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S.E.E.S. vs Investigation Team vs Phantom Thieves (Stats Equalized)

When you can't find a fair match for SMT/Persona so you put it against to another SMT/Persona and equalized it's stats
Megami Tensei is very smurf-y, which, unfortunately, makes it almost impossible to find a fair match-up. Technically stats don't need to be equalized due to RE/AD, but I figured it'd be more convenient to have them start equalized.
 
Megami Tensei is very smurf-y, which, unfortunately, makes it almost impossible to find a fair match-up. Technically stats don't need to be equalized due to RE/AD, but I figured it'd be more convenient to have them start equalized.
Yea, i definitely understand i tried to find matches for it too but all i see so far on the matches is stomp or be stomped
 
Well, if he has all of their best personas plus his own; he's mostly just a better version of them fighting wise.
I doubt that line of logic when all of their stats are equalized, and when none of their strongest Personas necessarily provide access to a power/ability that others' can't deal with.
 
Assuming we're talking about the Basic Member's and we don't have say, a Labrys or Akechi on the field (God forbid). I would like to inform you all that I didn't read the profiles before this post, so I may be missing some stuff, but from what I recall, doesn't Makoto Yuki have the Universe? Or are we using his Endgame stats from right before that? Either way, unless stated otherwise, I'm assuming SEES has no Shinji, IT is just the basic 8, and PT doesn't have Akechi or Sumi. I would personally, at a glance, go with SEES for the win (Mainly due to Makoto's Fusion Spell's and Messiah + Aigis being a powerhouse). That being said, I'm just taking a glance at the match up and mainly using my memory of what I read/know, and could be easily wrong. I think I'll come back to this after looking at the profiles, but it'd be nice to get some knowledgeable people on the verse who are a little more seasoned on the Wiki.
 
Assuming we're talking about the Basic Member's and we don't have say, a Labrys or Akechi on the field (God forbid).
doesn't Makoto Yuki have the Universe? Or are we using his Endgame stats from right before that? Either way, unless stated otherwise, I'm assuming SEES has no Shinji, IT is just the basic 8, and PT doesn't have Akechi or Sumi.
Each group is in the state they were in during their respective games' final segments (just before or during the final boss, if you will).

I would personally, at a glance, go with SEES for the win (Mainly due to Makoto's Fusion Spell's and Messiah + Aigis being a powerhouse).
Stats are equalized, so Physical prowess shouldn't have more precedence in this fight (unless it's achieved through buff skills). Fusion Spells would be helpful, but both the IT and PTs should be capable of handling them, since they don't introduce any new or unfamiliar abilities.
 
Stats are equalized, so Physical prowess shouldn't have more precedence in this fight (unless it's achieved through buff skills). Fusion Spells would be helpful, but both the IT and PTs should be capable of handling them, since they don't introduce any new or unfamiliar abilities.
You have a point on the Physical Prowess, but Aigis has more than just her raw stats. She has speed buff's, bullets, and a generally useful persona.
 
That's true as well. It generally evens out a good bit when you equalize stats, though I personally still give the slight edge to S.E.E.S. due to their generally talented and strategic Member's (Makoto, Aigis, Mitsuru, and Akihiko come to mind). I can see a argument for other teams, however.
 
That's true as well. It generally evens out a good bit when you equalize stats, though I personally still give the slight edge to S.E.E.S. due to their generally talented and strategic Member's (Makoto, Aigis, Mitsuru, and Akihiko come to mind). I can see a argument for other teams, however.
I'll try to give my analysis of each teams' combat feats sometime later this week. For now, I'll just say the Phantom Thieves likely hold an advantage due to their stealth capabilities.
 
Ok, after some time, I'm coming back to this thread.

Going by what has been stated so far, it seems each protag is from before gaining their World/Universe
Now just saying it right now, if we included the likely non-canon P5R DLC, Joker wins. He'd get Izanagi-No-Okami + It's Picaro Variant, and use the Myriad Truth's to hyper nuke both teams. Assuming that isn't the case...

SEES's main advantages:

- Makoto has his Ultimate Persona, Messiah, as well as Thanatos

- Aigis, while her stats are equalized, just by nature of being a Robot can take more pain than a normal human can before succumbing to her injuries. In addition, her long range bullets are strong enough to hurt Shadow's and Persona User's.

- SEES has a general better sense of Strategy and Training, and a more militaristic/professional approach to Combat.

- Junpei has Regenerative Properties

- They have two persona user's outside the wildcard that can use Insta Death Hax, which would work on everyone except the other Wildcard's and Naoto, if I recall the elemental affinities correctly.

- Mitsuru is a very strategy oriented person, who would likely have a heavy commanding presence on the field

- Each of them, regardless of their SL's, have their Evolved Persona's

- Armageddon from Makoto. Nuff said.


IT's Main advantages:

- Assuming you did all the SL's to the fullest, they would have Tier 3's, a luxury neither other team has. This means they get their exclusive skills.

- Scooters.

- Naoto is a hard counter to any Death Hax due to resisting/nulling Light and Dark, and could take out Ken and Koro due to their weakness's. And after that, she has Megidolaon, a valuable skill to have.

- Teddie... Has the weirdest Abilities in the series... Period.

- Rise is arguably the best Battle Navigator

PT's Main Advantages:

- Stealth (Though I, question how well they could implement this in this kind of a battle.)

- Futaba is a excellent Battle Navi and good with other Misc. Stuff

- Joker is seen as a generally more tricky/strategic Leader than Makoto or Yu are (Yu being by far the least strategic)

- PT's have the most Dedicated healers (Ann, Morgana, and Makoto can all heal (Though Ann to a lesser extent), and Haru has other supportive skills such as Amrita Drop to deal with status Ailments)

- Baton Pass, nuff said.

- Mona Car. Nuff said.

- Joker get's several unique, quality of life abilities from his Confidants that Yu and Makoto lack


There's probably some more I left out.
All in all, I still give it to SEES, due to having the most abnormal Persona User's (Aigis who could prolly lose a arm and still keep fighting, Junpei with his insane Regen skill, Ken and Koro both having Death Hax), the most Militaristic Strategy based mentality, and Makoto having all his Possible Persona's where Ren and Yu would be stuck to just all Persona's they can get except for those and anything NG+ related (Like Narukami's Magatzu Izanagi, he's not here). And worst comes to worst, Makoto would use the Armageddon Fusion spell to decimate the opposing teams, as it's shown to even work on Nyx Avatar to a limited extent, still dealing ludicrous damage in spite of it scaling higher than SEES and that Makoto at that time, so anyone on the same level would have to be careful.

... Oh, and be thankful we aren't using Kotone here- Her Armageddon is a Item, so it applies no strain to her, so even if one or two stragglers somehow made it out unscathed, they'd have to deal with a full power Kotone and her team.

That being said, I can see the argument for the Thieves- Joker abuses Baton Pass's to get everyone (But Naoto) on the ground over and over, Futaba does some weird cog stuff, etc.

And... Even IT have some form of a argument- Their Exclusive Skills, Rise's Navigation, and Naoto in general all come to mind.

I just see more applicable reasons for SEES than the other teams to win, though.
 
Now just saying it right now, if we included the likely non-canon P5R DLC, Joker wins. He'd get Izanagi-No-Okami + It's Picaro Variant, and use the Myriad Truth's to hyper nuke both teams.
I disagree. DLC Personas are actually canon, as confirmed by Comic A La Carte. Regardless, Myriad Truths is essentially just a combination of enhanced Resistance Negation and Existence Erasure that scales to Izanami-no-Okami. Given that members of SEES, the Investigation Team, and the Phantom Thieves were able to recover from Enlil, who is at least comparable to I-n-O, erasing them from existence, I doubt such an ability will turn the tide of battle.

Aigis, while her stats are equalized, just by nature of being a Robot can take more pain than a normal human can before succumbing to her injuries. In addition, her long range bullets are strong enough to hurt Shadow's and Persona User's.
That isn't how stat equalization works. She'll be just as durable and have just as much stamina as any other character in the battle. Additionally, Persona users (as well as spiritually empowered humans in general), have demonstrated on a multitude of occasions the ability to evolve rapidly in the face of danger, stomping foes who were previously impervious to their attacks.

- SEES has a general better sense of Strategy and Training, and a more militaristic/professional approach to Combat.
Do you have any scans to support this claim?

- Junpei has Regenerative Properties
Anyone with the "Regenerate" does too. Granted, Junpei's "Spring of Ability" is slightly better, though the difference wouldn't be enough to have any noticeable effect in-battle. All Persona users would have Regeneration Negation by virtue of slaying Nagas and Blobs, anyway.

- They have two persona user's outside the wildcard that can use Insta Death Hax, which would work on everyone except the other Wildcard's and Naoto, if I recall the elemental affinities correctly.
Kasumi, Akechi, Morgana, Makoto, Chie, and Teddie all either resist or outright nullify Bless or Curse attacks. All End-Game Persona users have High-Godly regeneration as well, so Insta-Kill hax won't have too much effectiveness.

- Armageddon from Makoto. Nuff said.
Armageddon is simply an exceptionally powerful Almighty attack. I've explained how that wouldn't have much impact. There are also no lore feats for the spell, making it hard to pinpoint its potency. At best, you could say it scales >= Satan (a component of the fusion), but both Joker and Yu would also scale above him anyways.

- Assuming you did all the SL's to the fullest, they would have Tier 3's, a luxury neither other team has. This means they get their exclusive skills.
While that is true, I don't believe any of their unique spells would grant them access to anything the other groups couldn't handle. It's been awhile, however, and I don't entirely remember what they were.

- Scooters.
Agreed. AGREED.
 
I disagree. DLC Personas are actually canon, as confirmed by Comic A La Carte. Regardless, Myriad Truths is essentially just a combination of enhanced Resistance Negation and Existence Erasure that scales to Izanami-no-Okami. Given that members of SEES, the Investigation Team, and the Phantom Thieves were able to recover from Enlil, who is at least comparable to I-n-O, erasing them from existence, I doubt such an ability will turn the tide of battle.
Pfffft.

Ok... Does Enlil have Resistance Negation though?


That isn't how stat equalization works. She'll be just as durable and have just as much stamina as any other character in the battle. Additionally, Persona users (as well as spiritually empowered humans in general), have demonstrated on a multitude of occasions the ability to evolve rapidly in the face of danger, stomping foes who were previously impervious to their attacks.
This is less about Dura/Stamina, and more about Biology. So like... How about this. You cut off a normal guy's arm? They gonna bleed out. You cut off a Robot's arm? Nothing. There's no blood to bleed. In essence, what is lethal to a person is not inherently lethal to a robot.


Do you have any scans to support this claim?
No. No I don't. But since this is in fun and games, I'd imagine defenses would be able to be a little more... Lenient. Seeing as IT is just a bunch of Kid's and PT's are just a bunch of smart criminal kids, whereas SEES acts more like a Private Military Squad Unit (Being funded by a extra rich man, given some real equipment off the bat, and being advised by a Adult, all for the serious purpose of eliminating 12 (+) threats to humanity), it's easy to conclude they probably have a more serious, less "I can do cool and flashy stuff!" Approach to battle, instead of... Well, the obviously less focused IT and more Chaotic and less well Supplied/Supported PT's.



Anyone with the "Regenerate" does too. Granted, Junpei's "Spring of Ability" is slightly better, though the difference wouldn't be enough to have any noticeable effect in-battle. All Persona users would have Regeneration Negation by virtue of slaying Nagas and Blobs, anyway.
From what I recall, most Persona User's don't have Regeneration- ... Though, I seem to keep forgetting that the Persona's have the same hax as the figure would in Mythology/Religion/Fiction/Real Life (kinda on that last one)... Yeah, that would kinda make Junpei just mid then.

Armageddon is simply an exceptionally powerful Almighty attack. I've explained how that wouldn't have much impact. There are also no lore feats for the spell, making it hard to pinpoint its potency. At best, you could say it scales >= Satan (a component of the fusion), but both Joker and Yu would also scale above him anyways.
Hm, Lore wise... You are right. That being said, Armageddon should by default be stronger than Megidolaon looking at the damage output, and seeing that stats are equalized, shouldn't that also apply to how strong Armageddon is in relation to the Protag's other attacks? I might be stretching, granted, but like, it can cleave off a massive chunk of hp compared to other attacks when used against bosses...


While that is true, I don't believe any of their unique spells would grant them access to anything the other groups couldn't handle. It's been awhile, however, and I don't entirely remember what they were.
Yosuke's is just Heal + Speed Amp, bit mid. Chie is Party wide Heat Riser, pretty good as it means that P4 would take less time/resources to get their stats amped than the other teams. Yukiko'sis just renamed Blazing Hell. Kanji's has a chance of downing all enemies + making them dizzy. Rise's basically let's her see all enemies affinities turn one, in contrast to the time it takes for Fuuka and Futaba. Teddies... Does a lot of weird things- It's stated to cause a random effect, but from the wiki itself...

1. All allies and/or all foes' HP and SP fully recovered;
2. All allies and/or all foes downed;
3. All allies and/or all foes inflicted with random status ailment;
4. Nothing.

... So basically, a last ditch effort luck based skill. And finally, Naoto's... The big game changer here. Naoto's Party Wide shield, which would give the IT much more survivability.

Kasumi, Akechi, Morgana, Makoto, Chie, and Teddie all either resist or outright nullify Bless or Curse attacks. All End-Game Persona users have High-Godly regeneration as well, so Insta-Kill hax won't have too much effectiveness.
.
I thought we were reffering to Yaldabaoth End Game PT
Not Royal Maruki endgame
... Well.
That changes everything.
Not even just the inclusion of the possibility of their third tiers alone (Buff's from Ann, Ryuji, and Yusuke constantly, Makoto's constant debuff's, and Haru's shield? Hot damn...), not even just Kasumi, who's crit can hit for miles.

The simple inclusion of Akechi ***** the other teams.
Looking at the Loki boss fight and the... Sheer bs he can pull, and his skill range...
Not to mention the self Berserker amp he can apply. Before the Amp, he was roughly comparable to a average PT, a little closer to Joker. Afterwards w/ Loki? The whole PT had to team up to beat him. Meaning Akechi could essentially attempt to solo IT or smth while his teammates fight SEES (Akechi's increase would prolly be weakened as I'd imagine Loki's stats would be equalized, but the IT have less fighter's than the PT, so it kinda evens out to a limited extent). At the very least, Akechi would act as a force on the battlefield much too powerful for anyone to take on without assistance. This isn't even to mention how much experience he has, having been Shido's assassin in Cognition for years and grasping a likely better understanding of his Persona's than most other fighter's here. He likely just blatantly outskills the whole IT and at least half of SEES tbh. If you give PT's Akechi, I'd have to vote for them because Akechi simply takes the advantages they already had, and makes them even more problematic than SEES or IT's advantages can handle.
 
Ok... Does Enlil have Resistance Negation though?
Yeah, all spells in Megami Tensei inherently negate resistances.

This is less about Dura/Stamina, and more about Biology. So like... How about this. You cut off a normal guy's arm? They gonna bleed out. You cut off a Robot's arm? Nothing. There's no blood to bleed. In essence, what is lethal to a person is not inherently lethal to a robot.
Except severing a Persona user's limb would be far from lethal to them. Off the top of my head, I can think of at least three ways they could handle such an injury, from braving it out with their RE/AD to simply restoring them with a healing spell.

Seeing as IT is just a bunch of Kid's and PT's are just a bunch of smart criminal kids, whereas SEES acts more like a Private Military Squad Unit (Being funded by a extra rich man, given some real equipment off the bat, and being advised by a Adult, all for the serious purpose of eliminating 12 (+) threats to humanity), it's easy to conclude they probably have a more serious, less "I can do cool and flashy stuff!" Approach to battle, instead of... Well, the obviously less focused IT and more Chaotic and less well Supplied/Supported PT's.
This seems more like your own personal characterization than any testament to their combat prowess, to be entirely honest. None of the reasons you listed necessarily imply SEES is more battle-savvy than the PTs or IT. The members of SEES aren't treated like soldiers in the military and don't have any formal combat training outside of their school clubs. The Phantom Thieves also have better combat feats, due to them fighting demons/shadows who are closely tied to the concepts of warfare and battle.

You are right. That being said, Armageddon should by default be stronger than Megidolaon looking at the damage output, and seeing that stats are equalized, shouldn't that also apply to how strong Armageddon is in relation to the Protag's other attacks? I might be stretching, granted, but like, it can cleave off a massive chunk of hp compared to other attacks when used against bosses...
Armageddon would be significantly more powerful than most other spells in terms of raw potency, but each group has survived attacks of higher calibers in the past. Worse case scenario: PTs and IT are temporarily erased from existence, only to manifest themselves again shortly thereafter through willpower.
 
Yeah, all spells in Megami Tensei inherently negate resistances.
Ah, I see. From the wiki's pov then, you are correct. I concede.

Except severing a Persona user's limb would be far from lethal to them. Off the top of my head, I can think of at least three ways they could handle such an injury, from braving it out with their RE/AD to simply restoring them with a healing spell.
... Ok yeah, once again, must concede (though I find the idea of Yukiko losing her Leg and shrugging it off but Shinji dying from a bullet being funny lol)

This seems more like your own personal characterization than any testament to their combat prowess, to be entirely honest. None of the reasons you listed necessarily imply SEES is more battle-savvy than the PTs or IT. The members of SEES aren't treated like soldiers in the military and don't have any formal combat training outside of their school clubs. The Phantom Thieves also have better combat feats, due to them fighting demons/shadows who are closely tied to the concepts of warfare and battle.
Since this was in fun and games, I used a argument that I would never use in a real vs thread. It is true that PT have more combat feats, but it just, kinda makes more sense for a group funded by a super rich millionaire to have military training than to not. But, again... From the wiki's perspective, I would concede had this been a more serious debate.
Armageddon would be significantly more powerful than most other spells in terms of raw potency, but each group has survived attacks of higher calibers in the past. Worse case scenario: PTs and IT are temporarily erased from existence, only to manifest themselves again shortly thereafter through willpower.
Following this logic, wouldn't the same apply to any worthy of note attack being delivered to SEES? It'd just be a Infinite loop of them seemingly beating their opposing teams, for them to just reappear out of Willpower.



... Not that any of this matters cause Akechi makes this a shitfest-
 
Following this logic, wouldn't the same apply to any worthy of note attack being delivered to SEES? It'd just be a Infinite loop of them seemingly beating their opposing teams, for them to just reappear out of Willpower.
You're entirely correct, at least in regards to Almighty attacks. High-Godly regeneration only applies if they're erased, meaning they wouldn't be able to recover from "normal" spells unless they were revived.
 
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