[R2M1] 1st Generals of Grove Tournament - Kaint vs. Clover (4-0-0)

[ExSENNA]

Welcome to the First Match of the Second Round of the 1st Generals of Grove Tournament! (Bracket) (Event Leaderboard)

On the blue corner, we have Kaint, submitted by @MintyBoi1!
On the red corner, we have Clover, submitted by @SSB64!
Duel 9, let's go!

Kaint is 750 Tons. Clover is 12 Tons. Kaint has a 62.5x AP Advantage.
Kaint has Class 50, Clover has Class 100/M LS. Clover has the LS Advantage.

Supreme Tournament Kaint is used.
Genocide Route Clover is used and determination restricted
Anything above 8-A is restricted.
Speed is equalized.
Starting distance is 7 meters.

Kaint:
Clover:4
Incon:

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

rip Clover

 

[MintyBoi1]

Yeah, even with upscaling, Kaint scales so far above Clover plus he has years of training and assasination on him plus skill scaling to Cinner who has his martial arts and weapon skill. Also force fields and electricity/paralysis. Kaint stomps here.

 

[SSB64]

rip Clover

To be fair, it's actually not that bad since Kaint doesn't have any resistance to Soul based attacks, meaning that Kaint is just as likely to get one shot by Clover as vice versa, especially since both start at range (Meaning that the Chakram and SOUL Cannon are viable wincons for both sides.)

That being said however, it seems like Clover has the edge agility wise on account of being capable of dodging Danmaku from several different foes on many occasions. Furthermore, while the Fear Inducement from Kaint does have potential to be dangerous, Clover wouldn't exactly be affected too much. After all, not only is Clover so blinded with rage so as to not process things rationally, and not only is this Clover specifically desensitized to killing things, but the big one that requires a bit of nuance, Clover would not know that their SAVE and LOAD function has been disabled for the fight, meaning that Clover would be falsely reassured that they'd come back after death, so I doubt that Kaint could paralyze Clover in place with that.

Add on the Coffee and SOUL Dash speed amps and intangibility, the Golden Pear granting Invulnerability for a pear of hits (So even a Chakram would need three hits to kill Clover at worst), and the fact that Clover has experience against foes who are faster and stronger than them, and this matchup could shape up to be a decent but closer one than people initially realize.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Ehh, if Clover's SOUL hax is anything like every other monster's SOUL hax then it's still affected by conventional durability, so at best it'll deal chip damage.

 

[MintyBoi1]

To be fair, it's actually not that bad since Kaint doesn't have any resistance to Soul based attacks, meaning that Kaint is just as likely to get one shot by Clover as vice versa, especially since both start at range (Meaning that the Chakram and SOUL Cannon are viable wincons for both sides.

That being said however, it seems like Clover has the edge agility wise on account of being capable of dodging Danmaku from several different foes before. Furthermore, while the Fear Inducement from Kaint does have potential to be dangerous, Clover wouldn't exactly be affected too much. After all, not only is Clover so blinded with rage so as to not process things rationally, and not only is this Clover specifically desensitized to killing things, but the big one that requires about of nuance, Clover would not know that their SAVE and LOAD function has been disabled for the fight, meaning that Clover would be falsely reassured that they'd come back after death, so I doubt that Kaint could paralyze Clover in place with that.

Add on the Coffee and SOUL Dash speed amps and intangibility, the Golden Pear granting Invulnerability for a pear of hits (So even a Chakram would need three hits to kill Clover at worst), and the fact that Clover has experience against goes who are faster and stronger than them, and this matchup could shape up to be a decent but closer than people initially realize.

How good is this Soul manipulation? Shouldn’t Clover still be too weak, I don’t see durability negation on the profile so I can’t tell. Either way, Kaint has some strong willpower and has better odds at this range with skill/experience and throwing weapons he can control rather than a gun he has to aim.

Agility is whatever, Undertale has a ton of Danmaku but Kaint fought Cinner who can fight mid air and perform mid air jumps so I don’t think it’s great of a difference as you think. Especially since UT attacks are usually pretty choreographed meanwhile if Clover finds him between the chakrams, he’s suddenly electrocuted to death. Fear Aura point is fair.

The chakrams can cause multiple shocks in short time like they did to Cinner so that’s at least 2 basically free hits for Kaint plus the time he gets while Clover’s paralyzed. And Kaint has the same thing about fighting those stronger and faster than him on his profile.

 

[SSB64]

Ehh, if Clover's SOUL hax is anything like every other monster's SOUL hax then it's still affected by conventional durability, so at best it'll deal chip damage.

I think that that was debunked, was it not?

Also, you'd have to explain how things like a Cowboy Hat, Tutu, or Bandana translates to blocking attacks to the disconnected SOUL for that to even be viable. They'd simply reinforce the SOUL, especially since the SOUL, when in combat, acts independently of Clover's body (Shown when Clover fought Asgore, for example.)

 

[SSB64]

Agility is whatever, Undertale has a ton of Danmaku but Kaint fought Cinner who can fight mid air and perform mid air jumps so I don’t think it’s great of a difference as you think. Especially since UT attacks are usually pretty choreographed meanwhile if Clover finds him between the chakrams, he’s suddenly electrocuted to death. Fear Aura point is fair.

The chakrams can cause multiple shocks in short time like they did to Cinner so that’s at least 2 basically free hits for Kaint plus the time he gets while Clover’s paralyzed. And Kaint has the same thing about fighting those stronger and faster than him on his profile.

I want to mention that, while this is a little bit of a stretch, game mechanics (Which would include invincibility frames, so Clover would only get hit once, backed up by how Sans can abuse them in the canon game), are generally canon. On top of that, they've faced an opponent in the Vengeance Route named Ceroba (The same Ceroba in Pacifist, but with a more killer moveset.) This same Ceroba could shower over half of the entire field with bullets, stat reducing beams, and most importantly, over half the battlefield being covered in paralysis inducing effect. Coincidentally, this is also the one fight where the battlefield is wide open compared to every other major Boss in the Vengeance Route. That sounds better on paper for Kaint, but that actually means that the amount of stuff Clover would have to dodge would go up on account of the attacks needing to stretch out in a higher range to be effective. Not to mention, while not immune to paralysis, Clover does have a resistance since he can also take said paralysis attacks from Ceroba and recover after about a second, so Clover would, at worst, get hit once,the paralysed for a moment as the Invincibility Frames kick in,band then get out of the way.

All of this, BTW, being done when Clover was at LV 10 without the SOUL Dash.

Given that Zenith Martlet could also fire dozens of attacks, including some spawning right on top of Clover, with reckless abandon, and Clover could dodge her, two Chakrams at a time aren't exactly going to do much in the battle.

 

[MintyBoi1]

I want to mention that, while this is a little bit of a stretch, game mechanics (Which would include invincibility frames, so Clover would only get hit once, backed up by how Sans can abuse them in the canon game), are generally canon. On top of that, they've faced an opponent in the Vengeance Route named Ceroba (The same Ceroba in Pacifist, but with a more killer moveset.) This same Ceroba could shower over half of the entire field with bullets, stat reducing beams, and most importantly, over half the battlefield being covered in paralysis inducing effect. Coincidentally, this is also the one fight where the battlefield is wide open compared to every other major Boss in the Vengeance Route. That sounds better on paper for Kaint, but that actually means that the amount of stuff Clover would have to dodge would go up on account of the attacks needing to stretch out in a higher range to be effective. Not to mention, while not immune to paralysis, Clover does have a resistance since he can also take said paralysis attacks from Ceroba and recover after about a second, so Clover would, at worst, get hit once,the paralysed for a moment as the Invincibility Frames kick in,band then get out of the way.

All of this, BTW, being done when Clover was at LV 10 without the SOUL Dash.

Given that Zenith Martlet could also fire dozens of attacks, including some spawning right on top of Clover, with reckless abandon, and Clover could dodge her, two Chakrams at a time aren't exactly going to do much in the battle.

Where is this resistance on the profile? And Kaint isn’t limited to just range. Sure he prefers safer engagement, but he could always just run up and cut up Clover. Throw a chakram and stab him from behind where he can’t see as well. We’re asking for a lot out of Clover with such a huge AP gap when there’s still no dura neg or even soul manipulation for some reason on his profile. And Kaint has great acrobatics as well as forcefields.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

I think that that was debunked, was it not?

Also, you'd have to explain how things like a Cowboy Hat, Tutu, or Bandana translates to blocking attacks to the disconnected SOUL for that to even be viable. They'd simply reinforce the SOUL, especially since the SOUL, when in combat, acts independently of Clover's body (Shown when Clover fought Asgore, for example.)

Seems like it was never applied, and if it was, we went back on it, as evident by the Monster Physiology page.
UTY itself doesn't have the best case for it either, since Clover's Friendliness Pellets are very much affected by DEF (They deal less damage to Martlet than to Axis).

Plus, you need indication that Clover's Justice Blast/Friendliness Pellets even one-shot in the first place, since you "can hit a soul in more ways than just instantly destroying it."

 

[ExSENNA]

by the way winner of this match guarantees to get at least bronze medal

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Clover will probably CHECK Kaint once the fight starts, so they'll know that Kaint is wayyy stronger than them (Probably like 999 ATK and DEF), so I can honestly see Clover go for a sleep hax win or something of that nature. Their absurd stamina/willpower might (And this is a big might) also let them survive like 1 attack from Kaint.

That's honestly the only way I can see Clover winning.

 

[Froggytron]

Following

 

[SSB64]

Where is this resistance on the profile? And Kaint isn’t limited to just range. Sure he prefers safer engagement, but he could always just run up and cut up Clover. Throw a chakram and stab him from behind where he can’t see as well. We’re asking for a lot out of Clover with such a huge AP gap when there’s still no dura neg or even soul manipulation for some reason on his profile. And Kaint has great acrobatics as well as forcefields.

It doesn't seem to be on his profile, but if you watch someone play the Vengeance Route Ceroba fight, he gets hit by the effect, only gets stunned for about a second, and is then able to move.

Also, interesting play to say that Kaint could get up close. I say this because if Clover has a SOUL Cannon charge up and then fires it close range, if Kaint's barrier can't resist Soul attacks, then Kaint will be hard pressed to survive it considering the sheer speed difference between Clover themself, and their own SOUL Cannon.

Clover will probably CHECK Kaint once the fight starts, so they'll know that Kaint is wayyy stronger than them (Probably like 999 ATK and DEF), so I can honestly see Clover go for a sleep hax win or something of that nature. Their absurd stamina/willpower might (And this is a big might) also let them survive like 1 attack from Kaint.

That's honestly the only way I can see Clover winning.

Hm. Let's see.....

Clover checks Kaint's stats and sees that they're absolutely ridiculous compared to their own. Kaint attacks with his Chakrams which Clover is able to dodge relatively easily. Then, to help them out, they eat the Golden Pear, allowing them to survive an additional two hits against Kaint.

If the Willpower thing works, Clover could actually survive 3 attacks from Kaint instead of just 1.

 

[MintyBoi1]

It doesn't seem to be on his profile, but if you watch someone play the Vengeance Route Ceroba fight, he gets hit by the effect, only gets stunned for about a second, and is then able to move.

Also, interesting play to say that Kaint could get up close. I say this because if Clover has a SOUL Cannon charge up and then fires it close range, if Kaint's barrier can't resist Soul attacks, then Kaint will be hard pressed to survive it considering the sheer speed difference between Clover themself, and their own SOUL Cannon.



Hm. Let's see.....

Clover checks Kaint's stats and sees that they're absolutely ridiculous compared to their own. Kaint attacks with his Chakrams which Clover is able to dodge relatively easily. Then, to help them out, they eat the Golden Pear, allowing them to survive an additional two hits against Kaint.

If the Willpower thing works, Clover could actually survive 3 attacks from Kaint instead of just 1.

That could just be the stun’s effect. Kaint’s only lasts around a few seconds. A statement or some kind of break free mechanic would be better for proving outright resistance.

If Clover can’t resist paralysis and lacks durability, is there any way he gets to activate Justice Mode? Also can it pass through shields in game. Soul attacks in SDS are intangible which is how they bypass force fields.

So can Clover deal sufficient damage to Kaint’s soul to win? Either way, I think Kaint has enough skill to make it it through this. And he has heat resistance hotter than lava so Justice Mode might not work is Clover even gets to use it. Kaint likes instant kills like slitting the throat, so I don’t know if healing is that good.

Clover still has no way to anticipate Electrical Arc which mean the electricity will go too fast for them to dodge (Clover caps at Supersonic+)

 

[SSB64]

Clover still has no way to anticipate Electrical Arc which mean the electricity will go too fast for them to dodge (Clover caps at Supersonic+)

I mean, speed is equalized, is it not?

 

[MintyBoi1]

I mean, speed is equalized, is it not?

Not attack speed. Maybe it should be on the profile, but Kaint’s attacks are lightning speed. I just didn’t put it that way since he scales anyway.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Not attack speed. Maybe it should be on the profile, but Kaint’s attacks are lightning speed. I just didn’t put it that way since he scales anyway.

I do believe attack speed is reduced by the same multiplier as other speeds.

The combat speed of that faster character is assumed to be equalized to the combat speed of the slower character. Every other speed the faster character has is reduced by the same multiplier. This includes the speed of any attacks, projectiles, reactions, perception, flight, etc.

As for the other points; Clover does start in Justice Mode, but Kaint can probably just do this to their Justice Beam if they use it.
That's why I believe Clover's sleep hax (Which only takes two turns in-game) is their wincon here.

 

[MintyBoi1]

Yeah, it’s hard to say. Kaint attacks at lightning speed but it’s also his combat speed. Saying everything’s equal is easier. I remember sleep hax being dismissed here though. It was just never applied for some reason. But Clover will still have very little room to become aware of Electrical Arc and respond. The first time he threw against Cinner, he only activated electrical arc from behind.

 

[SSB64]

Not attack speed. Maybe it should be on the profile, but Kaint’s attacks are lightning speed.

Replace when this man says "Geodude" with "Clover"

 

[SSB64]

But Clover will still have very little room to become aware of Electrical Arc and respond. The first time he threw against Cinner, he only activated electrical arc from behind.

Actually, attacking from behind shouldn't be an issue.for Clover. As was mentioned in Clover Vs Yarrow, omnidirectional attacks are nothing new to them. This should logically apply to attacks that come from behind too.

 

[MintyBoi1]

So Frisk’s sleep manipulation is gone now. Is Clover’s any different or should it just be removed too since it’s basically SI influencing someone already sleepy to go to sleep?

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

So Frisk’s sleep manipulation is gone now. Is Clover’s any different or should it just be removed too since it’s basically SI influencing someone already sleepy to go to sleep?

It is the latter (More blatantly so too).

rip Clover

 

[MintyBoi1]

So that’s two for Kaint

 

[Javenplayz253]

Kaint fra

 

[Rayfire]

I’ll vote kaint as well, although if something big comes up for clover then I might retract it. SDS is pretty well-known for having characters with high skill, and that itself is tough to beat especially when kaint has a massive AP advantage here that will basically end the fight if he even grazes clover here.

 

[SSB64]

by the way winner of this match guarantees to get at least bronze medal

Feel crazy to be one fight away on both characters I have here, yet I lose both of them.

Weirdly, I expected Clover to make it farther than this.