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Rider vs. Rider: Medusa vs. Iskandar
- Thread starter SuperKamiNappa
- Start date
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Iskander has C rank mana, which is the worst thing possible when Medusa uses her mystic eyes, and her mount has really strong defenses which Iskander's army of servent level soldiers without noble phantasms probably wouldn't be able to damage.
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I cast revive on this thread.
"Anyone without considerable Magic Resistance will be instantly petrified"
Medusa takes off her blindfold and he almost immediatly dies. Archer's own D-rank magic resistance did absolutely nothing to stop Cybele in a meaningful way.
So Medusa takes this pretty decisively.
"Anyone without considerable Magic Resistance will be instantly petrified"
Medusa takes off her blindfold and he almost immediatly dies. Archer's own D-rank magic resistance did absolutely nothing to stop Cybele in a meaningful way.
So Medusa takes this pretty decisively.
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Bae claps fra
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Man of culture's waifu FRA
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Waifu Rider FRA
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For even more memes, Medusa doesn't even need her eyes.
Her Pegasus is crazy strong, far superior to something like Iskandar's Via Expugnatio, since Via Expugnatio was vaporized by Excalibur, while Medusa's Pegasus was capable of directly contesting Excalibur with some assistance. It's very likely that if it came down to a straight punch out between the two, the Pegasus would win out.
If she gets prep, she uses full power BfA, and not even Archer, someone with more Mana and the same magic resistance, could fight for very long under its effects.
If we take it to a straight punching match between the two servants, Medusa can blitz Hassan of the Cursed Arm (who has A rank AGI) quite casually, and would also outright be stronger than Iskandar thanks to her Monstrous Strength skill.
Basically, the only reason this isn't a stomp is because none of this would happen before Iskandar can take action, and he technically could win, but it is insanely unlikely.
Her Pegasus is crazy strong, far superior to something like Iskandar's Via Expugnatio, since Via Expugnatio was vaporized by Excalibur, while Medusa's Pegasus was capable of directly contesting Excalibur with some assistance. It's very likely that if it came down to a straight punch out between the two, the Pegasus would win out.
If she gets prep, she uses full power BfA, and not even Archer, someone with more Mana and the same magic resistance, could fight for very long under its effects.
If we take it to a straight punching match between the two servants, Medusa can blitz Hassan of the Cursed Arm (who has A rank AGI) quite casually, and would also outright be stronger than Iskandar thanks to her Monstrous Strength skill.
Basically, the only reason this isn't a stomp is because none of this would happen before Iskandar can take action, and he technically could win, but it is insanely unlikely.
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Bump
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Medusa Rides Iskander FRA
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Oh and if he uses his RM, Medusa just makes a lot of statues
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I'll vote Iskandar. Iskandar primarily fights with Gordius, whereas Medusa more often then not fights on foot. This basically has Medusa one step behind Iskandar throughout the whole fight. When Pegasus gets whipped out, Via Expugnatio becomes Iskandar's only viable option, but seeing as Medusa's speed is scaled to Artoria's, and we saw what Via Expugnatio did to her, its largely possible that Iskandar could deal some sufficient damage with it. Another way this could go is Iskandar Via Expugnatios as soon as he realizes Medusa and him are of similar strength while hes using a Noble Phantasm (Gordius), absolutely obliterating her. Ionio Hetairoi could also serve as a detraction if Cybele factors in, her line of sight focusing on the thousands of soldiers in front of her while getting struck from the back.
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Uh, dude.
At any point she can take of her blindfold and he dies. She doesn't need line of sight. Picturing the eye in your mind does the trick too.
At any point she can take of her blindfold and he dies. She doesn't need line of sight. Picturing the eye in your mind does the trick too.
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The possession of Mystic Eyes, abnormal eyes that can influence the World. Rider possesses the Mystic Eyes of Petrification, Cybele, which allow her to petrify anything within her line of sight, even those who aren't looking at her or those with their eyes closed, as they are still looking upon Rider with their mind's eyeKnightOfSunlight said:
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And herein lies the issue. Iskandar winning requires Medusa to never take off her blindfold, which she will inevitably do.
In fact, it's in character for her to ope with that.
In fact, it's in character for her to ope with that.
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Or that he doesnt enter her line of vision with the blindfold off, which is entirely possible and fairly likely (as the blindfold is usually removed upward, which would paralyze Gordius bulls first)KnightOfSunlight said:
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Rider FRA
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This XDLSirLancelotDuLacl said:
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Anyway, Medusa FRAs.
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Actually, let me break this down
" Iskandar primarily fights with Gordius, whereas Medusa more often then not fights on foot. This basically has Medusa one step behind Iskandar throughout the whole fight."
And here's the biggest issue with the argument. In any scenario where Medusa is on the back foot or a step behind, her in character action is to unseal Breaker Gorgon and use Cybele. In an ironic sense, Iskandar starting with an advantage is the absolute worst part about this, as it accelerates the usage of somethign he absolutely cannot answer.
"Medusa's speed is scaled to Artoria's"
Incorrect. Medusa's speed is scaled to casually blitzing Cursed Arm Hassan, who has A rank AGI. Medusa has the speed advantage and the manuverability advantage, as whil she is still possibly slower than Gordius, she is certainly more manuverable than it, in all circumstances.
"and we saw what Via Expugnatio did to her, its largely possible that Iskandar could deal some sufficient damage with it."
You mean what she did to it. She annihilated it without a second thought. Were it to come down between it and her Pegasus, the Pegasus wins because it could still contest a blast that was more powerful than the one that destroyed Expugnatio.
" Another way this could go is Iskandar Via Expugnatios as soon as he realizes Medusa and him are of similar strength while hes using a Noble Phantasm (Gordius), absolutely obliterating her"
Not only is this out of character for him, its also going to happen a second too late, likely just behind Breaker Gorgon being unsealed. And there's no saying whether or not she can just dodge it, which it not impossible because of her dodging Excalibur's blasts
"Ionio Hetairoi could also serve as a detraction if Cybele factors in, her line of sight focusing on the thousands of soldiers in front of her while getting struck from the back."
None of his troops have magic resistance, and his won't stop her eyes. She sweeps her line of sight over them and they all turn into statues.
" Iskandar primarily fights with Gordius, whereas Medusa more often then not fights on foot. This basically has Medusa one step behind Iskandar throughout the whole fight."
And here's the biggest issue with the argument. In any scenario where Medusa is on the back foot or a step behind, her in character action is to unseal Breaker Gorgon and use Cybele. In an ironic sense, Iskandar starting with an advantage is the absolute worst part about this, as it accelerates the usage of somethign he absolutely cannot answer.
"Medusa's speed is scaled to Artoria's"
Incorrect. Medusa's speed is scaled to casually blitzing Cursed Arm Hassan, who has A rank AGI. Medusa has the speed advantage and the manuverability advantage, as whil she is still possibly slower than Gordius, she is certainly more manuverable than it, in all circumstances.
"and we saw what Via Expugnatio did to her, its largely possible that Iskandar could deal some sufficient damage with it."
You mean what she did to it. She annihilated it without a second thought. Were it to come down between it and her Pegasus, the Pegasus wins because it could still contest a blast that was more powerful than the one that destroyed Expugnatio.
" Another way this could go is Iskandar Via Expugnatios as soon as he realizes Medusa and him are of similar strength while hes using a Noble Phantasm (Gordius), absolutely obliterating her"
Not only is this out of character for him, its also going to happen a second too late, likely just behind Breaker Gorgon being unsealed. And there's no saying whether or not she can just dodge it, which it not impossible because of her dodging Excalibur's blasts
"Ionio Hetairoi could also serve as a detraction if Cybele factors in, her line of sight focusing on the thousands of soldiers in front of her while getting struck from the back."
None of his troops have magic resistance, and his won't stop her eyes. She sweeps her line of sight over them and they all turn into statues.
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Also, from what I can see: Via Expungio is stronger than Pegasus, Medusa doesn't often start with Cybele, and Iskandar with Gordius seems to hold the speed advantage, meaning Iskandar has ever opportunity to finish her off before she becomes a threat
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She always starts with Cybele as long as Sakura is her master (which is the case here)
The reason people think she doesn't is that doing so under Wakame would've killed her and him because of the mana cost. Which isn't a problem under Sakura because nearly infinite mana.
The reason people think she doesn't is that doing so under Wakame would've killed her and him because of the mana cost. Which isn't a problem under Sakura because nearly infinite mana.
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And Via Expugnatio is not stronger than Pegasus.
One was destroyed completely from Normal Artoria's Excalibur.
The other contested for a brief while with an AMPED Excalibur
One was destroyed completely from Normal Artoria's Excalibur.
The other contested for a brief while with an AMPED Excalibur
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6 votes for Rider (Cultured Waifu)
1 vote for Rider (War Cry)
1 vote for Rider (War Cry)
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Cybele wasn't used during the Fate route, the UBW route, and once briefly during the HF route, and she started on foot all three times
Her profile basically says she can outpace Saber and run circles around Saber Alter, to whom Iskandar is equal to on foot. Gordius should be able to outpace Medusa, let alone Via
Pegasus was demolished with no resistance, I just watched the fight. I'll go back and watch Iskandar v Artoria, but I don't remember it being that bad.
As the tactician he is, since he's not trying to prove a point like he was against Artiora, he would try to finish the fight as quick as possible. It would be strategically flawed to let his opponent use their NP on him.
The focus would still be in the opposite direction as Iskandar's likely approach.
Her profile basically says she can outpace Saber and run circles around Saber Alter, to whom Iskandar is equal to on foot. Gordius should be able to outpace Medusa, let alone Via
Pegasus was demolished with no resistance, I just watched the fight. I'll go back and watch Iskandar v Artoria, but I don't remember it being that bad.
As the tactician he is, since he's not trying to prove a point like he was against Artiora, he would try to finish the fight as quick as possible. It would be strategically flawed to let his opponent use their NP on him.
The focus would still be in the opposite direction as Iskandar's likely approach.
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They are both A+ Anti Army NPs. The one used by normal Saber and Saber Alter is not one bit different. Saber Alter can just spam it. Don't try to use that as a point of comparison.
But while the bulls would already be comparable to the Pegasus, Bellerophon makes the Pegasus even stronger, upgrading all stats by one rank and multiplying it's defensive power already on the level of a dragon by several times. Pegasus by all means should have the advantage.
But while the bulls would already be comparable to the Pegasus, Bellerophon makes the Pegasus even stronger, upgrading all stats by one rank and multiplying it's defensive power already on the level of a dragon by several times. Pegasus by all means should have the advantage.
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Cyebele was used during against EMIYA, and then again against Saber Alter. One of which would've been blitzed by Medusa, and the other of which was more powerful. It is in character for her to use it.
Her profile scaling her to Saber fails to account for Cursed Arm Hassan, who she blitzed.
A weakened Pegasus. VS the End of Heaven's Feel where it manages to contest Excalibur Morgan for a brief bit before Shirou uses Rho Aias to push Medusa to victory.
And Iskandar may be a tactician, but he doesn't behave tactically at all. He announces his presence to two knight classes, Berserker, and Gilgamesh as his first major action. That's not tactical. That's borderline stupid. It is also strategically flawed to let two of your greatest enemies see your ultimate tump card. And even more so to charge someone who is using their NOBLE PHANTASM, one that you know full well the power of.
And Iskandar never once uses an unconventional approach in his RM. He charges, even against someone like Gilgamesh, where a tactical approach would've been immensely useful.
Her profile scaling her to Saber fails to account for Cursed Arm Hassan, who she blitzed.
A weakened Pegasus. VS the End of Heaven's Feel where it manages to contest Excalibur Morgan for a brief bit before Shirou uses Rho Aias to push Medusa to victory.
And Iskandar may be a tactician, but he doesn't behave tactically at all. He announces his presence to two knight classes, Berserker, and Gilgamesh as his first major action. That's not tactical. That's borderline stupid. It is also strategically flawed to let two of your greatest enemies see your ultimate tump card. And even more so to charge someone who is using their NOBLE PHANTASM, one that you know full well the power of.
And Iskandar never once uses an unconventional approach in his RM. He charges, even against someone like Gilgamesh, where a tactical approach would've been immensely useful.
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Bellerophon is only listed as being able to stop EM with Rho Aias's help, wouldn't that only make it slightly stronger, or am I misunderstanding?LSirLancelotDuLacl said:
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Pegasus wasn't able to overcome it, but it was able to at least hold out under it until Shirou gave it the push in the form of Rho Aias to help. Which makes it superior because Excalibur obliterated VE in a swipe.
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As I said, Gordius Wheel and Pegasus are of the same rank. Both got completely destroyed without a chance to do anything by an Excali blast, there's no level of comparison there. Using the Rho Aias case just feels dishonest when weakened Saber completely destroyed Weakened Rider's Pegasus in Fate route.
But again, there's nothing really especial to the bulls, while the Pegasus has his defensive power really emphasized and Bellerophon multiplies it by several times. Beast to beast, the Pegasus should be a bit stronger and have much better defense than the bulls. This is without accounting for Cybele.
But again, there's nothing really especial to the bulls, while the Pegasus has his defensive power really emphasized and Bellerophon multiplies it by several times. Beast to beast, the Pegasus should be a bit stronger and have much better defense than the bulls. This is without accounting for Cybele.
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I'll watch those fights to get a better idea of what Iskandar can do.
I have to go based on what her profile says, and right now, that says that Iskandar would have the speed advantage.
Ahhh okay, I watched the Fate route, my apologies. If thats the case, Pegasus Bellerophon sounds to be stronger, but not to the point of oneshotting, giving Iskandar some wiggle room.
The first example, yes that's stupid, but it isn't foolhardy. He doesn't take cheap shots and he makes his presence known, which seems pretty innocent in the long and short of it. The second example, tbf, he didn't have much of a choice. Finally, again, tbf, if he had been slightly faster, Fate/Stay Night would've been a very different story. Also, his stubbornness and arrogance in that fight could be attributed to his feelings specifically toward Artoria
Against someone would oneshots your whole army with a look, I think Iskandar is willing to strategize. As far as Gil, he'd lost the fight before it even began.
I have to go based on what her profile says, and right now, that says that Iskandar would have the speed advantage.
Ahhh okay, I watched the Fate route, my apologies. If thats the case, Pegasus Bellerophon sounds to be stronger, but not to the point of oneshotting, giving Iskandar some wiggle room.
The first example, yes that's stupid, but it isn't foolhardy. He doesn't take cheap shots and he makes his presence known, which seems pretty innocent in the long and short of it. The second example, tbf, he didn't have much of a choice. Finally, again, tbf, if he had been slightly faster, Fate/Stay Night would've been a very different story. Also, his stubbornness and arrogance in that fight could be attributed to his feelings specifically toward Artoria
Against someone would oneshots your whole army with a look, I think Iskandar is willing to strategize. As far as Gil, he'd lost the fight before it even began.
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Understood, Pegasus should have a decent advantageLSirLancelotDuLacl said:
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That's... not really worth anything. At no point do I remember the writing implying this lasted long. And I don't see Pegasus getting a boost bigger than Excalibur to go from instant wipe in fate to holding on whole seconds. That was just dramatic timing.KnightOfSunlight said:
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Is it at all possible for Iskandar's A+ Luck to play a role in these perceedings?
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Also, on top of A+ Luck, its worth mentioning that, due to prior engagements, Iskandar was slightly weakened against Artoria. Would it make a huge difference against Pegasus? Probably not. Is it a distinction without a difference? No. Iskandar was also able to dodge Excalibur point blank while charging straight at it (the reason he didn't get severly damaged when Goridus got destroyed).
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I don't see it making any sort of worthwhile difference, and luck isn't gonna interfere here. What role it could play would be utter speculation.
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This seems incredibly important in dealing with CybeleLSirLancelotDuLacl said:
Servants with B-rank Luck or higher can change their own fates to evade inevitable outcomes
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Until we see it working on a continuous effect, I am not gonna assume it can do much if anything.
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I was think more along the lines of "Iskandar summons Ionio and Medusa focuses on them while Iskandar get a solid shot off" or "Medusa doesn't start with Cybele and Iskandar blinds her in combat" or something like thatLSirLancelotDuLacl said:
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Even if Iskandar just summons Eumenes, Parmenion, Hephaestion, and Ptolemy in all different directions, A+ Luck could allow for him to make the most out of that situation
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Luck working in that way is complete speculation and not supported by anything
And if iskandar does pull his RM Medusa is immediately using Cybele and staring straight at him. She's not dumb.
And if iskandar does pull his RM Medusa is immediately using Cybele and staring straight at him. She's not dumb.
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Minor Fate Manipulation can't be ignored, speculation or notKnightOfSunlight said:
if he uses Gordius, he can move faster than she can follow, add to the fact that 5 pseudo servants have joined the fight, her focus might shift. If it does for even a moment, she's a goner
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No. It can't, but it has never been shown to undo continuous effects as you imply it can. At most it's a quick save against an unbeatable move.
And that's entirely wrong. Medusa would be perfectly capable of tracking Gordius, just like how Arturia can.
And that's entirely wrong. Medusa would be perfectly capable of tracking Gordius, just like how Arturia can.
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I never once implied that it undid a continued effect, because that's not supported by the showing, I stated it could turn the tide of battle in Iskandar's favorKnightOfSunlight said:
If he used Via to zip passed her to get behind her, it's possible. Via almost blitzed Saber from 100 meters away
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Still not happening as far as I am concerned. We can say it could help him, but I remove luck as a factor when it rarely if ever intervenes and we have no clue how it'd do it.
Beyond that, pulling out a RM is just asking Medusa to pull out Cybele and Pegasus. I don't see Via Expugnatio being used off the bat either when he only used it once in a sort of honorable clash with Saber.
Beyond that, pulling out a RM is just asking Medusa to pull out Cybele and Pegasus. I don't see Via Expugnatio being used off the bat either when he only used it once in a sort of honorable clash with Saber.
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I'm just going to point out that Cybele costs more to use the more people are being petrified at once, and Iskander's reality marble lets him pull out an entire army.
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In this key she's being fueled by Sakura, so not sure how much does Mana issues trouble her.
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Luck seems to intervene in moments exactly like this (Saber and Gae Bolg), so I personally consider it just as important as any other stat
He can summon select members of his army without using the RM, so that could help. Via would probably only be used against Pegasus (which it would lose to), or in a tactical situation, which could be anything depending on the fight. As the fight progresses, so long as Iskandar can defeat Medusa before Pegasus comes out, victory is assured (and takes care not to warrant Cybele)
He can summon select members of his army without using the RM, so that could help. Via would probably only be used against Pegasus (which it would lose to), or in a tactical situation, which could be anything depending on the fight. As the fight progresses, so long as Iskandar can defeat Medusa before Pegasus comes out, victory is assured (and takes care not to warrant Cybele)
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Ah.LSirLancelotDuLacl said:
Ok yeah not an issue then.
Waifu FRA
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Except all it did was make Gae Bolg barely not kill Saber, and we have no clue how does it effect anything beyond determined fate bullshit like that. So again, it is worthless because we can't even speculate properly about it.
Still get petrified. Double so because unless they are mages, they get petrified stupidly faster. And the problem here is that Medusa is not nearly so stupid as to see a dude pull out help and a Chariot and just decide to stay on her feat, so Gordius Wheel out means her Pegasus is likely following soon after.
Still get petrified. Double so because unless they are mages, they get petrified stupidly faster. And the problem here is that Medusa is not nearly so stupid as to see a dude pull out help and a Chariot and just decide to stay on her feat, so Gordius Wheel out means her Pegasus is likely following soon after.
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If it can sway the battle in his favor even remotely, it's a huge factorLSirLancelotDuLacl said:
If they are all summoned in different directions, it'd be impossible to petrify all of them at once. Even if she does use Pegasus, Via clashes it. While Via 100% loses, she's also dealing with anywhere between one to several thousand people. If she goes Cybele, Via to our maneuver. If she goes Pegasus, strength in numbers
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Grace started with Monarch's vote
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It is not. Among a stupidly huge amount of Servant battles, Luck swaying a battle has never been a thing. Best it does is not make you die. And that was only against one specific ability and then nowhere else. If wr can't even say what it can contribute and how, it is pretry much worthless.
If they can be summoned in different directions, which we never see. And even if they could, Iskander never shows such a tactic. And this would be assuming he even knows what Medusa can do, which he doesn't. There's no outmaneuvering when she merely has to swivel her head a bit to continue aiming and he doesn't know what to expect, gettinf petrified hella fast if he's affected. Strength in numbers doesn't matter when they could attack all day long and do squat to the Pegasus - if they clukd ever reach it, which they can't since it flies.
If they can be summoned in different directions, which we never see. And even if they could, Iskander never shows such a tactic. And this would be assuming he even knows what Medusa can do, which he doesn't. There's no outmaneuvering when she merely has to swivel her head a bit to continue aiming and he doesn't know what to expect, gettinf petrified hella fast if he's affected. Strength in numbers doesn't matter when they could attack all day long and do squat to the Pegasus - if they clukd ever reach it, which they can't since it flies.
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evade inevitable outcomes- this is incredibly useful and to say that something can't happen just because it's never happened before would be an appeal to traditionLSirLancelotDuLacl said:
We have no reason to believe they can't be based on how the single soldier was summoned. He's never fought someone that can stomp anything within line of sight, to imply he wouldn't because he hasn't before is appeal to tradition. All servants are summoned into an era with all the World's knowledge. Gorgons petrifying with eyesight in common knowledge. Again, if it could almost blitz Saber from 100m away, it can definitely outspeed Medusa's sight from relatively close. If he brings the fight to the ground and the soldiers target Medusa instead of Pegasus, thousands of pseudo servants, some of them being quoted as "stronger than Iskandar", could definitely harm Medusa.
Edit: also, I'd like to make mention that it is actually unknown how many battles Luck takes place in. While it is speculation, some fans attribute Iskandar, with D rank agility, dodging a point blank Excalibur whilst charging toward it with Via to his A+ Luck.
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Except said inevitable outcome was forcibly enforced by magic. Not just normal stuff. That luck has never shown affecting. There's no appeal to tradition, it's empirical evidence.
We have all the reason in the world to be when we don't know how far he can summon people, or the fact he has never used such a tactic and that he has no reason to having no knowledge about Medusa, and you are heavily misusing appeal to tradition. Of course we are gonna go by what we've seen him do instead of baseless speculation. And... this matters how when he doesn't know who Medusa is...?
But it didn't blitz, not as far as I remember. She just stood there because she was using Excalibur. And he can't even do that when his mount wouldn't be able to do much to the Pegasus.
We have all the reason in the world to be when we don't know how far he can summon people, or the fact he has never used such a tactic and that he has no reason to having no knowledge about Medusa, and you are heavily misusing appeal to tradition. Of course we are gonna go by what we've seen him do instead of baseless speculation. And... this matters how when he doesn't know who Medusa is...?
But it didn't blitz, not as far as I remember. She just stood there because she was using Excalibur. And he can't even do that when his mount wouldn't be able to do much to the Pegasus.
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To say it ONLY applies to magic when that isn't stated anywhere in the description for luck would be false.LSirLancelotDuLacl said:
How far away are they exactly? I have been under the impression that they were relatively close. Again, why would he use tactics specifically to counter Medusa when he has never fought Medusa? Again, as soon as her petrification is revealed, he's going to realize she's a Gorgon, and I've already explained why that would lead to evasive maneauvers. Isn't appeal to tradition believing something has to happen a certain way because that's how it's happened before? Like Iskandar not using specific tactics or luck only being able to counter one specific thing? He would once her eyes are revealed, that much is easy.
It almost reached her from 100m away within Excalibur's activation time. To move that quickly up close would surely blitz, right? Even from an over-the-shoulder perspective from a rotating camera, Iskandar starts the charge, it switches to Artorias's perspectives, and Iskandar is already on her, as though there was no in between.
Clashing Pegasus in a losing battle is the most he could do with Via, the least being overwhelmed but still fine.
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To say it would do anything it hasn't done yet ever despite how much material we have with Servants is just as false.
By SBA several hundred meters by Ionoi Hetairoi, so a good bit of distance. Problem comes when he's the one getting petrified, so I don't see the time for him to suddenly pull people to do that, when he has never done anything similar, and when we have never seen him manifest many soldiers outside and so far away in such a way. It is the mistaken belief an argument is true by the mere happenstance of things holding true before or things being done like so before. Problem here is, the way you are using it is completely disregarding empirical evidence. If Iskander has never fought this way and his personality isn't like that, why would we believe that is a likelier option? How are we gonna decide luck is a factor when it has never been shown to work or do anything in similar situations? This is not me siding with tradition, is me telling you that if the thing has never done this, despite dozens of scenarios where it could, by Occam's Razor I have all the right to assume it is a non issue because the evidence sides with my interpretation more. We aren't gonna assume stuff does things it has never shown to do.
Yet despite this Iskander, slower than Saber, could react and get out of there once he got Excaliblasted but Saber couldn't move out of the way?
The problem is when his army is entirely ineffective against a beast they can't reach and they can't hurt, especially if it does it's charge and it just plows through entire ranks of soldiers... you know, like an Anti Army NP would do. Which is what Bellerophon is.
By SBA several hundred meters by Ionoi Hetairoi, so a good bit of distance. Problem comes when he's the one getting petrified, so I don't see the time for him to suddenly pull people to do that, when he has never done anything similar, and when we have never seen him manifest many soldiers outside and so far away in such a way. It is the mistaken belief an argument is true by the mere happenstance of things holding true before or things being done like so before. Problem here is, the way you are using it is completely disregarding empirical evidence. If Iskander has never fought this way and his personality isn't like that, why would we believe that is a likelier option? How are we gonna decide luck is a factor when it has never been shown to work or do anything in similar situations? This is not me siding with tradition, is me telling you that if the thing has never done this, despite dozens of scenarios where it could, by Occam's Razor I have all the right to assume it is a non issue because the evidence sides with my interpretation more. We aren't gonna assume stuff does things it has never shown to do.
Yet despite this Iskander, slower than Saber, could react and get out of there once he got Excaliblasted but Saber couldn't move out of the way?
The problem is when his army is entirely ineffective against a beast they can't reach and they can't hurt, especially if it does it's charge and it just plows through entire ranks of soldiers... you know, like an Anti Army NP would do. Which is what Bellerophon is.
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As I've already said, if Luck where to sway the events of battle, we wouldn't notice every time, it would look like a normal battle occurrence (Iskandar dodging Excalibur). I will continue to go by the definition, which it states that it allows for the evasion of inevitable outcomes, however that may manifest
Ahhh, that distance DOES put him at a disadvantage. I've seen the petrification from the scene with Shirou, Archer, and Rin, and that honestly still looks like enough time to put some solid work in. Again, because he's never fought Medusa before. As an example, If I've never needed to get to a higher place before, why would I use a latter? Well it just so happens that I currently need to get to the roof of a house, so while I may have never used a latter before, it is specifically justified in this instance and I'd be stupid not to use a latter. It could have been a present fact in every single fight and may not have been obvious, so going with the definition would be a saved bet then going based on the number of times we've seen it in action, as that could literally be every single fight without it appearing to manifest. You assume that it simply wouldn't happen, despite this being the perfect time for something to happen (Iskandar's strategy) or for something to manifest (luck's definition).
Yes, a prime example of potentially how luck works.
If Bellerophon targets the army, Iskandar can attack unimpeded. Her focus will be on the army, leaving her wide open
Ahhh, that distance DOES put him at a disadvantage. I've seen the petrification from the scene with Shirou, Archer, and Rin, and that honestly still looks like enough time to put some solid work in. Again, because he's never fought Medusa before. As an example, If I've never needed to get to a higher place before, why would I use a latter? Well it just so happens that I currently need to get to the roof of a house, so while I may have never used a latter before, it is specifically justified in this instance and I'd be stupid not to use a latter. It could have been a present fact in every single fight and may not have been obvious, so going with the definition would be a saved bet then going based on the number of times we've seen it in action, as that could literally be every single fight without it appearing to manifest. You assume that it simply wouldn't happen, despite this being the perfect time for something to happen (Iskandar's strategy) or for something to manifest (luck's definition).
Yes, a prime example of potentially how luck works.
If Bellerophon targets the army, Iskandar can attack unimpeded. Her focus will be on the army, leaving her wide open
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Iskander leads with his army so if it's hit, he's hit too. Even if he's out charging in front of them, she can just Pegasus into him first, obliterate him, and then go on to obliterate the army.
You're also making wild theories to attribute luck with effects beyond what it has actually shown, so those arguments are pretty invalid to put it bluntly.
You're also making wild theories to attribute luck with effects beyond what it has actually shown, so those arguments are pretty invalid to put it bluntly.
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I don't think he'd lead with IH, it's primarily reserved for multiple enemies or people he perceives as "worthy". I'm not saying it wouldn't be used early, just not as a lead. It's already been clarified that Pegasus isn't strong enough to obliterate Via Expungio, only beat it, so the army could attack her directly (Iskandar would draw Medusa as close to the ground as possible, or else it'd be impossible for his troops to attack). If she focuses on the army, Iskandar attacks her while she's distracted, potentially getting in major damageMonarch Laciel said:
Okay, at its basest form, 1 inevitable attack will be evaded. That's still insanely important.
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Not really sure why discussing IH, GW blitzing (somehow) or Luck matters at all. The moment Rider reverted to Sakura, the first thing she did was remove Breaker Gorgon which instagibs anything and everything Iskandar has. Even if we entertained some absurd CIS for Medusa, she bolos him on foot, dodges his chariot, can even take control of it if she wants with Bellerophon, has a far more maneuverable mount, IH can't reach her as Lance loves to point out and Iskandar apparently needs info on her in addition to the CIS to win.
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Just for clarification, GW can't blitz without the use of Via, and that's still being debated, so that may not even be the caseAnonymousBlank said:
Ive seen Cybele in action, and it's definitely slow enough that considerable plays could be made even before turning to stone. If Iskandar is as fast as Saber on foot and Medusa outpaces on foot, Medusa on foot and GW are likely the same speed. Pegasus hasn't exactly shown to be the most maneuverable mount as opposed to GW, also at the cost of AP, Bucephalus is always an option. IH still has archers and lancers that can throw their spears, so if Iskandar can draw her closer to the ground (keeping in mind that doesn't have to be very close at all, the archers have pretty amazing range), it's a war on two fronts.
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Via isn't blitzing either. Saber was standing still, had her arms in the air and still finished a two handed swing all while GW was 5 feet away and barely made an inch in the time the swing took. There is also no mention of a speed increase when calling out the True Name unlike with its power so to say there is would be false. No stated speed amp, its slower than Saber anyway, it gets dodged by Diarmuid who is on par with Saber all adds up to Medusa casually dodges it like nobodies business.
You say its slow enough in effect but Archer couldn't move the moment it was used despite his B rank Mana, D rank MR and using KnB which boosts his MR enough to swat away hits from Medea. Iskandar is worse in every respect so the belief he has time to accomplish anything here is sorely misplaced.
Its not hard to realise its more maneuverable (and faster actually) when we can just look at its usage in other works like Prillya where Miyu can make several drive bys on Bazett with ease while Bazett can barely respond despite being able to successfully get through a hail of bloodlusted GoB, no diff Archer and Lancer, keep up with Magni Install who can fight and pressure both Heracles and Gorgon Installs, body Kuro who is able to fight Artoria and Cu Installs. Conversely, GW has shown little to no maneuverability. Bucephalus is a thing but Bellerophon comes with AOE and the pony shows no speed boost over GW either.
Archer's and spears which will do what to pegasus exactly? Normal Servant attacks aren't going to do anything to Phantasmal Dragon defense that gets amped multiple times over. By the site's rankings, it is 6-C while the vast majority of IH would only be baseline 7-A. That is a x43 difference.
You say its slow enough in effect but Archer couldn't move the moment it was used despite his B rank Mana, D rank MR and using KnB which boosts his MR enough to swat away hits from Medea. Iskandar is worse in every respect so the belief he has time to accomplish anything here is sorely misplaced.
Its not hard to realise its more maneuverable (and faster actually) when we can just look at its usage in other works like Prillya where Miyu can make several drive bys on Bazett with ease while Bazett can barely respond despite being able to successfully get through a hail of bloodlusted GoB, no diff Archer and Lancer, keep up with Magni Install who can fight and pressure both Heracles and Gorgon Installs, body Kuro who is able to fight Artoria and Cu Installs. Conversely, GW has shown little to no maneuverability. Bucephalus is a thing but Bellerophon comes with AOE and the pony shows no speed boost over GW either.
Archer's and spears which will do what to pegasus exactly? Normal Servant attacks aren't going to do anything to Phantasmal Dragon defense that gets amped multiple times over. By the site's rankings, it is 6-C while the vast majority of IH would only be baseline 7-A. That is a x43 difference.
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Saber barely finished swinging her sword, and Via started 100 m away. Any closer and Via would have demolished Saber before she could even swing Excalibur, it even says in the show and Iskandar's page he started 100 m away. Not 5 feet, more like 300 ft, and he was still right in front of her by the end of the swing.AnonymousBlank said:
Archer not moving was more likely due to fear/realization, as even Rin and Shirou could move. If she's on foot, one Via would oneshot her.
I'd argue that during the fight against Gilles, GW showed quite impressive maneuvering, less than Pegasus from the looks of it, but I'd say the gap is similar to that of the gap between Pegasus and GW's strength: not a huge gap, but a noticeable one.
Oh no, I don't believe Pseudos could even make Pegasus flinch, but if they were to hit a distacted Medusa, that might be different. As I said earlier, some of the people in IH are stronger than Iskandar, "as they are fighters who fight, and he is a king who rules". Any Pseudos attacking Pegasus don't do shit
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More on the point of Cybele, Rin was able to move a few feet forward, and Shirou was able to hurl himself slightly farther to save Rin while clear under the affects of Cybele (right arm and leg were already completely stone). Any servant class magic resistance should give the man would can blitz a Saber sword swing from ~50 m away enough time to steamroll
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Also, I'm pretty sure that the lightning from GW can very heavily damage an on foot Medusa, as it took Saber every ounce of strength to block. If GW actually hits her, which it should be able to due to comparable speed, she's dead. It's charge would've killed Lancelot with its full impact
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No, she started her swing when he was right in front of her. Him crossing that distance was almost as fast as Excalibur's activation, ie the glowing lights and not the swing.
So your reasoning for why he did nothing in the face of petrification where we saw his bosy get turned to stone from the inside out is that he was shocked and not because of the petrification technique? Yeah .... Occam's razor exists for a reason. Shirou and Rin couldn't move though. Rin saw a spike thing about to skewer her two inches from her nose and couldn't move to dodge it which is why Shirou chose to fall and knock her away, taking the hit instead.
You mean when it got caught by Caster's monster and need Saber to free it despite her having never gotten caught? Pretty sure being able to bully someone who can fight guys as agile as Saber, Cu, Diarmuid, Magni, EMIYA etc due to your speed and maneuverability rather than raw power certainly puts you considerably above someone who can't even hit these guys with sneak attacks, when they have their eyes, or needing to get saved by the people he failed to tag.
Pegasus' light (which gets amped by Bellerophon) forms a barrier around both the horse and Rider, its why the attack has AOE to begin with as the power radiating off of the pegasus is just that strong. Arrows aren't tagging the light let alone Medusa at all. So a handful of guy who are still unable to put a scratch on pegasus? Not too usful tbh.
Edit for the additional comments you didn't just edit into your previous post:
Yes, Rin technically "moved forward" also known as falling.
Never blitzed Saber at all. He crossed 100m while her eyes were closed and crossed half an inch in the time she took to swing. The only blitz happening in that fight was her bodying his mount's top speed. Somewhat equal comes from the fact he, as a Servant, shouldn't be slower than mages who can keep up with Servant speeds somewhat. That higher is due to GW being faster than he is but it still gets dodged by Servants with ease. The only thing it tagged was Lancelot who was bloodlusted at Saber which we know for a fact is why he got hit considering Diarmuid noticed and dodged easily despite habing a CS forcing him to attack Saber and was even closer to the charge than Lancelot.
The lightning is irrelevant. The damage comes from the bulls stomping people into the dirt and the wheels running over you. The lightning only amplifies the damage done by those hits, the hits that won't hit Medusa
So your reasoning for why he did nothing in the face of petrification where we saw his bosy get turned to stone from the inside out is that he was shocked and not because of the petrification technique? Yeah .... Occam's razor exists for a reason. Shirou and Rin couldn't move though. Rin saw a spike thing about to skewer her two inches from her nose and couldn't move to dodge it which is why Shirou chose to fall and knock her away, taking the hit instead.
You mean when it got caught by Caster's monster and need Saber to free it despite her having never gotten caught? Pretty sure being able to bully someone who can fight guys as agile as Saber, Cu, Diarmuid, Magni, EMIYA etc due to your speed and maneuverability rather than raw power certainly puts you considerably above someone who can't even hit these guys with sneak attacks, when they have their eyes, or needing to get saved by the people he failed to tag.
Pegasus' light (which gets amped by Bellerophon) forms a barrier around both the horse and Rider, its why the attack has AOE to begin with as the power radiating off of the pegasus is just that strong. Arrows aren't tagging the light let alone Medusa at all. So a handful of guy who are still unable to put a scratch on pegasus? Not too usful tbh.
Edit for the additional comments you didn't just edit into your previous post:
Yes, Rin technically "moved forward" also known as falling.
Never blitzed Saber at all. He crossed 100m while her eyes were closed and crossed half an inch in the time she took to swing. The only blitz happening in that fight was her bodying his mount's top speed. Somewhat equal comes from the fact he, as a Servant, shouldn't be slower than mages who can keep up with Servant speeds somewhat. That higher is due to GW being faster than he is but it still gets dodged by Servants with ease. The only thing it tagged was Lancelot who was bloodlusted at Saber which we know for a fact is why he got hit considering Diarmuid noticed and dodged easily despite habing a CS forcing him to attack Saber and was even closer to the charge than Lancelot.
The lightning is irrelevant. The damage comes from the bulls stomping people into the dirt and the wheels running over you. The lightning only amplifies the damage done by those hits, the hits that won't hit Medusa
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Even so, to be able to cross 100 m by the time the glow starts to the time the swing starts is an even shorter amount of time. Again, if he had been at something like 50m, Artoria would be roadkill
I just watched the whole scene: Rin moves forward and Shirou moves even farther forward while both under the effects of Cybele. If Shirou and Rin can move, are you implying that they have higher MR than Archer???
I don't entirely understand this section (not because it doesn't make sense, but due to my own shortcomings). Could you explain this one for me?
Ahhhh okay, I wasn't aware of the barrier. The way I've come to see it based on what I've been told here is Iskandar's victory against Medusa with Pegasus isn't likely, leaving his only chances to be Medusa on foot or Medusa using Cybele
Apologies, my next class had started, but I didn't want to lose this train of thought. I'll be sure to edit next time.
If Shirou and Rin were next to each other, and Rin fell forward, Shirou would have HAD to move in order to be in front of her, even if it was limited movement
To be able to cross 100m in, not the swing of the sword, but the activation of the power? That's even faster
The Lightning is not irrelevant, it matches Sabre's full power, which would do massive damage to Medusa if it hits. It's very clearly different damage as stated on Iskandar's page: Lightning=Sabre's full strength, and actual hit from the chariot=Oneshotting Lancelot. GW not being able to hit Medusa is still in question, so to assert the hit won't land would be Occam's
I just watched the whole scene: Rin moves forward and Shirou moves even farther forward while both under the effects of Cybele. If Shirou and Rin can move, are you implying that they have higher MR than Archer???
I don't entirely understand this section (not because it doesn't make sense, but due to my own shortcomings). Could you explain this one for me?
Ahhhh okay, I wasn't aware of the barrier. The way I've come to see it based on what I've been told here is Iskandar's victory against Medusa with Pegasus isn't likely, leaving his only chances to be Medusa on foot or Medusa using Cybele
Apologies, my next class had started, but I didn't want to lose this train of thought. I'll be sure to edit next time.
If Shirou and Rin were next to each other, and Rin fell forward, Shirou would have HAD to move in order to be in front of her, even if it was limited movement
To be able to cross 100m in, not the swing of the sword, but the activation of the power? That's even faster
The Lightning is not irrelevant, it matches Sabre's full power, which would do massive damage to Medusa if it hits. It's very clearly different damage as stated on Iskandar's page: Lightning=Sabre's full strength, and actual hit from the chariot=Oneshotting Lancelot. GW not being able to hit Medusa is still in question, so to assert the hit won't land would be Occam's
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You keep focusing on the 100m part when that isn't what is relevant. His charge is slightly slower than Excalibur's charge up but Artoria's swing is far and away faster than either. He couldn't cross an inch in the time it took her to drop her arms, ie she can just get out of the way of him. The only reason she would be roadkill is if she insisted on using Excalibur despite having the ability to dodge him.
We see Rin go to move forward and she leaves the screen with Shirou's only reaction being to call her name in worry. The next time we see her (seconds later I might add), she is on the floor due to not being able to move. Shirou moves his arms and nothing else. When he looks down at his hands, they are already turning to stone and he can only move his limbs due to the joints not being petrified yet. I never implied they have greater MR than Archer at all, you are. What I said was the group is getting petrified and the only movement they can make beyond moving joints is falling over when they actually try to move.
GW got caught by Caster's monster while Saber did not. Pegasus is able to outmaneuver and overwhelm Bazett who can fight Magni and other people stronger than Saber as well as people who are at her level.
Thats fine.
Shirou doesn't have to move forward by walking. We literally see him bodily throw himself to knock her out of the way.
The lightning is irrelevant. Medusa needs to actually get hit by the hooves and wheels for it to matter but as I have already pointed out, she is too fast for him to tag her with it. Lancelot walked off getting hit by the chariot and himnot taking the full force is even worse for your argument. The fact that Iskandar sneak attacked him, he was completely focused on Arotoria and he still couldn't even land a proper hit despite Lancelot getting stomped on 8 times but still dodges the wheels just goes to show how utterly useless this attack is. What does Occam's have to do with anything in this point?
We see Rin go to move forward and she leaves the screen with Shirou's only reaction being to call her name in worry. The next time we see her (seconds later I might add), she is on the floor due to not being able to move. Shirou moves his arms and nothing else. When he looks down at his hands, they are already turning to stone and he can only move his limbs due to the joints not being petrified yet. I never implied they have greater MR than Archer at all, you are. What I said was the group is getting petrified and the only movement they can make beyond moving joints is falling over when they actually try to move.
GW got caught by Caster's monster while Saber did not. Pegasus is able to outmaneuver and overwhelm Bazett who can fight Magni and other people stronger than Saber as well as people who are at her level.
Thats fine.
Shirou doesn't have to move forward by walking. We literally see him bodily throw himself to knock her out of the way.
The lightning is irrelevant. Medusa needs to actually get hit by the hooves and wheels for it to matter but as I have already pointed out, she is too fast for him to tag her with it. Lancelot walked off getting hit by the chariot and himnot taking the full force is even worse for your argument. The fact that Iskandar sneak attacked him, he was completely focused on Arotoria and he still couldn't even land a proper hit despite Lancelot getting stomped on 8 times but still dodges the wheels just goes to show how utterly useless this attack is. What does Occam's have to do with anything in this point?
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I will concede the point that it's not a blitz (I understand the argument now), but he undoubtedly moves faster with Via than Medusa's movement speed. If on foot Iskandar is roughly equal to Saber, GW should be roughly comparable to Medusa on foot, making Via definitely faster. She could react and attack or block, but to dodge, she'd definitely need to be faster
To address both points of the Cybele argument (to combined them back into the second point), if Shirou had just fallen in any direction, due to being to her right before she fell, and behind her and to the right after she fell, it would have been impossible for him to throw himself in front of her without moving, suggesting limited movement capabilities for a human, much less a heroic spirit.
Obviously Pegasus and Medusa have better maneuverability, but considering the amount of time Iskandar spent solely distracting the beast, I can't see it being that huge of a difference, it seems like the maneuverability difference between a normal horse and a chariot
https://youtu.be/4-AaDAR85Kw
As shown at 3:30, the lightning can be launched. Also, upon manifesting GW for the first time, Lightning shoots out from it omnidirectionally, Lightning is relevant. Actually, Lancelot not taking the full attack does little to my argument. Look at the durability difference between Lancelot and Medusa. That's a noticeable gap, meaning Iskandar may be able to oneshot Medusa even when not landing a full power attack. GW not being able to hit Medusa is still being debated, so it "not being able to hit her" is an asserted assumption which can be easily dismissed.
To address both points of the Cybele argument (to combined them back into the second point), if Shirou had just fallen in any direction, due to being to her right before she fell, and behind her and to the right after she fell, it would have been impossible for him to throw himself in front of her without moving, suggesting limited movement capabilities for a human, much less a heroic spirit.
Obviously Pegasus and Medusa have better maneuverability, but considering the amount of time Iskandar spent solely distracting the beast, I can't see it being that huge of a difference, it seems like the maneuverability difference between a normal horse and a chariot
https://youtu.be/4-AaDAR85Kw
As shown at 3:30, the lightning can be launched. Also, upon manifesting GW for the first time, Lightning shoots out from it omnidirectionally, Lightning is relevant. Actually, Lancelot not taking the full attack does little to my argument. Look at the durability difference between Lancelot and Medusa. That's a noticeable gap, meaning Iskandar may be able to oneshot Medusa even when not landing a full power attack. GW not being able to hit Medusa is still being debated, so it "not being able to hit her" is an asserted assumption which can be easily dismissed.
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But she is faster. She blitzes Cursed Arm who is faster than Saber Saber is as fast as Diarmuid who can and has dodged his charge before.
He didn't throw himself in front of her, he threw himself into her. Shirou is also the protag who spends his time doing stuff he shouldn't be able to whereas the HS that was right next to him who does not have plot amror was petrified and unable to do anything so your point is moot.
The lightning wasn't launched though? He used it on the ground beneath his chariot to destroy it to slow down Saber. That lightning didn't hamr anything around it either so its just rule of cool. You seem to have missed my point. I wasn't saying Medusa could take part of the hit and walk it off, I was saying the attack as a whole is trash when someone who wasn't even guarding against it or aware of the attack was still able to dodge part of it so Medusa who is aware of it and is trying to dodge will not get hit at all. Its most definitely asserted but it is not an assumption, it is a logical conclusion based off of facts and evidence in the material. If you disagree, bring forward your reasons for why because so far you have simply said, its still being debated when no debate is actually being had, just me repeating why it is logically sound while you attempt to dismiss it.
He didn't throw himself in front of her, he threw himself into her. Shirou is also the protag who spends his time doing stuff he shouldn't be able to whereas the HS that was right next to him who does not have plot amror was petrified and unable to do anything so your point is moot.
The lightning wasn't launched though? He used it on the ground beneath his chariot to destroy it to slow down Saber. That lightning didn't hamr anything around it either so its just rule of cool. You seem to have missed my point. I wasn't saying Medusa could take part of the hit and walk it off, I was saying the attack as a whole is trash when someone who wasn't even guarding against it or aware of the attack was still able to dodge part of it so Medusa who is aware of it and is trying to dodge will not get hit at all. Its most definitely asserted but it is not an assumption, it is a logical conclusion based off of facts and evidence in the material. If you disagree, bring forward your reasons for why because so far you have simply said, its still being debated when no debate is actually being had, just me repeating why it is logically sound while you attempt to dismiss it.
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I'm about to head to my last class of the day, so if I don't respond before grace is finished, I just wanted to say that I appreciate you debating with me like this. Your arguments are very effective and well-thought out, and most people would've taken the debate personally or given up by now
I've been meaning to look up that fight (Rider v Cursed Arm). I'll look into it and get back to you.
I'll link you the scene I watched, in the scene, Shirou gets between her and the attack. To do that would require him to have moved forward, as that angle was impossible at his original position. I'll try to find the whole scene, but from the clips I've seen, we only see Archer initially freeze up. That doesn't mean he was paralyzed, as we only got a glimpse of him standing there. It could entirely be due to the shock of realizing the shit he just stepped in, or I'm panicking and taking a second to try to formulate a plan of action. Mr. Protagonist was fine, and he's just a weaker version of Archer.
Its very clearly projected around GW in a small field, tearing up the concrete. Even so, Iskandar's pages notes specifically that Saber blocked lightning with her full strength, I just may not be looking at the right clips. It would be hard to block lightning while being trampled, right? True, GW would be easy for her to dodge, but as far as Via, I'll have to look at the clip. My calling of Occam's was not that the point was flawed, but that saying "lightning is irrelevant" without us having come to a conclusion would be an assumption.
Edit for the GW lightning point: The lightning it emits contains magical energy that Saber could only match by using every ounce of her strength. Would have killed Berserker if he was hit by the full impact of the charge
I've been meaning to look up that fight (Rider v Cursed Arm). I'll look into it and get back to you.
I'll link you the scene I watched, in the scene, Shirou gets between her and the attack. To do that would require him to have moved forward, as that angle was impossible at his original position. I'll try to find the whole scene, but from the clips I've seen, we only see Archer initially freeze up. That doesn't mean he was paralyzed, as we only got a glimpse of him standing there. It could entirely be due to the shock of realizing the shit he just stepped in, or I'm panicking and taking a second to try to formulate a plan of action. Mr. Protagonist was fine, and he's just a weaker version of Archer.
Its very clearly projected around GW in a small field, tearing up the concrete. Even so, Iskandar's pages notes specifically that Saber blocked lightning with her full strength, I just may not be looking at the right clips. It would be hard to block lightning while being trampled, right? True, GW would be easy for her to dodge, but as far as Via, I'll have to look at the clip. My calling of Occam's was not that the point was flawed, but that saying "lightning is irrelevant" without us having come to a conclusion would be an assumption.
Edit for the GW lightning point: The lightning it emits contains magical energy that Saber could only match by using every ounce of her strength. Would have killed Berserker if he was hit by the full impact of the charge
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No problem, its fun when there is more back and forth. Also sorry if I come off as aggressive.
Pretty sure this is still Shinji Rider too since its been over a day at least since Saber bodied her. Doesn't make sense for it to be Sakura Rider when he would insist on having Rider back as soon as possible. Shinji Rider would also be comparable to held back Cu who was able to casually smack Cursed Arm around which is consistent with Archer also being able to keep up with and fight Cursed Arm in the forest even with the shadow tagging him. The only issue would be Shirou Saber but that is easily explained due to his enormous agility (not the stat by the way) advantage over her and keep away tactics.
This is the one I watched. Shirou knocks back Rin as seen with the distance between her and the ripple being only inches while she is on all fours but when he saves her she has clearly been pushed back and to the side.
Saber never blocked the lightning. Those were her thoughts on the lightning when he rolled up at the docks iirc. SHe was referring to the amount of magical energy in it being equivalent to her full force hits. I don't think Occam's applies at all here. I think you might be thinking of Hitchen's to dismiss my point but eh, I don't really care too much.
Pretty sure this is still Shinji Rider too since its been over a day at least since Saber bodied her. Doesn't make sense for it to be Sakura Rider when he would insist on having Rider back as soon as possible. Shinji Rider would also be comparable to held back Cu who was able to casually smack Cursed Arm around which is consistent with Archer also being able to keep up with and fight Cursed Arm in the forest even with the shadow tagging him. The only issue would be Shirou Saber but that is easily explained due to his enormous agility (not the stat by the way) advantage over her and keep away tactics.
This is the one I watched. Shirou knocks back Rin as seen with the distance between her and the ripple being only inches while she is on all fours but when he saves her she has clearly been pushed back and to the side.
Saber never blocked the lightning. Those were her thoughts on the lightning when he rolled up at the docks iirc. SHe was referring to the amount of magical energy in it being equivalent to her full force hits. I don't think Occam's applies at all here. I think you might be thinking of Hitchen's to dismiss my point but eh, I don't really care too much.
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Oh no I think you applied a healthy amount of aggression for debate. It was conducted very professionally, and the result is quite a few of my arguments were dismantled.
I'M DUMB I JUST REALIZED THAT MEDUSA HAS TWO KEYSƒÿ½
Same. My point is that, with the way they are positioned, if Rin has fallen forward on all fours, Shirou throwing himself left or forward would result in not even touching her. Him throwing himself left and forward would result in her moving in the same direction, not just left. Shirou not only sends Rin only left, but he is also in between the attack and Rin
I see the confusion now. There are actually two aspects of lightning to the chariot: lightning underneath as you said, and a field of lightning around the chariot, both manifestations of Zeus. Seeing as Via is his fastest attack, how close do you think he could get to hitting Medusa with Via? Do you think the lightning field could connect?
A large war chariot lead by two Divine Bulls of great strength. Larger than the average truck, the bulls, and the chariot stride across lightning strikes, manifestations of Zeus, allowing it to move through the air just as easily as across the ground. Originally an offering to Zeus from King Gordius, Alexander claimed them for himself by cutting the knot with his sword. He can summon them whenever he desires by cleaving the air with his sword. The chariot's charge engulfs it in lightning, and it tramples and crushes anyone it hits. Its form changes to accommodate its terrain better.
One more question, because I'm starting to have my doubts: is it even possible for Iskandar to win here?
I'M DUMB I JUST REALIZED THAT MEDUSA HAS TWO KEYSƒÿ½
Same. My point is that, with the way they are positioned, if Rin has fallen forward on all fours, Shirou throwing himself left or forward would result in not even touching her. Him throwing himself left and forward would result in her moving in the same direction, not just left. Shirou not only sends Rin only left, but he is also in between the attack and Rin
I see the confusion now. There are actually two aspects of lightning to the chariot: lightning underneath as you said, and a field of lightning around the chariot, both manifestations of Zeus. Seeing as Via is his fastest attack, how close do you think he could get to hitting Medusa with Via? Do you think the lightning field could connect?
A large war chariot lead by two Divine Bulls of great strength. Larger than the average truck, the bulls, and the chariot stride across lightning strikes, manifestations of Zeus, allowing it to move through the air just as easily as across the ground. Originally an offering to Zeus from King Gordius, Alexander claimed them for himself by cutting the knot with his sword. He can summon them whenever he desires by cleaving the air with his sword. The chariot's charge engulfs it in lightning, and it tramples and crushes anyone it hits. Its form changes to accommodate its terrain better.
One more question, because I'm starting to have my doubts: is it even possible for Iskandar to win here?
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