that way because that scene takes place within gameplay and not cinematic so they had to design the scene within the limitations of the game's framework, it's like Mr.X in the original RE2, SA-X occasionally shows up in gameplay segments and you have to escape her, hence the indicators and preprogrammed destructible blocks, and thus had to make the blocks she destroyed the same type that show up elsewhere. Again, reminder, we see SA-X blow holes through the solid ship walls or level entire rooms while outside of gameplay. Hell the very first time we see SA-X she emerges from having blown a hole through the ship's wall, something that in gameplay is invincible because of course it is why wouldnt it be?

I mean molecular or atomic properties, not hyper specific ones.

Literally none of her suits have anything akin to that except the Prime suits, and that's just resisting or negating the effects of dark aether.

The SA-X being able to cross blue hatches after their lock was released means it can’t destroy hatches tougher than those it needs Super Missiles against and Samus can’t either.

No, that's literally you extrapolating that the SA-X entering a sector once it notices it was unlocked and thus went there to mean it was incapable of entering without it being unlocked (even though it had no issue entering any of the other sectors even when locked).

The sandstone surfaces she can destroy are weakened ones (see the official data).

And the official data explicitly makes mention of normal sandstone with no mention of being weakened being one of the weakest materials ever and worth nothing in regards to resilience. In the same game where Samus can destroy the galaxy's most durable metal or literally VAPORIZE heavily armored scifi organisms. Are you going to tell me a sandstone wall is somehow more durable then a giant animal or armored pirates using advanced weaponry and shielding yet get vaporized in one shot to mean that same shot not annihilating a basic wall to mean that wall is somehow more durable then the above? If your answer is yes, cease immediately.

I’m going to be blunt too: Game mechanics seem to establish the lore as well as story elements do.

Only when they're not proven explicitly false time and time again, and especially not when it's shit like "this character can destroy the game's entire geography so they aren't that strong despite having multiple feats that say they can as well as being shown capable of ripping through the environment when not bound by gameplay". This really shouldn't be difficult to comprehend, it's literally like getting mad that Superman in a game cant sash through every building in the game even though we see him do it elsewhere and in cutscenes and lore we're told and shown outright he can. This isn't a Metroid thing, this goes for every single video game in existence, I honestly can't believe I'm even debating this.
 
1) I just forgot how early Super Missiles and Power Bombs are obtained in SM as they’re Samus’s mightiest weapons, but tough surfaces still can be destroyed by them only if they’re weakened.
This also applies to her mimicker’s case, those other characters’ cases depend on materials’ properties, and when have her weapons been shown to be able trip through a game? Last, turn-based battles are a non-canon GM.
2) I mean attacks taking advantage of materials’ properties (like bombs can do what missiles can’t and viceversa), not special attacks.
3) I know those icons are only visual indicators, but they still indicate the surface is somehow weakened, and that moment occurs during gameplay but doesn’t increase or decrease challenge to be a non-canon GM.
4) They can withstand as well as undamaged surfaces can, so they have certain physical properties.
5a) “With the blue hatches active, the SA-X slipped in easily.”
5b) “Structural weakness detected in Sandstone block.”, Multiple microscopic fractures found throughout Sandstone wall section.”… Yes, her scanner tells her if an obstacle is weakened, the same applies to the galaxy’s most durable metal, and when does she vaporize heavily armored sci-fi organisms?
I know how you feel, I couldn’t believe it when I learned that some characters are argued to be mightier than normally seen.
 
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I just forgot how early Super Missiles and Power Bombs are obtained in SM as they’re Samus’s mightiest weapons, but tough surfaces still can be destroyed by them only if they’re weakened.

No, something tells me you're purposely twisting or leaving out vital information, you've already been called out on it multiple times and some points are extremely blatant. Power Bombs and Super Missiles arent Samus strongest weapons, especially Power Bombs as they're explicitly so weak that Samus can canonically withstand them at ground zero with zero damage. And again, you're making that completely up, as said, I can find examples where it's stated such material is reinforced and will be destroyed none the less? Do you simply not read?

This also applies to her mimicker’s case, those other characters’ cases depend on materials’ properties, and when have her weapons been shown to be able trip through a game? Last, turn-based battles are a non-canon GM.

Except it doesn't, stop fucking lying, those character's cases depends on the material's property? Do you need me to give you a list of every time in Fusion alone? Three of the sectors by the end of the game are almost completely torn apart by various enemies like Nightmare, BOX or SA-X. You're trying to tell me the floor and ceiling that SA-X has been shown to destroy is somehow weakened? Even though in multiple cases Samus goes through those locations and the things that end up being completely ravaged are 100% no different then the rest of the level geometry? When have they shown? Gee I don't know probably one such time being the SA-X who is shown time and time again to literally rearrange a sectors geography.

I mean attacks taking advantage of materials’ properties (like bombs can do what missiles can’t and viceversa), not special attacks.

What's the difference between the Jungle sector, Ice Sector and so on's walls then? Honestly stop making shit up it's getting annoying. There is nothing special or different about the station's walls, ceilings and so on and the examples that do get torn through like wet tissue sure as hell aren't any different then the rest of the material that makes up the same wall or room. Stop forcing your made up bullshit into things because no body is ever going to take you seriously when half of what you say is just completely made up. Hell the SA-X at one point completely ravages a giant room putting numerous holes throughout the room with a beam weapon let alone missiles and bombs so even then, and she does it onscreen.

I know those icons are only visual indicators, but they still indicate the surface is somehow weakened, and that moment occurs during gameplay but doesn’t increase or decrease challenge to be a non-canon GM.

Except they don't, I even went through a text rip of Fusion and nowhere in the game does it ever say that those materials are weakened or any different from anything else, again, it's just you assuming they are because Samus can't just vaporize a hole in any wall because it's a fucking video game.

They can withstand as well as undamaged surfaces can, so they have certain physical properties.

The fuck are you even talking about here? The only physical property here is if something is simply durable or not durable unless otherwise specified.


Yeah no shit? You're just repeating yourself now, this doesn't counter anything I said. You said nothing new so I won't either.

"No, that's literally you extrapolating that the SA-X entering a sector once it notices it was unlocked and thus went there to mean it was incapable of entering without it being unlocked (even though it had no issue entering any of the other sectors even when locked)."

"You mean the link that doesn't actually say she couldnt do it without the security locks being unrestricted and is shown to be demonstrably false at multiple points in the game. All that link says is that by releasing the lock the SA-X invaded the water sector. I hope to god you aren't trying to argue that SA-X can't rip apart locks, doors, rooms and the like when all throughout the game we see the aftermath of it's trail. Even destroying pathways and the like."

“Structural weakness detected in Sandstone block.”, Multiple microscopic fractures found throughout Sandstone wall section.”… Yes, her scanner tells her if an obstacle is weakened, the same applies to the galaxy’s most durable metal, and when does she vaporize heavily armored sci-fi organisms?

I can't tell if you missed this but even in your own link, the canonical description of sandstone says ""Sandstone is a sedimentary rock consisting usually of quartz sand held together by an adhesive agent such as calcium carbonate or silica. Sandstone stands up well to natural erosion, but it can easily be destroyed by focused energy blasts."

With zero mention of it needing to be weakened first. Does she destroy weakened ones in game? Yeah no shit. Does that mean she can't destroy non weakened sandstone? No it doesnt. How hard is this for you to comprehend? And as for the strongest metal in the universe? Same applies, made even worse because we outright do see her destroy it when completely sound without zero integral weakness or characters vastly weaker then her do the same throughout a multitude of games.
When has she done that? Have you ever played a Prime game? Certain beams can literally turn enemies into vapor and ash, including space pirates elites and shit.
Hell or the sheegoths, if hit with a strong enough beam they literally turn charcoal black, ignite and fade into thin air from the heat of the weapon yet that same weapon doesnt blow a hole in a ice wall or low melting point wall, probably because video games don't fucking work like you think they do.

I know how you feel, I couldn’t believe it when I learned that some characters are argued to be mightier than normally seen.

The only thing I can't believe is that I'm actually arguing the most basic commonsense here with you as if it was an actual controversial topic. Fucking gameplay segregation exists dude and fyi stop making shit up, you did it in the OP and now you're adding tiny bits of false information into your points as if it isn't blatantly not true to anyone who has the slightest idea of what you're talking about.
 
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Drop the stupid "video game character cant destroy the entire game so theyre weak" bullshit. It's not even a real argument and if you dont know the difference between in game limitations and lore and canon then you probably shouldnt even be debating video game characters to begin with.
 
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Should we make a new thread that isn't littered with OP's weird as fuck arguments and points so we can properly discuss possibly redoing a few feats and maybe looking into a few other feats that may even lead to upgrades or support for their current tiering?
 
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I'm surprised people are still taking OP seriously. You guys are better off with a new thread.
I'm not, at least not anymore. I heard of his past threads so I decided to look them up and holy fuck.
It honestly feels like a haha funny meme but I've yet to see him say sike.

But indeed, a new thread should probably be best, or we could just take it the discussion thread or a discord server and discuss things in one of the two and try to make some headway into fleshing things or and working towards a more accurate profile.
 

Armorchompy

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It's simply a different way to see things, incompatible with VSBW, but I wouldn't spit on it in another context.
 
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That's what I thought initially which is why I even bothered debating, but, well take a look at some of his past threads if you want, he was banned from Nintendo for a reason.
There's actual literal nonarguments like because something isn't violent certain feats don't count? In reference to Pokemon.
Or things that are blatantly purposeful information which honestly comes off as lying rather then just confusion or misremembering.
(which is even this thread alone like his Dark Samus point, his counter to it is objectively false and made up or leaving out vital information such as like how, while the Space Pirates did bring Metroids to Tallon IV, so did the Chozo ages prior, they're two different batches of the things, hell one such Metroid becomes the titular character).

Spit on it? Wouldnt go that far but this really does feel like a troll attempt.
 
Wall of text
1a) See point 4 for Samus’s toughness against Power Bombs… Next, her Scan Visor tells her if an obstacle is weakened; see point 6a for more details.
1b) I’m not lying given point 1a, all cases depend on materials’ properties (kreuger displacement, atomic weight and vacuum potential, as shown in their official data), and your third sub-point is explained by my second sub-point in this point 1b.
2) OK, unless those plants, ice surfaces or other objects are stated to be composed of certain compounds, those cases constitute one non-canon GM… Now five canon ones: Samus can roll through tight spaces with her Morph Ball, she can drop bombs in that ball form, she can fire charged shots with her Charge Beam, she can fire missiles and she can hang on certain surfaces with her Grapple Beam.
3) There’s no need for a statement in this case, because… How do those visual indicators not indicate the surface must be somehow weakened? They’re consistent with the Scan Visor’s function.
4) Materials’ properties are specified in their official data and Samus’s suits scale to them.
5) I didn’t repeat myself, I re-inserted the link so you can see in context until you read the copied statement in 1:00:02, which mentions what the SA-X can easily do now because of the blue hatches being active now.
6a) The description doesn’t say sandstone can always be destroyed by bombs, and the opposite would be inconsistent with the scans.
6b) Certain beams doing that to certain enemies… That depends on the beams’ properties and the enemies’ physical compositions.
 
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DarkDragonMedeus

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I typed Metroid into the wiki search and sorted by blogs, couldnt find any ZSS calc by that dude (there was a calc for Ridley though and a pretty ehhhh attempt at the nuke).
t̶h̶o̶u̶g̶h̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶r̶e̶'̶s̶ ̶a̶ ̶f̶e̶w̶ ̶j̶o̶j̶o̶ ̶f̶e̶a̶t̶s̶ ̶i̶ ̶m̶a̶y̶ ̶h̶a̶v̶e̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶s̶t̶e̶a̶l̶ ̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶r̶e̶d̶o̶

Couldnt find anything on ZS though, except the gunship crash.
Well, he apparently didn't put it in any sort of blog, nor did I see the work for it. But this was the post where it was mentioned.

But I pretty much agree every argument is "It's an outlier because I said so" or "It's non-canon because I said so" or taking every single game mechanic limitation in the book literally. This is "Master Chief should be 10-C because he gets killed instantly by three inch streams of water" levels of bad arguments.
 
Not a wall of text
I’m still waiting for your reply to my last reply in our discussion; but for now, this is how the Chozo couldn’t have taken Metroids to Tallon IV:
“Horrified by the increasing violence in the universe, they began to withdraw into themselves, forgoing technology in favor of simplicity. Tallon IV was one of the several refuges they built - a colony bereft of technology, built of natural materials and wedded to the land and its creatures.”… Prior to their arrival to Tallon IV, the Chozo stopped using high technology, which includes anything about Metroids.

Next, even if the Chozo had taken Metroids to Tallon IV:
“The years passed, and in time a great meteor crashed into Tallon IV, sending a massive spume of matter into the atmosphere and impregnating the land with a cancerous element known as Phazon. This element immediately sank into the earth and water, poisoning life wherever it bloomed.”… The Leviathan’s impact alone didn’t kill Tallon IV’s living beings around, so Metroids surviving too wouldn’t be a feat.

Finally, as I previously said:
Samus needs the Defense Cannon to destroy a Leviathan directly and even needs Phazon energy to destroy a Leviathan’s core, so she couldn’t kill anything that could survive a Leviathan’s impact.
 
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Dude, just stop.
Everyone is getting sick of this.

which includes anything about Metroids.

Except that's LITERALLY wrong. Need I remind you about the TITULAR CHARACTER.

The Leviathan’s impact alone didn’t kill Tallon IV’s living beings around, so Metroids surviving too wouldn’t be a feat.

No, it didn't lifewipe, it just completely annihilated everything at the impact, the impact crater which was calculated to be a certain yield, which Metroids were there.

Samus needs the Defense Cannon to destroy a Leviathan directly and even needs Phazon energy to destroy a Leviathan’s core, so she couldn’t kill anything that could survive a Leviathan’s impact.

Metroid Prime says what? Dark Samus says what? (also even ignoring basic ass gameplay reasoning, did it maybe not cross your mind that a nowhere near full power samus simply lacked the ability to even hit the thing in the first place? As in, range).
 

DarkDragonMedeus

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Yes, that still means Metroids could have easily been on Tallon IV during the impact; many races were on their during the impact. Space Pirates only collected Tallon IV and it said they transferred them to their ship for Phazon testing. Also that's literally the entire lore surrounding Tallon IV Metroids. Metroids wouldn't be phazon'd right away if they were taken after the incident.

It wasn't the impact, but rather the spread of Phazon. They were existing on a transcendent plane that was outside of time and space yet Phazon was able to reach them. It just shows how brokenly haxed Phazon is; it can even effect you if you live outside of space-time. But the Metroids physically took a direct hit; yes surface area would still need to be accounted for, but even characters with other planet level AP feats struggling to kill them would still be Planet level.

That is actually contradicted. In the first Prime game, she consistently fights enemies who were amped by Phazon even without Phazon enhancements and said foes absorbed enough Phazon to destroy Leviathans; especially the Omega Pirate. And Dark Samus also eats Leviathan cores regularly and Samus in just her Varia Suit consistently tanks blows from her; she'd still have planet level durability. Also, she regularly kills Phazon enhanced enemies tougher than Leviathan with her Super Missiles and Power Bombs; needing a defense cannon would still be PIS if anything.
 
Chariot190
1) But what would have Chozo done with Metroids in that time, especially in “a colony bereft of technology”?
2) Since Tallon IV’s Metroids were taken there by Space Pirates, Fission Metroids must’ve evolved from them.
3) Samus uses the Defense Cannon to destroy a Leviathan in a cutscene and travels to others’ insides in cutscenes.
Now, how about you reply to my last reply in our discussion?

DarkDragonMedeus
1) The Space Pirates transferred the Metroids from their ship to their lab, and the Phazon infusion occurred afterward.
2) Even if Tallon IV’s Metroids had been taken there by Chozo… Outside of space-time?
3) And everything Samus does to destroy other Leviathans is PIS, too? Your other claims must be misinterpretations instead.
Now, how about you reply to my last reply in our discussion?
 

DarkDragonMedeus

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It only said the Phazon testings happened; it did not mean they never had Phazon before they were taken to the Space Pirates lab. They always had Phazon, just didn't discovered till testing.

Yes, there's a bunch of Chozo lore found going to be mentioned later that's going to lead to a bunch of hax upgrades for Phazon.

You're not making any sense; and you're still deliberately ignoring the multitude of other feats. They are not misinterpretations, the literally all happened. She did get stronger with Phazon enhancements, but even without them she's still comparable to other Phazon enhanced enemies who are in turn superior to other Leviathan Cores. She kills enemies who survived the Leviathan impact all the time via her own powers. And she does this a lot more often then the "Defense cannon stuff". She scales to Dark Samus who scales above the combined might of three leviathan cores; that's it.
 
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But what would have Chozo done with Metroids in that time, especially in “a colony bereft of technology”?

Metroids are biological organisms that have wonderous energy manipulating properties, the Zebes Chozo even built them with that in mind, as a good to a the galaxy (as well as the x issue but they were tacking multiple issues at once).
And does it matter why the would need them? Point is they did have them there, it's canon and it happened, we don't need to know, all we need to know is if it is true and it is.
Since Tallon IV’s Metroids were taken there by Space Pirates, Fission Metroids must’ve evolved from them.
Huge jump in logic. Fuck, the impact crater was completely locked off for starters, the pirates couldnt even get in. No, those Metroids were there long before them, and there it is again, you're assuming because some things are one way that must mean all things are that way, it isnt how it works and is explicitly false in this situation as we know for a fact not all Tallon Metroids are from the Pirates.

Samus uses the Defense Cannon to destroy a Leviathan in a cutscene and travels to others’ insides in cutscenes.

And? That doesn't actually rebute what I said, and funny that now you're using a cutscene but the ten billion other cutscenes get ignored.

Now, how about you reply to my last reply in our discussion?

No, it's a complete and utter waste of my time to continue that topic, I wrote out a reply, thought on it, and came to the conclusion that it's a pointless endeavor.
 
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DarkDragonMedeus
1) The Space Pirates may’ve always had Phazon, yet they still didn’t transfer the Metroids from Tallon IV’s outdoors to their ship but from their ship to their lab.
2) I’m curious about that.
3) OK, I’ve read that third paragraph more carefully: Where is the Omega Pirate stated to have enough Phazon to destroy a Leviathan? Where is Dark Samus stated to eat Leviathan’s cores? And how are those other enemies tougher than Leviathans?

Chariot190
1) Chozo having created Metroids doesn’t mean they had them on Tallon IV; and my question was why did Chozo want to have Metroids on Tallon IV, so that “point is they did have them there” is a circular argument.
2) The second paragraph of this seems to have the explanation.
3) OK, you may want to read the point 3 in my reply to DDM, and I never ignore cutscenes.
 
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Chozo having created Metroids doesn’t mean they had them on Tallon IV; and my question was why did Chozo want to have Metroids on Tallon IV, so that “point is they did have them there” is a circular argument.

Are you incapable of basic reading comprehension dude because damn, you asked why they could have possibly had Metroids on Tallon IV, I gave you a reason, because they created them with certain functions that would prove beneficial. Does that mean they them on Tallon IV? Not inherently, but you know what DOES tell us they had them on Tallon IV? The fucking game, it quite simply doesn't matter if you think it makes sense, they canonically and explicitly had Metroids on Tallon IV, again, using terms you don't actually know the meaning of like circular argument isn't an argument.

The second paragraph of this seems to have the explanation.

It really doesnt, ignoring that's just fantheory and even says as much and fails to consider all the other Metroids in there that lack the capability to phase, the truth of the matter is, the reason why it's in there was because it was there LONG before the forcefield was created (as if that wasn't obvious, the Chozo's outright talk of it in the logs and Prime is one of the reasons it was created in the first place, that theory ONLY works in the original NTSC version, which has been completely retconned and Prime's whole backstory was written again).

OK, you may want to read the point 3 in my reply to DDM, and I never ignore cutscenes


Excuse me?


DDM can we like, just close this thread, it's a waste of all our time, this isn't going to go anywhere anyway.
 
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