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Questioning many things about Joker and Persona 5

Eficiente

Eficiente

He/Him
VS Battles
Thread Moderator
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(Mostly coming from this thread, others have the same problems but I'm more informed in that one. I made this thread staff only because all discussions I and others gave to certain Persona supporters there were impossible due to how fallacious and bias they were. So this avoids wasting time for me and any other users interested on the matter.) Undone by Wokista (talk) 01:00, April 9, 2020 (UTC)

I want staff to explain me the following stuff as I find completely insufficient the justifications I saw for them before.

  • Ailments using Information Manipulation in all targets: Not in profiles but claimed. Apparently as Joker can target beings partially composed of informatio* which means he uses Information Manip on all targets and they need to resist that hax to resist what Joker is doing. The problem here is as clear as it looks, Joker is using that power in targets made of info, in others it's just Mind Manip.
  • Not purely durability-ignoring Hax functioning to the highest displayed degree regardless of the key used: This is now in the profile and it literally says "regardless of the key used in a match". The logic behind it is that they are visibly unchanged since their first appearance and so Power Null, Attack Reflection, Invulnerability and Absorption always work on Low 2-C stuff.
  • Joker's death hax being one of his most commonly-used spells. He'll definitely try it early into a match*: Because "Joker is an RPG main character. His first moves are unprovable because RPG game mechanics inherently do not adhere to actual real-time combat. That's why his first moves are decided by other factors, such as his personality, level of intelligence, and familiarity."
  • As soon as Joker feels a foe trying to attack him he switches his skills to become immune to the attack***: Because it takes him a thought and he's a genius**, just that.
    • Same case with amping his reactions, Joker just can't be touched.
  • Joker's deathhax working on spiritual beings: Not in profiles but claimed. How can this be hax if the dead beings are already dead? Something like this was going to be clarified when rewording the Resistance page, then the wording I wanna to use was changed in the last minute as people was believed to not be dumb enough. So, how can Joker Death Hax dead beings with higher stats than him via being able to destroy dead beings with comparable stats to him?
  • What are Joker's standard tactics?; What can be assumed to be his standard tactics?: Definitely something I want in his profile, as it currently isn't then anyone can claim anything and, well, one thing leads to another.
 
Just my two cents, as I'm not super knowledgeable:

  • I agree on this. That's just NPI.
  • I assume this is about the "immunities", as they are listed in-game, absorption, and such, which would be 100% fine if this is shown to work against enemies way stronger than the character. Which it is as far as I am aware.
  • Uh. From what I can tell, you're railing against the lack of opening/standard moves for RPG characters, which you can't really just ignore because that explanation is totally reasonable.
  • Can't say much about this, although that is the reasonable response for someone in his situation.
  • See above.
  • Death hax can work on beings that are already dead. See: literally everyone with above-baseline death hax. The only way that doesn't work is if the spirits weren't actually dead for whatever reason, which they most likely aren't. Also, death hax is hax, and has literally nothing to do with AP and AP does not affect it in any way.
  • You can't have standard tactics for an RPG character, unless you want to say that every single person who plays him does that particular thing, which is something that you can't prove and even then a single person doing something different would completely tear it down. This is just not an issue in any way, shape, or form.
Also, on a related note, this has no reason to be staff-only whatsoever.
 
Why is this staff only

Info manip: Yeah I agree

Smurfy stuff: Yeah this kinda makes no sense to me either. You need to have showings of early game joker affecting these types of dudes to claim that's a thing early game joker can do. It doesn't matter that a far superior joker is using these same spells. They're being cast by someone much more powerful with a much more powerful persona.

Death manip: maybe that's a story thing idk

Switching skills to get resistances: Isn't this a really central part of the game, and a thing he has powers to figure out to do? Seems kinda commonsense

Switching to dura neg when normal attacks don't work: Again this seems commonsense and is also central to the game's combat. Doesn't seem like a stretch.

Death manip on spiritual beings: How can death manip work on things that are concepts and as such shouldn't even be dead or alive? Sometimes fiction is just like that, if he can deathhax spirits he can deathhax spirits.


What are Joker's standard tactics?; What can be assumed to be his standard tactics?: Well I don't know maybe he does story things
 
Why is this staff only? This has no reason to be.

You're locking out a good chunk of the Persona supporters by doing this for no reason.
 
"(Mostly coming from this thread, others have the same problems but I'm more informed in that one. I made this thread staff only because all discussions I and others gave to certain Persona supporters there were impossible due to how fallacious and bias they were. So this avoids wasting time for me and any other users interested on the matter.) "

This kinda doesn't work when most of the persona people aren't staff. Not sure why you're expecting concrete answers from people who may or may not know the verse
 
Seeing as making random revisions staff only literally just because you don't want to deal with some of the opposition is not at all standard procedure, I'll be moving this over to a more normal board. There's literally no other way for you to even get answers for most of these.
 
Solacis, Milly, Grath and Sera should be requested as they know way more on the verse than I do. If anything, the people you seem to distrust are the ones who can best answer this as they are the ones who have gone through the entire franchise with a fine tooth comb and are the ones who helped fix up the Persona files in the first place. Regardless I agree with the second point regarding the Higher-D shit, but I could careless about anything else as I simply not in the mindset to deal with a thread that will get heated.

EDIT: Scratch that, I have two issues. Regarding the fouth point, yes, that's literally a primary mechanic of the game. Joker switches Persona's mid battle in order to best counter the abilities of his foes. He sees an opponent attacking him with Fire, he'll switch to a Persona who repels, resists or nulls fire. Same for other abilities. This is not outlandish whatsoever. The 5th point is also just common sense. My regular attacks are failing? Then I am going to switch to a Persona who uses unconventional attacks or moves that bypass physical differences. Seems pretty natural for not just Joker, but almost any fictional character. This is most certainly true for not just Joker, but any Persona protag from 3 onward.
 
why does everyone call me Garth

I'll try and respond to all of this when I can on what I agree and disagree with. Technically, Solacis would probably be the most knowledgeable on this, since he's practically been the head of all the major revisions.
 
Hl3 or bust said:
You can't have standard tactics for an RPG character, unless you want to say that every single person who plays him does that particular thing, which is something that you can't prove and even then a single person doing something different would completely tear it down. This is just not an issue in any way, shape, or form.
Click to expand...
This is by far my biggest problem on the matter due to the way it was wanked.

Wokistan said:
Switching skills to get resistances: Isn't this a really central part of the game, and a thing he has powers to figure out to do? Seems kinda commonsense
Click to expand...
Well, I believe I didn't I expressed myself properly there. This is not Joker switching to something that would make him resist something better to figure out a better strategy, he's being claimed to be unable to be hit or harmed by anything because he will always switch to something that would allow him that despite never showing anything like it. That's like a PKMN trainer switching to have immunities everytime a foe is about or is using any attack. Should the anime and manga of PKMN not exist, would anyone claim this to be done?

Wokistan said:
Switching to dura neg when normal attacks don't work: Again this seems commonsense and is also central to the game's combat. Doesn't seem like a stretch.
Click to expand...
My bad there, I wanted to question something different (Joker specifically using Death-hax out of the rest of his hax when regular attacks don't work, not him using hax when attacks don't work). I didn't copy the comment I used completely and it ended up like that. Edit: Nevermind that, the third point already covers it, I got that part disordered.

Wokistan said:
Death manip: maybe that's a story thing idk

What are Joker's standard tactics?; What can be assumed to be his standard tactics?: Well I don't know maybe he does story things
Click to expand...
He doesn't show anything, making it all interpretable.

Wokistan said:
This kinda doesn't work when most of the persona people aren't staff. Not sure why you're expecting concrete answers from people who may or may not know the verse
Click to expand...
I waited for them to add their claims in Joker's profile to make it clean as they inspire me 0 trust. I put to question the things I don't believe and they said over and over again and wanna to hear staff for more common sense than knowledge on the verse. Also I saw the knowledge users only after making the thread.

Dragonmasterxyz said:
If anything, the people you seem to distrust are the ones who can best answer this as they are the ones who have gone through the entire franchise with a fine tooth comb and are the ones who helped fix up the Persona files in the first place.
Click to expand...
I predict to not hear anything new from them, but ok.

Dragonmasterxyz said:
Regarding the fouth point, yes, that's literally a primary mechanic of the game. Joker switches Persona's mid battle in order to best counter the abilities of his foes. He sees an opponent attacking him with Fire, he'll switch to a Persona who repels, resists or nulls fire. Same for other abilities. This is not outlandish whatsoever.
Click to expand...
When you put it like that I absolutely agree with it. I would like to see you claim it like they do tho, Joker being untouchable and switching at the exact moment he sees something he doesn't like to be immune, as in him doing it before a foe may even finish its own attack, or before it may even start. Then if the foe aims to use other attack Joker makes himself immune to it too, and so on.

As I see it, and I dare anyone to blame me for it, what Joker does is a strategy. He aims for the most optimum result with the most advantageous things going for him, not all of them nor perfection. He may switch to be immune to fire after being hit by it, or not, maybe his current strategy doesn't need to be changed. The latter sentence is just insanity to what was claimed Joker does.

Dragonmasterxyz said:
The 5th point is also just common sense.
Click to expand...
As said before, I wrote it wrong, I'll change it soon.
 
<I predict to not hear anything new from them but okay

Already can tell this won't go well.
 
A huge issue I have is that a lot of people can pick Joker's starting move to whatever he wants it to be, despite nothing implying what he will start off with. If anything, he likely starts with Arsene with these specific moves. And while revisiting this scene later in the game which lets you actually change Personas, we should probably take the first scene as more somewhat canonical due to Arsene still showing up in the revisit scene before and after the quick fight. I just don't thihk we should allow people to pick off what Joker will immediately begin with as it always goes in his favor for whatever reason.
 
I am so tired of debating this with you, but for the sake of clearing it up, here are the explanations:

  • Shadows are made of mind, soul, information, and non-standard matter that don't obey the laws of physics. Affecting them with attacks is NPI, affecting them with Ailments is mind, soul and information manipulation. That is literally it.
  • Hax does not rely on AP or tier whatsoever. Tiers do not exist inside the source material. Tetrakarn is usable as early as Futaba's Palace, which is High 4-C. It does not scale off of levels, stats or anything else. It is just a hax spell that never changes yet still works perfectly against Low 2-C enemies. Therefore, as far as Tetrakarn is concerned, the highest displayed feats are of it working on Low 2-C attacks. So even in a High 4-C key, it would still have Low 2-C potency, because that's the limits of the spell. That's how hax works. You can't apply arbitrary limits based on tiers when tiers don't exist in-universe, especially when no limits of any kind concerning its potency have been displayed throughout the entire game.
  • The line of logic I used to explain why Joker would go to death-hax is exceedingly simple. He usually opens with guns or normal attack spells, as I've also already explained. When those don't work, he'll know that Kirby is too durable for his normal attacks. At that point, his cheapest durability-bypassing option is Hama/Mudo, which are death spells.
  • This is a standard strategy in-game, limited only by the turn-based system. Joker's main strategy is reacting to the opponent's abilities and switching to a Persona that can keep him entirely safe from any specific attack. Nobody is saying that Joker switches before the opponent attacks. That's your own misconception. We're saying that he switches as soon as he sees the attack coming. The same goes for amping his reaction speed with Third Eye. He learns to use it in that way for the exact reason of keeping up with speeds he's not normally able to.
  • This is common sense.
  • His opening moves are as I've said above, with gunfire or offensive spells. He uses them to gauge his opponent. From there, his strategy is as I've also said above: react to the enemy attacks and switch to a Persona that keeps him safe from it. Heal if needed, buff if needed. If attacks don't work, he uses death-hax for a decisive win. If death-hax doesn't work, he'll use ailments. That's it.
 
DatOneWeeb said:
A huge issue I have is that a lot of people can pick Joker's starting move to whatever he wants it to be, despite nothing implying what he will start off with. If anything, he likely starts with Arsene with these specific moves. And while revisiting this scene later in the game which lets you actually change Personas, we should probably take the first scene as more somewhat canonical due to Arsene still showing up in the revisit scene before and after the quick fight. I just don't thihk we should allow people to pick off what Joker will immediately begin with as it always goes in his favor for whatever reason.
Click to expand...
There is no reason to assume that Joker starts with Arsene. The entire point of the Wild Card is to always be using different and stronger Personas as much as possible. The most we can assume is that he'll start with Curse spells, since those are what he's most attuned to, but not Arsene specifically. Not that it's too important regardless, since he switches so frequently it doesn't really matter.
 
Damn you Sol, you keep ninja'ing me.

Regardless, it's not as if their initial Persona is the one the user starts with. If you look at the animations and movies, that's clear proof of it. In fact, Makoto Yuki in one of the scenes ends you summoning Jack Frost instead of Orpheus, their initial Persona's aren't always their first move.

Joker switching to his Persona's to disadvantage his opponent is literally something someone with half a brain could do. Why would you use fire on a water type when you know you can an electric type that resists it's primary attack, and can strike its weakness? It's not something Brainiac or Ultron level, it's literally just simple thinking. I'm not sure why you're under the impression Joker is untouchable, if he was blitzed there's no way he's switching Persona's in time. He has very clear weaknesses, they're just very hard to exploit.

And my last gripe, NPI. No. Not at all. Joker is explicitly stated to harm, destroy, and interact with souls, mind, and information. This isn't just NPI, because even other Persona users can hit Persona's, aka Persona 4 Arena. Just because you can hit intangibles doesn't mean you can hit something like a soul, mind, data, etc, and that's what decides this. Joker is able to hit these things full blown, no doubt about it.
 
Well... Sol has already responded to all of this, but I'll try giving my viewpoint on this if possible. While I do genuinely believe Sol to be the most knowledgeable on the verse out of the supporters, I also understand that a lot of people don't trust his word as gospel on Persona. Especially since this whole discussion started as a result of people believing he and some other people were wanking. So, here's my take on everything, if it's any help.

> Ailments using Information Manipulation in all targets:

Sol is correct on this one. Throughout the whole of the Persona series, it has been stated and shown on many occasions that Shadows (and by consequence Personas, who are stated to be just tamed versions of shadows) are embodiments of the user's mind and soul. It's also stated on occasion (albeit far less frequently, such as in the P3 Club Book) that shadows are formed partially out of pure information. So affecting shadows should require forms of mind, soul, and information manipulation. It's been mentioned that this should only be NPI when they attack shadows, but it logically should be all 3 of those + NPI. Though it's been mentioned that this is not yet on the profiles; in which case, it should not be used in Versus Debates until it is accepted in a CRT.

> Not purely durability-ignoring Hax functioning to the highest displayed degree regardless of the key used:

I apologise in advance, Sol, for likely bringing this discussion along for longer than reasonable. However, I actually have to agree with the opposition here. While it may technically be the same skill throughout the whole game, all of the Persona skills (even the most basic ones) visibly get far stronger the further in the game they are used from an in-verse perspective. An Agi spell used at the beginning of the game might only be able to decently harm a Pixie, but an Agi used at the end of the game (albeit, not by much) can literally noticably harm Yaldabaoth. The idea that these skills don't get stronger as the game progresses is not particularly reasonable. Also, the idea that we can't apply arbitrary tiering to defensive hax is incorrect. As an example of this, we can look at Bayonetta, who has defensive hax up to High 4-C. This is because this is the highest the skill demonstrates at the point at which she's able to use it. So versions of Persona skills used later in the game visibly are far stronger than they are earlier in the game, even when you separate it from simply statistics. As such, it'd be a double standard to suggest that this suddenly wouldn't apply to their defensive hax.

> Joker's death hax being one of his most commonly-used spells. He'll definitely try it early into a match

This one is a bit tricky. Physically speaking, in-verse, death hax is used pretty much completely alongside regular skills. While I'd agree on the point that he would use it against an opponent with ridiculously superior durability, there otherwise isn't much reason to assume he would. After all, almost everything major he fights has some level of resistance to his death hax, so he wouldn't suddenly know that it would always work against any other opponent. So, while Ren using it is undeniably a valid and entirely plausible win-con, it probably shouldn't be assumed he'd use it as much as it's been stated before.

> As soon as Joker feels a foe trying to attack him he switches his skills to become immune to the attack

Physically speaking, Persona users only need to think to switch their Personas. We can see this quite easily as far back as Persona 3. Technically, Ren is usually depicted as doing a "dramatic twirl" of some kind when he switches his Persona, though this is almost certainly only for stylistic effect as there's no real basis given for why he'd actually need to do that. besides, this is Persona, let em be stylish Ren being typically unable to do this in gameplay would have more to do with how the combat is turn-based, and as such he's physically unable to move while the enemy is attacking. Though I shouldn't have to explain why that is game mechanics. There is a limit here that doesn't seem to be brought up much though. Ren is explicitly limited in the amount of Personas he can hold at any given time. Off the top of my head, near the beginning of the game, he can only hold around 6 at a time and by the end he can hold around 12. Typically, matches do not assume any prep time or prior knowledge about the opponent unless stated. As such, while it's theoretically possible, the idea that he'd always have the absolute perfect Personas on hand (that is, ones with death hax + ones that resist everything the opponent has + more) isn't a reasonable assumption. Though, it begs the question of how we'd actually rule it otherwise.

> Joker's deathhax working on spiritual beings

I'm honestly kind of uncertain what this is about. Spiritual beings can still be alive in a sense, so I don't understand what the contradiction is on this point. Though I'm likely misinterpreting something.

> What are Joker's standard tactics?; What can be assumed to be his standard tactics?

Joker is, as has been mentioned many times before, an RPG protagonist. He's entirely controlled by the player, and his personality is at least partially a self-insert (with just some intrinsic traits behind him regardless). The main thing that's been brought up in regards to this is that he is shown plenty of times to be a genius. He's also shown to be resourceful and analytical. As such, it at least can be assumed that he'd be smart enough to use his best maneuvers. There are still limits to this, though, as I've mentioned before; his established Persona limit makes it so that his moveset can be varied and versatile, but not unlimited. And a match without established prior knowledge or prep time wouldn't result in him having anything special, at least not necessarily. So it's difficult to say how to approach this issue.
 
Off the top of my head, near the beginning of the game, he can only hold around 6 at a time and by the end he can hold around 12.

Game mechanics, as people like Margaret have access to 13 Personas in Arena and P3P.
 
DarkGrath said:
> Not purely durability-ignoring Hax functioning to the highest displayed degree regardless of the key used:

-snip-
Click to expand...
The difference between Agi and skills like Tetrakarn is that Agi very specifically scales off of the user's Magic stat, which visibly increases over the course of the game, and is representative of the Persona-users getting stronger. Tetrakarn does not scale off of anything, and is completely unchanged from its first appearance compared to its last.

The Tetrakarn that repels Yaldabaoth's attacks is the exact same Tetrakarn that repels Okumura's, so as far as limits go, Tetrakarn's only displayed limit is against the strongest physical attack from the strongest being in the game, which is Low 2-C, regardless of the key being used. This applies to Persona invulnerability/reflection/absorption affinities, as well as both "-karn" spells.
 
Milly Rocking Bandit said:
Off the top of my head, near the beginning of the game, he can only hold around 6 at a time and by the end he can hold around 12.

Game mechanics, as people like Margaret have access to 13 Personas in Arena and P3P.
Click to expand...
Not completely. I imagine it's a detail that could reasonably have been retconned or changed over time, but almost all of the confidant abilities in the game are explained in some way in a way that makes sense in-verse. Gaining more Personas to hold is done by levelling the False Igor confidant, which makes sense, as he has access and full control over the Persona compendium.

It's probably partially game mechanics, but given that things like the Persona compendium even exist in the lore (where the Wild Card users can go to retrieve Personas they've previously discarded as one of the main functions), there must be some kind of limit as to how many he holds at once.
 
Also, using the magic stat as an actual in-verse thing isn't really reasonable. The magic stat, just like plenty of other things, is just an in-game statistic. And even if we accepted it as a rough approximation, the actual damage boost provided by increasing the magic stat isn't something that would suddenly increase a Pixie level spell to Yaldabaoth levels.

They do explicitly get more powerful throughout the game in a way that the game can only really physically communicate through levelling stats, even if that's not really the way it work work in-verse. And it's only when the PT's actually get stronger that they end up using these skills against stronger and stronger opponents. So we can't extrapolate and say that these skills are the same strength the whole time when every other skill demonstrably gets stronger at the same rate they do.
 
Taking stats literally is game mechanics, yes, but stats themselves are a way for the game to communicate that they're getting stronger, as you said. What does it mean, then, when a specific ability does not rely on any stats in order to function? It means that its potency does not change regardless of the strength of the user or the power of the enemy it is being used on. I'll say it again, there is no evidence of Persona's defensive hax being limited by the strength of its user. Thus, logically, its potency is consistent across the entire story.
 
I only really agree with OP in the smurfy hax part. Assuming the defensive hax stays the same potency all through the game would have to be used for alignments too, since they can be used on end-game enemies. Plus, it would end with a lot more than just Persona having Low 2-C hax (1-C attack reflection for everyone in MegaTen?)

Other than that, completely agree with DankGrag.
 
@DarkGrath Thanks for commenting. I'm gonna argue some of the things there to clarify my points but I'm mostly satisfied with what you said.

  • Ailments: I don't think it's clear if you saw the part where targets need to resist those 3 powers to resist Ailments, because you just went over how Ailments have those 3 powers. They do, but then if any Mind Manip user could target beings made of Info would all their targets need to resist Mind & Info Manip to resist its powers? I could make up a ton of examples like those, the answer would be the same to all of them. If those 3 powers need to be resisted to resist Ailments then could you explain why?
  • Switching his skills: What you said that adds more to what others said on the matter in this thread, but my problem on it remains the same
Eficiente said:
This is not Joker switching to something that would make him resist something better to figure out a better strategy, he's being claimed to be unable to be hit or harmed by anything because he will always switch to something that would allow him that despite never showing anything like it. That's like a PKMN trainer switching to have immunities everytime a foe is about or is using any attack. Should the anime and manga of PKMN not exist, would anyone claim this to be done?
Dragonmasterxyz said:
Regarding the fouth point, yes, that's literally a primary mechanic of the game. Joker switches Persona's mid battle in order to best counter the abilities of his foes. He sees an opponent attacking him with Fire, he'll switch to a Persona who repels, resists or nulls fire. Same for other abilities. This is not outlandish whatsoever.
Click to expand...
When you put it like that I absolutely agree with it. I would like to see you claim it like they do tho, Joker being untouchable and switching at the exact moment he sees something he doesn't like to be immune, as in him doing it before a foe may even finish its own attack, or before it may even start. Then if the foe aims to use other attack Joker makes himself immune to it too, and so on.
As I see it, and I dare anyone to blame me for it, what Joker does is a strategy. He aims for the most optimum result with the most advantageous things going for him, not all of them nor perfection. He may switch to be immune to fire after being hit by it, or not, maybe his current strategy doesn't need to be changed. The latter sentence is just insanity to what was claimed Joker does.
Click to expand...
  • Joker's standard tactics: As before, I agree to all of it, just not to the way it portrayed to make Joker that pragmatic on relation to his abilities. Because to not be so would still make him the genius he is with all his feats and characteristics.
 
I find that odd as well. With Sleep/Forget/Hunger/Dizzy it kinda works because I believe those are considered physical ailments, thus they affect the body, thus needing either NPI or Info Manip to get through. However, this doesn't apply to psychological ailments at all.

Edit: Joker's ailments can affect robots without minds or souls. Unless something else comes up, Joker appears to have Info Manip.

As far as Repel, Null, Absorb, etc are concerned, I agree with Hl3 or bust. If Joker with a 7-B Persona can repel/null/absorb Cognitive Wakaba's Sphinx Dive, which he can, Joker with the same Persona should be able to do it to 2-C's like Yaldabaoth's Sword of Judgement, which he can. Forget is another problem entirely since luck (the Persona stat) is a thing. If there's a system in place that works similarly to what luck does, such as fate manip, that should be an effective counter to status ailments like Forget.

Again, agreeing with Hl3 on this one. Couldn't say it better myself.

I mean... Yeah. That's called using the powers of the character. Switching Personas in a situation where it's beneficial is something an above average intelligence character should be able to do. Switching Personas does take a thought, at which point he's still weak to any number of other forms of attack from those resisted/nulled/repelled/absorbed. Third Eye doesn't make him untouchable, but it is still quite the amp to reactions.

This might be info/soul manip. I'm not entirely sure.

Sneak attack, cripple enemies using weaknesses, then finish them off as quickly as possible. At least, that's what the gameplay highly encourages, so this might be the general template for Joker's canon tactics as well.
 
There's no use in doing this rn when nothing's gonna transfer over
 
Idk if that will happen faster than in what we can apply or agree to apply the stuff accepted.
 
We wouldn't be able to apply anything, because due to nothing after the 15th transferring over we'd be linking to a CRT that's ostensibly not concluded.
 
I tried looking into that and the only thing I could find was that was added to Royal

And I'm guessing that you haven't played Royal?
 
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